Thread: Why would you not belive in a god?

That isn't believing in God.

Yes, why not pray to Shiva or Ganesh?

Originally Posted by Jdog

and excelent point. i honestly dont know why, i dont pray to a specific god hell i dont pray at all, whenever i have problems i dont think "please god help me" i think how can i fix this problem. i dont count on god to fix my problems or even help me in any way, i count on myself. that doesnt mean i cant belive there is a god in some form

Okay. Now I understand better where you are coming from.

The problem with believing in just some random idea of what you think god is is simply a waste of time. How do you know that if there is a god out there, that you are completely wrong about everything that he wants of you? What if he doesn't actually want you to waste your time believing in him? How do you know? The answer is you don't know, so the logical solution would be to forget about his existence or non-existence and enjoy all the things about life that you are certain about.

Originally Posted by Mes Tarrant

Okay. Now I understand better where you are coming from.

The problem with believing in just some random idea of what you think god is is simply a waste of time. How do you know that if there is a god out there, that you are completely wrong about everything that he wants of you? What if he doesn't actually want you to waste your time believing in him? How do you know? The answer is you don't know, so the logical solution would be to forget about his existence or non-existence and enjoy all the things about life that you are certain about.

an excelent point. thats preaty much the way i live anyway i enjoy the things im certin about. i still belive there may be a god in some form, and i do belive that the 10 commandments are at least a good set of guidelines to live your life by. but every time i have a problem i dont even expect any help from anyone but myself or my friends

This is a pugnatious thread. I'm a Christian, I believe in God, and I do not belive that atheism is the right path to follow, but if you are trying to convince the other side that they're wrong, this isn't the way to go about it.

That said, I can't help but express my opinion on the subject.

OK, on the side of Jdog, it's like the argument that one of the philosophers from the Age of Reason in Europe made--I cannot remember for the life of me which one it was, perhaps Kant or Hegel--basically that God may or may not exist, but it would be better to believe and be proven wrong after death than to not believe and find that he does exist. Like so many things in life, one can never be sure.

Another point to consider is that there are different forms and divisions of Christianity; not all Christians (laypeople or otherwise) believe that gays will go to hell. Not all Christians believe that people who do not go to church will go to hell. As with any other group, stereotypes do not accurately describe every Christian. There are churches that preach fire and brimstone every Sunday (and Wednesday), and I have seen at least one, but my church isn't like that and it isn't the only one.

Last, and maybe most important, is that most churches teach that God forgives, the Puritans being the only exception that comes to mind at the moment. So yes, people aren't perfect, but that's why Christians repent for their sins, so they can be forgiven. It doesn't mean that you can't try to be better, but people make mistakes.

On the other hand, I can sympathize with those who do not believe in a Christian God or God of any sort. I went through a period of my life when I didn't believe. The most pressing question for me was, "If God loves us, why do we suffer?" Indeed there is suffering in the world, too much for a single person to wrap their head around. Why would God allow this?

Another reason people don't believe is that it isn't practical. There are so many other things one could do during that 1-3 hours spent at church every Sunday.

The last is another pressing matter: Why would a God who loves all send so many people to hell? Gays, people who have sex outside of marriage, atheists... There seems to be no end to the possibilities of people not going to heaven, at least according to the teachings of men.

Now I have my philosophy...or theology... Call me a heretic for some of these things, but I don't care. Excommunicate me.
1. The Bible is not infalible; it was written by human hand, and man is not infalible, so neither is his writing. Furthermore, many things are lost or distorted in translation.
2. The Bible shouldn't be taken word for word. Many of the things it says pertain to the times, such as restrictions on the power of women.
3. God forgives, so if you do something wrong and you regret it, you can ask for forgiveness and you will recieve it. I'm still debating myself in the case of something looked down upon but not regretted by the "guilty" party.
4. God appears to everyone as he will most readily accept him. Every religion has a savior and a moral code, most setting laws against acts of cruelty or waste. Again, I'm still debating myself a little, but I don't believe that God would send a person to hell simply for not being taught about Jesus.
5. As to why there is so much suffering, I believe that God proides strength to get through situations. We also have loved ones. Life is a trial, a test, if you will, and the reward for getting through it is eternal paradise. The Church is one community that helps to meet that end; it makes life easier when you can relate to others, unify and support one another and seek support from God.

