Thread: The size of our universe

I say a lot of things I don't mean. Last post wasn't one of them though. As for being rude, I felt you were over reacting and being rude yourself in your original response. Telling me that my thinking is simple, while insinuating yours is not.

Originally Posted by grasshoppa

I say a lot of things I don't mean. Last post wasn't one of them though. As for being rude, I felt you were over reacting and being rude yourself in your original response. Telling me that my thinking is simple, while insinuating yours is not.

Can't be bothered to argue this.
I've made my point. People can make thier own minds up.

The original picture as an animated GIF:

Nice GIF Spaceexplorer

This video is very similar, you will like it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEheh1BH34Q (WATCH IN HD!)

And this one too, very beautiful, with other galactic and extra-galactic structues (WATCH IN HD!)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FwCM...405&feature=iv

You gotta be really nieve to not believe in aliens after watching those videos. 100 billion galaxys is all we know of, the universe just keeps going on, and on, and on. Jesus....is there even an end to it?

And LOL at the first video showing Earth to Canis....so badly OWNED! i wonder if there is a star that puts it to shame, or hell even a planet. man, i wish i knew everything about the universe instead of knowing so little before i die.

I would not be surprised if there was no end to the universe, there is no end to a balloon when you blow it up, it just keeps expanding. It's all 1 space, perhaps the universe is a balloon and just keeps expanding, and is all a circle, like a balloon.

¿ƃuıɯɐǝɹp noʎ ǝɹɐ ˙˙˙˙ʎɐʍ ǝɥʇ ʎq ɥo

˙sı ǝsɹǝʌıun ǝɥʇ ʇsɐʌ ʍoɥ ƃuızɐɯɐ s,ʇı
˙ʇɐɥʇ ƃuıɹɐɥs ɹoɟ s,ʇɐɥʇ ʇuɐıןןıɹq
¡uɐɯ ǝɯosǝʍɐ ʎןןɐǝɹ s,ʇɐɥʇ ʍoʍ

sǝʎ

Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

You really should learn to put "in my opinion" in statements like this.
Your statement shows us nothing other than how you personaly see the world, it tells us nothing else about the universe we inhabit, It is purely opinion. Opinion is great and fascinating, but can you please try and not word it as if you and you alone know the truth. Or give us something other than your personal belief to demonstrate your opinions.

But it is not in my opinion! Divinity as reported by Saints, Mystics or spiritual teachers (etc.), has these qualities, and Divinity is the core of All That Is; I.e. All That Exists is Divine. Hence as All is Create by God, eternally.

Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

I would go as far as to say you are extrapolating too far.
As far as we know, the core of beauty, awe and magnificence are in fact:
ways in which human psychology processes and experiences its environment.
They are human emotions, they require no God.

And no It is not good enough to say "God created Psychology and the universe"... as you're just expressing belief again, unfounded in anything tangible.

Not everything in the subjective realm is an emotion, and neither is what you are attributing emotions to. Especially if the feelings are not temporary.

The core of subjective Reality encompasses all possible Reality, and in this case it is known to be Divine. Subjectivity is not separated from its Source, God, and neither separate from the Universe that has been manifested. Do you not see that the tangible is only known via the intangible?

Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

No I don't see where you are gettng this conclusion from.
Why should the process of discovering our universe in a way that confirms its validity (science) negate the percived beauty in them? Or why should perciving beauty negate science? There is no foundation for this assumption.

That wasn't a conclusion or an assumption. I asked you three rhetorical questions, and you might find that yours are actually in agreement with mine.

Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

You make a LOT of unfounded statements.
Being made of Stars does not infer that we are "one with God"
We may well be the universe becoming aware and looking back at itself... but that again does not require a Divinity.

Nothing requires Divinity, because it is already an intrinsic Reality. Perhaps your argument stems from the way you picture God, so please show me how you do, and I will explain.

Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

You say: we believe that we are separate from the Universe and each of its parts

Who is this we?

