Thread: Are iron chariots mightier than God?

While I can agree with the majority of posters that reading the bible as the literal and infallible word of God is delusional, I'd have to say playing "Gotcha!" with a verse without investigating its context is equally revealing of ignorance and intellectual dishonesty. This passage says nothing about limitations of Yahweh's power, nor personal actions of Yahweh. It's one of a long series of brief accounts of tribal leaders/heroes and their accomplishments in expanding and knitting together the state of Israel, later stitched together to comprise a "history of Israel" for that period with the running theme that the rise and fall of Israel's fortunes was dependent on the people's loyalty and service to their god. Judges simply isn't a "God did this, then God did that" book, but a series of accounts of human actions--mainly military conquests.

Pretending that the Bible is God's memoir, sprung forth fully formed from an historical vacuum, makes no more sense for atheists than for fundamentalists.

Originally Posted by Taosaur

Pretending that the Bible is God's memoir, sprung forth fully formed from an historical vacuum, makes no more sense for atheists than for fundamentalists.

It's precisely because fundies purport such a thing that Atheists are driven to ridicule it.

Originally Posted by Taosaur

While I can agree with the majority of posters that reading the bible as the literal and infallible word of God is delusional, I'd have to say playing "Gotcha!" with a verse without investigating its context is equally revealing of ignorance and intellectual dishonesty. This passage says nothing about limitations of Yahweh's power, nor personal actions of Yahweh. It's one of a long series of brief accounts of tribal leaders/heroes and their accomplishments in expanding and knitting together the state of Israel, later stitched together to comprise a "history of Israel" for that period with the running theme that the rise and fall of Israel's fortunes was dependent on the people's loyalty and service to their god. Judges simply isn't a "God did this, then God did that" book, but a series of accounts of human actions--mainly military conquests.

Pretending that the Bible is God's memoir, sprung forth fully formed from an historical vacuum, makes no more sense for atheists than for fundamentalists.

That is what I was trying to say, a while ago.

No you weren't.

You were trying to "explain" this away using abstracts. Shut up.

Originally Posted by Seismosaur

No you weren't.

You were trying to "explain" this away using abstracts. Shut up.

I did twice actually.

Originally Posted by psychology student

Its referring to Judah, not God.

http://www.tektonics.org/TK-JUD.html#ironchariots.html

I am intrigued that you guys try to debate God on the biblical level when you do not even believe he exists.

The translation I quoted clearly is not talking about Judah. Also, only one of the translations says it was Judah. The rest talk about God first in the first sentence and Judah second, and then after the semicolon it says "he". If an independent clause starts with a third person personal pronoun, the antecedent is the subject of the previous independent clause. However, it is considered more proper to not use a personal pronoun when there can be any antecedent confusion at all. Why would the work of God screw up its pronoun-antecedent relationships? Plus, what Bluefinger said. If the almighty was on this mission with Judah, why would Judah not have been able to do anything in pursuit of fulfilling the mission's goals?

I am debating God at the Biblical level to understand the apparent shortcomings of the book at the root of Christianity, the religion that keeps suspending my favorite strip clubs and making me drive into town to get beer on Sundays.

Originally Posted by skysaw

It's precisely because fundies purport such a thing that Atheists are driven to ridicule it.

While looking as deluded as the fundamentalists to anyone who is neither atheist nor fundamentalist. So long as your arguments against religion hinge upon fundamentalism, you erode your position by presenting an appearance of ignorance of the full breadth and depth of religion.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

I am debating God at the Biblical level to understand the apparent shortcomings of the book at the root of Christianity, the religion that keeps suspending my favorite strip clubs and making me drive into town to get beer on Sundays.

Good answer, your fellow atheists could not do as such.

Originally Posted by Taosaur

While looking as deluded as the fundamentalists to anyone who is neither atheist nor fundamentalist. So long as your arguments against religion hinge upon fundamentalism, you erode your position by presenting an appearance of ignorance of the full breadth and depth of religion.

The book at the root of Christianity talks about God and uses the words "could not". You should admit that that is worth questioning.

