Is Belief a Choice?

**Naiya** · 10-21-2009 05:18 AM

Just as the title says. Can you choose to believe something? Choose to not believe it? Or are beliefs things which we can only change through much mental/physical/emotional work/experience?

There are things about my old belief system which still haunt me. Though I don't believe in God, I still feel emotional about deconverting and I am often angry at God for, well, not existing. It's a complex feeling. I suspect that it may be that I didn't resolve my anger with God before I stopped believing, and so it is left unresolved with no one to place it on.

So how can how make yourself stop believing, or change your beliefs? Is being an atheist a choice?

For me, this was not a choice--it was a realization of the truth. Not necessarily the objective Truth; MY truth that I did not really believe in God, and did not believe God could help me because he doesn't exist.

**Sisyphus50** · 10-21-2009 05:54 AM

Belief or lack there of is, in my mind, the culmination of your experiences, available information, and your evaluation of that data.

I was never really a religious person, but I was very wishy washy about the existence of gods until I was about 16 years old. As a hold over from that mind set I still say a silent prayer whenever I see an ambulance drive past with its lights blaring, hoping the person inside is OK. I know I'm not actually praying for that person, because I have no such belief in prayer. I suppose it's just an extension of empathy for my fellow man.

That and my mother used to slap my head whenever I saw an ambulance drive past and would say "another one bites the dust". Negative reinforcement works :thumbsup:

**grasshoppa** · 10-21-2009 05:59 AM

I'm waiting for UM's reply. I've seen him talk about this before, but now there's a whole thread devoted to it!

**Naiya** · 10-21-2009 06:13 AM

Cool. This is kind of a philosophical question, so there isn't really a "right" answer. But just for the record, I don't think belief is a solid choice in that you can't really force yourself to believe in something that you just don't believe in, even if you might want to believe in it or if it benefits you.

However, I think it is possible to sort of....deprogram or dismantle your beliefs. For example, searching out evidence that disproves things and sort of convincing yourself that way. So in a sense I think it's kind of both.

**Replicon** · 10-21-2009 06:25 AM

I think it's yes AND no, depending on your interpretation.

If there's something you GENUINELY want to believe in, it's not that hard to make you congruent and get the belief going. If it's something you don't actually want to believe in, then you can't just "choose to believe" (like some people like to call it). For example, the "logic" in Pascal's Wager is NOT the kind of thing that can make or break belief. If you think "weird logic --> changed belief", then belief is not a choice.

However, experience can change belief, as can a deep, genuine desire to believe something.So like when someone cheats on someone 3 times, and they keep forgiving them and believing that they're sorry for real this time, it's because they really WANT to believe that, and it's easy to fall into it, even if it doesn't make sense.

**Kuhnada29** · 10-21-2009 09:09 AM

You don't have to choose to believe in God, but you can. It's why people are Christians...to have faith in something.

Believing in God is really just believing in yourself. It will just be the most peaceful, relaxed, most loving version of you. The version of you without any fear. In actuality, You are God. Look into the placebo effect, or the Law of Attraction, or just look at dreams, your belief systems effect what you experience. So if you believe there is a Jesus Christ....or a Buddha or whatever, most likely when you die that is what will manifest...but really it's just the real you without fear.

**Indecent Exposure** · 10-21-2009 09:44 AM

No, belief is not a choice at all. Of course its your choice whether or not you want to explore different viewpoints and opinions; for instance it was my choice to read The God Delusion. However, once you have formulated an opinion in your mind belief can not be a choice. I certainly couldn't choose to believe in God, I could choose to try and believe in God by reading the bible, reading philosophical arguments for the existence of God etc, however, I've found that reading either of these things just strengthens my disbelief in God.

**Luanne** · 10-21-2009 10:15 AM

One can choose what they want to believe in, and explore it. However, they can not choose to actually believe in it. This is a result of, as already mentioned, experience and information, and already established personal beliefs.
That's why you're struggling with your thoughts, Naiya.

Very good thread, but should go in Philosophy, in my opinion.

**Photolysis** · 10-21-2009 10:47 AM

We cannot choose to believe something per se. We can choose to investigate the matter in more detail, but it's clearly not a choice when it comes to the actual belief.

Our beliefs and our method for deciding what to believe is a result of our innate personality and characteristics, our upbringing, and our worldview/existing beliefs. To change our method of formulating beliefs requires convincing people that another method is better and/or the current one is wrong.

I'd speculate that a tragic event such as a loved one dying is a good catalyst for this. Some atheists become religious. Some theists become atheists. It would be interesting to see how much this occurs either way, but I don't think people can deny that it does occur. Such happenings seem to be able to shatter certain peoples' worldviews.

Being an atheist is not a choice. I can't force myself to believe arguments that don't convince me. I do consider such arguments, but there is nothing I can do to make myself believe them. Just as I can't help the fact I notice the errors within them, nor can I overlook them.

I'll repeat my challenge from previous threads: truly believe in God/Allah/whatever for 5 seconds, before switching to true non-belief for 5 seconds. Or believe this on whatever subject you want. Believe the Earth is flat before switching back, if you're one of those who finds the idea of being asked to believe in another arbitrary god threatening.

