Christian Religion and Jesus Gospels

[juroara]

I'm making this thread so when I have something to say, I'll say it. And first I want to talk about the hypocrisy of established Christian religion, in the face as to what the gospel actually says. I understand the problem with taking the bible literally or even too seriously considering all of its issues. But even if we take it as is, it sill challenges established Christian religion. ******************* So the first....ISSUE I would like to talk about, is the basic belief that you need to accept Jesus as your savior or else ETERNAL DAMNATION. Hellfire and all that jazz. That if you don't accept Jesus as your savior, you actually DESERVE to burn forever for not accepting Jesus sacrifice. I think this prayer found in John best illustrates how Jesus feels about himself and what he feels his mission on earth was. john 17:20 "I do not pray only for them. I pray also for those who will believe in me because of their message. Father, I pray that all of them will be one, just as you are in me and I am in you. I want them also to be in us. Then the world will believe that you have sent me. "I have given them the glory you gave me. I did this so they would be one, just as we are one. I will be in them, just as you are in me. I want them to be brought together perfectly as one. This will let the world know that you sent me. It will also show the world that you have loved those you gave me, just as you have loved me." (the first prayer was concerning the disciples, which is who 'them' refers to) what does this prayer said by Jesus in John illustrate? 1. he doesn't mention hell 2. he shows a desire for people to have unity with God and each other 3. the same unity he believes he has currently with God 4. which means hes not placing himself on a pedestal where by only he can have unity with God 5. but does still show a belief that he has a mission of some sort, and seems to be praying to God that people recognize this mission. but why doesn't his prayer say something of the sort "God, I pray that everyone realizes that only by worshiping me can they reach Heaven! To save them from your hellfire wrath if they don't accept my bloody sacrifice to you!!" ******************** The next issue I would like to bring up, is the 'where' is the Father. Matthew 18:10 “See that you do not look down on any of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven.” now, this phrase is generally understood as "children have heavenly representatives, you mess with children you mess with their guardians" and take it as a fair warning. is their another way to understand this phrase? especially when coupled with. . . luke 20 "Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is within you." now this verse has become, just as difficult as that children verse for people to interpret. some have opted for 'among you'. because 'within you' made no sense to them. but if we take the meaning that the kingdom of heaven is within you, what then can it mean if Angels see the face of the Father when concerning children? ******************* Church hierarchy is what the catholic church is allllll about. I don't even know half of the order. Now, we can attribute church hierarchy to Paul. What does Jesus say about priests, and rabbis, and such. Does he deem them important?? How important is the Pope?? Matthew 23:8 “But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi’, for you only have one Master and you are all brothers. And do not call anyone on earth ‘father’, for you only have one Father, and he is in heaven. Nor are you to be called ‘teacher’, for you only have one Teacher, the Christ.” Catholic church gets a D minus for following directions!! How buddhist this statement is when you understand it. Its most interesting to note that here, Jesus says "the Christ". Not "ME". but all of these together and you start to get interesting results but, the gospel gets even more interesting when we look at the two gospels, NOT included in the bible - coming up, next =b

[blackjack]

If i may reply Jesus says to understand him we must have the faith of a child and yes God will kick ur arse if you mess with a child lol. We are all Gods children and he loves us all. And im not catholic no do i agree with many of their teachings and intructions and blah blah. Just my 2 cents right or not

[juroara]

