Thread: Creationists, i'm confused.

Like I said, the only time I have ever seen it go past this point was when Jeremysr talked about getting lemonade. That didn't tell me anything about the reasoning involved in the intelligent design argument. It only told me why he thinks God exists.

That's hardly really my main reason for believing in God, but I guess it must have been the only thing I said that was actual evidence to you?

Originally Posted by Jeremysr

That's hardly really my main reason for believing in God, but I guess it must have been the only thing I said that was actual evidence to you?

Jeremy, you already said that, and you are furthering my point that this discussion goes almost nowhere past your lemonade point. Your lemonade point in fact was your answer to my question of what the next level of the theist side in this discussion is. I had to ask you repeatedly, like I am doing now, and you finally addressed it by saying your mother brought you lemonade after you prayed for it. I said in my last post that I did not see it as evidence. You said it was evidence. I didn't.

Why is your point that the lemonade is not your main reason for believing all you have to say about what I said in my last post? I keep asking for what the next level of the theist side of the argument is, and that is the most important thing I keep mentioning. Instead of answering that, you throw out just a footnote point. Stop playing dodgeball. Talk to me.

It looks like the argument really does stop there. Or does it? If it does, then the intelligent design argument loses the debate. I want to see what the theists can do because I would love the thrill of seeing that the theists are not really in checkmate. I really want to know what move can be made. It would probably be the most educating point I have ever come across in this forum.

Well, this world is physical. If there was no God how can something concrete just come out of nowhere? How can the matter just suddenly appear and what are the chances of everything in the earth and universe forming so perfectly exact to contain life? If the sun was just the most slightest bit away from the earth we would freeze to death, if it was the slightest bit closer, we would burn to death. There are many other examples that show how carefully put in place our planet is.
God is spiritual and is not bound by time, which we cant comprehend since we cant comprehend the begginning of time. Some things our limited minds can't concieve.

Why is everything so intricately made, all with design if there was no designer?

Why is there so many laws such as the law of gravity if there was no lawgiver?

How can so much beauty and pleasure come from something impersonal? We didnt need to be made with the ability to taste pleasurable foods, the ability to see stunning colors, the ability to dream and exercise our free will.

If God didnt create everything, why have people since the begginning of time had this need for worship as if a 'god gene' is built into them?
Why are we the only species who seem to have built in us the desire to keep living? Why do we have a set of moral codes built into us---our conscience?

Why are humans so profoundly distressed by death? Why do we dream of living forever? And why do we constantly search for a meaning to life, a purpose?

Lonewolf, you asked a ton of questions, all of which have legitimate scientific answers that have been covered in this forum. Even if they didn't, they could be explained by a spirit or a superman or something that did not create the universe itself but did manipulate a few parts of it. You did not take the discussion to the next level. Did you read the rest of the thread? We arrived at the level where it was expressed that that which is at the root of the matter and time in this universe could be a scientific law or set of scientific laws. I am asking why that principle has to be God if that God does not need a designer. What argument can be made in regard to that specifically?

Originally Posted by Lonewolf

Well, this world is physical. If there was no God how can something concrete just come out of nowhere?

Your answer to this question is God. Why must the answer be a conscious being with limitless powers? Conscious beings are no more capable of creating something from nothing than unconscious beings.

what are the chances of everything in the earth and universe forming so perfectly exact to contain life? If the sun was just the most slightest bit away from the earth we would freeze to death, if it was the slightest bit closer, we would burn to death. There are many other examples that show how carefully put in place our planet is.

Earth was adapted to suit life?

I think you'll find the much more reasonable explanation is that life adapted to suit Earth.

God is spiritual and is not bound by time, which we cant comprehend since we cant comprehend the begginning of time. Some things our limited minds can't concieve.

True, there are some things we cannot comprehend. Perhaps you cannot comprehend a timeless cause which is not, for some hitherto unstated reason, conscious?

Why is everything so intricately made, all with design if there was no designer?

I don't expect anybody but an atheist to be able to comprehend why the universe is beautiful enough as it is without a conscious causer.

Why is there so many laws such as the law of gravity if there was no lawgiver?

This doesn't seem like a proper question to me. I wasn't aware that laws required conscious creators of those laws.

How can so much beauty and pleasure come from something impersonal? We didnt need to be made with the ability to taste pleasurable foods, the ability to see stunning colors, the ability to dream and exercise our free will.

It certainly had evolutionary advantages. But it is a beautiful reality, no doubt. But since when is a conscious creator a prerequisite for beauty?

