Thread: God: an unconsious desire to be a kid forever

Do you agree\disagree that religion is a mental projection of a wish to have a strong caring parent? And why.

This is my opinion, I'm not entirely athiest -

As a popular anti-relgious phrase goes, 'Religion stops people thinking for themselves'. Although obviously this is not entirely true in a literal sense, what it is trying to say is religion fills in most of the gaps of the unknown, preventing people from asking the ultimate question - why are we here?

In joining a religion, not only have you got answers to questions that you might have, but you get guidelines on how to live and most importantly, OTHER PEOPLE to reinforce that these answers are true.

When we are young we all look to our parents first to receive the answers to our questions. Although most of the time they have absolutely no idea what the answer is, they give us one anyway. Now think about the time in your life when you figured out that your parents dont know the answers to some questions, in fact, in the scheme of the world, they only know what is relative to their existence so far. Now imagine if, instead of figuring this out, everyone that you talked to also looked up to your same parents for advice, and all agreed that they had the answers to everything. You would have no reason to doubt that fact, and when you talk to someone who doesnt agree, you just think that they are ignorant and believe in something false.

Religion is the parents with the answers, and its followers are its eager children. Athiests or mystics (which I tend to call myself) and all non-religious beliefs mostly consist of children who discover that their parents only know what they have found to be true, just like all of the other parents in the world. So, they pursue personal quests to find out the absolute truths for themselves.

Thoughts?

Originally Posted by TheFinalCut

religion fills in most of the gaps of the unknown

So does science! And anything else that you "believe in". It becomes a rigid system of rules and truths that you use to look at the world and to act according to it, like a pair of glasses that you wear permanently.
But I do agree, religions give people answers to the "spiritual" kind of questions, if they feel a need to get answers to them. My main concern was why it gives this kind of answers, why the god reminds of human father so much...

In joining a religion, not only have you got answers to questions that you might have, but you get guidelines on how to live and most importantly, OTHER PEOPLE to reinforce that these answers are true.

It's in our nature to want others to think for us and to be unsure when the majority doesn't share our opinions. Maybe it's based on the memory of having parents, too...

think about the time in your life when you figured out that your parents dont know the answers to some questions, in fact, in the scheme of the world, they only know what is relative to their existence so far. Now imagine if, instead of figuring this out, everyone that you talked to also looked up to your same parents for advice, and all agreed that they had the answers to everything. You would have no reason to doubt that fact, and when you talk to someone who doesnt agree, you just think that they are ignorant and believe in something false.

Great example! It really depicts the situation with religion very well. There are no reasons to believe in what you can't check, and yet most people are taught to believe since childhood and prefer to never change or doubt their believes.

Religion is the parents with the answers, and its followers are its eager children. Athiests or mystics (which I tend to call myself) and all non-religious beliefs mostly consist of children who discover that their parents only know what they have found to be true, just like all of the other parents in the world.

I agree with you, very well put Maybe we can add science here, as a type of modern religion with "kids" having no faith in their parents. Although I know it's very arguable, but science is also a system of believes people live according to. For instance, it makes you unable to believe that god exists until it's proven

I agree with you, very well put Maybe we can add science here, as a type of modern religion with "kids" having no faith in their parents. Although I know it's very arguable, but science is also a system of believes people live according to. For instance, it makes you unable to believe that god exists until it's proven

Its fair enough to live by science, but even scientists are beginning to realise that there is another force acting in the world apart from that of the physical. I mean come on, how much evidence do you need?

So does science! And anything else that you "believe in". It becomes a rigid system of rules and truths that you use to look at the world and to act according to it, like a pair of glasses that you wear permanently.
But I do agree, religions give people answers to the "spiritual" kind of questions, if they feel a need to get answers to them. My main concern was why it gives this kind of answers, why the god reminds of human father so much...

Yes, but science actually makes an effort for the truth, no matter what the truth is. If the truth is that there is no God, so be it. If the truth is that the greeks had it right, so be it. But... Unfortunatley science makes no comment on the supernatural. Science looks for what is real, and provable. God is only proven through a unique system of rules implaced by early church leaders to keep him from being disproved by science and common sense. Which is why most scientists ignore "God". He isn't apart of science.

And anything else that you "believe in". It becomes a rigid system of rules and truths that you use to look at the world and to act according to it, like a pair of glasses that you wear permanently.

Oh, and you don't "believe" in science. Either you acknowlege it, or you don't. It isn't a system of beliefs that takes faith, it is a system of truths that requires proof. Therefore, it ISN'T a religion .

Originally Posted by TheFinalCut

Its fair enough to live by science, but even scientists are beginning to realise that there is another force acting in the world apart from that of the physical. I mean come on, how much evidence do you need?

Well, quantum physics sort of proved that there's a higher being. But there's no physical evidence, only thoughts and conclusions, so it's hard to talk about it and it can't be a 100% proof froma scientific view.

Can I express curiosity and ask what exactly are your views? You said you were a mystic, I'm very interested to hear what you're studying or probably practicing. That's a broad term, after all.

Originally Posted by Seismosaur

Yes, but science actually makes an effort for the truth, no matter what the truth is.