My belief system is a work in progress; I don't think God can ever be fully understood, which is where faith comes in. If you don't want to believe, no one can make you. You just have to decide what is most important to you. I just think that an atheist's path is a cold and lonely one, with no hope for something better. That's one of the reasons why people do believe; sometimes they have to to keep going.

Rant's over, I promise. Sorry I overdid it.

Originally Posted by Semper Erato

This is a pugnatious thread. I'm a Christian, I believe in God, and I do not belive that atheism is the right path to follow, but if you are trying to convince the other side that they're wrong, this isn't the way to go about it.

That said, I can't help but express my opinion on the subject.

OK, on the side of Jdog, it's like the argument that one of the philosophers from the Age of Reason in Europe made--I cannot remember for the life of me which one it was, perhaps Kant or Hegel--basically that God may or may not exist, but it would be better to believe and be proven wrong after death than to not believe and find that he does exist. Like so many things in life, one can never be sure.

Another point to consider is that there are different forms and divisions of Christianity; not all Christians (laypeople or otherwise) believe that gays will go to hell. Not all Christians believe that people who do not go to church will go to hell. As with any other group, stereotypes do not accurately describe every Christian. There are churches that preach fire and brimstone every Sunday (and Wednesday), and I have seen at least one, but my church isn't like that and it isn't the only one.

Last, and maybe most important, is that most churches teach that God forgives, the Puritans being the only exception that comes to mind at the moment. So yes, people aren't perfect, but that's why Christians repent for their sins, so they can be forgiven. It doesn't mean that you can't try to be better, but people make mistakes.

On the other hand, I can sympathize with those who do not believe in a Christian God or God of any sort. I went through a period of my life when I didn't believe. The most pressing question for me was, "If God loves us, why do we suffer?" Indeed there is suffering in the world, too much for a single person to wrap their head around. Why would God allow this?

Another reason people don't believe is that it isn't practical. There are so many other things one could do during that 1-3 hours spent at church every Sunday.

The last is another pressing matter: Why would a God who loves all send so many people to hell? Gays, people who have sex outside of marriage, atheists... There seems to be no end to the possibilities of people not going to heaven, at least according to the teachings of men.

Now I have my philosophy...or theology... Call me a heretic for some of these things, but I don't care. Excommunicate me.
1. The Bible is not infalible; it was written by human hand, and man is not infalible, so neither is his writing. Furthermore, many things are lost or distorted in translation.
2. The Bible shouldn't be taken word for word. Many of the things it says pertain to the times, such as restrictions on the power of women.
3. God forgives, so if you do something wrong and you regret it, you can ask for forgiveness and you will recieve it. I'm still debating myself in the case of something looked down upon but not regretted by the "guilty" party.
4. God appears to everyone as he will most readily accept him. Every religion has a savior and a moral code, most setting laws against acts of cruelty or waste. Again, I'm still debating myself a little, but I don't believe that God would send a person to hell simply for not being taught about Jesus.
5. As to why there is so much suffering, I believe that God proides strength to get through situations. We also have loved ones. Life is a trial, a test, if you will, and the reward for getting through it is eternal paradise. The Church is one community that helps to meet that end; it makes life easier when you can relate to others, unify and support one another and seek support from God.

My belief system is a work in progress; I don't think God can ever be fully understood, which is where faith comes in. If you don't want to believe, no one can make you. You just have to decide what is most important to you. I just think that an atheist's path is a cold and lonely one, with no hope for something better. That's one of the reasons why people do believe; sometimes they have to to keep going.

Rant's over, I promise. Sorry I overdid it.

You, my friend, are a breath of fresh air after bibleforums.
I just want to respond to the last part because this is a common argument. I will speak mainly for myself but also atheists in general, but I don't think we are cold and lonely. There are times when we feel this way and we fill these feelings with loved ones and just the joy of being alive. I actually had more cold and depressing moments when I was a Christian and that were actually caused BY Christianity (can't go into details, sorry). I think atheists appreciate life more because we strongly believe this is all we get as opposed to this just being a test round for the afterlife. We also find much more serenity in the miracle (using this term unreligiously) of nature.
I know to a lot of people religion can be a great comfort and I think honestly some people really need that and can't find any solace in real life. But I am not one of these people.

Originally Posted by Semper Erato

I just think that an atheist's path is a cold and lonely one, with no hope for something better.