If God didnt create everything, why have people since the begginning of time had this need for worship as if a 'god gene' is built into them?
Why are we the only species who seem to have built in us the desire to keep living? Why do we have a set of moral codes built into us---our conscience?

Why are humans so profoundly distressed by death? Why do we dream of living forever? And why do we constantly search for a meaning to life, a purpose?

All of this answers itself really.

Originally Posted by Lonewolf

If the sun was just the most slightest bit away from the earth we would freeze to death, if it was the slightest bit closer, we would burn to death. There are many other examples that show how carefully put in place our planet is.

Since someone else took care of the other points of your arguement, I suppose I will take this one.

Do you know how many millions of planets DON'T have life? Lol. The odds were pretty DAMN good that atleast one of them would have life on it eventually =). You can not say that our planet is special because it has life silly, because there are SO MANY that don't.

I know that there are theories out there. I ask the questions as do many humans who are always seeking for an answer, they are very different from animals who don't wonder about the meaning of life. And yes, I know you may in turn say that creation is a theory. It's just that, for me, I cannot put my trust in science. That is not to say I don't believe in science, of course not. My belief in creation and science do not contradict one another. But science have been proven wrong in the past with several of their theories. I believe in creation for several reasons:

1. My family has personally experienced miracles that couldn't possible be continuous coincidence.

2. I believe in the bible because prophecies have been proven true and history and archeology have supported it.

3. the creation of the human mind and awareness and feeling to me is too amazing to be created by a mindless object

Albert Einstein, the smartest man in the world felt compelled to believe in some kind of God. To quote him:

The Encyclopedia Britannica said that: "Firmly denying atheism, Einstein expressed a belief in "Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the harmony of what exists."

Another quote from him is: "I want to know how God created this world, I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know His thoughts, the rest are details."
When the solution is simple, God is answering.
--Albert Einstein

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.
--Albert Einstein

I have also read countless quotes of scientists who expressed doubt toward evolution and even those who agree with evolution do too, which just causes me to wonder.

There is also the question of things science can't explain such as paranormal things and "spirits" that people claim to see.

And if everything was just created out of unconscious material that would mean we really have no purpose in life and everything is basically meaningless in the end. But I believe the world and existence is very rich in meaning.

Evolution and Creation both require faith. But again on the prophecy thing, that is one thing I find hard to ignore. I choose to believe 'God' rather than 'man'. I know that you don't believe in God and therefore will probably see that reasoning as invalid, but again it is something that you have to experience.
I prefer studying science, the bible and history to just musing over possible theories or trusting everything science says. They are compatible with each other if you really study them.

Lonewolf, this thread is about the intelligent design argument. Please talk head on about this specifically since no other theist will.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Lonewolf, you asked a ton of questions, all of which have legitimate scientific answers that have been covered in this forum. Even if they didn't, they could be explained by a spirit or a superman or something that did not create the universe itself but did manipulate a few parts of it. You did not take the discussion to the next level. Did you read the rest of the thread? We arrived at the level where it was expressed that that which is at the root of the matter and time in this universe could be a scientific law or set of scientific laws. I am asking why that principle has to be God if that God does not need a designer. What argument can be made in regard to that specifically?

Anything within the field of paranormal can be easily explained by the fact that those who experience it are either
A, fools who don't understand what is really happening.
B, insane, there are plenty of people who have hallucinations, infact there is a specific desease that causes problems to have "visions" that result in imagery smell, and other senses.
C, Liars, lots of people want attention =)


Anyway, this quote is where we are in the discussion at the moment. (basically the main point of Universals self quote)

Originally Posted by universal mind

We arrived at the level where it was expressed that that which is at the root of the matter and time in this universe could be a scientific law or set of scientific laws. I am asking why that principle has to be God if that God does not need a designer