Is the Bible the word of God, or is it not? Lots and lots of Christians say it is. If you are one of the people who says, "Well, the Bible says some true things and some untrue things because it was written by people and we should sort of go along with it except the parts we don't like, and a lot of it is just metaphorical but we have to guess on what is and what isn't..." then my originial post was not directed at you. I am talking to the people who actually believe that it is the word of God.

Originally Posted by Taosaur

While looking as deluded as the fundamentalists to anyone who is neither atheist nor fundamentalist. So long as your arguments against religion hinge upon fundamentalism, you erode your position by presenting an appearance of ignorance of the full breadth and depth of religion.

Unless the ridicule is aimed at fundamentalists in particular.

We all together different means to ridicule the full breadth and depth of religion.

Originally Posted by psychology student

Good answer, your fellow atheists could not do as such.

Oh? So a light-hearted reply is not good? Perhaps I could highlight another example of what else I enjoy finding inconsistencies in:

Tabloid articles - seriously, sometimes you get atrocious grammar and the odd spelling mistake, but usually, one should always note the change of tunes individual papers make on a subject within a couple of days or so. Hilarity I tell you. That is, of course, if you can stomach all the sensationalism.

Originally Posted by bluefinger

Actually, if the Lord was with Judah, surely the divine influence should have allowed Judah to conquer the valley? And yet, despite the divine backing and influence, he failed.

Also, why we do it? Because it's fun to pick up at the inconsistencies of scriptures...

The "Valley" was probably female. That explains it.

Originally Posted by vee

The "Valley" was probably female. That explains it.

Huh huh, I'll conquer the valley! Wooooooooo!!!

Originally Posted by psychology student

I am intrigued that you guys try to debate God on the biblical level when you do not even believe he exists.

Well how else are we to do it? The Bible is the only reference to use when discussing the Christian God. So when debating God and general Christian believes i have to quote from the Bible and then debate certain parts.

Just as if i were debating with a Muslim I'd quote the Qu'ran because it's what their religion is based on.

Originally Posted by psychology student

So God should do everything for us?

God supposedly does do everything for us, considering that he created the universe and all of us to function exactly as it does and as we do. Nothing happens except by god's will. That's how it works.

*sigh* i hate debates about Christianity. it never ends and begins as something misunderstood and ends up as an utterly pointless discussion.
1st, you people arent supposed to believe that God will just do everything for you. it'd be like making your parents your slaves and taking them for granted. God created us (if thats what you choose to believe, as have i) but He has let us choose the way we want to live; He doesnt live our lives for us. He gave us choice and decision. we can live His way... or some other way(like Satan's for example). He's not going to restrain us from following other religions, but in the past He brought chaos and destruction to those who didnt follow Him, and it will probably happen again as predicted in Revelations.

2nd, the Bible IS the word of God but whats most important in it is His commandments and that we live by them. there are other important things in it as well but if you're more worried about information irrelevant to His ways then, i guess it's safe to say that you're not a real Christian. you may question the text but your answers will end up forgotten.

and 3rd, just to say something about that quote about the chariots; it's just from one Bible of most likely millions of translated ones, likes others have mentioned. my Bible has that quote as (i put this in the post about the 8-limbed baby):
Judges 1:18-19
The Lord helped the people of Judah, and they took possession of the hill country. But they did not capture Gaza, Ashkelon, or Ekron, with their surrounding territories. The people living along the coast had iron chariots, and so the people of Judah were not able to drive them out.

i've said enough. like at the top of my post i'm sick of this discussion already. i dont even know why i posted this. maybe because i loved God for the entire 15 yrs of my life (well, since i was able to really believe) that i try to prove wrong everyone against Him...

Originally Posted by Questionmark

1st, you people arent supposed to believe that God will just do everything for you. it'd be like making your parents your slaves and taking them for granted.

Our parents aren't all loving and all powerful though, are they.

Originally Posted by Questionmark

God created us (if thats what you choose to believe, as have i) but He has let us choose the way we want to live; He doesnt live our lives for us. He gave us choice and decision. we can live His way... or some other way(like Satan's for example).

