Chance Or Intelligence ?

**^R^ed-$py** · 07-26-2007 06:13 PM

Chance Or Intelligence ?
I posted this thread because the people didnt understood what i wanted to say in the FATE thread .
This Universe indeed displays a remarkable vista of order and consistency.

We can observe, for example, the great regularity with which the celestial bodies follow precise orbits, and marvel at the way in which water from the seas is brought to the land by wind-driven clouds, which are in turn formed by the evaporation of water: without this replenishment, life would be impossible.

We are also amazed by the migration patterns of many species, including newborn eels that trek through thousands of miles of ocean, to nestle in their own local streams, and of bees, who use sunlight for navigation in their quest for nectar. We may ponder as to why all living things exist in pairs, and contemplate on the optimality of the processes which comprise the whole universe. Even incredibly minute changes would disrupt the balances in nature.

After all, had the earth’s orbit been slightly offset in either direction, water and the resulting forms of life would not have emerged. In fact, we observe great unity in the laws of the cosmos; through the spectrum of life and non-life ranging from the microcosmic subatomic particles to the macrocosmic expanse of the universe itself, integration is manifested on every level.

Reflection may lead us to pertinent questions: Could such encompassing order have arisen purely by unintentional accident? Or could there be an intelligent Originator to this spectacular array of living and non-living forms -a designer that may have developed them through processes which have yet to be fully determined? What conclusions are evidential?

Is it probable that all the letters on this page unscrambled themselves by
chance to form these meaningful and structured sentences? How then, could a human being - with ears, eyes and a mind - have been formed by chance? Is it credible that such a vast universe with inestimable billions of galaxies could have evolved by accident? Does not the integration and complexity of a single cell far exceed that of a mere piece of paper with some intelligible writing on it, let alone this universe and all that it contains? (Especially since the universe also contains this piece of paper..!)

We know that we are not the cause of ourselves, for embryonic development is organized and directed in stages under natural laws. But directed by what and by whose laws? Chance? Or Intelligence? What about a multiplicity of infinite beings? Could such have been responsible for this cosmological fabrication?

Would not the resulting state of this universe have then been disordered and chaotic due to the conflicting commands of these infinitely powerful entities, who would have been trying to accede to the throne of authority in rivalry?

Indeed, in such a regime, we would expect to see inconsistency in the universe as opposed to consistency. Instead of rain, we might conceivably have received a heavy downpour of elephants from the skies. (An umbrella would certainly not be terribly useful in such a universe!) Such a scenario would also give rise to the question: which of the infinite beings came first? And why? On the other hand, if such a multiplicity of infinite beings were in perfect agreement for all time, then there would not be any need for more than one - nor is there any evidence.

If our response to the chance (unintentional creation) and multiplicity
(creation by two or more beings) hypotheses is negative, then our answer has to lie between zero and two. In other words, there can only be one unique governing intelligence - unique by the virtue of having no demigods, intermediaries, mystical incarnate beings, or any other human or nonhuman associates. This vast singular intelligence, then, must have created and developed all living and non-living things, as well as space-time itself, and must therefore be independent of it.

If this is our conclusion, then it means that the myriad forms of matter and energy as well as the physiological structure of the human being must be subject to the natural laws of this singular and independent governing intelligence.

In addition to this involuntary physiological dependence of human beings to the prescribed natural laws, we are also endowed with a mind which has the capacity to voluntarily question and reason. A reasoning person would be naturally drawn to the logical conclusion of the existence of a unique originator, and therefore of a meaningful purpose to this existence. Such a person would live with this awareness, in peace with himself or herself and the rest of nature. Indeed reasoning people live, and have been living throughout the ages in all parts of the world. They can be found dwelling in the midst of exuberant jungles or in our large, populous and crowded cities. What would distinguish such individuals would be the employment of reason as a foundation for life. If such a people are to be given a name which linguistically denotes 'voluntary peaceful
submission' to this unique Intelligence, and which includes all of these
attributes, a suitable term in one language would be the word Muslim.

