Thread: A proof for the non-existence of God

Originally Posted by Sandform

Faith is confusion.

That's not what I meant, I'll explain.

Originally Posted by Sandform

This doesn't tell me the answer to my question. I asked what does faith do for you except make you feel better? Saying "I have said it, look at my other posts, blah blah blah" isn't helpful.

It can help, but that doesn't mean that you will follow through. Same deal with God. Acceptance is up to you, the choice is yours. But whether you accept God or not doesn't change the Truth.

Originally Posted by Sandform

Either tell me in this forum what it is that makes faith useful besides feeling better, or send me links to the specific part in the other threads where you have stated what use faith has besides feeling better.

I have already answered your question. Sadly, I cannot answer what Faith efficiently is with words, it is known in ones own spiritual endeavor. It therefore could be labeled as "an understanding". Actually in most cases, to begin to look for true answers, requires Faith to motivate one. Nevertheless, Faith is a profound trust of humility toward God and his Teachers, that really one never knew anything, only God knows. One is motivated and destined by the Holy Spirit, who leads one back to ones only Creator. Faith shall bring you every fruit, one should not complain that he does not attract fruit if he does not know Faith.

Originally Posted by RedfishBluefish

Say something meaningful or GTFO.

Consider that meaning arises from your perspective.

Originally Posted by RedfishBluefish

If there is a difference between 'faith' and 'confusion', say it.

In other words, Faith is a high-consciousness understanding. Confusion, as I had put it, is a low-consciousness understanding.

*Sandform thought he had Faith, but if he did, he wouldn't have made such a statement. From my awareness, he had Confusion (in his statement) - which is why he is asking questions about Faith. What I had done, in analogy:

Person A: "I have a car, it has one wheel. (Refers to unicycle)"
Person B: (Looks at object) "No, that is actually a unicycle."
Person A: "Cars are unicycles?"
Person B: "You have never seen any cars; you now should know this is a unicycle. Cars are not at all of this nature, they have more complex moving parts, a powerful engine, and most have four wheels. etc."

*(Sandform/Person A thought he had a car, but if he did, he wouldn't have made such a statement.)

Originally Posted by RedfishBluefish

If one is not better than the other, than tell me that "if I squeeze my hands at odd intervals, god will protect me from the boogyman" is equally as valid as anything else.
Don't dodge the question.

It is equally valid with consideration to the nature of consciousness. With more focus, Confusion is valid to lower-consciousness (especially if it is unrecognized), but not to higher-consciousness.

Originally Posted by really

Same deal with God. Acceptance is up to you, the choice is yours.

Please explain how belief is a choice. I really don't understand that idea, and I can never get anybody to explain it to me. Can you choose to believe that 2 + 2 = Fish on unicycle? Can I choose to believe that I am Captain America? I keep coming across the point that belief is a choice, but nobody will explain it.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Please explain how belief is a choice. I really don't understand that idea, and I can never get anybody to explain it to me. Can you choose to believe that 2 + 2 = Fish on unicycle? Can I choose to believe that I am Captain America? I keep coming across the point that belief is a choice, but nobody will explain it.

Believing means taking something as true. So therefor, you choose for yourself wether this or that is true. You don't need proof or anything, it's only a matter of choice.

For example I claim I have 6 fingers instead of 5! You can't possibly know wether this is true or not. So in order to make an image of me inside your head right now, you will have to make the choice wether you believe I have 6 fingers or not. However, theres also a third choice. You can decide that it's impossible for you to know wether I have 6 or 5 fingers, and you can decide therefor, it's impossible to create an accurate image of me inside your head. This reasoning would be most logical, but in the end, this reasoning will prove to be most detremental for your understanding of how this world works. Because choosing doubt over believing will result in you ending up with no concept on that particular subject at all. Choosing to believe will increase the vividness of your imagination of this world, and afterall, when awake, the perception of this world is nothing but imagination. Just like your dreams can be more vivid, so can real life turn more vivid.

You have two choices to deal with any type of information.
A: You believe it to be true or not.
B: You doubt it to be true or not.

Nothing can be absolutely proven in this world, so you need to make choices constantly wether you believe or not. Wether it be the belief that God exists, or that your car runs on fuel, they both contribute to your understanding of how this world works. You can choose to believe you are captain america. If that will help you to fulfill your goal in life, it is a good choice. Believing lets you choose for yourself wether something is true or not, based on how useful this something is in your life. Doubt does nothing at all. It just doubts and stays in doubt forever. It does nothing with the received information, and does not incorporate the received information into your system of beliefs which you use to understand the workings of this world.

