Thread: "Choosing to Believe" 2 + 2 = 5: The Interviews

I don't have the attention span to read all this (sorry), so I'm just going to post this:

"We turn up the volume on the voices in our heads and try to make sense of the babble. On a journey around the country to understand how emotion and logic interact to guide us through our options, we ponder how we get through the million choices and decisions we make every day. Forget free will, some important decisions could come down to a steaming cup of coffee." http://www.wnyc.org/shows/radiolab/episodes/2008/11/14

Click "Listen to the whole show".

But mark is right. If you say "I can't chose..." then belief isn't a choice. That's what the whole thing is about, if it's possible to chose beliefs freely... it obviously isn't.

What's being asked of me here is for me to switch a positive belief, he's not asking me to choose to believe something fresh. He's asking me to switch my current belief to something I think is absurd. Let's say I know nothing of mathematical equations and he requested that I choose to believe 2+2=5 I can do one of two things.

Assert the positive belief that is is true.
Assert the positive belief that is is false.

And either case I'm making a choice to believe one or the other.

It's not that I cannot make a choice, the fact is simply, I've made a choice by asserting the positive belief that the claim is ridiculous so I'm in disbelief. unless my disbelief can be proven false. I will continue to stay convicted to it.

Ne-yo, you seem to agree with us that belief is not a choice, except you think it is a choice when it comes to matters in which a person has never had a belief. So you at least believe that nobody with a non-Christian religion could ever make the choice to believe the concept of Christianity? The only people who could are people who have never had religious views? Who are those people? Babies and toddlers?

Let's talk about the babies and toddlers situation. I'll introduce you to an issue you might have never dealt with before. Do you know specifically how Napoleon became the ruler of France? If not, then choose right now to believe he was elected. Can you do that?

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Ne-yo, you seem to agree with us that belief is not a choice, except you think it is a choice when it comes to matters in which a person has never had a belief. So you at least believe that nobody with a non-Christian religion could ever make the choice to believe the concept of Christianity? The only people who could are people who have never had religious views? Who are those people? Babies and toddlers?

I do not agree with you. Things are not always what they appear to be. I never said I "think" it's a choice when it comes to matters which a person has never had a belief in something. I said I KNOW it's a choice is able to be established once that person is exposed to something they've never been exposed to before. The babies and toddlers are an excellent point. They don't have an opinion either way until they are exposed to religion and at that moment they have 3 categories to select their belief from. Positive, false, unsure. The last one is "lack of belief" in it's most true form. You said belief is not a choice. Isn't it pretty amazing that I believe that God exist and you're in disbelief.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Let's talk about the babies and toddlers situation. I'll introduce you to an issue you might have never dealt with before. Do you know specifically how Napoleon became the ruler of France? If not, then choose right now to believe he was elected. Can you do that?

\

Try another one, I know enough history of Bonaparte to understand that he was not elected to become the ruler of France.

Originally Posted by Ne-yo

It's not that I cannot make a choice, the fact is simply, I've made a choice by asserting the positive belief that the claim is ridiculous so I'm in disbelief. unless my disbelief can be proven false. I will continue to stay convicted to it.

But the whole point of being able to chose your beliefs is to be able to chose ridiculous, unbelievable beliefs.

When you have information on a certain subject, you form a belief based on that information.

To go from this formed belief to another belief would mean choosing a belief. And that's all there is to it. I know that 2+2=4. It is what I believe. If this is belief #1 and if belief #2 is 2+2=5... then we can say that I cannot chose a belief, because I cannot chose #2.

Originally Posted by Bonsay

But the whole point of being able to chose your beliefs is to be able to chose ridiculous, unbelievable beliefs.

Ridiculous claims are put into certain categories everyday by people. If a claim seems ridiculous for a person then what happens here is that, they apply a positive belief that that claim is false. If they apply a false to that claim then yes they have actually made a choice. The choice would be the belief that the claim is false. Or, they actually may be undecided and pending further information to support on rather or not they would categorize that claim as true (belief) false (disbelief).

Originally Posted by Bonsay

When you have information on a certain subject, you form a belief based on that information.

I completely agree with this. I have information that tells me that 2+2=5 is ridiculous, so I formed a belief in lieu of this information. I asserted the positive belief that this claim is false.

Originally Posted by Bonsay

To go from this formed belief to another belief would mean choosing a belief. And that's all there is to it. I know that 2+2=4. It is what I believe. If this is belief #1 and if belief #2 is 2+2=5... then we can say that I cannot chose a belief, because I cannot chose #2.