Now, there are four accepted gospels in the bible. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. . There is a problem with the first three gospels, Mathew, Mark and Luke. The problem is..they sound TOO SIMILAR. Now lets imagine, a bunch of people are eye witnesses to an event. Wouldn't their subjective experience create different stories of the same event? Wouldn't how you and I explain a situation, be different?? There are two other gospels not included in the bible. And they weren't included because they sounded so different, radically different. But the point I am making is, we should expect the gospels to sound different!! One of them is Mary Magdala's gospel. He gospel is under fire because 1. it infers she had a close relationship to Jesus 2. infers Jesus shared knowledge with her, BLASPHEMY A WOMAN 3. what she has to say, doesn't sound, um, christian Unfortunately, we are missing pages of her gospel. Which is a damn shame because it would rock the christian world apart. Listen to her gospel and the image of Jesus changes. ******************************* The Gospel According to Mary Magdalene Chapter 4 (Pages 1 to 6 of the manuscript, containing chapters 1 - 3, are lost. The extant text starts on page 7...) . . . Will matter then be destroyed or not? 22) The Savior said, All nature, all formations, all creatures exist in and with one another, and they will be resolved again into their own roots. 23) For the nature of matter is resolved into the roots of its own nature alone. 24) He who has ears to hear, let him hear. 25) Peter said to him, Since you have explained everything to us, tell us this also: What is the sin of the world? 26) The Savior said There is no sin, but it is you who make sin when you do the things that are like the nature of adultery, which is called sin. 27) That is why the Good came into your midst, to the essence of every nature in order to restore it to its root. 28) Then He continued and said, That is why you become sick and die, for you are deprived of the one who can heal you. 29) He who has a mind to understand, let him understand. 30) Matter gave birth to a passion that has no equal, which proceeded from something contrary to nature. Then there arises a disturbance in its whole body. 31) That is why I said to you, Be of good courage, and if you are discouraged be encouraged in the presence of the different forms of nature. 32) He who has ears to hear, let him hear. 33) When the Blessed One had said this, He greeted them all,saying, Peace be with you. Receive my peace unto yourselves. 34) Beware that no one lead you astray saying Lo here or lo there! For the Son of Man is within you. 35) Follow after Him! 36) Those who seek Him will find Him. 37) Go then and preach the gospel of the Kingdom. 38) Do not lay down any rules beyond what I appointed you, and do not give a law like the lawgiver lest you be constrained by it. 39) When He said this He departed. Chapter 5 1) But they were grieved. They wept greatly, saying, How shall we go to the Gentiles and preach the gospel of the Kingdom of the Son of Man? If they did not spare Him, how will they spare us? 2) Then Mary stood up, greeted them all, and said to her brethren, Do not weep and do not grieve nor be irresolute, for His grace will be entirely with you and will protect you. 3) But rather, let us praise His greatness, for He has prepared us and made us into Men. 4) When Mary said this, she turned their hearts to the Good, and they began to discuss the words of the Savior. 5) Peter said to Mary, Sister we know that the Savior loved you more than the rest of woman. 6) Tell us the words of the Savior which you remember which you know, but we do not, nor have we heard them. 7) Mary answered and said, What is hidden from you I will proclaim to you. 8) And she began to speak to them these words: I, she said, I saw the Lord in a vision and I said to Him, Lord I saw you today in a vision. He answered and said to me, 9) Blessed are you that you did not waver at the sight of Me. For where the mind is there is the treasure. 10) I said to Him, Lord, how does he who sees the vision see it, through the soul or through the spirit? 11) The Savior answered and said, He does not see through the soul nor through the spirit, but the mind that is between the two that is what sees the vision and it is [...] (pages 11 - 14 are missing from the manuscript) Chapter 8: . . . it. 10) And desire said, I did not see you descending, but now I see you ascending. Why do you lie since you belong to me? 11) The soul answered and said, I saw you. You did not see me nor recognize me. I served you as a garment and you did not know me. 12) When it said this, it (the soul) went away rejoicing greatly. 13) Again it came to the third power, which is called ignorance. 14) The power questioned the soul, saying, Where are you going? In wickedness are you bound. But you are bound; do not judge! 15) And the soul said, Why do you judge me, although I have not judged? 16) I was bound, though I have not bound. 17) I was not recognized. But I have recognized that the All is being dissolved, both the earthly things and the heavenly. 18) When the soul had overcome the third power, it went upwards and saw the fourth power, which took seven forms. 19) The first form is darkness, the second desire, the third ignorance, the fourth is the excitement of death, the fifth is the kingdom of the flesh, the sixth is the foolish wisdom of flesh, the seventh is the wrathful wisdom. These are the seven powers of wrath. 20) They asked the soul, Whence do you come slayer of men, or where are you going, conqueror of space? 21) The soul answered and said, What binds me has been slain, and what turns me about has been overcome, 22) and my desire has been ended, and ignorance has died. 23) In a aeon I was released from a world, and in a Type from a type, and from the fetter of oblivion which is transient. 24) From this time on will I attain to the rest of the time, of the season, of the aeon, in silence. Chapter 9 1) When Mary had said this, she fell silent, since it was to this point that the Savior had spoken with her. 2) But Andrew answered and said to the brethren, Say what you wish to say about what she has said. I at least do not believe that the Savior said this. For certainly these teachings are strange ideas. 3) Peter answered and spoke concerning these same things. 4) He questioned them about the Savior: Did He really speak privately with a woman and not openly to us? Are we to turn about and all listen to her? Did He prefer her to us? 5) Then Mary wept and said to Peter, My brother Peter, what do you think? Do you think that I have thought this up myself in my heart, or that I am lying about the Savior? 6) Levi answered and said to Peter, Peter you have always been hot tempered. 7) Now I see you contending against the woman like the adversaries. 8) But if the Savior made her worthy, who are you indeed to reject her? Surely the Savior knows her very well. 9) That is why He loved her more than us. Rather let us be ashamed and put on the perfect Man, and separate as He commanded us and preach the gospel, not laying down any other rule or other law beyond what the Savior said. 10) And when they heard this they began to go forth to proclaim and to preach. The Gospel According to Mary now it is confusing because we are missing so much. the second half sounds like the journey of the soul overcoming ego illusions. and a general sense that the world is illusionary and will eventually return to its 'roots'. its true nature.