I hear this a lot from theists these days. I think this is just something that theists want to think about atheists in order to justify their belief in a god of some sort. Yes, in fact, I think it's as simple as that.

I am telling you that atheists are not any more depressed than theists (again, just look at various published statistics). If this is the case, why is it still better to believe in something and then be proven wrong in death than to not believe in something and find that god does exist? To me, the latter option sounds much more exciting! So I went all my life thinking that there probably is no god... and then I die and presto, my spirit is still alive because I was wrong! Sounds like a party to me!

Originally Posted by Mes Tarrant

If this is the case, why is it still better to believe in something and then be proven wrong in death than to not believe in something and find that god does exist? To me, the latter option sounds much more exciting! So I went all my life thinking that there probably is no god... and then I die and presto, my spirit is still alive because I was wrong! Sounds like a party to me!

Yeah, I think when we die we won't be able to know that we were right or wrong. I mean... because we'll be dead.

I always figured the lonely people were the ones imagining invisible friends.

Originally Posted by Mark75

I always figured the lonely people were the ones imagining invisible friends.

LULZ!!

Jdog, please tell me you aren't the same person as Jaydawg. I'd long since dismissed him as dead (or simply vanished from the internet, I didn't really care which).

Then again, you said you don't do drugs, while Jaydawg never missed a chance to proselytize about the benefits of acid and pot...Nevertheless, I'll be watching you...

Originally Posted by Jdog

i came up with the "most religious folks are happier than atheists" from my general experience in life. i have both atheist and religious friends, and most of the time those religious friends are the ones who seem to be quite happy with what they have, rather than always searching for something more.

I have a friend who had a brief Campus Crusade period in college and still has friends from then. They all got married in their early twenties, and every one of the women she stayed in touch with came to her in tears within two years, convinced that they'd failed God in their marriage because their sex lives were so dysfunctional.

I'd just like to point out that pascal's wager is an outdated bit of half-assed philosophy invented to rationalize the indoctrinated beliefs held by an otherwise purely logical thinking man. When Blaise Pascal first presented this argument more than 300 years ago, he was operating under the assumption that there were only two options; the belief that there is no god, or the belief in the Christian god. Obviously there are as many different options as there are human brains to conceive them and more, so this reasoning holds no water.


Am I honestly the first person to use the phrase 'pascal's wager' in this thread?

Originally Posted by Mes Tarrant

I hear this a lot from theists these days. I think this is just something that theists want to think about atheists in order to justify their belief in a god of some sort. Yes, in fact, I think it's as simple as that.

I am telling you that atheists are not any more depressed than theists (again, just look at various published statistics). If this is the case, why is it still better to believe in something and then be proven wrong in death than to not believe in something and find that god does exist? To me, the latter option sounds much more exciting! So I went all my life thinking that there probably is no god... and then I die and presto, my spirit is still alive because I was wrong! Sounds like a party to me!

But wouldn't it be a bitch to find out that that party entailed an eternity of suffering beyond your most hellish nightmares on account of your abandoned and heathenistic lifestyle?

Originally Posted by Semper Erato

I just think that an atheist's path is a cold and lonely one, with no hope for something better.

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

Am I honestly the first person to use the phrase 'pascal's wager' in this thread?

And am I honestly the first person to intervene between both theists and atheists and state that we are all-powerful due to being conscious self-aware beings with infinite potential?

It seems like both sides find comfort in either God or lack thereof but both those positions are condescending to oneself.

We are the pinnacle of consciousness ourselves. We have ultimate potential because we can learn infinitely and gain any knowledge, and thus any power. Why condescend yourself into either being an infinite servant of someone (God) or a bag of flesh and bone limited to nothing more than what everyone is used to amongst modern society?

Originally Posted by Jdog

beliving in god is a win win situation. if you belive in a god and go to church or some form of worship for an hour every sunday and there is a god you get in to heaven and win. if there isnt a god you lose and hour of every sunday which you would have wasted anyway but you dont realy lose anything. so why claim to be an atheist when there is a posibility that a god exists?
theres just no logic in not beliving in a god.

It is not a matter of choice. If it is, then why not make a decision to believe in two gods? Why not a thousand? Why not decide to believe that you are a movie star? The next time you get worried about money, all you have to do is make a decision to believe that you are a multi-billionaire. What do you think about those decisions?