Believing is a matter of choice wether something is true or not. Believe does not need any logical or scientific support. Believing is like a tool we use to create a concept of this world, knowing very well it is impossible to proof anything at all. And it's impossible to know wether this concept of this world is true or not. Therefor you need to choose to believe in it, and this choice will create determination and persistence, the key to reach your goals in life.

Originally Posted by ChaybaChayba

Believing means taking something as true. So therefor, you choose for yourself wether this or that is true. You don't need proof or anything, it's only a matter of choice.

For example I claim I have 6 fingers instead of 5! You can't possibly know wether this is true or not. So in order to make an image of me inside your head right now, you will have to make the choice wether you believe I have 6 fingers or not. However, theres also a third choice. You can decide that it's impossible for you to know wether I have 6 or 5 fingers, and you can decide therefor, it's impossible to create an accurate image of me inside your head. This reasoning would be most logical, but in the end, this reasoning will prove to be most detremental for your understanding of how this world works. Because choosing doubt over believing will result in you ending up with no concept on that particular subject at all. Choosing to believe will increase the vividness of your imagination of this world, and afterall, when awake, the perception of this world is nothing but imagination. Just like your dreams can be more vivid, so can real life turn more vivid.

You have two choices to deal with any type of information.
A: You believe it to be true or not.
B: You doubt it to be true or not.

Nothing can be absolutely proven in this world, so you need to make choices constantly wether you believe or not. Wether it be the belief that God exists, or that your car runs on fuel, they both contribute to your understanding of how this world works. You can choose to believe you are captain america. If that will help you to fulfill your goal in life, it is a good choice. Believing lets you choose for yourself wether something is true or not, based on how useful this something is in your life. Doubt does nothing at all. It just doubts and stays in doubt forever. It does nothing with the received information, and does not incorporate the received information into your system of beliefs which you use to understand the workings of this world.

Believing is a matter of choice wether something is true or not. Believe does not need any logical or scientific support. Believing is like a tool we use to create a concept of this world, knowing very well it is impossible to proof anything at all. And it's impossible to know wether this concept of this world is true or not. Therefor you need to choose to believe in it, and this choice will create determination and persistence, the key to reach your goals in life.

So you're seriously telling me you can choose to think it is true that there is a teapot orbiting the moon piloted by an invisible pink unicorn and escorted by the flying spaghetti monster ? Just like that?


If you can I honestly didn't know humans that sheeplike and dim existed.

Originally Posted by ChaybaChayba

Believing means taking something as true. So therefor, you choose for yourself wether this or that is true. You don't need proof or anything, it's only a matter of choice.

What Omicron said... And I have a challenge for you that not one person I know of has ever passed. Go two days truly and honestly believing that 2 + 2 = 5 and then tell me what it was like. I really want to read about your experience. While you are doing that, believe that you are a billionaire movie star. Tell me how I can believe I am one too.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

What Omicron said... And I have a challenge for you that not one person I know of has ever passed. Go two days truly and honestly believing that 2 + 2 = 5 and then tell me what it was like. I really want to read about your experience. While you are doing that, believe that you are a billionaire movie star. Tell me how I can believe I am one too.

When you dream, you can also truly believe that you are a billionaire movie star. And how would believing in 2+2=5 improve my understanding of this world?

Originally Posted by Omicron

So you're seriously telling me you can choose to think it is true that there is a teapot orbiting the moon piloted by an invisible pink unicorn and escorted by the flying spaghetti monster ? Just like that?


If you can I honestly didn't know humans that sheeplike and dim existed.

Of course I can. If that concept will improve my understanding of the world, I will choose to believe it. But please do explain me how a teapot orbiting the moon will clarify how this world works?

And this is the opposite of sheeplike. I look at all the possible things I can believe in, and I pick out the stuff that I personally find that will improve my understanding of the world. I choose myself what I believe in based on my logical mind. The more useful things I pick out to believe in, the better my cocnept of this world will become.

Anyway, judging from your posts, I don't think you understand what I'm talking about at all.

Originally Posted by ChaybaChayba

When you dream, you can also truly believe that you are a billionaire movie star. And how would believing in 2+2=5 improve my understanding of this world?

I did not mention dreams, and I did not say believing 2 + 2 = 5 would improve your understanding of this world. I simply challenged you to choose to believe that 2 + 2 =5 and that you are a billionaire movie star. Please try it right now. Can you do it or can you not?