"We" as in the (average) individuals of mankind.

Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

Do you mean the human race? How do YOU know what the human race believe as a whole?

Human behavior, activity, thoughts, health and opinions are dominated by belief systems and fields of consciousness. If the belief system is negative, it is not possible to have positive behavior significantly. If the belief system is positive, the behavior is likewise. This is obviously a generalization, but it holds while enlightenment is rare, and while skepticism may be popular. Have you heard of the saying "I'm only human"? There are tendencies in human nature, tendencies of consciousness and beliefs.

Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

I certainly have never considered myself seperate from the Universe. Which is exactly why I'm an Atheist. I came to terms long ago that being a temporary conscious part of the universe itself was essentially what I observed myself and others as. It required no additional "god" or "soul" or "life after death" it was simply something I could look out into the Universe and observe first hand.

If you have never considered yourself separate, then why can you not understand a unified Reality? Remember that perception is not Reality. Observing the universe temporarily does not negate eternity, nor prove immortality.

Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

I'd like to challenge your statement on a crucial aspect... that there is in fact no "I" or "We" in the first place to be "seperate from the universe". And that we are observably temporary combinations of processes, always in flux and changing.
So if there is no "I" then how can I be seperate from anything?

Yes, there is no seperate "I", but a Universal "I". This is Oneness. The ego is not the Self.

Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

I is just a concept.

This really doesn't tell me anything meaningful. We are using hundreds of concepts.

Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

It's a trillion changing processes that appear to be an enduring identity due to our unique perspective. Much like a film appears to move when in reality it is a million different frames.

However, do you go on to say that therefore there is no film? It is still possible to refer to it as a whole, a framework, a sequence or singularity. Similarly, there is only One Absolute Reality, yet there are infinite dimensions and variations.

Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

Once you dispense with the concept of "I" then yes you can say that a human being is a temporary coagulation of processes in and of the universe, that create the illusion of a discreet identity. Those processes will disperse enough upon our death for the illusion to be shattered, but are in truth dispersing all the time, as well as reforming and changing constantly.

You know, in essence you may be agreeing with me, and actually affirming immortality, eternity and God more than you realize it. If the personal self is an illusion, then all that can exist is the impersonal Reality of the Divine Self.

Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

What we are made of is inherently tied up with the rest of the ancient (and perhaps eternal) universe. And should remain in one form or another, part of the Universe for the duration of the Universe.

Does this require a Divinity?
Only really If you are using a Pantheist definition of God. Otherwise the world "Universe as a whole" or even "Existence as a whole" (if you want to encompass what may or may not be before, after and outside the Universe itself)

BUT, why use such a loaded term as "God" when "Existence as a whole" and "the Universe" are already so much more straighforward and blatant.

You see it appears we really don't think all that differently.
Our interpretation of existence diverge at the word "God"

I don't like the word, because it is loaded with millenia of opposing ideas. People can lach onto it and distort it.
You may use the word God, and someone may think you both share the same definition, but you do not.

Why not just use the word "All" or say "All that is" then you don't box yourself up with the creationalists or the religious looneys who strap bombs to themselves. The word god glues you to them.

By not using the world God, you become a Philosopher rather than Religious.
It is much more liberating to do away with words that have so many many definitions that they become meaningless.

The difference between a Philosopher and the Religious, in my eyes is,
The former says "What If?" the latter says "This IS."

I think that a lot of people who consider themselves Spiritual are in fact far more inclined to the Philosophical. A philosopher is far more free to explore the possibilities than someone who calls themselves Spritual... as the latter is a much more loaded word, and implys a personal investment.

You can be a Philosophical Atheist... in fact, I'd bet a great deal of Atheists are.

I for example would consider myself currently a Philosophical Agnostic Atheist with a Scientific-Pantheist outlook.

But generally for the sake of simplicity I use the term Atheist.