Originally Posted by Merlock

And am I honestly the first person to intervene between both theists and atheists and state that we are all-powerful due to being conscious self-aware beings with infinite potential?

It seems like both sides find comfort in either God or lack thereof but both those positions are condescending to oneself.

We are the pinnacle of consciousness ourselves. We have ultimate potential because we can learn infinitely and gain any knowledge, and thus any power. Why condescend yourself into either being an infinite servant of someone (God) or a bag of flesh and bone limited to nothing more than what everyone is used to amongst modern society?

Do you find comfort in the belief that you have infinite potential?

No, I find ambition. And I'm surprised that both theists and those atheists that deny the possibility of anything aren't huddled in dark corners, depressed to no end over being inferior to anyone (God) or anything (the world).

Edit: And this isn't a belief. We are conscious self-aware beings. That much is true and evident. Because of this, we have infinite potential. That can't be denied.

Originally Posted by Merlock

No, I find ambition. And I'm surprised that both theists and those atheists that deny the possibility of anything aren't huddled in dark corners, depressed to no end over being inferior to anyone (God) or anything (the world).

Edit: And this isn't a belief. We are conscious self-aware beings. That much is true and evident. Because of this, we have infinite potential. That can't be denied.

I'm not sure if you realize this, but your conclusion does not naturally follow your premise and is far from being self evident. Despite your obviously zealous belief in these concepts, they are far from undeniable. Perhaps this brings a better perspective since you are quite obviously guilty of the same "I'm right and everyone else is wrong" mentality as the rest of us. Consciousness does not imply 'infinite potential' just because you so blindly assert that it does any more than god exists because a theist doggedly asserts that it does, or does not because an atheist loudly asserts that it doesn't.

Originally Posted by M-Cat

someone please sig this. right now.

Mee mee!!! I call it! Mine!

My sig is near perfect now! All I need is a better picture!

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

Consciousness does not imply 'infinite potential'

Erm, yes, it does.

To do anything, you need to know how to do it. That means you need knowledge of how to realise that action. Thus, knowledge is power.
We have the ability to acquire knowledge infinitely and use it and manipulate it due to being conscious and self-aware. Hence, we have infinite potential.

And besides, you say "zealous belief" as if it's a bad thing (the belief is, the zealotry isn't). The very point behind my position is that I will not let anyone or anything stand in my way. That is why both the belief in God and the mind frame of being an insignificant bag of flesh and bones are both self-condescending.

Why would you allow anyone or anything to make you feel inferior?

I've tried to explain this to you before, and since I have already realized the futility of any attempts I will end this with an assertion of my own, so as not to derail the current topic with this unrelate banter. Your blind faith in your own conjectures is as bad and possibly worse than anyone else's on this forum. If you really want to debate this irrelevant topic, make (yet) another thread for it.

Originally Posted by Jdog

beliving in god is a win win situation. if you belive in a god and go to church or some form of worship for an hour every sunday and there is a god you get in to heaven and win. if there isnt a god you lose and hour of every sunday which you would have wasted anyway but you dont realy lose anything. so why claim to be an atheist when there is a posibility that a god exists?
theres just no logic in not beliving in a god.

If there is a God, he is too big for one religion. How do you choose which to follow? The most common answer would be the biggest, easiest, and most rewarding. Welcome to Christianity.

If there was only one religion, or all religions were less different, and the religions weren't so contradictory, this theory could hold true. Since that is not the case, it is more logical to take a neutral or an unbiased spiritual view, as in Deism which follows no religion yet still believes in a God. This is basically a Theist/Agnostic hybrid.

The reason that people would choose to be an Atheist, aside from the above, is both that religions are highly illogical / nonsensical, and because of the different advances in science that coincide with Theist views. Evolution completely contradict the Gospel. There is the Theistic Evolution theory that God created evolution, but that is still coinciding with the Gospel and was only created to appease some concerned people.

Overall, when you put your faith in a religion, you put your faith in people. It wasn't God that wrote the Bible, it was people. God didn't translate the Bible from Koptic to Hebrew to Greek to Latin to English, people did. God didn't tell you how to interpret certain controversial topics in the Bible, people did. God didn't choose what to leave out and keep in the Bible in the 4th Century, people did. There were originally over 30 Gospels, but the church chose only to keep Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John because they were the most well known at the time and because the others could contradict, only showing the flaws of emotions in humans in some of the most influential of religious icons.