1. Please ignore slight spelling errors as I usually type like a maniac.

2. Recognize I am coming into this conversation late so I might backtrack a little.

The problem with Creationism VS. Astro-Physics and Biological evolution is quite simple. Creationism already has an answer. The creationists argument is that "according to the bible God created the heavens and the earth and in seven days created everything that was on earth." The root of this logic is flawed because they can't read their bible metaphorically, and they don't even understand the history of Genesis. These thoughts of a literal six day creation come from literal reading of the texts. However even the word "day" is a mistranslation, something along the lines of "age" would be more correct. My point being they simple read it and believe it, therefore they already have an answer. Now they look at science and the world around them and hear about how complex everything is and say "Boy isn't it wonderful how God simply created all this? It is so complex!" But they have absolutely no perception of time, ecosystems, and they simply ignore all the evidence that is around for creation. In addressing Lonewolfs statement that "if we were just a little closer to the sun we would fry and a little farther away we would freeze, look how perfect it is!" Well truth be told the earth did used to fry and the earth has frozen. In fact it is likely that our moon is the result of a sub-planet smashing into the face of our planet. The world hasn't been created as some husbandry for life, life has fought for it's place for hundreds of millions of years. The creationists, since they believe in a literal six day creation, and through genealogies believe the earth is just six thousand years old (most of them anyways). So therefore evolution can't happen. The fact that most animals on land have vertebrae doesn't even strike them as odd, or the fact that we have so many different species and cross-species (duck billed platypus) Of course years of scientific study both of the living and the fossils is refuted with "It shows a common creator." Because remember, they already have the answer for everything.

The next flaw in the creationists argument is that they refute years of scientific study and research, collective knowledge and PROOF with what the bible loosely says in Genesis. But then they begin to pick and choose what is true about science. Because many of them try to use science to prove somehow that the Genesis story is true. This is where you get all the bullshit (excuse my language) You get them practically making stuff up to support a young earth. They have to bend over backwards to come up with this stuff it is hilarious.

So I think I make my point with that, creationists are hard to argue with because they have the answer already, from a book, a really old mis-understood book. And then they try to use science to support their answer. It is sort of the opposite of what science does. Science is looking for the answer, they make theories yes, but these theories are based on observation. Creationists find the answer then scrap together what they can to prove it, it's all backwards. They think it is amazing that nasa can land a probe onto Titan, the moon of saturn which is MILLIONS of miles away. But when they observe a solar system and say how it was made, or how old it is they are wrong. Why are they wrong? Only because the bible says how old the earth is (it doesn't say how old the earth is FYI.

Now that I have said all that, I get to attack the atheists (in all fun of course, I love discussion, don't make this hostile)

You limit yourselves. You limit yourselves by letting naive ignorant bigots represent the ideas of spirituality. For one, I can tell that nobody in this thread TRULY understands what Christianity is about. Before I get marked as a know it all, I can only say I have scratched the surface. Christians tend to get caught up in the ideas such as creationism, the rapture, proving Christ existed (seriously, just go to godtube.com and see what the most viewed stuff is) and in this respect they miss completely what Christ was about. And atheists, I don't blame you for blaming Christianity, it is a joke today. I say all that to say what I am about to which is my opinion, an opinion that I have formulated by letting down all walls, my doubts and my beliefs.

To me, Christianity explains the why of creation. It explains this in very deep ways, and not literal ones. Science, all the amazing things we have found through letting go of ridiculous superstition and just letting ourselves learn is amazing! It is through this I find the how. I believe there is a how to God. If Science keeps advancing and exploring and breaking new ground I think we could eventually "put God under a microscope" so to say and explain, logically what is going on. This is because I find what science is finding out as part of God. All that exists is God and is of God. Do I believe that God is some bearded white man in the sky that is zapping people with his finger and watching them sin? No not really. I think the concepts of God that Christianity paints are very literal for the simple use of symbolism. It is much easier to picture God as a literally being rather than an abstract force behind all that is. I think that elements of God can be found in any religion and in many parts of life. I don't see the concept of God as something far off on a different plane, I see it as what IS. I could agree with lonewolf with the "I am" statement, but not in a lot of other things stated. I can agree with you guys on your disposition to the idea of creationism. I personally think creationism in the traditional sense is a bunch of BS. But the universes ability to bring order amongst all the chaos I find fascinating. The fact that we are matter that spawned from the beginning of time and has travelled through billions of years of existence has the ability to sit and ponder itself blows my mind. Science can tell me the how all day long, how we got here. And I look to spirituality and higher understanding to tell me the why. I do hold many Christian beliefs and yes, I do believe a man named Christ walked the earth and was indeed the Son of God. I think Christianity still has much to learn about the origins of this man and the events that surrounded it and what He really had to say (I do too), but it involves throwing away most of the Christian religion in the cultural context along with much of the doctrine. Christianity still pisses me off like no other, but I can get into more why I still believe Christianity, but first I look forward to hearing any thoughts on this.

Remember keep it kind, I attacked both sides, but attacked the ideology behind it not the people. I think everyone has something to contribute and I love conversations such as this.