[StonedApe]

Jesus said to love everyone. Thats the only thing you need to know, because if you actually do this, everything will become clear. Most christians do not see the interconnectedness of all of our species. If they did they wouldn't fight wars or persecuit others for their beleifs.

[blackjack]

As I have stated in another thread, yes Jesus said to love everyone and that is essentially the job of a christian, BUT there are bad apples on every tree, but that does not spoil the entire tree. Do you see all christians persecuting for others beliefs? No. What about all christians being for a war or starting a so called "Holy War", I don't think so. And yes the crusades were evil, but they were carried out by the evil and corrupt church at that time.

[Serkat]

Loving everyone is stupid advice though. You shouldn't love everyone.

[ChaybaChayba]

You can interpret the Bible however you want to. Look at the Islam and Christianity... The Koran and the Bible are practicly the same book, but the religion is completely different, people just twist the words so they fit what they want to believe in. Loving everyone is stupid advice though. You shouldn't love everyone. Yeah you're completely right, you should hate everyone, that is good advice! Wow you're so clever man. You're like the new Jesus.

[Sandform]

Yeah you're completely right, you should hate everyone, that is good advice! Wow you're so clever man. You're like the new Jesus. Troll. Because the only alternative to not loving everyone is to hate everyone.

[ChaybaChayba]

Troll. Because the only alternative to not loving everyone is to hate everyone. My point is... Whats the point in hating anyone at all? The only alternative to not loving everyone is atleast hating someone. Which will negativily affect your life. How will loving everyone negativily affect your life?

[SomeDreamer]

The only alternative to not loving everyone is atleast hating someone. Which will negativily affect your life. I hate a lot of people Like terrorists, people killing for no good reason, racists and so on, you get the idea Certainly doesn't have any negativ effect on my life, I'm quite happy ^^ If someone came up to my face and pointed a gun to my head I certainly wouldn't love that person, either. I also hate people who's mocking others because they think it's cool/ they're bored (bullies etc)... I could go on, but will stop here. How will loving everyone negativily affect your life? Well if someone came up to me and said that they loved terrorists I would tell them to get some help. Just as an example I don't believe it's possible for anyone to love everyone Every person hates some types of people... could be for actions they chose to do etc Are you telling me that there's not a single person/type of person that you don't hate? Not that I would have anything against that, although would like an explanation as to why you don't.

[Sandform]

My point is... Whats the point in hating anyone at all? The only alternative to not loving everyone is atleast hating someone. Which will negativily affect your life. How will loving everyone negativily affect your life? No...not loving everyone doesn't mean you have to hate anyone. There are plenty of people who I neither love nor hate silRay.

