Thread: 10 Questions for an Intelligent Christian

As you said, it is all subjective within your mind. The point is, you don't need any religious or spirtual guidance to cope with life. Some people do, but for me it is merely sign of weakness. The greatests feat of strength is to walk on the void, without faith, thus surviving on your own capabilities.

Why do you need hope for something that doesn't probably even exist? For what do you need faith for? Cannot you live with the resources you already have, instead of generating external, uncertain visions of something grander? Be a human and carry responsibility of your own actions, don't throw the burden to someone else, human or otherwise. What are you all afraid of?

I don't generally want to take source of relief and hope out of people. If they want to live within illusions, they are free to do so. Yet, they should do it inside their heads, never ever talking to others or creating organized religions or affecting society with their religious ideals.

Originally Posted by Unelias

I don't generally want to take source of relief and hope out of people. If they want to live within illusions, they are free to do so. Yet, they should do it inside their heads, never ever talking to others or creating organized religions or affecting society with their religious ideals.

There are people here who believe in stuff like astral projection. Are you going to tell them to keep their mouth shut and keep their delusions to them self as well?

Better that way if you want to avoid problems.

that's ridiculous unel. people should be able to share.
i believe in god, yet i am trying APing. i share it with my fellow friends and such.. is that wrong? no
i think that if you want to be religous and such learn to test your beliefs/faith, if not then why follow them?

Oh, and now that the weekends over, I didn't lie.

I didn't say that I wouldn't post, I said I wouldn't post here.

I'll get to this soon.

Nobody wants an update of whether you are going to reply or not. Just do it or don't do it.

Originally Posted by aorozco

that's ridiculous unel. people should be able to share.
i believe in god, yet i am trying APing. i share it with my fellow friends and such.. is that wrong? no
i think that if you want to be religous and such learn to test your beliefs/faith, if not then why follow them?

Delusions are delusions.

It all starts with these little innocuous things but then these people are manipulated by others to get money, work, and even worse.

Let us not forget;
+ http://www.heavensgate.com/

This cult prayed on the intellectually deluded and they killed themselves for it.

If your child believed that he could heal away his cuts and wounds instead of seeking medical help, what would you say?

Let us say that you are in court for the murder of your family and the murderer says, "I astral projected to your deceased love ones and they say forgive me" - what would you do?

It's all nice fantasy games - but when it is applied to real life (which it eventually does) - then it is destructive and delusional.

~

Most religions are about what happens after you die, and morals and ethics you should have during life. In other words, its philosophical in nature. There really is no harm, and a person can hardly be delusional because they have a philosophical belief that is simply an opinion that can not be proven or disproven.

Originally Posted by Alric

Most religions are about what happens after you die, and morals and ethics you should have during life. In other words, its philosophical in nature. There really is no harm, and a person can hardly be delusional because they have a philosophical belief that is simply an opinion that can not be proven or disproven.

You do not need a religion or God to have a morality.

Based on your logic here, are you saying that it is reasonable to believe in Heavens Gate? What about Charles Manson? Do not mistake what illogic's slippery slope can actually lead to.

~

Originally Posted by O'nus

Delusions are delusions.

It all starts with these little innocuous things but then these people are manipulated by others to get money, work, and even worse.

Let us not forget;
+ http://www.heavensgate.com/

This cult prayed on the intellectually deluded and they killed themselves for it.

If your child believed that he could heal away his cuts and wounds instead of seeking medical help, what would you say?

Let us say that you are in court for the murder of your family and the murderer says, "I astral projected to your deceased love ones and they say forgive me" - what would you do?

It's all nice fantasy games - but when it is applied to real life (which it eventually does) - then it is destructive and delusional.

~

Yeah, I understand that as well as agree with you.
At the same time though, does that mean that i should keep my mouth shut about my beliefs? People do fall into the traps of others, my mother is one of them, because they blindly accept everything that they are told...
Yes I know that, but that shouldn't keep everyone from sharing their beliefs or their experiences...
I believe in God yes. I still listen to other's opinions about him, or about other religions. I open my mind to outside things to sort of refresh my brain. That way I don't become a follower by mere blind faith. Made that mistake before.
Sorry I digress..
My point is simply, don't hide who you are because of the possibility that it might rub off on someone else.

Originally Posted by aorozco

Yeah, I understand that as well as agree with you.
At the same time though, does that mean that i should keep my mouth shut about my beliefs? People do fall into the traps of others, my mother is one of them, because they blindly accept everything that they are told...
Yes I know that, but that shouldn't keep everyone from sharing their beliefs or their experiences...
I believe in God yes. I still listen to other's opinions about him, or about other religions. I open my mind to outside things to sort of refresh my brain. That way I don't become a follower by mere blind faith. Made that mistake before.
Sorry I digress..
My point is simply, don't hide who you are because of the possibility that it might rub off on someone else.