Jasuum, you made some interesting points, but I am not sure of how much of this thread you read. It is not about the mere debate between Christianity and atheism. It is about a very specific flaw the intelligent design argument. I would love to know what you think is exactly the next step on the theism side of the debate we have been having. The atheists here are not "limiting" ourselves. We are making a major effort to get to the bottom of the theist side of the argument. What is it? Is it that the principle transcendent to our universe and at the root of our universe is not a conscious being and is an inanimate entity you call God? If you think God has intelligence, please explain it in terms of where we think there is a flaw in the intelligent design arugment. Thanks.

There were points that were raised that I felt the need to address.

I wasn't trying to convince anyone that Christianity was true atheism is false, just making some points (I am somewhat of a Universalist so I don't really evangelize in the traditional sense)

Do I believe that the universe was created by an intelligent "God"? Yes. I did address this to an extent when I started talking about the ability to put God under a microscope,because I believe we have been studying God since the dawn of civilization.

This is how I view God. These ideas may seem fundamental but bear with me. God is all powerful, all knowing. He has known everything that ever was and everything there ever will be. He is everywhere at once and is in complete control. Now Christians tend to visualize this as a literal God being with some sort of "super computer" brian. They visualize that God was zipping around the universe literally speaking things into existence. "Zap" there is a goat ect. This isn't how I view "intelligent design". I use these quotes a lot to separate myself from the terms, I use them loosely.

If asked if the universe and all that is in it has a purpose my answer is yes. I think the means that this God used when He did it Christianity doesn't understand, thus they are opposed to science. If the universe truly was created by God then I think he very well did it through the process of evolution. Big Bang? Sure. M-Theory? Yup. I think God does everything through perfectly explainable processes.

When I say you limit yourself it is because you aren't giving yourself the liberty to look deeper. It's like asking a nascar fan holding a beer why nascar is the best sport to watch and they just say "Yahoo! Fast cars!" If you really wanted to understand creationism (or Christianity) in comparison to nascar you need to go ask a coach or an engine mechanic, or least do some of your own research.

I have read this thread and is the debate that "If intelligent design exists then what intelligently designed God?" That is a stupid question. You are putting yourselves into a loop hole. If you want an answer there is no way to give one. Say there is a creator to God, well it isn't what created this reality. Correct me if I am wrong but isn't that the debate at hand about creationism, what created this?

If you are looking for a nuts and bolts answer then the only thing I can find that created the Christian God was to look into Gnosticism. But Gnosticism is nothing but symbolism. However it claims Sophia (wisdom, knowledge, femine) created "God Jehovah" of Christianity. Though you can't read this literally because then you just have another God-form creating. Well actually according gnostic texts "God the father" created himself out of the nothingness that Sophia created, that just because Sophia existed "God the Father" created himself. You are just going to get into the same loops as you do with any Christian doctrine and no Christian even holds these beliefs.

To take a step back your concept of Creation I think isn't that far away from how Christians view it, they just view it with a lot more "zap! here is this" than you do. Most people believe the big bang theory, which is basically proven by M-theory. That is still a "zap! here it is" there is just the concept of a few billion years in the mix. So it has to come down to the concept that does this "creation" or start of our concept of existence have purpose? Or chaos? This will come down to a personal decision.

To explain what I believe might take a bit so I am just going to jump right to the point. I think the universe has purpose, I think it has had a plan since matter birthed into what we see. I think the force that set that plan into motion had a plan from the beginning. I think that religion, spirituality, our own concept of existence are all parts of that initial plan and all our own ways of understanding it. Where I really begin to stray from traditional doctrine is where I blend the concepts of free will and predestination into one. I think they are the same thing. Everything in the universe is a result of cause and effect. The same is true with our lives. If we think we have control of our choices then we are mistaken, and if we think we don't make choices then we are mistaken. Evolution had no choice but what it is, you had no choice of who you are. Did you choose your parents? Some think so but that is just a fleeting belief. So you didn't choose your parents, but did you then choose how they raised you? No. Then, once you developed an ability for abstract thought, is any thought you have something of your own or something from outside influence, I think the latter. We eventually choose what we influence ourselves with, but then those choices are only reflections of our experience.