[ChaybaChayba]

No...not loving everyone doesn't mean you have to hate anyone. There are plenty of people who I neither love nor hate silRay. Yes agreed and I knew you would reply this, but I just tried to keep it simple and short. My point still remains. I hate a lot of people Like terrorists, people killing for no good reason, racists and so on, you get the idea Certainly doesn't have any negativ effect on my life, I'm quite happy ^^ If someone came up to my face and pointed a gun to my head I certainly wouldn't love that person, either. Well if someone came up to me and said that they loved terrorists I would tell them to get some help Just as an example I don't believe it's possible for anyone to love everyone Every person hates some types of people... could be for actions they chose to do etc Why would you hate terrorists? You do realize terrorists think they are doing good? They are just ignorant, they don't realize what they are doing. There's no point in hating them, because, the reason why you hate terrorists is because they hate you and want to kill you. But don't you see... in the eyes of terrorists you the western person who forcefully invades his country to steal recourses and colonize the shit out of it is the terrorist, and must be killed. So the terrorists hate you and start doing bad stuff to you, because they hate you and see you as the terrorist. You see how hate leads to bad things? If terrorists would love everyone you would never even had a reason to hate terrorists, because they would not start bombing our towers, because without hate, they would have no reason to kill us! Hate creates the vicious circle of evil. This was the message of Jesus. It also took me a while before realizing, but yeah I stopped hating people so I can tell from personal experience it's definitely possible.

[Serkat]

How will loving everyone negativily affect your life? You get killed.

[ChaybaChayba]

You get killed. Me being alive proves you wrong. But then again, did you even try to make a point?

[SomeDreamer]

Why would you hate terrorists? You do realize terrorists think they are doing good? They are just ignorant, they don't realize what they are doing. I'm fully aware that terrorists think they're doing something good when they wander around killing innocent people. Although I'm pretty sure they know exactly what they're doing, they just look at it from a completely different perspective. There's no point in hating them, because, the reason why you hate terrorists is because they hate you and want to kill you. But don't you see... in the eyes of terrorists you the western person who forcefully invades his country to steal recourses and colonize the shit out of it is the terrorist, and must be killed. So the terrorists hate you and start doing bad stuff to you, because they hate you and see you as the terrorist. Talking from an individual perspective there would be absolutely no point in loving them, either. Wouldn't change anything. Actually, I couldn't possible see how it could be possible to straight forward love someone like that. There's no real point in talking about it as an overall thing that if everyone didn't hate, it would all be good etc. I made my own statements based on hate being part of human nature, and probably always will be. Sure I could see the point of not hating when seeing it from the bigger picture, but I don't think there's any reason in doing so in the first place, because hate is a part of human nature. Always has been, and problaly always will be. And when there's no point in looking it as a "what if" from the bigger picture, you zoom into the individual human. And as an individual there would be no point or reason to just simply love everyone around you. I'm not saying that you absolutely have to hate someone. You don't have to hate terrorists, you could simply look at it as you do and be more neutral about it looking from both perspectives, sure, but does that make you love terrorists, or just simply kinda understanding them and being more neutral towards them? I guess that's the point I'm trying to make. You don't have to hate someone, you could simply be neutral, but loving everyone is just weird Of course following my above statements there isn't really a point in hating since that won't change anything either, but simply being neutral towards something. But there's still a difference about being neutral and loving, of course. Still... I wouldn't have a neutral oppinion about... let's say someone who tried to murder me. I would hate him/her and wouldn't care about his perspective and side of things Besides, when I say I hate terrorists it's because I strongly disagree with the way they handle things, and their perspective on how it needs to be done, such a strong disagreement that I... well, hate them I might try to see it from their side of things, but that doesn't mean I have to understand it or that it does justice for what they do. I hoped that kinda made sense ^^ hehe. I like discussions like this.... makes you think just a bit deeper

[Serkat]

Me being alive proves you wrong. That's stupid.

[Taosaur]

Loving everyone is stupid advice though. You shouldn't love everyone. If you have spiritual aspirations and an analytical mindset, don't worry about loving everyone. Just pursue a true understanding of the human experience and/or reality in general, removing any obstacles in your own mind. If you make any progress at all, you'll end up loving everyone in spite of yourself. Likewise, someone more focused on relationships and relief of suffering might care nothing for knowledge and vision, yet the mind attained through compassion will know and see. Even lacking all spiritual aspiration, wishing only to know happiness and be free from suffering to the extent possible in an "unexamined life," you'll get more mileage and less grief out of "love everyone" than "trust no one."

[really]

Loving everyone is stupid advice though. You shouldn't love everyone. How is this stupid?

[Serkat]

You get killed.

[really]

You get killed. Hmm?

[Taosaur]

You get killed. In the majority of cases, no. Whereas if you amass belongings and carefully protect yourself from perceived threats, both physical and ideological, then you never live at all.