The same can be said about religion. Or rather, spiritual practices. They're an effort to discover the truth. I'm not talking abot rigid systems like Christianity, but more of Taoism and alike things where people do actively meditate and "practice" in other ways. There's a frame of certain rules of how to search, and there's striving to learn the truth.
As for religious people who only go to Church and abide a few rules, surely they aren't striving for truth, but it's not the fault of religion, but the fault of how it is taught to you by others.
I'm aware that some religions demand you to "believe" without proof, but it must be just an interpretation made later by those who taught others. Man always seeks the truth, whether by calculations or by spiritual practices, it's only natural to do it. Stifling this search has probably been done by the official Churches that didn't want people to seek truth, who only wanted to impose rules on people and use them as means of control. It makes a lot of sense, since Church had often been directly connected with the government.

God is only proven through a unique system of rules implaced by early church leaders to keep him from being disproved by science and common sense.

It could be impossible to prove that god exists, or any supernatural being, not only because they doesn't, but because the modern scientific methods aren't ideal!
Not just technically not ideal. But because of the attitude. For instance, let's say somebody saw god. Would science actually believe it, even if a few trusted scientists saw god? No. They'd search for explanations, like a collective hallucination...
Science as it is today is simply not evolved enough to investigate such things, unfortunately.

Which is why most scientists ignore "God". He isn't apart of science.

This is true only for modern scientists.

Originally Posted by Seismosaur

Oh, and you don't "believe" in science. Either you acknowlege it, or you don't. It isn't a system of beliefs that takes faith, it is a system of truths that requires proof. Therefore, it ISN'T a religion .

No, no, I wasn't saying that science is religion! It's not. I was talking of different views of life that become rigid and prevent one from changing them. The scientific attitude is one way to look at the world, the spiritual is another, but they're both ways to look at the world which became separated not that long ago. And note how science changes: at one time they thought that Earth is the center of the Universe. It was their belief, although it was considered to be science. Religion and science overlapped in past more than they do now.
In Ancient Greece and Rome where math originated the same people who created geometry that we use today used to talk about gods (and later only one god) and explain his essence with numbers. They actually thought that this world is an illusion, and that behind the solid objects there are numbers! They discovered how numbers make music (if you can play piano or something else you know that music is thought-out and drawn mathematically, it can be fully explained by logic). But the same people considred numbers sacred, a number 1 was the beginning of all...
Science and religion became fully separated only a few centuries ago, and at that time philosophy stopped talking about God and turned to materialism and materialistic logic.
What you say about science is only what modern science says about itself :-) Things can turn out just as undiscovered like in past time, and probably science will turn back to spiritual things in future. So it's a system of believes, too, in science you believe in what the current scientific views dictate you.

Originally Posted by Intended

The same can be said about religion. Or rather, spiritual practices. They're an effort to discover the truth. I'm not talking abot rigid systems like Christianity, but more of Taoism and alike things where people do actively meditate and "practice" in other ways. There's a frame of certain rules of how to search, and there's striving to learn the truth.
As for religious people who only go to Church and abide a few rules, surely they aren't striving for truth, but it's not the fault of religion, but the fault of how it is taught to you by others.
I'm aware that some religions demand you to "believe" without proof, but it must be just an interpretation made later by those who taught others. Man always seeks the truth, whether by calculations or by spiritual practices, it's only natural to do it. Stifling this search has probably been done by the official Churches that didn't want people to seek truth, who only wanted to impose rules on people and use them as means of control. It makes a lot of sense, since Church had often been directly connected with the government.

Hmm... I've never studied Toaism. But what i mean was. If you go into a modern church, let's say... A Methodist. So, you walk in there, and you read the bible for a bit, but then something strikes you that doesn't make sense. So what do you do? You go to the reveren (sp?). If you try to ask him why something doesn't make sense/contradicts itself, etc. The common answer you'll get is a kind request to leave.

It could be impossible to prove that god exists, or any supernatural being, not only because they doesn't, but because the modern scientific methods aren't ideal!
Not just technically not ideal. But because of the attitude. For instance, let's say somebody saw god. Would science actually believe it, even if a few trusted scientists saw god? No. They'd search for explanations, like a collective hallucination...
Science as it is today is simply not evolved enough to investigate such things, unfortunately.

Yes, but if there was a mountain of plausible evidence against him, the christians could merley say it was "Placed here by god to test our faith" therefore making the evidence void to them. Very silly, right?

This is true only for modern scientists.

Mabey.

No, no, I wasn't saying that science is religion! It's not. I was talking of different views of life that become rigid and prevent one from changing them. The scientific attitude is one way to look at the world, the spiritual is another, but they're both ways to look at the world which became separated not that long ago. And note how science changes: at one time they thought that Earth is the center of the Universe. It was their belief, although it was considered to be science. Religion and science overlapped in past more than they do now.
In Ancient Greece and Rome where math originated the same people who created geometry that we use today used to talk about gods (and later only one god) and explain his essence with numbers. They actually thought that this world is an illusion, and that behind the solid objects there are numbers! They discovered how numbers make music (if you can play piano or something else you know that music is thought-out and drawn mathematically, it can be fully explained by logic). But the same people considred numbers sacred, a number 1 was the beginning of all...
Science and religion became fully separated only a few centuries ago, and at that time philosophy stopped talking about God and turned to materialism and materialistic logic.
What you say about science is only what modern science says about itself :-) Things can turn out just as undiscovered like in past time, and probably science will turn back to spiritual things in future. So it's a system of believes, too, in science you believe in what the current scientific views dictate you.