The choice of words and labels we apply to ourselves, and our lives can either free us or chain us.

I use the God in the spiritual context, wherefrom it originated. Thank you for contemplating this importance. God is All That Is, and beyond. And Divinity is intrinsically what you are describing.

Originally Posted by Rakjavik

The size of our universe

Every time I see just how big it is, I just get filled with wonder over how God created this massive space, JUST FOR US! Doesn't it make you just feel so special?

I mean, yeah it doesn't say anything about the massive size of it or anything in the Bible. But it's just so awesome how He created it so big just so we would be able to discover it!

I guess it just kinda sucks that we are never going to be able to expand out there, or discover any other life out there (because obviously, that's not in the Bible)

But hey, how awesome of a God do we have that he created all this extra space, just so we could have some pretty things to look at in the sky? I mean, that's pretty awesome.

Cool stuff. You would like the videos in my sig.

Originally Posted by really

Perhaps your argument stems from the way you picture God, so please show me how you do, and I will explain.

I do not picture God.
I think the term is meaningless.

Different religions use it in different ways, different people in the same religion use it to mean different things. It has so many endless meanings that no one is really using it in the same way.

It seems to be basically another word for:

"I don't know what i'm saying or really mean but this word will do for now, and i can kind of chop and change the meaning when things clash with it. But I kind of want to believe in something greater than me, so I have to give it a name, and everyone else is using this word so I will too. But whatever it is it's got something to do with being everything and the cause of everything - thats kind of what most other people mean, so it'll do for me."

It is the ultimate version of the * used when searching, it can basically mean anything you want it to mean.

Yes it's nice to feel like we have answers, but when the answer is just a jumble of undefined nonsense, well... i'd rather just accept I don't know than use the word God.


People who don't use the word God seem to be able to accept that:

~ Life may well have, or in fact is more likely to have no meaning other than what we make of it.

~ I am probably not important in the slightest.

~ I may never know, and am actually most likely not to know, if there is any meaning to the universe.

~ Death is most likely the end of my existence, much the same as the time before I was borne.

~ The universe is so big, that we cant even comprehend how big it is. And we are certainly not the most important part or central to it.


~ Facts that can be verified, and take effort to earn, are more valuable than ideas that make us feel good but have no foundation in reality.

Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

People who don't use the word God seem to be able to accept that:

~ Life may well have, or in fact is more likely to have no meaning other than what we make of it.

~ I am probably not important in the slightest.

~ I may never know, and am actually most likely not to know, if there is any meaning to the universe.

~ Death is most likely the end of my existence, much the same as the time before I was borne.

~ The universe is so big, that we cant even comprehend how big it is. And we are certainly not the most important part or central to it.


~ Facts that can be verified, and take effort to earn, are more valuable than ideas that make us feel good but have no foundation in reality.

You know, most of these ^ are basically just hard facts for the ego, and not necessarily would they require a belief in God or not. For example, I'll give you just my own view (I believe in God):

~ Life may well have, or in fact is more likely to have no meaning other than what we make of it.

Yes, however life was already made before we had the chance to judge it. Our makings do not last, because they are far away from ourselves. When one moves inward, one begins to intuit that which lasts forever and holds more importance than to be ascribed a meaning.

~ I am probably not important in the slightest.

I am not important or "better than others" in egoity, however I am Divine as everybody else; as All That Is; One.

~ I may never know, and am actually most likely not to know, if there is any meaning to the universe.

This is true while one is searching for something that does not exist, and/or ignoring that which does exist without question.

~ Death is most likely the end of my existence, much the same as the time before I was borne.

Death is most likely an assumption that one afraid to examine. Coupled with this is the illusion of time; the distortion of memory and perception.

~ The universe is so big, that we cant even comprehend how big it is. And we are certainly not the most important part or central to it.

Yes. The Universe is so big, that it is only more amazing that we exist; that we are part of it all. When I discover who I am, I will discover All That This Is too, because I am part of it All.