All the people so far I've seen who claim belief is a choice haven't had the intellectual honesty to take that challenge (and to admit they are wrong).

**really** · 10-21-2009 01:52 PM

This kind of topic should be rooted in free-will arguments.

**Ne-yo** · 10-21-2009 02:55 PM

I would say belief is a choice as well as disbelief is a choice, and this goes in part to the other thread I was debating in regarding "the choice to become an Atheist". I think we as humans tend to categorize things we are aware of daily and after evaluating a particular claim we make a "decision" regarding that claim. The decision is based off various categorizes rather it be true, false, unsure, or ridiculous. It's not all that complex, you think a claim is true you decide to believe it, you think a claim is false, you decide to not believe in it. It's really cut and dry.

**Universal Mind** · 10-21-2009 03:01 PM

Originally Posted by Ne-yo

I would say belief is a choice as well as disbelief is a choice, and this goes in part to the other thread I was debating in regarding "the choice to become an Atheist". I think we as humans tend to categorize things we are aware of daily and after evaluating a particular claim we make a "decision" regarding that claim. The decision is based off various categorizes rather it be true, false, unsure, or ridiculous. It's not all that complex, you think a claim is true you decide to believe it, you think a claim is false, you decide to not believe in it. It's really cut and dry.

No. If a claim seems true, you believe it. If a claim seems false, you don't believe it. There is no choice. You also don't choose what seems true or false.

Originally Posted by grasshoppa

I'm waiting for UM's reply. I've seen him talk about this before, but now there's a whole thread devoted to it!

I've been down this road a bunch. It's hard to get theists to talk about it. I have posted the 2 + 2 = 5 challenge and billionaire/movie star challenge a bunch of times, and theists tend to play dodgeball with them.

http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...ieve+challenge

http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...ire+movie+star

**Ne-yo** · 10-21-2009 03:06 PM

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

No. If a claim seems true, you believe it. If a claim seems false, you don't believe it. There is no choice. You also don't choose what seems true or false.

At the instance you label a claim as true or false you've made a decision to do so. The claim doesn't label itself for you.

**Indecent Exposure** · 10-21-2009 03:18 PM

Okay then Ne-Yo, if is belief is a choice just do me a favour and believe that I am a purple platypus from Pluto.
Can you believe that? Or despite all your efforts, is your rational mind telling you that it's false. In essence you are choosing to believe but your mind wont let you, and you end up disbelieving. Unless of course you have no problem believing that I am a purple platypus from Pluto.

**Luanne** · 10-21-2009 03:27 PM

Whether it takes you a second, or whole life, you first think about the claim. Based on your experience, information and established beliefs you develop an opinion. The belief then forms it self. You cannot choose a belief that is against your opinion and conclusion.

Originally Posted by Ne-yo

At the instance you label a claim as true or false you've made a decision to do so. The claim doesn't label itself for you.

**Ne-yo** · 10-21-2009 03:30 PM

I never heard of a purple platypus that comes from Pluto until now. So in light of this I can categorize it as such.

Do I think it's true? I believe
Do I think It's it false? I do not believe

Based off my rational thinking I'm going to choose false and say I do not believe that you are a purple platypus from Pluto. Do you see the problem here? You can't MAKE someone believe anything. People make choices for themselves not because someone else forced a choice on them and I make a choice to not believe it.

**Indecent Exposure** · 10-21-2009 03:37 PM

You didn't make a choice not to believe; on the basis of evidence, common sense and logic you correctly concluded that my statement was false. To claim that it was choice is to say that you could have picked the other option, the option where you believe that I am a purple platypus. Obviously you couldn't of picked that option because its an absurd possibility, therefore you didn't have a choice, just the illusion of choice. If it was possible to choose your beliefs I would quite simply choose to believe in God and heaven, I can't do this because logic, common sense and evdience state otherwise. I don't understand why this isn't obvious.

**Luanne** · 10-21-2009 03:40 PM

We are not talking about forcing someone else to a certain belief. We are talking about forcing yourself to it.

Originally Posted by Ne-yo

I never heard of a purple platypus that comes from Pluto until now. So in light of this I can categorize it as such.

Do I think it's true? I believe
Do I think It's it false? I do not believe

Based off my rational thinking I'm going to choose false and say I do not believe that you are a purple platypus from Pluto. Do you see the problem here? You can't MAKE someone believe anything. People make choices for themselves not because someone else forced a choice on them and I make a choice to not believe it.

**Ne-yo** · 10-21-2009 03:45 PM

You're missing the point. How can I make a choice on something I'm completely unaware of? As I told you in the beginning I've never heard of a purple platypus up until the moment you've mentioned it. Now that I am aware of it's possible existence I am able to make a determination on where I should categorize such a claim. This claim could be very well true for someone else. Hell, it could be true for you, but if I rationalize the idea then I'm going to make a choice to categorize it as false which means I do not believe that you are a purple platypus from Pluto. Like I said you cannot force a belief on someone they have to make the choice to believe or not believe a claim for themselves.