If he's all-knowing he already knows exactly what we will do til the end of our lives, where we don't. We have no free will because he must know exactly what we will do in every decision before we even make it; it is set in his majestic mind, it never was our choice.

Originally Posted by Questionmark

He's not going to restrain us from following other religions, but in the past He brought chaos and destruction to those who didnt follow Him, and it will probably happen again as predicted in Revelations.

All-loving?? All-forgiving?? That sounds like a dictatorship, wouldn't you say? "He brought chaos and destruction to those who didn't follow him". Mugabe.


Also; If he is all knowing he already knew when people were born that they wouldn't follow him, yet he still punishes them for something they didn't have a say in, when being all powerful and all knowing, he created them KNOWING they would not follow him, and so KNOWING he would "bring chaos and destruction to them". Cruel fuck.






..

Originally Posted by Questionmark

2nd, the Bible IS the word of God but whats most important in it is His commandments and that we live by them. there are other important things in it as well but if you're more worried about information irrelevant to His ways then, i guess it's safe to say that you're not a real Christian. you may question the text but your answers will end up forgotten.

Like the commandment to put gays to death? And the commandment to kill those who work on a sunday? Right.

Originally Posted by Questionmark

i've said enough. like at the top of my post i'm sick of this discussion already. i dont even know why i posted this. maybe because i loved God for the entire 15 yrs of my life (well, since i was able to really believe) that i try to prove wrong everyone against Him...

If you were born to Muslim parents you would have the exact same thoughts on Allah probably. What makes one more valid than the other?

Originally Posted by Omicron

Our parents aren't all loving and all powerful though, are they.

true, but they created you and guide you until you're old enough to make your own decisions.

Originally Posted by Omicron

If he's all-knowing he already knows exactly what we will do til the end of our lives, where we don't. We have no free will because he must know exactly what we will do in every decision before we even make it; it is set in his majestic mind, it never was our choice.

He knows what we will do but He's still letting us make decisions. look at adam and eve: God put the tree with the forbidden fruit on it in the garden because He trusted them not to eat it, but instead they chose to give in to temptation, eat the fruit, so He sent their children out to the world so again, they could decide if they wanted to follow Him or not. but that goes on to the next...

Originally Posted by Omicron

All-loving?? All-forgiving?? That sounds like a dictatorship, wouldn't you say? "He brought chaos and destruction to those who didn't follow him". Mugabe.

maybe i was exaggerating a little. i should have said "He helped the Isrealites to eliminate their enemies" but then you'd contradict that by saying they were His enemies as well and He's still a hating, 2-faced God. i cant win can i? someone always has an argument for others say... oh wait, i'm talking about me too

Originally Posted by Omicron

Also; If he is all knowing he already knew when people were born that they wouldn't follow him, yet he still punishes them for something they didn't have a say in, when being all powerful and all knowing, he created them KNOWING they would not follow him, and so KNOWING he would "bring chaos and destruction to them". Cruel fuck.

like before, maybe i over exaggerated. actually, i'll correct myself: in biblical times, He punished those who failed to keep His commandments. there, happy? and to save you agonizingly reading my thoughts about decision making again i'll just say 'refer to answer on second quote'

Originally Posted by Omicron

Like the commandment to put gays to death? And the commandment to kill those who work on a sunday? Right.

only if the homosexuals take part in sexual acts are they to be put to death. and why do you think that is? i'm pretty sure that when people commit adultery, there's a high chance of STD's being passed on. gay sex is probably what caused some of these diseases in the first place (probably more so for males than females. btw if i said something that offended anyone here, sorry, i dont know what i said but what i've put here is true). as for the sabbath, it probably wouldnt matter which day you kept it as, but as long you keep it holy (revise Exodus 20: 8 - 12) it says nothing about sunday or saturday as these names, nor any days of the week, had yet been given. also continuing on after Exodus 20:12 it doesnt say anything about killing those who broke it. the basic commandment was that He asked us to keep a sabbath; no more, no less. could it have been a rule made by the israelites? i'll be honest i'm not all knowing of the bible but if someone can find a passage that states that God made the rule to kill those who dont follow the sabbath, then i'll accept that i'm wrong about it. i still have much to learn

Originally Posted by Omicron

If you were born to Muslim parents you would have the exact same thoughts on Allah probably. What makes one more valid than the other?

what argument are you trying to make? that i think other Gods are stupid and everyone should follow what i believe. no, i'm not that kind of person. i respect others beliefs and accept what they want to follow. i expect the same for me, as a famous quote by Jesus, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you". i've even lived with a muslim before - my own mother...