That's switching a belief, yes people can switch beliefs all the time. However, regarding something that seems absurd to someone doesn't mean they don't act on it, that is not what I am conveying here because we act on everything that we are aware of and whatever we are not aware of we do not act on it. Just because I did not choose to believe 2+2= 5 doesn't mean I did nothing. When I decided not to choose a ridiculous claim, I made an action on it at that instance. That action in itself is choice driven. I made a choice to positively believe that 2 +2 = 5 is false. I don't know why you guys think that we can't make a choice to believe something is a false. You did it, UM has done it and every other Atheist on this site has done so.

Then choose to believe an answer to each of these three questions without doing any research. Just come up with an answer for each one and believe it.

1. What is the second largest city in Mississippi?
2. What was the name of my first dog?
3. In what year was my maternal grandfather born?

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Then choose to believe an answer to each of these three questions without doing any research. Just come up with an answer for each one and believe it.

I can come up with an answer for each one but the fact is this. I am not going to be positively certain on my answer so no matter what answer I choose I'm going to be undecided until evidence is presented so that I can make a positive choice, but I'll answer anyway just to see where you go with this.


1. What is the second largest city in Mississippi? Biloxi


2. What was the name of my first dog? Max


3. In what year was my maternal grandfather born? 1934

Originally Posted by Ne-yo

I can come up with an answer for each one but the fact is this. I am not going to be positively certain on my answer so no matter what answer I choose I'm going to be undecided until evidence is presented so that I can make a positive choice, but I'll answer anyway just to see where you go with this.


1. What is the second largest city in Mississippi? Biloxi


2. What was the name of my first dog? Max


3. In what year was my maternal grandfather born? 1934

You said you can choose to believe things if you never before had a belief on the topics they concern. Didn't you? Well... Choose to believe those answers. Can you?

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

You said you can choose to believe things if you never before had a belief on the topics they concern. Didn't you? Well... Choose to believe those answers. Can you?

In all honesty out of the 3 there is 1 that I definitely believe right now and two are undecided and pending further evidence.


1. What is the second largest city in Mississippi? Biloxi

This one I positively believe is true.


2. What was the name of my first dog? Max

This one I'm undecided on.


3. In what year was my maternal grandfather born? 1934

This one I'm undecided on.

However, the other 2 I'm undecided on shouldn't really matter you have 1 out of 3 so we can move on.

Originally Posted by Maestro

No you won't, unless you add something else into the equation; that being food and water. That woman isn't going to have the energy to conceive that child, and even if she does, he's going to die right off the bat unless he gets some food and water.

Yet solution is easy. The woman will give birth to four children, but during her pregnancy she eats the other people and uses their skulls to gather water.

In the end there is still five of them.

Ingenious yet quite macabre.

Originally Posted by Ne-yo

This one I'm undecided on.

Well quit slacking of and decide. Make a choice to believe it.

I'm sure it's okay for UM if I'm undecided on 2 of 3. He only needs one anyway to try and prove his point. I asserted the positive belief in number 1 and I'll wait and see where he goes with this.

Originally Posted by Ne-yo

Ridiculous claims are put into certain categories everyday by people. If a claim seems ridiculous for a person then what happens here is that, they apply a positive belief that that claim is false. If they apply a false to that claim then yes they have actually made a choice. The choice would be the belief that the claim is false. Or, they actually may be undecided and pending further information to support on rather or not they would categorize that claim as true (belief) false (disbelief).

So you're saying that choice doesn't exist on the level of deciding whether something is true or false, but when you're deciding whether you'll say something is false or unknowable, so whether you'll make an absolute declaration of belief on something or not.

If that is true than all I can say is that this answer is, in my opinion, just an evasion of the question. At least in relation to the circumstances in which this debate started:

This "is belief a choice" was aimed at the debates where somebody says "You'll go to hell because you're choosing not to believe...". So even if you decide for the matter of God to be "unknown", you're not believing. Which is, for God, exactly the same as believing that God doesn't exist (which is where, if I understand you're argument, the choice of belief is really present), meaning you'll go to hell.

In light of the information I have, I can only make one conclusion, I can only have one belief. If someone wants me to chose another belief while having the same information is, "ironically", the same as demanding that I say a+1=3, where a=1 for me, while for the christian a=2. It doesn't make sense from my point of view, although I acknowledge fully that it makes sense for the Christian.