Maybe you missed my point then;

What if who you are that could rub off on someone else is a delusional personality?

What if what you truly believe is real is actually a destructive delusion?

Consider Heaven's Gate and Charles Manson; they truly believe what they said and say and many have died as a consequence.

Do you think that they ought to have done what they did then?

Acting on delusions is not a good idea.

~

You are just making silly claims. The vast majority of Christians still go to the doctors when sick and stuff. Out of all the people I have known, I have never seen a single person try to heal an injury with prayer alone.

The vast majority of Christians believe in an afterlife, and they believe that being kind and helping each other in life, and being humble to the creator of all things when give them a good afterlife. This is a philosophical opinion, and not delusional.

None of them believe prayers are magical wish granting machines. None of them think god will come down and smite anyone. None of them jump off buildings or anything, thinking that god will help them fly. All of that is silly nonsense.

You can't blame religion for what some crazy cult does. Even if there was no religion, the cult would still exist in some other way. Just because a crazy person happens to be Christian doesn't mean its the religions fault.

If I am religious and start to hear voices and they tell me to kill someone, then I do. It has nothing to do with religion. If it wasn't there, I might have heard a character from TV telling me to kill someone instead. Its the crazy person, being crazy that is at fault. Not the stuff around him.

The simple fact is, most Christian are not delusional, and their beliefs are logical and thought out. You might not agree with them, but as with many philosophical debates, people don't often agree.

Originally Posted by O'nus

Maybe you missed my point then;

What if who you are that could rub off on someone else is a delusional personality?

What if what you truly believe is real is actually a destructive delusion?

Consider Heaven's Gate and Charles Manson; they truly believe what they said and say and many have died as a consequence.

Do you think that they ought to have done what they did then?

Acting on delusions is not a good idea.

~

Ahh... Okay I see. sorry I did miss your point the first time..

If someone has not the ability to decipher what they believe in on their own, and fall into a delusional state, or thus have a "delusional" person rub off on them, well i can just say that sucks, and they should be just a little bit wiser.
O people in this world are either leaders, followers, or just passing through.
If my beliefs are delusional, or harmful in any way, then by all means, people should not follow my beliefs, but if they so choose too, then by all means, go for it.
I refuse to hold back my beliefs, simply for the benefit of someone else.
To people back in the "old days" Abraham Lincoln was delusional for wanting slavery gone. Should he have backed down?

People need to learn to pick and choose what they want, and if they have the inability to do so for themselves, then they can just choose to follow, or decline. It's their choice. I will not shove my religion into their mouths and down past their wind-pipe.

Originally Posted by Alric

You are just making silly claims. The vast majority of Christians still go to the doctors when sick and stuff. Out of all the people I have known, I have never seen a single person try to heal an injury with prayer alone.

That is not true; there are far too many cases where people completely ignore blood transfusions or seeking psychiatry due to their religious beliefs that it is wrong or they can pray it away.

Furthermore, are you ignoring the droves that come to see the Virgin Mary in the reflective glass of windows, rocks, and grilled cheese? There are millions of people that ignore medical help and simply bring their sick relatives to the waters of the apparent birthplace of Jesus and then just pray.

Just because you have not seen it, does not mean it is not reality.

The vast majority of Christians believe in an afterlife, and they believe that being kind and helping each other in life, and being humble to the creator of all things when give them a good afterlife. This is a philosophical opinion, and not delusional.

As opposed to what?

Is this not the truth that Christians be good for the sake of a terrible afterlife?

I do not believe in heaven in hell (because they are lies) and I do good things for no other reason than doing good. What does that make me?

None of them believe prayers are magical wish granting machines. None of them think god will come down and smite anyone. None of them jump off buildings or anything, thinking that god will help them fly. All of that is silly nonsense.

So prayer is pointless then?

There is no difference between prayer and meditation.

You can't blame religion for what some crazy cult does. Even if there was no religion, the cult would still exist in some other way. Just because a crazy person happens to be Christian doesn't mean its the religions fault.

I am not saying that just 1 Christian is delusional.. I am saying that all Theists are delusional.

And get it right; I am not calling you crazy.

If I am religious and start to hear voices and they tell me to kill someone, then I do. It has nothing to do with religion. If it wasn't there, I might have heard a character from TV telling me to kill someone instead. Its the crazy person, being crazy that is at fault. Not the stuff around him.

What happens when people pray? What do they claim happens? What of those that wrote the bible a hundred years after he died? What of Joseph Smith? What of Muhammed? What of the Pope? What of preachers?

All these people claim to have "felt and heard" God or Jesus. And certainly many Christians have to. You are just a different brand of Theism because it is abundantly evident that Christianity and Theism in general have no universal characteristics but just manifest certain defenses in order to save face when encountered with the reality of their delusion.