**Sornaensis** · 07-26-2007 07:27 PM

The universe happened by chance... From OUR perspective, but, since we cannot concieve of the maths, and physics that could have caused this, we came up with a creator, case-in-point, GOD DOESN'T EXIST, GET OVER YOURSELF. Jesus, POST YOUR OWN QUESTIONS. This is a silly argument that most scientists wouldn't even LOOK at, much less actually read. Where the HELL do you get this BULL SHIT?

**skysaw** · 07-26-2007 07:34 PM

To the OP:

Do any of your opinions come from your own thoughts, or are the all just copied and pasted from other sources without comment? Such as from here: http://www.msa-ubc.org/about.htm

**RooJ** · 07-26-2007 07:35 PM

Im honestly shocked that a statement like the following is used as evidence for a god:

Is it probable that all the letters on this page unscrambled themselves by chance to form these meaningful and structured sentences? How then, could a human being - with ears, eyes and a mind - have been formed by chance?

Do you actually believe that athiests propose that humans suddenly and spontaneously appeared by chance? Do you really think that an analogy can be struck between letters on a webpage and the human body? Do you really have such a limited knowledge of science?

Ahh nevermind, i just realised you simply copied and pasted the entire thing from another website.

I think what you need to do is read both the following thread and page:

http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...ad.php?t=37774

https://notes.utk.edu/Bio/greenberg....Document&Click=

Now if you can explain to me how you can possibly justify the term intelligent design taking these things into consideration ill give you a cookie.

**^R^ed-$py** · 07-26-2007 08:33 PM

Originally Posted by Seismosaur

The universe happened by chance... From OUR perspective, but, since we cannot concieve of the maths, and physics that could have caused this, we came up with a creator, case-in-point, GOD DOESN'T EXIST, GET OVER YOURSELF. Jesus, POST YOUR OWN QUESTIONS. This is a silly argument that most scientists wouldn't even LOOK at, much less actually read. Where the HELL do you get this BULL SHIT?

Ok suppose universe happened by chance ,THEN PROVE IT !!! , if you cant prove it then why you say it happened by chance . I have my own question 2 but its soo compicated i dont know how 2 explain , ill work on it n then ill tell ya OK .

**Sornaensis** · 07-26-2007 08:50 PM

I said from our perspective, for one thing, and another, i said that we can't explain it all out.

**^R^ed-$py** · 07-26-2007 09:01 PM

Originally Posted by RooJ

Now if you can explain to me how you can possibly justify the term intelligent design taking these things into consideration ill give you a cookie.

OK ill try 2 justify the term intelligent 4 ya . Can the balance of gases in the atmosphere be a chance , its is due to them we can take in oxygen . Is the distance between the earth and sun a chance , the earth could be at mercury,s place , we could not have survived because of high temperatures , the earth could have been at jupiter,s place , and the example is same , the earth is in the proprer distance so we can survive . Is sun out there by chance , there could be a super giant planet insted of it , then there would be no light or heat 4 us . Can all this be by chance . There in some one out there who is sustaining all this . I hope the example below will help

Consider this: An archaeologist digs deep into the desert sand and finds a piece of an old clay pot. After his investigations, this archaeologist can tell us - from this little old piece of dusty clay - so much about the civilization that existed thousands of years ago that produced it. He can tell us about the types of ovens, temperatures, and dyes that they worked with, the raw materials that they used, and thus assess the level of their artistic skill and technological ability, etc. All this from a small piece of clay lying in the desert.

• Did this archaeologist ever see the civilization that produced this pot?
• How does he know that it ever existed?

He knows because he saw that the piece of clay was produced by someone who designed it, and shaped it, and had the intelligence to be able to heat it and produce the pot, and not only that, they also had the ability to color it and make it look beautiful

To the archaeologist the existence and intricacy of the piece of pottery is conclusive proof of the existence, intelligence and ability of the people who made it.