Interesting, i didn't know that about the Greeks.

All of the arguments here against the rationality of religion are your own assumptions of what religious people would say to your questions, instead of valid responses. You can put words in people's mouthes and then blame them for what you've told them they would say but you accomplish nothing by doing this. All you prove is that it is you that is unwilling to even hear what your opposition has to say; and instead will just assume you already know what they would say.

No... That's because i've been there, done that, and got the t-shirt 8). I've asked plenty of questions about it to the pastor's face, and i either got avoided, or he asked me to leave.

Originally Posted by Intended

Well, quantum physics sort of proved that there's a higher being. But there's no physical evidence, only thoughts and conclusions, so it's hard to talk about it and it can't be a 100% proof froma scientific view.

Can I express curiosity and ask what exactly are your views? You said you were a mystic, I'm very interested to hear what you're studying or probably practicing. That's a broad term, after all.

I'm not studying it in an institution as such, and I do take everything with a grain of salt, but in my own personal search for knowledge the theories that I have taken on board seem to best fit the description of modern mysticism (I'll use one taken from wikipedia -

Mysticism: the pursuit of achieving communion or identity with, or conscious awareness of, ultimate reality, the divine, spiritual truth, or God through direct experience, intuition, or insight; and the belief that such experience is one's destiny, purpose, or an important source of knowledge, understanding, and wisdom. Traditions may include a belief in the literal existence of dimensional realities beyond empirical perception, or a belief that a true human perception of the world transcends logical reasoning or intellectual comprehension.

I have found that this seems to best describes the theories I have welded together so far.

Don't get me wrong, I'm just an average guy with a job who goes to uni, but there has to be an absolute answer to why we exist and im damn well going to find it

Originally Posted by Seismosaur

No... That's because i've been there, done that, and got the t-shirt 8). I've asked plenty of questions about it to the pastor's face, and i either got avoided, or he asked me to leave.

That's strange, what kind of question did you ask that you were told to leave? ? Could you give examples?

The way religion is today really wrong, though. They don't let you search for truths and blame you if you doubt something. I guess it's because they forced moderm wide-spread religion by force on most peoples who were heathens before, so they had to force them to never doubt and comply to all rules.
How do they expect new prophets to appear if you aren't allowed to search for truths...

Originally Posted by TheFinalCut

in my own personal search for knowledge the theories that I have taken on board seem to best fit the description of modern mysticism (I'll use one taken from wikipedia

That's a broad description. But ok, I'm not pressing you to get secrets and theories

haha I know, I just said it's the closest description I can find to describe my beliefs

And by beliefs I mean things I have taken from reading all sorts of science, philosophical and metaphysical books, and my direct experiences with the metaphysical i.e channelling, energy work etc

i have been asked to leave a Christian conversion group in my school no less. So i will give examples there.

It was designed, since i am at a religious school, to convert non religious kids and to try and make the Muslim kids turn more Christian.

The room filled up since my friends like my religious debates. Anyway there were four strong Christians in my class doing most of the speaking( so they could relate to us), then there was a Christian youth group leader to guide them.

I was asking them personal questions first, like why exactly they think Christianity is right and not Hinduism or Islam, they said because the Christian God is a "personal" God where as the others are not.

I asked what suddenly made them " see the light", three had been brought up Christian, one told me of some miracle involving a word being spelt with fire( sounded more devilish to me).

Then i went on to ask how the Bible is truly the word of God, as it has been written and edited my man, some with certain aims that may not have been religious.

Then i went to discuss miracles, how im-perfect the human body is etc

I ended up talking about how God would teach so much hate in his book and so why he would send so many of his children to burn forever, a sick creation. Basically after it was more of a one on one with me and this youth leader who became quite angry, it ended up with " If your just going to ignore all the wonders God does for you every day then there's no point being in this room", so i left saying " Yes and if you are going to sit there believing you were moulded by some perfect, all loving creature, who sends all those who don't follow him to Hell and the only way to save our selfs to to worship him. Because a man and women in a garden ate en evil apple from a magic tree because a talking snake told them to, and you call me ignorant at every step. Then theres no point me being here is there."

Don't worry, i got a room of cheers! W0000t!:p

Very nice
Although it would seem those guys weren't very well prepared and couldn't defend themselves. But then again, most of them are like that

well it's hard to defend yourself because there are so many questions i could ask. But it is the same for them, if they had thought of very intelligent questions, me as a 16yr old who doesn't have a degree in biology and all that to answer scientifically, then they could have got silent response from me. So it depends how good the debaters are. I would have liked more time to prepare, because some of the bible quotes i used, i couldn't remember the exact location of.