We do not act on things we are unaware we act on things that we are aware of. It's as simple as that.

**Maria92** · 10-21-2009 04:31 PM

Originally Posted by Ne-yo

You're missing the point. How can I make a choice on something I'm completely unaware of? As I told you in the beginning I've never heard of a purple platypus up until the moment you've mentioned it. Now that I am aware of it's possible existence I am able to make a determination on where I should categorize such a claim. This claim could be very well true for someone else. Hell, it could be true for you, but if I rationalize the idea then I'm going to make a choice to categorize it as false which means I do not believe that you are a purple platypus from Pluto. Like I said you cannot force a belief on someone they have to make the choice to believe or not believe a claim for themselves.

We do not act on things we are unaware we act on things that we are aware of. It's as simple as that.

Ne-Yo, I can't believe the words are coming out of me mouth, but I think I actually agree with you.

Belief is a choice. Of course, some are better equipped to make logical decisions than others, but it remains a choice nonetheless.

**Universal Mind** · 10-21-2009 04:51 PM

Okay, here I go again. Choose to sincerely believe for five minutes that you are a billionaire movie star. Then tell us what it was like.

(I have posed that challenge lots and lots of times, and nobody has EVER done it.)

**Bonsay** · 10-21-2009 05:04 PM

No Ne-yo...

You formed a belief when you considered the probability of imran being a platypus.

If choice of belief was possible, then you could choose to believe he was a platypus, even if the probability was astronomically small. You can't do it, therefore you can't choose beliefs.

**Photolysis** · 10-21-2009 05:22 PM

How can I make a choice on something I'm completely unaware of?

You can't. But equally you can't choose once you're aware of it either, since the way we determine beliefs is predetermined by other factors.

If I talk about a purple platypus, whether you will believe it or not is already determined by

A) the evidence and reasoning I have for the item in question
B) your existing beliefs and the way you determine them

I'm free to present whatever evidence or reasons I want, but your reaction to them and whether they are good enough is already determined. If it were a choice (even if only when you first encountered an idea) you'd be free to arbitrarily switch between beliefs at will.

And the only way you can change your reaction to evidence is to be convinced that the existing way you react is flawed, as I said earlier.

**Naiya** · 10-21-2009 08:28 PM

Wow! Maybe this should be moved to philosophy.

UM, I was going to put a similar challenge in the OP, but left it out since I thought it might kill the thread before it got started, lol.

Originally Posted by imran_p

No, belief is not a choice at all. Of course its your choice whether or not you want to explore different viewpoints and opinions; for instance it was my choice to read The God Delusion. However, once you have formulated an opinion in your mind belief can not be a choice. I certainly couldn't choose to believe in God, I could choose to try and believe in God by reading the bible, reading philosophical arguments for the existence of God etc, however, I've found that reading either of these things just strengthens my disbelief in God.

Yeah, this is closer to what I think about the subject. You were able to describe it much better than I did, though. Thanks.

Originally Posted by Luanne

One can choose what they want to believe in, and explore it. However, they can not choose to actually believe in it. This is a result of, as already mentioned, experience and information, and already established personal beliefs.
That's why you're struggling with your thoughts, Naiya.

Very good thread, but should go in Philosophy, in my opinion.

Hmm that's something to think about.

**Ne-yo** · 10-21-2009 11:32 PM

And now it gets interesting.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Okay, here I go again. Choose to sincerely believe for five minutes that you are a billionaire movie star. Then tell us what it was like.

In order for me to establish rather or not I believe I am a billionaire movie star I'm going to have to analysis it based off my life experience and rational thought.

Do I have a billion dollars? No
Am I a Movie Star? No

Now I can make a decision rather or not I'm willing to believe I am a movie star. Based off the fact that I don't have a billion dollars and I am not a movie star I would then choose that myself as a movie star is false and I do not believe that I am a movie star.

See you're asking the wrong question. You can't ask someone to choose to believe in something that they have already categorized.

This is the way the question should be asked and I've asked this in another thread before.

On January 1st 2001 what was your opinion about September 11 2001 and the attacks on the World Trade Center? Did you have any sort of belief or disbelief in 9/11?

Originally Posted by Bonsay

No Ne-yo...

You formed a belief when you considered the probability of imran being a platypus.

Exactly thats my point. You cannot form a belief or a disbelief for something you're completely oblivious to. It's an Unknown, Unknown. Once you're exposed to something you've never knew of before then you're able to form a belief or not based off how you evaluate the claim that you are now aware of.

Originally Posted by Bonsay

If choice of belief was possible, then you could choose to believe he was a platypus, even if the probability was astronomically small. You can't do it, therefore you can't choose beliefs.

No, your wrong. If I never heard of it before then it's an unknown, unknown to me. Once he made the claim that he was a purple platypus from Pluto, now I am able to establish rather or not I want to believe it based off evidence, logic, rational thinking etc.. Now that I am exposed to Purple Platypuses living on Pluto I can make a determination on rather or not it's feasible to believe this. I don't see any evidence that supports it, so I made a choice to have a disbelief that Irman was a purple platypus from Pluto.