Originally Posted by Ne-yo

I completely agree with this. I have information that tells me that 2+2=5 is ridiculous, so I formed a belief in lieu of this information. I asserted the positive belief that this claim is false.

So you consider this a choice of belief. While I still don't consider it a choice. There is only one possible conclusion and I can only form one belief based on the information I have; what I understand 2+2 means.

What I understand a choice of belief (not a formation of belief) is the ability to jump from one belief to another, independent of the information I have.

Originally Posted by Ne-yo

That's switching a belief, yes people can switch beliefs all the time. However, regarding something that seems absurd to someone doesn't mean they don't act on it, that is not what I am conveying here because we act on everything that we are aware of and whatever we are not aware of we do not act on it. Just because I did not choose to believe 2+2= 5 doesn't mean I did nothing. When I decided not to choose a ridiculous claim, I made an action on it at that instance. That action in itself is choice driven. I made a choice to positively believe that 2 +2 = 5 is false. I don't know why you guys think that we can't make a choice to believe something is a false. You did it, UM has done it and every other Atheist on this site has done so.

Well as I said. I agree that what we usually call choice is present here.
But for the matter at hand, calling something that is inseparable from the information and thus deterministic to the formation of belief, can't in my opinion be called a choice. A certain kind of thinking and a certain kind of information will always lead to the same belief, so I don't call this choice. The word choice implies some form of free will: Will you choose the apple on the left or the apple on the right? The problem here is that you can't use the word choice when you ask that question, if there is no apple on the right!

This is not so relevant to the discussion at hand, but since this was the original catalyst to this thread and the real practical problem:
If I'm to be sent to hell for my beliefs, it wasn't because I chose hell or because I chose not to believe in a god, but because I had formed a belief based on the information I had and the specific thinking processes I can operate with. On some level, yes I made a choice, but it was completely determined by the factors I described before. If anyone is to be seriously blamed for this, it's the original source, whether it is the big bang, something before the big bang, some soul with free will, or even a god. I don't believe in souls with free will, so you see why I don't use the word choice or take the blame for this universal problem.

Originally Posted by Ne-yo

I'm sure it's okay for UM if I'm undecided on 2 of 3. He only needs one anyway to try and prove his point. I asserted the positive belief in number 1 and I'll wait and see where he goes with this.

Nope, that's not going to cut it. I challenged you to choose to believe all three. When you were in school, did you turn in tests and say, "I answered that question. Grade me on just that one."? Show me the power of choice.

I believe it since that is the common system most of the world uses and I get to communicate with lot more ease if I use the same system instead of inventing a new one for me.

Not that it would have any difference if I didn't, the subject isn't that interesting.

2.5+2.5 equals five.
I win.
But isn't it the same with atheist, in Christian's eyes. You choose to believe that God doesn't exist.

Originally Posted by Bonsay

So you're saying that choice doesn't exist on the level of deciding whether something is true or false, but when you're deciding whether you'll say something is false or unknowable, so whether you'll make an absolute declaration of belief on something or not.

It goes both ways choice is to believe or not to believe, it's as simple as that.

Originally Posted by Bonsay

If that is true than all I can say is that this answer is, in my opinion, just an evasion of the question. At least in relation to the circumstances in which this debate started:

You act as if this debate is strictly governed by a set or prefix rules.

Originally Posted by Bonsay

This "is belief a choice" was aimed at the debates where somebody says "You'll go to hell because you're choosing not to believe...". So even if you decide for the matter of God to be "unknown", you're not believing. Which is, for God, exactly the same as believing that God doesn't exist (which is where, if I understand you're argument, the choice of belief is really present), meaning you'll go to hell.

The area in bold is the focus point. You can't decide to make something you know, unknown to yourself. The moment you were exposed to the information of God you made a decision to either believe that he exist or believe that he doesn't exist. Or, maybe you're just unsure and you're pending further information to allow you to make a belief. That other stuff regarding hell you mentioned sounds like some personal issues you have.

Originally Posted by Bonsay

In light of the information I have, I can only make one conclusion, I can only have one belief. If someone wants me to chose another belief while having the same information is, "ironically", the same as demanding that I say a+1=3, where a=1 for me, while for the christian a=2. It doesn't make sense from my point of view, although I acknowledge fully that it makes sense for the Christian.