So, while it is debatable whether belief in God is logical, it is not very logical at all to believe in a religion.

Originally Posted by Jdog

i imagine if a god did exist then he would be much more impressed with my "lip sevice" then you total deniance.

"If God were alive today, he'd be an Atheist." - Somebody I forgot

If there is a God who is omniscient and omnipotent, he would clearly see through the fog of lies and deceit provided by the church. For a God who is all-loving, omnipotent, and omniscient, allowing flawed humans to run a campaign that regulates his existence down to every basic section of human life is unreasonable on the highest of standards.

Originally Posted by Jdog

i came up with the "most religious folks are happier than atheists" from my general experience in life. i have both atheist and religious friends, and most of the time those religious friends are the ones who seem to be quite happy with what they have, rather than always searching for something more.

I actually find the opposite in most cases. Nearly all of the strongly religious people I know are very uptight and are too concerned about something or another to have as much fun as they could have. The few Agnostics and Atheists that I know, however, don't care about having to keep up with a religious agenda, and also aren't being told so many things by a church that their heads are on the verge of explosion. This leaves them as very very fun people.

Originally Posted by Semper Erato

This is a pugnatious thread. I'm a Christian, I believe in God, and I do not belive that atheism is the right path to follow, but if you are trying to convince the other side that they're wrong, this isn't the way to go about it.

That said, I can't help but express my opinion on the subject.

OK, on the side of Jdog, it's like the argument that one of the philosophers from the Age of Reason in Europe made--I cannot remember for the life of me which one it was, perhaps Kant or Hegel--basically that God may or may not exist, but it would be better to believe and be proven wrong after death than to not believe and find that he does exist. Like so many things in life, one can never be sure.

I think it may have been Pascal. Not exactly sure, but that sounds right.

Originally Posted by Semper Erato

Another point to consider is that there are different forms and divisions of Christianity; not all Christians (laypeople or otherwise) believe that gays will go to hell. Not all Christians believe that people who do not go to church will go to hell. As with any other group, stereotypes do not accurately describe every Christian. There are churches that preach fire and brimstone every Sunday (and Wednesday), and I have seen at least one, but my church isn't like that and it isn't the only one.

Only the lesser of two evils. Yes, the fire and brimstone church is pretty bad. When I was very young at a church camp some preacher randomly started preaching like that and it scared the shit out of me. Scare tactics as an attempt to convert. The Gospel still says those things though, and many people take them literally. Should I be stoned because I didn't go to church today? You may say no because you are slightly more logical than other Christians, but I guarantee you that some would say yes. It's great when you only see the best side of things.

Originally Posted by Semper Erato

Last, and maybe most important, is that most churches teach that God forgives, the Puritans being the only exception that comes to mind at the moment. So yes, people aren't perfect, but that's why Christians repent for their sins, so they can be forgiven. It doesn't mean that you can't try to be better, but people make mistakes.

If God forgives, truly, there would be no need for Hell. An all-forgiving God as Christians preach would not send anybody to Hell. Even if they cursed Jesus' name while killing and raping babies.

Originally Posted by Semper Erato

On the other hand, I can sympathize with those who do not believe in a Christian God or God of any sort. I went through a period of my life when I didn't believe. The most pressing question for me was, "If God loves us, why do we suffer?" Indeed there is suffering in the world, too much for a single person to wrap their head around. Why would God allow this?

Another reason people don't believe is that it isn't practical. There are so many other things one could do during that 1-3 hours spent at church every Sunday.

The time spent isn't as impractical as the things spent in those hours and the resulting person afterwards.

Originally Posted by Semper Erato

The last is another pressing matter: Why would a God who loves all send so many people to hell? Gays, people who have sex outside of marriage, atheists... There seems to be no end to the possibilities of people not going to heaven, at least according to the teachings of men.

Hey, I said that.