The simple fact is, most Christian are not delusional,

All Christians are delusional.

What do you call someone who believes in something regardless of the fact that there is no proof, reason, or justification for it?

You can use the same reasoning for pink elephants and cotton candy fairies.

and their beliefs are logical and thought out.

No they are not; they are indoctrinated and regurgitated. Even right now you are likely just repeating what a preacher or the bible has taught you.

All Christianity is based off of scripture and yet you say it is thought out? All your answers and thinking have been done for you already; how is that thought out?

You might not agree with them, but as with many philosophical debates, people don't often agree.

It is not that I do not agree with them; it is that they are false and I find it amusing that people will argue something that is abundantly wrong.

Just like how I find it amusing and intriguing to read accounts for Charles Manson, Heavens Gate, and other delusional people.

At least you are not a drug addict that has had drug induced spiritual journies that convinced you drug addictions and spirituality are the cure for everything. Those people are the most deluded.

Originally Posted by aorozco

If someone has not the ability to decipher what they believe in on their own, and fall into a delusional state, or thus have a "delusional" person rub off on them, well i can just say that sucks, and they should be just a little bit wiser.

I agree - people ought not to simply buy into others beliefs or allow their children to be indoctrinated.

O people in this world are either leaders, followers, or just passing through.
If my beliefs are delusional, or harmful in any way, then by all means, people should not follow my beliefs, but if they so choose too, then by all means, go for it.
I refuse to hold back my beliefs, simply for the benefit of someone else.

Wait.. you are not blaming others for your delusion are you?

Is this the same as saying;
"I am delusional. Thus, if you choose to listen to me, it is your own fault."???

In that case.. I am not surprised to hear that from a deluded person. I hope you have the sanity to see what is wrong here.

To people back in the "old days" Abraham Lincoln was delusional for wanting slavery gone. Should he have backed down?

You are equivocating my point now.

That was delusional in a political and ethical means. I am not speaking of those. Please stick to the proper subject matter.

People need to learn to pick and choose what they want, and if they have the inability to do so for themselves, then they can just choose to follow, or decline. It's their choice. I will not shove my religion into their mouths and down past their wind-pipe.

So.. it is not your fault if others believe your delusions..? What does that say about you?

~

I think the guy in the video is delusional. He thinks having a collage degree, makes you educated.

Originally Posted by Alric

I think the guy in the video is delusional. He thinks having a collage degree, makes you educated.

Obviously it is a means to a credential.

Don't be coy. You cannot seriously argue that having a degree means that you are not educated, do you?

Consider that;
+ The more educated people are (in University and College) - the less religious you are, the higher economic quarter you are in, and higher intelligence quotient.

Furthermore, Atheists more often have a higher intelligence quotient than Theists (I can and have proven this before in other threads; can do again upon request).

What do you think ought to be done to establish a premise of "I think you are smart because you likely.. or have.." instead?

That they ought to consider the world around them and question the world?

What exactly is he doing in the video again..?

Maybe you should look in a mirror.

~

Originally Posted by O'nus

That is not true; there are far too many cases where people completely ignore blood transfusions or seeking psychiatry due to their religious beliefs that it is wrong or they can pray it away.

But O who are we to stop them from doing somethingg they think is right? in this case they are harming themselves yes, but they chose it to be that way..


[/QUOTE]Furthermore, are you ignoring the droves that come to see the Virgin Mary in the reflective glass of windows, rocks, and grilled cheese? There are millions of people that ignore medical help and simply bring their sick relatives to the waters of the apparent birthplace of Jesus and then just pray.

Just because you have not seen it, does not mean it is not reality.[/QUOTE]


Once again, it's their belief... Should everyone just drop their beliefs because they don't coincide with yours O?




[/QUOTE]As opposed to what?

Is this not the truth that Christians be good for the sake of a terrible afterlife?

I do not believe in heaven in hell (because they are lies) and I do good things for no other reason than doing good. What does that make me?[/QUOTE]
It just makes you a good person. you don't have to be a christian to be good, or great...


[/QUOTE]So prayer is pointless then?

There is no difference between prayer and meditation.[/QUOTE] Some may view it that way. I see prayer not as a way to ask for miracles, but a way to let God know how i feel. a way that I can talk to him, not him to me.



[/QUOTE]What happens when people pray? What do they claim happens? What of those that wrote the bible a hundred years after he died? What of Joseph Smith? What of Muhammed? What of the Pope? What of preachers?

All these people claim to have "felt and heard" God or Jesus. And certainly many Christians have to. You are just a different brand of Theism because it is abundantly evident that Christianity and Theism in general have no universal characteristics but just manifest certain defenses in order to save face when encountered with the reality of their delusion.[/QUOTE]

Yes they do claim that. No one has to believe this O. I do, because i just do. I have no concrete evidence, but those are just my beliefs...