Are you saying it doesn't make sense for you to be able to make a choice between rather to believe or not believe? I don't believe that is the case for you based off your current actions.

Originally Posted by Bonsay

So you consider this a choice of belief. While I still don't consider it a choice. There is only one possible conclusion and I can only form one belief based on the information I have; what I understand 2+2 means.

In regards to the mathematically inclined yes there is only on possible conclusion with regards to 2+2 and for you and I the equation will equal 4 and we both asserted the positive belief that this is true, so we made a choice to believe that, the equation did not make the choice for us. However, for someone who is inept and indecisive about 2+2 =5, they have 2 choices.

I positively believe 2+2=5 is true - belief
I positively believe 2+2=5 is false -disbelief

Originally Posted by Bonsay

What I understand a choice of belief (not a formation of belief) is the ability to jump from one belief to another, independent of the information I have.

A formation of a belief to believe or not believe something is still a choice.

Originally Posted by Bonsay

Well as I said. I agree that what we usually call choice is present here.
But for the matter at hand, calling something that is inseparable from the information and thus deterministic to the formation of belief, can't in my opinion be called a choice.

And I mentioned this somewhere before. Predetermined scenarios do not make choices for an individual. It doesn't matter how set in stone a truth appears for that claim, the individual would ultimately still have to make a decision rather to believe or not believe.

Originally Posted by Bonsay

A certain kind of thinking and a certain kind of information will always lead to the same belief, so I don't call this choice. The word choice implies some form of free will: Will you choose the apple on the left or the apple on the right? The problem here is that you can't use the word choice when you ask that question, if there is no apple on the right!

You do realize you can also choose not to pick the apple on the left. Even if it's the only one.

Originally Posted by Bonsay

This is not so relevant to the discussion at hand, but since this was the original catalyst to this thread and the real practical problem:
If I'm to be sent to hell for my beliefs, it wasn't because I chose hell or because I chose not to believe in a god, but because I had formed a belief based on the information I had and the specific thinking processes I can operate with. On some level, yes I made a choice, but it was completely determined by the factors I described before. If anyone is to be seriously blamed for this, it's the original source, whether it is the big bang, something before the big bang, some soul with free will, or even a god. I don't believe in souls with free will, so you see why I don't use the word choice or take the blame for this universal problem.

No matter how you look at this Bonsay, sometime in your life someone said "God" to you and you made a choice and decided to assert the positive belief that God is false and if that's the case so be it. Stay true to yourself. If someone said you're going to hell because you do not believe in God, then why even entertain that? It shouldn't matter to you one way or the other in the end.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Nope, that's not going to cut it. I challenged you to choose to believe all three. When you were in school, did you turn in tests and say, "I answered that question. Grade me on just that one."? Show me the power of choice.

What difference does the other 2 make? You are challenging me to choose to believe in something and I have done that. So stop procrastinating and lets get on with this. And yes I did turn in some assignments in grade school that had some questions unanswered, why do you think that's so impossible?

Originally Posted by Ne-yo

What difference does the other 2 make? You are challenging me to choose to believe in something and I have done that. So stop procrastinating and lets get on with this. And yes I did turn in some assignments in grade school that had some questions unanswered, why do you think that's so impossible?

Your inability to choose 2 and 3 proves that choice is not the route to belief. Your Biloxi guess is based on the fact that it is the second most widely known city in Mississippi. You did not choose for it to seem like the truth. You think your guess is probably true because reality makes it seem that way.

What is your claim on why you can't choose to believe 2 or 3? Why is choice not enough?

I asked if you turned in tests and asked to be graded on just one question, not if you ever left any test questions unanswered.

Originally Posted by Ne-yo

In regards to the mathematically inclined yes there is only on possible conclusion with regards to 2+2 and for you and I the equation will equal 4 and we both asserted the positive belief that this is true, so we made a choice to believe that, the equation did not make the choice for us. However, for someone who is inept and indecisive about 2+2 =5, they have 2 choices.

I positively believe 2+2=5 is true - belief
I positively believe 2+2=5 is false -disbelief

Here it's like you summed up my argument.

Actually the equation, the way it exists in our heads, did make the choice for us. If the equation was different it would've made a completely different choice for us. It determines our belief on the matter at hand... so that's why I can't say that such a belief was chosen. Since all beliefs follow such a trend of equations which lead to an end belief, all beliefs are deterministic and not under the influence I'd call a choice. And as I said before, a choice of belief would mean switching beliefs or results without changing the equation, which looks as our example here: believing that 2+2=5.