Everyday you are having stimulus from outside influences that shape and mold you and it always leads back to something that wasn't your choice. If there was a God creator (whatever it is) I think that the universe and our lives have been going in this perfect pattern, and it is a necessary one. To jump back to Christian ideals (which is where I derive most of my theology from) Believe entirely in Free Will. They believe this doctrine because they think that God created mankind out of his own loneliness (pathetic). They think that God wanted to create mankind and He gave them the ability to make choices (partly true) because He want us to CHOOSE to love him. Now if Christianity believe that God is who He says He is then this brings some very interesting things to the table. Because we all know what Christians think of people who don't choose God. However, the believe that people who go to you know where are only there because they have a choice, and they choose that. Which is complete bullshit, because who would choose to be eternally tortured. This also brings an interesting idea to the table, because if God went through the trouble of creating mankind because He loves them and He wants them to love him (by their own will) then God is a complete failure. Because a very small percentage of mankind will ever experience what they were created for (fellowship with God) the rest will eternally burn in hell. If Christians believe this concept of Satan, then satan has won, because He gets way more souls that God does.

This simply cannot be.

If God is the all powerful creator of the universe he had a plan from the beginning, call it the big bang if you must but it happened exactly how He wanted. I do think God's concept of time is different than our own, but I think it apparent ability to see the future isn't a literal time-travel one, I think it is one of knowing what is going to happen because he planned it from the start. I see creation in the sense of the big bang as the farthest back we can see in His plan, and God set the big bang in motion knowing it would create us here. I think God does everything through these carnal means. He didn't "poof" create earth, He created it the same way all solar systems are made. Perhaps there is other life out there, but I don't concern myself with it. By "create" I mean "planned" I believe every start in the universe, wether it has life or not is placed in it's position for a reason. I don't understand everything, I never will. I just know it has a plan because of my beliefs, and those beliefs are a result of my experiences. I have experienced some very profound things that make be believe there is a plan and a force that put those plans into motion. To say I am a Christian, sure, but not like many Christians you meet. I use the bible as a guide from others experiences to tell me a little bit more than I know about God, but I continually try to understand the roots of it, and the roots of other religions and philosophies. Sometimes I think religion is nothing more than our problem solving minds attempt to solve the problem of existing. If it is all in my head I find a lot more clarity for all that is through my beliefs. However, outside of my head I think everything was planned. I don't think God created something out of nothing, I think He created everything out of what IS, Himself. In Christianity the belief is that God came as Christ, put himself in the form of His creation so that we can relate to Him on our own perception, and have an insight to the reasons why there IS. Heaven? Hell? I think there is only heaven. I think salvation is understand what God wants us to. Christ speaks that message, but Christianity falsely represents it. Some get closer than others, some religions are closer than Christianity even. But do I think something Created God? No because to say God created the universe as in "Here is a blank canvas LET THERE BE UNIVERSE!" but that it is of himself. That all matter is never created and matter never leaves, it all is of the same thing. I think God did create us out of love, love to fellowship, but I think that he will eventually fellowship with each and everyone, just as the ideals of Christianity hold. But I think EVERYONE comes to that point, because God isn't a failure. Hell? Our concept of hell is only the continuation of this life or this thought process. Literal fire and brimstone isn't even a biblical concept, it is a western mis-translation. I think God subjects us to pain, confusion ect because we are learning, because he didn't create robots, he created creatures with wills and desires, but all our wills and desires are leading to the same point. This life, hell, everything that is are all perceptions and tools to understand it.

That is what I believe. I don't think your question is a simple one. It is simple to me, but it takes a lot of explaining. I find your question sort of the same as ones I hear on fox news. "Is Iraq better without Saddam Hussein? Yes or no?" The answer isn't yes or no, it's complicated. You won't find a simple answer, so you best start doing some more in depth thinking about it.

again, sorry for typos, I pumped that all out in under fifteen minuets, there might be some correctly spelled misplaced words in there (spell check) just let me know if a part didn't make sense. I try to type as fast as I think so....

=( well thats all very good and all. You made some nice points, but they didn't really address the question that is here (there are many areas of the forums you can copy and paste those explainations into, just not this one...). The question is not explain how God works, or even explain him in a more flattering mannor than most. The question is,

if God can come into existence without the help of a creator, why is it that existence itself can not come into being without the help of God?

Lets see if I can put this into a better wording.

Why is the idea of God coming into existence by itself MORE likely than natural laws coming into existence by themselves?

Universal Mind I'm not sure what exactly what you were asking for... I just didn't want you to think that I believe in God because of that one answered prayer (and I repeated myself because you still seemed to be talking about it.)

Originally Posted by Jeremysr

Universal Mind I'm not sure what exactly what you were asking for

How many times do we need to explain the question? Have you been reading this thread you keep posting in? Here's a good summary of the issue...

Originally Posted by Sandform

if God can come into existence without the help of a creator, why is it that existence itself can not come into being without the help of God?