~ Facts that can be verified, and take effort to earn, are more valuable than ideas that make us feel good but have no foundation in reality.

Facts only have an objective foundation of realty and may change. However, that which is beyond facts is self-evident and will never change in nature. Reality itself is not a fact, Reality is known by Reality; by Itself.

Ok we've both made our points,
So lets get back on topic....

The Universe... Big isn't it?

Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

Ok we've both made our points,
So lets get back on topic....

The Universe... Big isn't it?

Fracken huge! I mean come on, in star trek they never got beyond the milky way. It would have taken like 40 years for Captain Janeway to get back to the alpha quadrant at warp 9!

To quote Douglas Adams....

Space is big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind- bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist's, but that's just peanuts to space.

Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

the road to the chemist's

Remind me again what in the world the chemist's is. Unless you meant literally finding a chemist to do some chemistry for you.

The universe is huge and amazing. I may be a bit geeky, but it really excites me to think of the possibilities that are out there. But I'm so pissed that I wasn't born 3000 years from now.

It sucks that in our lifetime we are never going to see the colonization of other planets or other intelligent life. But it pisses me off even more that the world is still so involved with themselves and their issues that we can't grasp the bigger picture and actually start exploring these other places.

Not nearly enough of my tax dollars go to NASA!

Originally Posted by Rakjavik

Remind me again what in the world the chemist's is. Unless you meant literally finding a chemist to do some chemistry for you.

The universe is huge and amazing. I may be a bit geeky, but it really excites me to think of the possibilities that are out there. But I'm so pissed that I wasn't born 3000 years from now.

It sucks that in our lifetime we are never going to see the colonization of other planets or other intelligent life. But it pisses me off even more that the world is still so involved with themselves and their issues that we can't grasp the bigger picture and actually start exploring these other places.

Not nearly enough of my tax dollars go to NASA!

Ah, you'd probably call it a Drug Store.

Oh and I couldn't agree more with what you say

Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

Ah, you'd probably call it a Drug Store.

And in New Zealand we call it a pharmacy

It's amazing just how big it is and how people can believe there aren't aliens somewhere in the universe, probably even in the galaxy.

Assuming there is life out there, and assuming one day Hubble will be able to get lenses good enough to zoom into planets and see there is life, and we find some, the moment Hubble is zoomed in shows thousands or millions of years in the past? or the moment it's zoomed in, is the exact moment as "now" is for us? but getting there will take so much time without some kind of light speed device, perhaps using wormholes to travel if that's what they are there for.

Any of that right?

Light takes many years to travel long distances. It takes 4 years to reach us from the nearest star (hence the unit of distance, the lightyear).

If we look at most stars in our galaxy, they are so far away that yes, the image will be thousands of years old.

If you were on board the spaceship you could theoretically travel to any star in a very short time span. However, this would only be relative to yourself. Back home, many hundreds of years could pass.

We could still find life within our own solar system; there could possibly be some on Europa, a moon of Jupiter, for instance, which we could actually take back home and study.

Originally Posted by Rakjavik

I mean, yeah it doesn't say anything about the massive size of it or anything in the Bible. But it's just so awesome how He created it so big just so we would be able to discover it!

hmm, I don't think man would be able to explore the ends of the SOLAR SYSTEM before going extinct..............

but I like going into my backyard and indulging in stargazing if I feel particularly uninspired or upset for some reason, helps me realize how much my problems and I are to the rest of the world

Originally Posted by Rakjavik

Fracken huge! I mean come on, in star trek they never got beyond the milky way. It would have taken like 40 years for Captain Janeway to get back to the alpha quadrant at warp 9!

Trekkie nerd!!!

Besides, there's no captain other than Captain Pickard

And yes, the universe is utterly huge. The 10x vid is great to show that as well.

Originally Posted by Needcatscan

Captain Pickard

*facepalm*

Picard. Not Pickard.