Look around you, at the beautiful sunset on a summer evening, at the moon and the stars on a cloudless night, at the water that you drink, at the trees and how they grow from tiny seeds. Think about yourself, your eyes with which you see, your ears with which you hear, your tongues with which you taste and talk, your hands and your feet, your heart and your brain. Consider how these things are so complex in themselves yet work together in such perfect harmony.

From the movement of the galaxies to the complexities of the interaction of molecules, from the dynamics of eco-systems to the intricacies of DNA, all lead to the obvious fact of the existence of the great wisdom, knowledge and power that allows our Universe to exist and function.
To any perceptive human being the existence and intricacy of creation is conclusive proof of the existence, knowledge and wisdom of the One who creates, organizes and sustains it.

Most people naturally recognize the existence of the Creator, and we find reference to the Creator in all cultures and religions. Even the atheists, communists and (disbelieving) scientists cannot avoid this reality, but avoid the term 'creator', for phrases like 'Mother Nature' and 'the amazing way nature has designed...'

How strange in the face of this, that many today reject the belief in the existence of the Creator. Perhaps this is due more to fashion and the desire to justify a materialistic attitude to life rather than real observation and comprehension of reality.

Something stranger still (and perhaps another reason for the trend to deny the Creator), are those who claim that a man, or men, who walked on the earth, breathed air, who had bodies and souls subject to the Laws of the Universe, are the Creator, or manifestations of the Self-Subsistent One.

This is of course a complete contradiction in terms. Something cannot be the Creator and created (the creation) at the same time (simultaneously), sustaining on air, food and drink and being self-sufficient, being temporary and eternal.

We were created from a drop of despised fluid, in which was a microscopic sperm, which fertilized a microscopic egg and we grew in our mother's womb in stages predetermined, over which we had no control. We came from our mother's womb, urinating and defecating, needing constant attention and care. Without food we will die, without air we will die ... and then such a one is God?

**ThePhobiaViewed** · 07-26-2007 09:02 PM

I will try to type this as I dodge the flames

.

Anyway this reminds me of a story from a book I have.

Sir Isaac Newton had an exact miniature replica of the solar system with the all cogs and gears perfect to make all the planets revolve correctly. One day he had a friend who did not believe in creation over and his friend was amazed by how perfect and intricate it was so he asked Newton who made the amazing thing for him. Without looking up Newton replied "nobody". His friend said "nobody?". Newton said "I said nobody. All of these balls and cogs and belts and gears just happened to come together, and wonder of wonders, by chance they began revolving in their set orbits and with perfect timing." End of story

Anyway I believe that there was a higher intelligence but no I can't prove it so don't try to make me and don't try to convert me. You can't prove it either way. Anyway go ahead as you were

.

**Sornaensis** · 07-26-2007 09:03 PM

Originally Posted by ^R^ed-$py

OK ill try 2 justify the term intelligent 4 ya . Can the balance of gases in the atmosphere be a chance , its is due to them we can take in oxygen . Is the distance between the earth and sun a chance , the earth could be at mercury,s place , we could not have survived because of high temperatures , the earth could have been at jupiter,s place , and the example is same , the earth is in the proprer distance so we can survive . Is sun out there by chance , there could be a super giant planet insted of it , then there would be no light or heat 4 us . Can all this be by chance . There in some one out there who is sustaining all this . I hope the example below will help

Consider this: An archaeologist digs deep into the desert sand and finds a piece of an old clay pot. After his investigations, this archaeologist can tell us - from this little old piece of dusty clay - so much about the civilization that existed thousands of years ago that produced it. He can tell us about the types of ovens, temperatures, and dyes that they worked with, the raw materials that they used, and thus assess the level of their artistic skill and technological ability, etc. All this from a small piece of clay lying in the desert.