[ChaybaChayba]

I'm fully aware that terrorists think they're doing something good when they wander around killing innocent people. Although I'm pretty sure they know exactly what they're doing, they just look at it from a completely different perspective. Talking from an individual perspective there would be absolutely no point in loving them, either. Wouldn't change anything. Actually, I couldn't possible see how it could be possible to straight forward love someone like that. There's no real point in talking about it as an overall thing that if everyone didn't hate, it would all be good etc. I made my own statements based on hate being part of human nature, and probably always will be. Sure I could see the point of not hating when seeing it from the bigger picture, but I don't think there's any reason in doing so in the first place, because hate is a part of human nature. Always has been, and problaly always will be. And when there's no point in looking it as a "what if" from the bigger picture, you zoom into the individual human. And as an individual there would be no point or reason to just simply love everyone around you. I'm not saying that you absolutely have to hate someone. You don't have to hate terrorists, you could simply look at it as you do and be more neutral about it looking from both perspectives, sure, but does that make you love terrorists, or just simply kinda understanding them and being more neutral towards them? I guess that's the point I'm trying to make. You don't have to hate someone, you could simply be neutral, but loving everyone is just weird Of course following my above statements there isn't really a point in hating since that won't change anything either, but simply being neutral towards something. But there's still a difference about being neutral and loving, of course. Still... I wouldn't have a neutral oppinion about... let's say someone who tried to murder me. I would hate him/her and wouldn't care about his perspective and side of things Besides, when I say I hate terrorists it's because I strongly disagree with the way they handle things, and their perspective on how it needs to be done, such a strong disagreement that I... well, hate them I might try to see it from their side of things, but that doesn't mean I have to understand it or that it does justice for what they do. I hoped that kinda made sense ^^ hehe. I like discussions like this.... makes you think just a bit deeper Hate being a part of human nature, and loving everyone just being weird aren't arguments that should keep you from doing so. You should use logic and reason, and use and do what is useful and what works. The whole point about loving everyone is a part of mental alchemy, mastery over the mind. Tweaking your mind and thoughts in order to make them as efficient as possible. It is possible to be happy each second of your life. If you're happy all the time, you will be way more productive, life will be way more fun, it's like you're changing earth into heaven. It's like living on the best drug in the world 24/7, but without any side-effects at all except the emotion of love and the feeling of happiness and excitement. Of course, this mental transmutation takes time and dedication, but it is worth it. Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery; None but ourselves can free our minds.

[SomeDreamer]

Then try and answer my question You don't have to hate terrorists, you could simply look at it as you do and be more neutral about it looking from both perspectives, sure, but does that make you love terrorists, or just simply kinda understanding them and being more neutral towards them? Do you really love terrorists, or do you just understand them? There's a difference. Also, I don't see how loving everyone will make you any more happy... it's not like I dedicate my life at hating and spend 24/7 doing so you know But if that makes you anymore happy then fine ^^ and loving everyone just being weird aren't arguments that should keep you from doing so. You should use logic and reason, and use and do what is useful and what works. In which case I do not think it's reasonable to love anyone who would wanna kill you Look at the world around you, we weren't build to love everyone, if we were, the world be a totally different place from what it is now. Sorry that you hate being part of human nature, but that's just the way it is. We weren't build to love everyone around us Personally I couldn't possible see how loving everyone would make my life any better... If it would have I'm pretty sure I would have noticed it by now... but I've never felt the need so, I'm perfectly fine. If it makes your life any better then that's good for you Also, from an evolutionary point of view loving everyone would also suck... because you'd go extinct pretty quickly I don't know about you, but for me I find all the reason for me to hate those people who picked on me many times every week for almost 9 years of my elementary school.... if you love people like that I would suggest you go find some help ^^ Just because I for example hate those people doesn't mean that I think about it every day... it doesn't affect my life in a negative way to hate them. It's just an oppinion I have about them just as oppinions I have of everything else, it doesn't fill everything I think about and doesn't get in the way of anything for me. Loving people like that would certainly be very illogical. I don't think I have anymore to chip in with on this discussion.

[juroara]

anyways. . . .get your own thread

[SomeDreamer]

anyways. . . .get your own thread I'm sorry. I'm done now hehe.