Thread: Events in your life that convince you God is real

Originally Posted by A Roxxor

And why the fuck not? He created the whole universe, but he can't change people? He can't stop senseless violence?

I'm going to make digital organisms for the sake of creating something new
that will develop the capacity to learn and grow from their mistakes.
Somewhere along the line, when they become intelligent enough, they will
not understand that their intelligence and wisdom resulted from the trials
they endured by existing together, and instead resort to mocking me for not
removing the same suffering that gave them that ability to argue in the first
place.

Human beings do create senseless violence, and we also have the power to
end it. Crying about how this alleged higher being doesn't remove it for us
and using that as a justification for it's non existence is lazy. Also, saying
that something "cannot" is not the equivalent of "will not". Just because I will
not kill someone does mean I don't have the ability to do so. Just because
this God doesn't shit rainbows and unicorns to make your life happy doesn't
mean it can't do it.

All of the aforesaid is only meant to stimulate critical thinking as an argument
that goes against your own and does not in any way represent my own views.


[Edit] Way off topic. Oops.

Mes, to answer you post, I don't think there were any special events
that contributed into my being swayed one way or the other with respect to
whatever my beliefs are. I was asked at one point what the difference in a
child's beliefs would be under two situations: Being born into a religious family
vs being born into a non-religious family. I scrapped my beliefs at that point
and attempted to reconstruct what I could from there. I came upon the great
universal truth, then, "I do not know". That's not to say I do or do not have
any belief at all at this point, I'd just prefer to keep my arguments balanced
against both sides without seeming biased to one or the other. That's not much
of an answer, is it?

Originally Posted by A Roxxor

Ugh, more nonsense. He said it himself, in his own book, that he DOES NOT LIKE human suffering, yet he CREATED it. Free will does not exist, so I have no idea why you bring it up, but I will go along with your idea.

Humans cannot wake up one morning and choose to transform into china teapots. They also cannot build perpetual motion machines that output more energy than they use, among an infinite amount of other physical impossibilities. Are these infringements on our free will? No! It's just how the universe is! If god existed, he could have made suffering and other things physical impossibilities while preserving our 'free will' as you called it. This is an inherent contradiction, yet makes sense as GOD DOES NOT EXIST. He is not a real being, he's a made-up explanation for natural occurrences, which is why there are so many contradictions like these about him.

Evil and good were not created. They were concepts that existed from the beginning of time.

Originally Posted by Invader

I'm going to make digital organisms for the sake of creating something new
that will develop the capacity to learn and grow from their mistakes.
Somewhere along the line, when they become intelligent enough, they will
not understand that their intelligence and wisdom resulted from the trials
they endured by existing together, and instead resort to mocking me for not
removing the same suffering that gave them that ability to argue in the first
place.

Human beings do create senseless violence, and we also have the power to
end it. Crying about how this alleged higher being doesn't remove it for us
and using that as a justification for it's non existence is lazy. Also, saying
that something "cannot" is not the equivalent of "will not". Just because I will
not kill someone does mean I don't have the ability to do so. Just because
this God doesn't shit rainbows and unicorns to make your life happy doesn't
mean it can't do it.

All of the aforesaid is only meant to stimulate critical thinking as an argument
that goes against your own and does not in any way represent my own views.

The difference being, I am not omnipotent in their environment, whereas your supposed god is.

Originally Posted by Noogah

Evil and good were not created. They were concepts that existed from the beginning of time.

oh really? care to elaborate?

Originally Posted by A Roxxor

The difference being, I am not omnipotent in their environment, whereas your supposed god is.

Please read the disclaimer in small letters before assuming that I believe in any god.
Your response also leads me to assume that you didn't understand a word I said prior to that.

Originally Posted by Xei

I'm 18... Holy shit 23 - 18 = 5, it's the law of fives!

:0

IT'S EVERYWHERE!

notice the 23 post was nooguh

OH MY GOD! Noogah is a prophet sent by Eris! Noogah is a prophet sent by Eris! Noogah is a prophet sent by Eris! Noogah is a prophet sent by Eris! Noogah is a prophet sent by Eris!

That crazy old lady has gone too far this time.

It's true. Eris speaks through the law of fives.

Originally Posted by Invader

Please read the disclaimer in small letters before assuming that I believe in any god.
Your response also leads me to assume that you didn't understand a word I said prior to that.