I fail to see how believing in that will help to understand this world. I said I choose myself what to believe in in order to improve my concept of this world. Believing in random stuff doesn't make any sense at all. You need to give me a whole system to believe in, not just some simple random facts. Of course I can do it, but it serves no purpose at all.

Originally Posted by ChaybaChayba

I fail to see how believing in that will help to understand this world. I said I choose myself what to believe in in order to improve my concept of this world. Believing in random stuff doesn't make any sense at all. You need to give me a whole system to believe in, not just some simple random facts. Of course I can do it, but it serves no purpose at all.

You said it is possible, so I challenged you to do it. Now you are bringing in factors I am not interested in. Choose to believe the things I talked about so I can learn about your experience. Don't tell me you are not interested in getting me to understand how belief is a choice. You keep responding to me about it, so you are interested. My challenge still stands, and you and I both know you will never pass it. It is impossible. Belief is not a choice.

Originally Posted by Omicron

If God is truly all powerful, he could do it.


Also two easier points to argue against:


1) We actually can become stronger people without having to contract diseases and get pwned by nazis, for example we can become stronger people from working together on a team to fulfill a purpose, we don't suffer but we still develop as people just in the same way and there is no need for all the horrendous nastiness of the world.

2) There are clear examples of where there can be no possible way of anybody or anythign becoming stronger from pain. One such example is if there is a deer in an isolated forest, alone, lightning strikes a branch which falls on the deer and crushes it. It doesn't die for a few days, and no other creature comes into contact with it. The whole time it is in immense pain before finally dying and rotting away. Considering the size and history of the earth, this situation has liekly happened many many times, and really, where is the soul growth or strength for anything from this senseless pain?

[There are human examples too, in case you don't think animals have a soul or whatever]

For example: if I am a deer and I get chased down by a mountain lion and killed my last thought in this life is "I wish I could run faster." In my next life I will be able to run faster. This is a metaphor so don't take it too literally. As a human if I spend my life not being as compassionate as I could've and I felt a lack of love on my last days and my last thoughts in this life are "I wish I was a more compassionate person. I wish I used my lifetime to cultivate compassion and wisdom." In my next life I will most likely be a little more compassion

Originally Posted by really

It can You can believe it helps, but that doesn't mean that it does. you will follow through. Same deal with God. Acceptance is up to you, the choice is yours. But whether you accept God or not doesn't change the Truth.



I have already answered your question. I have not answered your question. Sadly, I cannot answer what Faith efficiently is with words, it is known in ones own spiritual endeavor. It therefore could be labeled as "an understanding" "delusion". Actually in most cases, to begin to look for true answers, requires Faith to motivate one. You wont believe unless you believe first. Nevertheless, Faith is a profound trust of humility toward God and his Teachers, that really one never knew anything, only because God knows is a fairy tale. One is motivated and destined by the Holy Spirit, who leads one back to ones only Creator. Everything is bull shit. Faith shall bring you every fruit nothing, one should not complain that he does not attract fruit if he does not know Faith. Stop asking me what value faith has if you don't have faith in the first place!

I took the liberty of EFT.

So can you please provide me with the value of faith again? Besides you know feeling better. Do not respond by saying "I have given you an answer." Because you have not, you have only said, repetitively that you have.

What value, aside from feeling better, does having faith add to life?

Just for once more, if you have provided me with an answer to my question, do it again for me please, or at least quote yourself.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Please explain how belief is a choice. I really don't understand that idea, and I can never get anybody to explain it to me. Can you choose to believe that 2 + 2 = Fish on unicycle? Can I choose to believe that I am Captain America? I keep coming across the point that belief is a choice, but nobody will explain it.

The belief depends upon reasoning, and reasoning depends upon supposed knowledge and context of information etc. It is out of choice because it is out of judgment.

Originally Posted by Sandform

[...]
Just for once more, if you have provided me with an answer to my question, do it again for me please, or at least quote yourself.

Originally Posted by really

Acceptance is up to you, the choice is yours. But whether you accept God or not doesn't change the Truth.

Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut

For example: if I am a deer and I get chased down by a mountain lion and killed my last thought in this life is "I wish I could run faster." In my next life I will be able to run faster. This is a metaphor so don't take it too literally. As a human if I spend my life not being as compassionate as I could've and I felt a lack of love on my last days and my last thoughts in this life are "I wish I was a more compassionate person. I wish I used my lifetime to cultivate compassion and wisdom." In my next life I will most likely be a little more compassion

I wasn't talking about reincarnation or buddhism or whatnot, I was talking about christian theology.