[/QUOTE]All Christians are delusional.

What do you call someone who believes in something regardless of the fact that there is no proof, reason, or justification for it?

You can use the same reasoning for pink elephants and cotton candy fairies.[/QUOTE]
Hmm. Using your logic, yes all christians are. I am okay with being called delusional for my belief. It takes alot of faith to believe in what i do. I am okay with that. It just gives me more reason to keep trying to learn more.



[/QUOTE]No they are not; they are indoctrinated and regurgitated. Even right now you are likely just repeating what a preacher or the bible has taught you.

All Christianity is based off of scripture and yet you say it is thought out? All your answers and thinking have been done for you already; how is that thought out?[/QUOTE]
Same as most science and school teachings would you not agree? I am sure that most of your thoughts have been "regurgitated" and that you are mostly repeating what many others have said. Shall we not believe in science as well?



[/QUOTE]It is not that I do not agree with them; it is that they are false and I find it amusing that people will argue something that is abundantly wrong.

Just like how I find it amusing and intriguing to read accounts for Charles Manson, Heavens Gate, and other delusional people.

At least you are not a drug addict that has had drug induced spiritual journies that convinced you drug addictions and spirituality are the cure for everything. Those people are the most deluded.

~[/QUOTE]

agreed in a way. you may be absolutely right that we are wrong, or you may be absolutely wrong... We won't know until we are there right?


Well the quotation thing didn't work... lol i'll bold yours...

Some people say there are some 2 billion Christians in the world. So 'millions' of people, is actually a tiny percentage of the total amount. 20 million is only 1 percent. So there may very well be millions of people who avoid medical care because of it, however, they are such a tiny percent they hardly make up an accurate representation of the religion as a whole.

In fact, in the US like 80 percent of the population is Christian. If the vast majority of people in the US refused medical care, I think we would all know. The simple fact however, is that it is simply untrue. Only a tiny percentage of people are like that. Most Christians will get as much care as anyone else.

They are not delusional. If you are faced with a question and there is no answer or proof, then all you can do is take your best guess. If a persons best guess is that religion is true, then that is simply their best guess in the face of no proof for anything. They do have reasons for why they might feel one way or the other but in the end it is still just a guess and so it can't be delusional.

Originally Posted by Alric

They are not delusional. If you are faced with a question and there is no answer or proof, then all you can do is take your best guess. If a persons best guess is that religion is true, then that is simply their best guess in the face of no proof for anything. They do have reasons for why they might feel one way or the other but in the end it is still just a guess and so it can't be delusional.

That's the problem I have. Why would you take a "best guess". It's to illogical. Here we have this amazing, the most amazing mystery of existence itself, but guess what, I'll just take a "best guess" that it's all about a few bearded men in a cloud city of Valhalla, who are obsessed with honour and warfare... I mean wtf is that? How can people be so plain, it's such a depressing concept. For me at least, so unsatisfactory. Maybe it's just me being indoctrinated into thinking for myself.

That is how science works. You make a hypothesis based on your best educated guess. Or are you saying, you should never make a decision unless you have absolute proof on something? If that is the case, you will find you have problems in most of your life, trying to decide on things.

Yes. That's what people should do. That would get them rid of the delusions built by whoever or whatever made them the way they are. "That would be hard to live with", isn't an excuse if we only look at the matter at hand.

My point was that the guys argument was flawed, because he made the claim that there could be no logical answer to the questions he listed. However there are logical answers to all of the questions. He doesn't even attempt to ask questions that apply to all Christians. He makes a good argument, but it only really applies to people who believe strongly in God actively interfering in human activities through prayer. So it doesn't even address Christians with other beliefs than the ones he used, yet he makes the claim that they are wrong regardless of that.

If you are making strange or random excuses, then he is right. You need to reevaluate what you believe. This could mean switching to atheism, or simply doing more research into your own religion. If you however, come up with a logical reason that makes sense, then no one should judge you for it.

Originally Posted by Alric

If you however, come up with a logical reason that makes sense, then no one should judge you for it.

I don't know how far you can go with logic in relation to religion and still stay religious. I've seen it a bunch of times, when it comes to defining what you really believe, no answers are given. If you can't answer why you believe without inquiring at the nature of belief, then you really aren't after the truth.

Well you can say you don't think someone has a logical answer, but if they provide a logical answer, that would make you wrong. Just because something is logical doesn't mean it is true. Which is why two people can come to two different conclusions, why both of them being logical. Especially, in a topic like this where there are so many levels of understanding to it.

Christians become atheists, and atheists become Christians. Some people bounce back and forth between them as they learn more and experience life. A reasonable person could logically come to either conclusion, without being delusional or stupid or anything.