Why is the idea of God coming into existence by itself MORE likely than natural laws coming into existence by themselves?

To answer that quote: well existence didn't come into being, only things within time can come into being. Outside time nothing "happens" I don't think. I don't really understand it much (like every other person in the world.) I'm just glad that I will understand soon!

According to how we know the Universe works, nothing should ever come from nonexistance. But it's different outside this Universe, and I think it's a waste of time to think about what it's "like" outside of the Universe. The only clue to what's "outside" the Universe is God. But we don't know much about him other than what he's like (not what he's "made of" or where he "came from"...)

Originally Posted by Jeremysr

To answer that quote: well existence didn't come into being, only things within time can come into being. Outside time nothing "happens" I don't think. I don't really understand it much (like every other person in the world.) I'm just glad that I will understand soon!

According to how we know the Universe works, nothing should ever come from nonexistance. But it's different outside this Universe, and I think it's a waste of time to think about what it's "like" outside of the Universe. The only clue to what's "outside" the Universe is God. But we don't know much about him other than what he's like (not what he's "made of" or where he "came from"...)

You're still missing the issue. You harped on the "come into being" part of Sandform's summary. You can subsitute those words with "exist". What we are trying to get to is the discrepency between God and an inanimate principle specifically in terms of the intelligent design argument. Why do you assume that what is transcendent to the universe and at the root of it is God and not just a scientific principle? Is there any solid logic behind the intelligent design argument in terms of that? Please read the thread before you answer. I really want to understand this. Thanks.

Originally Posted by Sandform

=( well thats all very good and all. You made some nice points, but they didn't really address the question that is here (there are many areas of the forums you can copy and paste those explainations into, just not this one...). The question is not explain how God works, or even explain him in a more flattering mannor than most. The question is,

if God can come into existence without the help of a creator, why is it that existence itself can not come into being without the help of God?

Lets see if I can put this into a better wording.

Why is the idea of God coming into existence by itself MORE likely than natural laws coming into existence by themselves?

I will have to ponder what you asked more because I must not be understanding the question, I encourage you to re-read what I said because you might not be understanding my answer also.

Let me reword what you asked (sometimes that helps ) are you asking that if God can just "be" then why can't the universe just "be"? Because if that is your question I answered it.

If you wish, I can try to simplify my answer.

Originally Posted by jaasum

Let me reword what you asked (sometimes that helps ) are you asking that if God can just "be" then why can't the universe just "be"? Because if that is your question I answered it.

Very close. Not necessarily the universe, but existence itself, perhaps rooted in a scientific principle that is transcendent to the time and matter of our universe. If you already answered that, please quote your specific answer because I couldn't find it.

Okay, thanks you are letting me understand a little better.

I will think about it and get back to you. Which will probably result in shorter posts.

Okay, I have thought about it for a little bit as I finished up at work ect.

Here is how I can answer it, as simply as possible.

I like this question, I really do. I like it because it is one of the smartest things I have heard from an atheistic standpoint and it sounds like a sincere question. I have never pondered it and it made me think. I did answer it a little bit above but for the sake of clarity lets just move forward.

How I understand this is that since, according to Christians God always has been, then why can't existence just as easily always have been? That is interesting and I guess I missed it the question entirely at first because it is a loophole question. You answered it yourself. I am trying really hard to think of a good analogy but it's hard to explain. I see them as the same thing. Creation is an expression of God, it is part of God and God expresses it to us in many different ways. To clarify even more all the matter that we see as our own reality, all the matter we don't see ect is all literally a part of God. Good, evil, love, hate, the rocks, the skies, the sun, the stars is all God. Does that mean I think you and me ARE God? Not exactly, we are OF God. He birthed this reality of Himself because it was His nature. A God of laws such as the ones we see in nature is not a stupid one, and I see it as one with a plan that will be fulfilled, but this is where I'll stop. In short I see your question as trying to separate two things I see as the same. It's the same paradox I see with free-will and predestination. Sort of like two wings on a bird. If you use only one you will fly in circles, you need both to make sense of what IS.

Originally Posted by jaasum

Okay, thanks you are letting me understand a little better.

I will think about it and get back to you. Which will probably result in shorter posts.

OWNED.

But really, I wonder what exact part of a Christian's mind is broken, so they can not see the factual logic that the existence of the universe (or of existence itself like UV said) is just as like likely to have come out of nothing than God.

Actually, some dude that gets angry and happy 'just existing' is waaayyyy less logically.

Anyhow. Oooold new : /