• Did this archaeologist ever see the civilization that produced this pot?
• How does he know that it ever existed?

He knows because he saw that the piece of clay was produced by someone who designed it, and shaped it, and had the intelligence to be able to heat it and produce the pot, and not only that, they also had the ability to color it and make it look beautiful

To the archaeologist the existence and intricacy of the piece of pottery is conclusive proof of the existence, intelligence and ability of the people who made it.

Look around you, at the beautiful sunset on a summer evening, at the moon and the stars on a cloudless night, at the water that you drink, at the trees and how they grow from tiny seeds. Think about yourself, your eyes with which you see, your ears with which you hear, your tongues with which you taste and talk, your hands and your feet, your heart and your brain. Consider how these things are so complex in themselves yet work together in such perfect harmony.

From the movement of the galaxies to the complexities of the interaction of molecules, from the dynamics of eco-systems to the intricacies of DNA, all lead to the obvious fact of the existence of the great wisdom, knowledge and power that allows our Universe to exist and function.
To any perceptive human being the existence and intricacy of creation is conclusive proof of the existence, knowledge and wisdom of the One who creates, organizes and sustains it.

Most people naturally recognize the existence of the Creator, and we find reference to the Creator in all cultures and religions. Even the atheists, communists and (disbelieving) scientists cannot avoid this reality, but avoid the term 'creator', for phrases like 'Mother Nature' and 'the amazing way nature has designed...'

How strange in the face of this, that many today reject the belief in the existence of the Creator. Perhaps this is due more to fashion and the desire to justify a materialistic attitude to life rather than real observation and comprehension of reality.

Something stranger still (and perhaps another reason for the trend to deny the Creator), are those who claim that a man, or men, who walked on the earth, breathed air, who had bodies and souls subject to the Laws of the Universe, are the Creator, or manifestations of the Self-Subsistent One.
This is of course a complete contradiction in terms. Something cannot be the Creator and created (the creation) at the same time (simultaneously), sustaining on air, food and drink and being self-sufficient, being temporary and eternal.

We were created from a drop of despised fluid, in which was a microscopic sperm, which fertilized a microscopic egg and we grew in our mother's womb in stages predetermined, over which we had no control. We came from our mother's womb, urinating and defecating, needing constant attention and care. Without food we will die, without air we will die ... and then such a one is God?

Dude, all of that is possible without a crerator. I mean, we are here? Right? That's proof in itself.

**RooJ** · 07-27-2007 12:21 AM

^R^ed-$py, I appreciate your explanation.

It certainly is an amazing universe we live in, and a puzzling one at that. As you're aware i disagree that a creator is necessary. I think comparing humans to a peice of clay is inadequate in this situation, i refer you again to the fact that humans didn't just suddenly appear one day in athiests eyes.

A common theme seems to crop up when discussing creation, and that is the theist always seems to jump to conclusions based on the overwhelming complexities of the universe rather than the actual data we gather. This is in contrast to those that follow science who simply use the information we currently have to best hypothesize on our beginning. Nearly everything else you posted relating to how beautiful everything is doesn't really add any evidence to the debate, its pretty much like saying "Wow, i certainly can't explain how it could be here without a designer so there must be one!".
Its the same mindframe that had people guessing that the world was flat, its not until more information comes along that we have to update our theories, but sadly most religions are stale and stubborn.

As far as how everything is in the right place to create life, well i sure hope it is, if it wasn't we wouldnt be here discussing it. Scientists recently found a planet similar to earth in orbit of a distant sun:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/liv...icle_id=450467

If humans had evolved on that planet we may still be having this same debate, and i might be posting a link to an article about a different distant planet found (earth). Im sure we'll continue to find many many planets around our galaxy alone capable of harboring life, will you still be saying that the perfection of earth is unique in its ability to support life when that time comes?