Originally Posted by really

quotage

What?


The question was:
"what is the value of faith other than comfort"


Your answer was
"You can choose to accept god but it doesn't change the truth"


That answer is not a value, which the question asked for


SO we can safely assume unless you have anything new to tell us that you do not know an actual value of faith other than comfort.

Originally Posted by Omicron

What?


The question was:
"what is the value of faith other than comfort"


Your answer was
"You can choose to accept god but it doesn't change the truth"


That answer is not a value, which the question asked for


SO we can safely assume unless you have anything new to tell us that you do not know an actual value of faith other than comfort.

What is the value of any belief? Faith really is just another word for 'trust in one's own beliefs'.

Originally Posted by Sandform

Just for once more, if you have provided me with an answer to my question, do it again for me please, or at least quote yourself.

Originally Posted by really

Acceptance is up to you, the choice is yours. But whether you accept God or not doesn't change the Truth.

Well I don't really know how to argue with that Really.

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

What is the value of any belief? Faith really is just another word for 'trust in one's own beliefs'.

Well no...if you believe in the fact that medicine helps you when your sick, and exercise can make you healthy, you get quite a few benefits from trust in your belief...

Faith only makes you feel better. Which is fine.

Originally Posted by ChaybaChayba

...You need to give me a whole system to believe in, not just some simple random facts. Of course I can do it, but it serves no purpose at all.

Ok do this then. Jump in front of a speeding car while believing that cars don't exist. If you believe as you claim, then doing this won't be a problem. Or take a pencil and stab your eye, but before doing that, believe that pencils don't exist. Nothing should stop you when doing any of those things, if you can really chose to believe. It is very likely that you won't be able to believe in something as obvious as cars and pencils and thus you'll think twice (I hope) before doing those things.

To me it's obvious that gods and other religious stuff is just ignorance + human imagination. Even though I acknowledge the possibility of gods' existance, no matter how hard I try, I really don't see myself believing in anything without proof. I guess a christian can choose to believe something a bit different and convert to islam easily, an atheist won't find it as easy.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

You said it is possible, so I challenged you to do it. Now you are bringing in factors I am not interested in. Choose to believe the things I talked about so I can learn about your experience. Don't tell me you are not interested in getting me to understand how belief is a choice. You keep responding to me about it, so you are interested. My challenge still stands, and you and I both know you will never pass it. It is impossible. Belief is not a choice.

Belief might not be a choice to you. However, I have advanced to the next level of thinking, and believing has become a choice for me. I don't think anymore in terms of good and evil, right or wrong.

If you choose not to believe me, you might choose to believe Descartes. Read Descartes if you're interested in this subject. Our whole modern philosophy is based on his ideas.

Originally Posted by Descartes, Fourth meditation, page 402

Wether or not I acquire a particular belief is (or can be), in a perfectly unproblematic way, a matter of choice-something that I do, or do not do, quit freely.

Originally Posted by ChaybaChayba

Belief might not be a choice to you. However, I have advanced to the next level of thinking, and believing has become a choice for me.

Sure, slap your face as much as you want, but I think Descartes' detailed argumentation is much more convincing than yours.

So you are actually capable of willfully believing that all automobiles can speak French? My highest regards to you, sir.

And you are actually capable of wilfully believing that you can't choose your own beliefs. It's pretty obvious thats what you choose to belief in.

You really don't see the paradox in this? Maybe removing your hands from before your eyes will help.

Originally Posted by ChaybaChayba

Belief might not be a choice to you. However, I have advanced to the next level of thinking, and believing has become a choice for me. I don't think anymore in terms of good and evil, right or wrong.

If you choose not to believe me, you might choose to believe Descartes. Read Descartes if you're interested in this subject. Our whole modern philosophy is based on his ideas.

Enough of your appealing to authority.


Although very good for his time and certainly a founder of modern philosophy many of descartes' ideas are very problematic and contradictory.

Quoting him doesn't something so.

If it did I could just quote him when he says the mind is connected to the body via the pineal gland in the brain, which we know is false.

Enough!

Originally Posted by Korittke

So you are actually capable of willfully believing that all automobiles can speak French? My highest regards to you, sir.

bumping fo a direct answer from chayba.