The inept one doesn't have the information, so yes his belief can jump around all the time based on whatever at a certain point in time. In that regard he can't really take part in the "choose a belief" experiment, because the point here is to see if you can go against your nature to believe that 2+2=5, or that imran is a platypus from Jupiter, when you know or believe it isn't so.

Originally Posted by Ne-yo

No matter how you look at this Bonsay, sometime in your life someone said "God" to you and you made a choice and decided to assert the positive belief that God is false and if that's the case so be it. Stay true to yourself. If someone said you're going to hell because you do not believe in God, then why even entertain that? It shouldn't matter to you one way or the other in the end.

I agree with everything you say. Yes I understand I'm making choices, as I said in that post. But the big point I'm trying to make is that in some grand scheme of things, my declaration of belief is determined by whatever the state of my brain is at the time. Therefore it can't hold the implications some believers make up. So yes, on my existential level I decide and choose on everything that happens to me and basically experience free will, sometime more and sometime less. But as I said, this thread and discussion started with the "you don't choose god therefore hell" arguments, to which my only defense is to try to logically shoot down the argument by taking an objective stance on several different levels. That's all there is to that.

I think that people who entertain beliefs where I go to hell, or something to that extent, as extremely dangerous and detrimental to our society/civilization as a whole and not only as something to laugh at or shrug off. Ask some suicide bomber victims how much peoples beliefs matter.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Your inability to choose 2 and 3 proves that choice is not the route to belief.

No my inability to choose 2 and 3 is a result that I lack belief in 2 and 3. I haven't been exposed to either one so I am undecided pending further information. It's simple to understand we lack belief in concepts we are unaware of and as a result we are agnostic toward such claims.

As I mentioned before, we only act based upon what we do believe, not upon what we do not believe. In other words, I do something because I believe something, not because I don't believe something. If I don't believe my car is stolen, then I don't do anything, but if believe it is, I contact the police. It is not lack of belief that moves us, but belief.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Your Biloxi guess is based on the fact that it is the second most widely known city in Mississippi. You did not choose for it to seem like the truth. You think your guess is probably true because reality makes it seem that way.

It doesn't matter I made a choice I believed it. Not only that, I researched it, and found out I was wrong in my belief as Hattiesburg is claimed to be the 2nd largest. Nevertheless I believed Biloxi was and that within itself just proves that belief is a choice.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

What is your claim on why you can't choose to believe 2 or 3? Why is choice not enough?

Mostly as I stated before I lack belief in 2 and 3 and also mostly impart to all that other stuff I just mentioned up there about acting on things we are aware of. It's all pretty irrelevant the fact of the matter is simply this. I believe God exist you believe that God does not exist. We made a decision to believe or not believe. That's all that is.

Originally Posted by Bonsay

Here it's like you summed up my argument.

Actually the equation, the way it exists in our heads, did make the choice for us. If the equation was different it would've made a completely different choice for us. It determines our belief on the matter at hand... so that's why I can't say that such a belief was chosen. Since all beliefs follow such a trend of equations which lead to an end belief, all beliefs are deterministic and not under the influence I'd call a choice. And as I said before, a choice of belief would mean switching beliefs or results without changing the equation, which looks as our example here: believing that 2+2=5.

You say all beliefs are deterministic, you sound as if you believe in fate. If all beliefs were truly deterministic then why are there so many different beliefs? Why do you believe something totally different than what I believe? Are you saying neither one of us made a decision upon our beliefs, our beliefs are independently influenced outside of our scope of reasoning and determined before we are aware of anything? That doesn't make sense to me and that I do not believe.

Originally Posted by Bonsay

The inept one doesn't have the information, so yes his belief can jump around all the time based on whatever at a certain point in time. In that regard he can't really take part in the "choose a belief" experiment, because the point here is to see if you can go against your nature to believe that 2+2=5, or that imran is a platypus from Jupiter, when you know or believe it isn't so.
I agree with everything you say. Yes I understand I'm making choices, as I said in that post. But the big point I'm trying to make is that in some grand scheme of things, my declaration of belief is determined by whatever the state of my brain is at the time. Therefore it can't hold the implications some believers make up. So yes, on my existential level I decide and choose on everything that happens to me and basically experience free will, sometime more and sometime less. But as I said, this thread and discussion started with the "you don't choose god therefore hell" arguments, to which my only defense is to try to logically shoot down the argument by taking an objective stance on several different levels. That's all there is to that.