**RooJ** · 07-27-2007 12:26 AM

Sir Isaac Newton had an exact miniature replica of the solar system with the all cogs and gears perfect to make all the planets revolve correctly. One day he had a friend who did not believe in creation over and his friend was amazed by how perfect and intricate it was so he asked Newton who made the amazing thing for him. Without looking up Newton replied "nobody". His friend said "nobody?". Newton said "I said nobody. All of these balls and cogs and belts and gears just happened to come together, and wonder of wonders, by chance they began revolving in their set orbits and with perfect timing." End of story

Nice story, although comparing a model of the solar system to the actual solar system doesnt really warrant a reply ill just add that science has gone along way in describing how the solar system actually came together. It certainly wasnt perfect and it didn't require cogs or anything else designed :p.

**skysaw** · 07-27-2007 12:27 AM

Originally Posted by ^R^ed-$py

Consider this: An archaeologist digs deep into the desert...

And what a shocker! Once again, you haven't a single original idea of your own. You just copied and pasted everything from here: http://www.themodernreligion.com/basic/isthereagod.htm

How about telling us something YOU think?

**ThePhobiaViewed** · 07-27-2007 02:52 PM

Originally Posted by RooJ

Nice story, although comparing a model of the solar system to the actual solar system doesnt really warrant a reply ill just add that science has gone along way in describing how the solar system actually came together. It certainly wasnt perfect and it didn't require cogs or anything else designed :p.

It was in a Christian book I have for sermon help I guess. There are different subjects and then they have stories and quotes that go with them. This was under creation. I know that theres a big difference between putting a model together and the real thing (gravity maybe?). I just thought it was a good comeback and shows how sarcastic Newton was.

**^R^ed-$py** · 07-27-2007 02:53 PM

Originally Posted by skysaw

And what a shocker! Once again, you haven't a single original idea of your own. You just copied and pasted everything from here: http://www.themodernreligion.com/basic/isthereagod.htm

How about telling us something YOU think?

But the first paragraph waz my idea .

**wendylove** · 07-27-2007 04:15 PM

But the first paragraph waz my idea .

We can observe, for example, the great regularity with which the celestial bodies follow precise orbits, and marvel at the way in which water from the seas is brought to the land by wind-driven clouds, which are in turn formed by the evaporation of water: without this replenishment, life would be impossible.

Their are thousands of celestial bodies that follow orbits, it stupid to say were special. Again celestial bodies have been worked out by cosmologist and it doesn't involve any god. Evaporation is caused by the sun and have a planet full of water is not a big deal. So what we have water, which is a key part of organism, again the most abundent element in the universe is hydrogen(helium or iron?). Now if you done chemistry you would know the formula for water is H20.

Everything you have copied has been debunked various times.

**Sornaensis** · 07-27-2007 04:38 PM

Originally Posted by wendylove

Their are thousands of celestial bodies that follow orbits, it stupid to say were special. Again celestial bodies have been worked out by cosmologist and it doesn't involve any god. Evaporation is caused by the sun and have a planet full of water is not a big deal. So what we have water, which is a key part of organism, again the most abundent element in the universe is hydrogen(helium or iron?). Now if you done chemistry you would know the formula for water is H20.

Everything you have copied has been debunked various times.

^ Exactly, wendy.

It has been proven that life can emerge in the following substances:

Methane (Liquid & gas)

Hydrogen & liquid hydrogen

Nitrogen & liquid nitrogen

Water (That is, H₂O)

Sulfuric acid

Helium (liquid & gas)

&

Amonium & amonium nitrate (liquid form)

It is mere chance that life on earth emerged from water, and there are suspicions to life on jupiter's moons, and past life on mars. So in stating "The earth was lucky it wasn't to close, or too far away = need of creator" is ludicrous. Life is adaptable. But IF the earth WERE to move towards the sun NOW, MOST life would be extinguished, but, that is not to say it would end all life. And vise-versa with pushing away.

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