I wasn't attacking you, I was attacking Noogah, who believes in the god of the bible, who claims to be infinite and transcendant. Noogah even said himself that 'God wrote the laws of logic and reality'. Therefore, he could have made it another way, whereas the simulation is just reconstructing what is. Noogah also said quite clearly that 'God can't' and 'God won't'. That's in clear contradiction to his own beliefs about his god. Your analogy is interesting, but it is off-topic.

I feel bad for Mes... At this rate it won't be long until her thread derails so far that Godwin's law stamps it.

Spockman initiates project: Save the thread from the debate nazis!

Originally Posted by spockman

This isn't 100% topical, as it didn't convince me of a whole lot, but it's kind of creepy. Even though I'm still skeptical at super-human/BD type stuff. This guy whose a friend of mine, you know the Christian type that doesn't go the doctor or anything like that, told me he could read peoples minds. This wasn't in some circus attraction, but in a crowded public place. So I had him guess what card I was thinking of. First time, he was right. Second time he was right. Third time he got the number, not the suite. Fourth time he got the suite not the number, (which he had a 25 percent chance of doing anyway so he pretty much botched that one.) Fifth time he got it again.

That's pretty cool. If I were in that situation, though, I would think it was awesome and then try to set up the same situation in experiment format with lots of trials and see what percentage of cards he got right.

Having said that, though, if I were to believe that mind-reading were possible, I wouldn't somehow leap to the conclusion that god was real. I don't quite see how those two things could be forced to be connected...?

Originally Posted by Noogah

My sister was dealing with personal issues. She fasted and prayed for a while, and that week, she and I went to hear a speaker. The speaker announced that although he had originally chosen a different topic to preach, he felt that God wanted him to preach something else. It was what my sister had needed. On the way home, she wanderedif God really had provided her with a message. So, she turned on the radio, and the same message was on from a different speaker.

Personally, God has done alot of personal things for me. But I remember the one that convinced me that prayer works when I was...seven I think? I prayed all year for a white Christmas. That was the last white Christmas that I ever experienced.

To me, both of your points sound like coincidences. I mean, think of all the times that you (and other people across the globe) have prayed for something and DIDN'T get an answer of any kind. I think it's this type of perspective that gets lost on a lot of people with religious beliefs.

Originally Posted by Invader

Mes, to answer you post, I don't think there were any special events
that contributed into my being swayed one way or the other with respect to
whatever my beliefs are. I was asked at one point what the difference in a
child's beliefs would be under two situations: Being born into a religious family
vs being born into a non-religious family. I scrapped my beliefs at that point
and attempted to reconstruct what I could from there. I came upon the great
universal truth, then, "I do not know". That's not to say I do or do not have
any belief at all at this point, I'd just prefer to keep my arguments balanced
against both sides without seeming biased to one or the other. That's not much
of an answer, is it?

That's fair enough. I don't claim to know either. Obviously I think one answer is way more probable than the other, but... that's not the same as claiming something to be absolutely true. Come to think of it, I think that's another thing that many religious people can't do - they (seemingly) can never say that they don't know for sure.

Originally Posted by spockman

I feel bad for Mes... At this rate it won't be long until her thread derails so far that Godwin's law stamps it.

Spockman initiates project: Save the thread from the debate nazis!

HA! It's inevitablessszszszszsz.

That's pretty cool. If I were in that situation, though, I would think it was awesome and then try to set up the same situation in experiment format with lots of trials and see what percentage of cards he got right.

Having said that, though, if I were to believe that mind-reading were possible, I wouldn't somehow leap to the conclusion that god was real. I don't quite see how those two things could be forced to be connected...?

Yeah, which is why I said it wasn't totally topical. Providing evidence for the supernatural is seperate from direct evidence for God, agreed.

As far as the testing of my friends abilities, yeah, I should have done it. But I'm out of contanct with him, so I can't. It's not a life changer, but interesting nonetheless I thought.

That's fair enough. I don't claim to know either. Obviously I think one answer is way more probable than the other, but... that's not the same as claiming something to be absolutely true. Come to think of it, I think that's another thing that many religious people can't do - they (seemingly) can never say that they don't know for sure.

It's wierd. I mean, get two people debating on global warming. Or socialism. Or which sci-fi show is the best. Both people will, fairly early off, admit that there is a chance, even if slim, that their opponent is right. (Well, Firefly fans won't. But aside from that.)

For some reason when it comes to religion- people would become to uncomfortable offering even that much give. I think it scares them. (Atheists as well as theists, sometimes.)