...you know what? before i bore you with the story of my mums depressing childhood, i might as well take back all i just said. by creating arguments to other people, i cause them to create arguments back at me, creating a loop which could go on forever if we wanted it to. but i'll end it here. sorry. i wont be returning to this part of the forum ever again. i feel i have done a great injustice to both me and you Omicron and to those who read this too.

Originally Posted by Questionmark

true, but they created you and guide you until you're old enough to make your own decisions.

Funny that... my parents guided me without pushing any religious indoctrination onto me as I grew up... and when I came to the age of reason... you know what? I still didn't need religion... funny that...

Originally Posted by Questionmark

He knows what we will do but He's still letting us make decisions. look at adam and eve: God put the tree with the forbidden fruit on it in the garden because He trusted them not to eat it, but instead they chose to give in to temptation, eat the fruit, so He sent their children out to the world so again, they could decide if they wanted to follow Him or not. but that goes on to the next...

Predestination invalidates the concept of free will. If God is all-knowing and all-powerful, then he knew that Adam and Eve would fall into temptation. If he had the foresight, why even punish them? Also, Adam and Eve had no knowledge of right & wrong, so how could they not be tempted if they didn't know the consequences to their actions? It makes no sense...

Originally Posted by Questionmark

maybe i was exaggerating a little. i should have said "He helped the Isrealites to eliminate their enemies" but then you'd contradict that by saying they were His enemies as well and He's still a hating, 2-faced God. i cant win can i? someone always has an argument for others say... oh wait, i'm talking about me too

Well, like Seismosaur pointed out:

- God is not omnipotent, and can be defeated by Bronze-age war machines
- God is not omnibenevolent, as he wouldn't help Judah when he was supposed to be.

What will it be?

Originally Posted by Questionmark

only if the homosexuals take part in sexual acts are they to be put to death. and why do you think that is? i'm pretty sure that when people commit adultery, there's a high chance of STD's being passed on. gay sex is probably what caused some of these diseases in the first place (probably more so for males than females. btw if i said something that offended anyone here, sorry, i dont know what i said but what i've put here is true).

Oh... fucking... dear. I think this deserves an image macro:

Originally Posted by Questionmark

what argument are you trying to make? that i think other Gods are stupid and everyone should follow what i believe. no, i'm not that kind of person. i respect others beliefs and accept what they want to follow. i expect the same for me, as a famous quote by Jesus, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you". i've even lived with a muslim before - my own mother...

Do unto others as you would have them to unto you... Well, if I like criticising others, I don't mind other people criticising me. That's how freethinking works. Don't like it? Then there is a solution... don't criticise or just don't say what's on your mind. As for me, I actually like debate, I actually like seeing people question the stuff I put forward, because I do so to what others say. So there, I follow one of Jesus' principles... and I'm an atheist.

Originally Posted by Questionmark

...you know what? before i bore you with the story of my mums depressing childhood, i might as well take back all i just said. by creating arguments to other people, i cause them to create arguments back at me, creating a loop which could go on forever if we wanted it to. but i'll end it here. sorry. i wont be returning to this part of the forum ever again. i feel i have done a great injustice to both me and you Omicron and to those who read this too.

We all have stories about what our parents or what we went through. So what...

This must be a special verse in the Bible that shows you how to defeat God in case he might invade your valley. So be sure to keep your iron chariots ready everyone... hmm or maybe we completely missed the point. But hey, why use logic if we can use iron chariots?

Originally Posted by ChaybaChayba

This must be a special verse in the Bible that shows you how to defeat God in case he might invade your valley. So be sure to keep your iron chariots ready everyone... hmm or maybe we completely missed the point. But hey, why use logic if we can use iron chariots?

I like your humour Chayba.