Originally Posted by Semper Erato

Now I have my philosophy...or theology... Call me a heretic for some of these things, but I don't care. Excommunicate me.
1. The Bible is not infalible; it was written by human hand, and man is not infalible, so neither is his writing. Furthermore, many things are lost or distorted in translation.
2. The Bible shouldn't be taken word for word. Many of the things it says pertain to the times, such as restrictions on the power of women.
3. God forgives, so if you do something wrong and you regret it, you can ask for forgiveness and you will recieve it. I'm still debating myself in the case of something looked down upon but not regretted by the "guilty" party.
4. God appears to everyone as he will most readily accept him. Every religion has a savior and a moral code, most setting laws against acts of cruelty or waste. Again, I'm still debating myself a little, but I don't believe that God would send a person to hell simply for not being taught about Jesus.
5. As to why there is so much suffering, I believe that God proides strength to get through situations. We also have loved ones. Life is a trial, a test, if you will, and the reward for getting through it is eternal paradise. The Church is one community that helps to meet that end; it makes life easier when you can relate to others, unify and support one another and seek support from God.

My belief system is a work in progress; I don't think God can ever be fully understood, which is where faith comes in. If you don't want to believe, no one can make you. You just have to decide what is most important to you. I just think that an atheist's path is a cold and lonely one, with no hope for something better. That's one of the reasons why people do believe; sometimes they have to to keep going.

Rant's over, I promise. Sorry I overdid it.

You are a very logical, smart person I see. Many aspects of your beliefs are very logical, and the first steps I started making to becoming Deist, then Agnostic. Not saying that you should, though. See where everything leads you. You're definitely one of the most reasonable Christians I've seen in a long time.

Originally Posted by Jdog

beliving in god is a win win situation. if you belive in a god and go to church or some form of worship for an hour every sunday and there is a god you get in to heaven and win. if there isnt a god you lose and hour of every sunday which you would have wasted anyway but you dont realy lose anything. so why claim to be an atheist when there is a posibility that a god exists?
theres just no logic in not beliving in a god.

You don't chose to believe or not. It's not something you just turn on or off at will.

Secondly, if there is a God and the nature of which according to Christianity et al is correct, he will see straight through your moral cowardice and how you're only believing in him because you want the payoff.

You also make massive assumptions about the nature of God. If there was a God who cared about humanity, why would he punish good people who think logically? Why wouldn't that be valued. Why would people who are intrinsicly good for it's own sake be punished with eternal punishment. If it's true that God created us, then he gave us our brains. Why should we be punished for using those gifts?

I can't help the fact that I'm intelligent and that I can see the 'evidence' many others rely on is flawed.



This is why it's good to be an atheist (technically agnostic, but most of us are so disbelieving of a God that we simply call it 100% disbelief instead of 99.999% for convenience):

You get to go through life and make decisions objectively. If someone disproves evolution, we will see the evidence, laugh about how we were wrong, rejoice that we're more informed, and move on. Our entire world will not come crashing down, and we won't start committing mass suicide because we no longer have a purpose, etc.

Since we are objective, if we are proven wrong or there is contradicting evidence to a scientific claim, we don't have to defend it irrationally, ignore it's existence or otherwise turn on a defense mechanism to hide from the truth.

Statistically Atheists are less likely to commit crimes; again probably because we're good for our own sake.

We don't worry ourselves needlessly about going to Hell. How our friends are going to hell. How XYZ is going to hell because they are 'unsaved'

We are free to persue knowledge and make more informed decisions. Science can't answer if abortion is wrong, but it can tell you that for several weeks the embryo is an unfeeling cluster of cells. That 10% of pregnancies terminate naturally. And logic can point out the flaws and stupidity in absolute statements like "contraception is wrong". Tell that to the people in Africa where HIV is prevelant.

We don't have to worry when something new is discovered if it is inconsistent with our beliefs.

Instead of worrying all your life trying to please some diety, you're free to make your own purpose. There's no nonsense where people teach you that natural responses and actions (such as sex) are "sins", and "wrong". And of course, you don't waste time on the whole religious thing.

Originally Posted by Jdog

i do masturbate which is supposedly against a commandment.

Originally Posted by Jdog

i do belive that the 10 commandments are at least a good set of guidelines to live your life by.

Maybe you better learn those commandments first before you commit to them, Jdog. "Thou shalt not pleasure thyself".

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

Am I honestly the first person to use the phrase 'pascal's wager' in this thread?

Originally Posted by Moonbeam

You realize this is a very tired old argument, don't you?

I didn't figure Jdog would know anything about Pascal.

That is entirely possible. I just expected a response something like "Pascal's wager debunked FTW!!!" to show up on the first page.