Thread: Just an honest question

If there is no such thing as suffering. How can you experience pleasure? Don't you think it's worth the price?

Originally Posted by Minervas Phoenix

If there is no such thing as suffering. How can you experience pleasure? Don't you think it's worth the price?

There is no limit to what something infinitely powerful would be able to create.

Yes, but maybe what you are claiming does not exists. Is already done but you have not chosen it yet. That's my point.

Originally Posted by Minervas Phoenix

Yes, but maybe what you are claiming does not exists. Is already done but you have not chosen it yet. That's my point.

What?

Maybe when you decide what you do not think exists, is. That is when you discover it.

Originally Posted by Minervas Phoenix

Maybe when you decide what you do not think exists, is. That is when you discover it.

Suffering exists. I don't want it to, and it would not have to under an infinitely powerful creator.

Suffering exists.

Maybe it only exists because you have chosen it. You didn't follow my instruction so how do you know if what I said could be true? What did I say about having an open mind?

Originally Posted by Minervas Phoenix

Maybe it only exists because you have chosen it. You didn't follow my instruction so how do you know if what I said could be true? What did I say about having an open mind?

You've lost me. I never chose my beliefs or suffering.

Originally Posted by Minervas Phoenix

Maybe it only exists because you have chosen it. You didn't follow my instruction so how do you know if what I said could be true? What did I say about having an open mind?

If an open mind requires you to accept delusions without analysing them critically with a healthy dose of scepticism (aka, confirmation bias)... then I'll take the option of being 'close-minded' thank you...

You've lost me. I never chose my beliefs or suffering.

Are you saying that life is not yours. That something else owns it?

bluefinger you may be irrational rather than refusing delusion. If that was the case it would be a serve mistake

Originally Posted by Minervas Phoenix

Are you saying that life is not yours. That something else owns it?

No, I said belief is not a choice and that I never chose suffering.

Originally Posted by Minervas Phoenix

bluefinger you may be irrational rather than refusing delusion. If that was the case it would be a serve mistake

I believe the correct spelling for the word you attempted to use is "severe". What you are currently doing is no better than religious indoctrination, and thus I can apply a heavily level of scepticism. All you provide are subjective musings, whilst I seek objective data and facts. Can you provide the latter?

yes, read the article I gave you honey.

No, I said belief is not a choice and that I never chose suffering.

If belief is not a choice. What causes you to believe. What extent of evidence for each person then makes it officially a belief despite any will to question evidence or to think intellectually. At what point does a belief impose itself on you without your permission in your own mind.

Originally Posted by Minervas Phoenix

yes, read the article I gave you honey.

Yes, I have read it, but so far, I see nothing of the sort in my back catalogue of the NewScientist mags... seriously, just accept that what you hold to be 'true' is just a subjective belief, of which I have no obligation to agree with or even respect. If you cannot produce the overwhelming evidence required for such extraordinary claims, I have every right to be sceptical.

Are you saying that life is not yours. That something else owns it?

I like how you keep putting words in people's mouths and repeatedly phrasing vague questions. It sounds like you're trying to be all philosophical and deep, when in actuality you're saying nonsensical and/or filler statements that simply take up space on the page without saying anything.

If you say belief is not your choice. Something else must be making you believe things other than your own mind. That's why I asked if something else was in charge.

We are on to this question now.

If belief is not a choice. What causes you to believe. What extent of evidence for each person then makes it officially a belief despite any will to question evidence or to think intellectually. At what point does a belief impose itself on you without your permission in your own mind.

How can you say that belief is not a choice? You chose to be an atheist, didn't you? All the people who convert from and into different religions choose to, don't they? Nobody forced you or them to, no one can force beliefs upon another person thus it's a choice. I don't see how (or why) you can think otherwise

Originally Posted by Rock

How can you say that belief is not a choice? You chose to be an atheist, didn't you? All the people who convert from and into different religions choose to, don't they? Nobody forced you or them to, no one can force beliefs upon another person thus it's a choice. I don't see how (or why) you can think otherwise

You can't choose to disregard certain things though. Aspects of pain and suffering (not just physical, but mental and emotional as well) are things which cannot be simply erased by not believing in them. Some things have no choice in them what so ever, and these things tend to be grounded in reality as opposed to nebulous, man-made concepts like deities.

Originally Posted by bluefinger

You can't choose to disregard certain things though. Aspects of pain and suffering (not just physical, but mental and emotional as well) are things which cannot be simply erased by not believing in them. Some things have no choice in them what so ever, and these things tend to be grounded in reality as opposed to nebulous, man-made concepts like deities.

I'm not saying I can choose not to believe in scientific fact, although technically I can. I'm talking about religious choices, these are definitely choices made by people, you choose to be an atheist even though you were once a Christian, another person would choose to believe in God after once being an atheist, or a member of any religion for that matter. Why are you denying that these people chose their beliefs?

Originally Posted by Rock

I'm not saying I can choose not to believe in scientific fact, although technically I can. I'm talking about religious choices, these are definitely choices made by people, you choose to be an atheist even though you were once a Christian, another person would choose to believe in God after once being an atheist, or a member of any religion for that matter. Why are you denying that these people chose their beliefs?

First of all, Science is not equivalent to subjective matters like Religion. Science is grounded in objectivity, and is not interested in supernatural matters. To deny Science is to effectively deny the existence of the computer and internet you use to communicate, and everything around you. Religion, however, is a concept built around subjective ideals and the supernatural. These can be disregarded completely as they are subjective matters and have little bearing on how reality actually works.

One can believe all sorts of things, but that doesn't make them true. A subjective interpretation of reality is only that, a subjective interpretation. Remember, if someone chooses to convert to some other religion or not to believe at all, they are making choices, yes, but the differences lie in the reasons behind the choices. Some could be an evaluation of subjective matters, whilst others could be critical, well-reasoned, objective analysis's. It all depends on the amount of logical reasoning you are willing to impart upon your decision-making process.

Of course, one can reason intelligently and still hold a belief, but often, these people face a question if they are aware of the fact that their belief is a completely subjective matter. If people are willing to admit that, then so much the better. It is when people refuse to admit that the beliefs they hold are subjective musings and insist upon what they believe to be true, that is when things begin to get troublesome.

A choice is an act of free will. Not everything you can do with your mind is a choice.

Originally Posted by bluefinger

One can believe all sorts of things, but that doesn't make them true.

I think you just proved my point

Originally Posted by Rock

I think you just proved my point

What I was trying to highlight is knowledge and belief are different concepts, the former being objective, the latter being subjective.