It shouldn't matter rather someone has the ability to jump from one belief to another that just supports that belief is a choice even more so. Some people are more convicted to certain beliefs than others, some people are more logically capable than others also. The inept person would be a far better example just for the simple fact that it's fresh material for that individual. Everyone starts unaware of anything and if you want to investigate rather or not we can choose to believe we must start with nothing as we did when we first entered this world and then see the results.

Originally Posted by Bonsay

I think that people who entertain beliefs where I go to hell, or something to that extent, as extremely dangerous and detrimental to our society/civilization as a whole and not only as something to laugh at or shrug off. Ask some suicide bomber victims how much peoples beliefs matter.

Well if you feel they are extremely dangerous and detrimental to our society you should do something about it. Join the military if you're in the U.S., If not create your own little militia with people who share your likeness, head out to Afghanistan and get some. Have your chance to tag and bag some suicide bombers because complaining about it isn't going to solve the issue now is it?

Originally Posted by guitarboy

2.5+2.5 equals five.
I win.
But isn't it the same with atheist, in Christian's eyes. You choose to believe that God doesn't exist.

No. What you're saying is that 3 + 3 = 5.
You should be saying 2.45 + 2.45 = 5.90 and rounded that is 2 + 2 = 5
Which is valid in inaccurate sciences (meaning everything but math), as one can only trust a number to the last valid digit. Therefore 2 + 2 = [3, 5>

Originally Posted by Ne-yo

You say all beliefs are deterministic, you sound as if you believe in fate. If all beliefs were truly deterministic then why are there so many different beliefs? Why do you believe something totally different than what I believe? Are you saying neither one of us made a decision upon our beliefs, our beliefs are independently influenced outside of our scope of reasoning and determined before we are aware of anything? That doesn't make sense to me and that I do not believe.

Yes there is fate, why not? I still haven't been given a reason to believe I'm anything else but something that arises from what seems as a determined universe. We are so different, because we are. Our neurons are wired differently because of our genes and every other minuscule variable in our environment as we live out our lives. That's why the religions that equate every person on Earth don't work, people aren't equal and that's why heaven-hell idea is wrong or at the end at least proves that God is someone who doesn't give a shit.

Originally Posted by Ne-yo

It shouldn't matter rather someone has the ability to jump from one belief to another that just supports that belief is a choice even more so. Some people are more convicted to certain beliefs than others, some people are more logically capable than others also. The inept person would be a far better example just for the simple fact that it's fresh material for that individual. Everyone starts unaware of anything and if you want to investigate rather or not we can choose to believe we must start with nothing as we did when we first entered this world and then see the results.

The only thing the indecisive person supports, is that a person who doesn't have his information or his thinking determined can't hold a specific belief. As I said before, we're talking about different concepts. Everybody here knows that anybody else can believe anything else under certain circumstances... give me a lobotomy, pump me up with drugs, brainwash me or indoctrinate me as a child and maybe I'll join some cult... that's not the question here. Actually your example of "we have to start as we did when we first entered the world" is more supportive of my claim than yours, since it's obvious that the majority inherits the beliefs and practices of their parents. Which proves how "choice of belief" isn't really a choice but something determined - in this case by our upbringing.

The question is whether a person who has a strong, supported belief can instantly choose another one without having proper reasons. And the answer is clearly no, normal people can't chose to believe they are a millionaire or that they can fly or that 2+2=5. I can't do it and that's what this thread is here for. To interview those who claim they can choose beliefs.

Originally Posted by Ne-yo

Well if you feel they are extremely dangerous and detrimental to our society you should do something about it. Join the military if you're in the U.S., If not create your own little militia with people who share your likeness, head out to Afghanistan and get some. Have your chance to tag and bag some suicide bombers because complaining about it isn't going to solve the issue now is it?

Why should I do something about it? I'm not trying to be some sick ideal of an atheist who puts believers into camps and kills them. The situation here is beyond control, so either religion will die by itself in X number of years, or it will not. I'm not somebody who wants to go to some old lady and preach how her whole life is a delusion, I'm just informing you on how I see the grand picture and the effect religions have in the world. Some kill albinos to make love potions, others burn witches, some creationists want to pull science back into the Middle Ages... excuse me for expecting something more worthy of a 21. century. But yeah, that's life.