In the end though, I would have trouble believing that anyone ever, (save for maybe Jesus...) didn't have doubt on some level- despite what people claim.

Originally Posted by spockman

I feel bad for Mes... At this rate it won't be long until her thread derails so far that Godwin's law stamps it.

Spockman initiates project: Save the thread from the debate nazis!

Originally Posted by Taosaur

Hey, Tao! Long time no see.

I didn't get a chance to see Vancouver isle, obviously.

BTW, xkcd makes me laugh lots of the time.

BTW again, Roxxor, why is it that you think free will is such a farse? Determinism doesn't neccessarily disproove free will.

Originally Posted by Noogah

Evil and good were not created. They were concepts that existed from the beginning of time.

You have a source....

Originally Posted by spockman

For some reason when it comes to religion- people would become to uncomfortable offering even that much give. I think it scares them. (Atheists as well as theists, sometimes.)

In the end though, I would have trouble believing that anyone ever, (save for maybe Jesus...) didn't have doubt on some level- despite what people claim.

Agreed. Atheists do it too. Which is why I like Dawkins so much - I think he does a great job of being really objective about his arguments, no emotions involved.

I don't know about Jesus, but... I would hope that a man like that would have questioned things at some point. Otherwise what's the point of following someone who never attempted critical thinking?

Originally Posted by Mes Tarrant

Agreed. Atheists do it too. Which is why I like Dawkins so much - I think he does a great job of being really objective about his arguments, no emotions involved.

I don't know about Jesus, but... I would hope that a man like that would have questioned things at some point. Otherwise what's the point of following someone who never attempted critical thinking?

Point taken. It brings up the whole- was Christ, (in Christian thinking,) always a trandescent being or did he discover it. If the former, his humanity is hard to grasp. If the latter, he had to have considered everyhting like we do. Unless it's neither, of course.

Originally Posted by spockman

Hey, Tao! Long time no see.

I didn't get a chance to see Vancouver isle, obviously.

BTW, xkcd makes me laugh lots of the time.

BTW again, Roxxor, why is it that you think free will is such a farse? Determinism doesn't neccessarily disproove free will.

Free Will calls for unprovoked actions, or actions without a cause. Determinism (i.e. How reality works) says that everything has a cause. Period. Therefore, free will is impossible. Everything has been set in stone since the big bang.

I'm an agnostic, because saying that there's no god is worse than saying that there is one. I feel that the possibility of the bible being correct is infinitely small, since many parts are scientifically impossible, but I will not say that it didn't happen.
However, I find myself leaning towards the side of A Roxxor, since he makes a very nice argument (the same that I have often made myself).

Originally Posted by StrangeDreamsGuy

I'm an agnostic, because saying that there's no god is worse than saying that there is one.

Is saying there is no Great Pumpkin worse than saying there is one?

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Is saying there is no Great Pumpkin worse than saying there is one?

Yes.
Or maybe I should say that they are equal. I will have to ponder that.

Originally Posted by A Roxxor

Free will does not exist, so I have no idea why you bring it up, but I will go along with your idea.

Humans cannot wake up one morning and choose to transform into china teapots. They also cannot build perpetual motion machines that output more energy than they use, among an infinite amount of other physical impossibilities.

No offense but that is an argument of someone who has no idea what free will is, or who is being intellectually dishonest. Free will is not the ability to change physical realities but the ability to choose to do something, or not to do something. You can choose to attempt anything, but if you fail it isn't because of a lack of free will, but from a lack of the ability to do it.

Determinism and free will can both exist at once as well. One does not necessarily rule out the other, though it could depending on what you believe.

Free will is a person choosing or not choosing. Determinism say that a person chooses something because something else caused it. If a person chooses something, and the cause was himself, then he has free will.

Determinism is how you came into being, free will is what you do now that you exist.

Originally Posted by PhilosopherStoned

oh really? care to elaborate?

Genesis 3:22 (King James Version)

22 "And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:"

Evil and good was a concept that coexisted with God. (note, when he says the word "us", he is referring to the Holy Spirit, and Jesus)

He did not create good and evil, but he had the knowledge of it, and gave man a choice between good and evil.

Originally Posted by A Roxxor

Free Will calls for unprovoked actions, or actions without a cause. Determinism (i.e. How reality works) says that everything has a cause. Period. Therefore, free will is impossible. Everything has been set in stone since the big bang.

Free will requires you to think about something. Think deeply, and think hard.

All you need is to know of the topics, and ponder on them. That's what we're doing.