Sorry about the big post. Next time I will cut it down a lot!
Although I am not intending to sound condescending, I have to point out that the human mind sometimes has the tendency to over-complicate the simplest of matters. Such a simple argument has grown into a huge game of information, rather than a simple question for truth. I am not here to prove to you what I believe and cite my every conclusion. Take a wild paradigm shift. We are talking about what is experiential, not what is provable. If you come here to ignore everything that is not provable, this isn't going to be much help. Let me point out why this is different.
O'nus, I don't expect this to be new to you because we have been in so many similar arguments together. Nevertheless, let me elaborate. The spiritual world is the world of experience. It is firm within the subjective domain. It is based in context of experience rather than content, hence it does never change. Essentially, this is why it is the Absolute Truth, for that is entirely experiential as subjective reality through which any knowledge or experience whatsoever is known. The spiritual, subjective context is beyond all things, thoughts, ideas, terms, proofs, concepts, measurements, lack, limit and description. Remember, the context does not concern imaginings, fantasies, objects or special academic papers. Reality was here to mankind without any explanation, but no explanation is truly needed.
Through revelation and teachings/scriptures (etc.), the Self-Realized throughout history, to this day, all tell us that this is essentially the Divine Reality. Call it Bliss, God, Cosmos, Buddha, Mind, No-Mind, Self, Heaven, Enlightenment, Pure Consciousness or Reality. It is in no way supernatural or imaginary, though the terminology is sometimes confused as such upon brief examination or familiarity. Do not give this a brief examination, trust me. A brief examination may also see this as circular and unfalsifiable. Do not try to prove it, but realize how you can see it as true without proof. You'll find you don't have to change anything but your scope of awareness. Foreseeing the argument ahead, I'd ask if you know the importance of spiritual awareness, because it is out of awareness that Reality exists. Do you know what I'm talking about?
Originally Posted by O'nus
Respect
Firstly, I want you to understand that I am accusing you of digressing the thread into a complete irrelevancy based upon your own philosophies. It takes away from the thread and you add condescending remarks to it. Just because skeptics question prayer and spirituality does not mean that they are stupider than you. Consider the possibility that you are wrong. No matter how right it may seem to you.
The digression of this thread through "my own philosophy" is entirely your own opinion. To think this is exclusively my own philosophy implies you don't even read my posts. If you mean I simply post in threads with my own view, you've ignored the purpose of a forum; picking me out through your own relative annoyance. Respect is something I think you need to have, more than anyone else in this discussion. You don't see me telling you or anyone else to "get out" with your degrading ideas, so again: Keep it to yourself.
Do I also have to repeat that disrespect is not my intention? Where did I say skeptics are stupid? Don't put words in my mouth. Realize that I am arguing a point as anybody else would. If you can't directly quote my arrogant insults, I simply didn't say any. I don't know if you're paranoid or not, but I have no intention to imply these things either!
Originally Posted by O'nus
Substance
What you have provided:
- Subjective and relative definitions of spirituality, meditation, and prayer with no support, evidence, or justification.
What I have provided:
- Justifiable arguments and valid objections to the functionality of prayer.
It must be noted that I think you are ignoring the fact that I fully acknowledge the power of positive psychology, placebo, and meditation. However, I do not think there is any need to implement supernatural or anything further out of the context.
I must note to you that you are consistently using circular logic. You assume that spirituality exists and then argue from that standpoint. You are not defining or justifying the existance of God, spirits, or anything else for that matter.
So when it comes to substance, you must really look at yourself.
This just happens to dodge my question. If I ask for substance, it also means I don't see any solid ground behind your views - of which just happens to include your above stance as well. You complain to me, but don't expect me to understand what you're talking about without directly referring to the source of the problem. I.e. please make direct quotes instead of broad, over-simplified, generalizations.
Also, about my seeming relative, circular logic. This is not the case. If you understand the Perennial Philosophy, you understand the basics of what cannot be proven. Yet this is not relative at all. Neither are my descriptions of prayer and meditation; I think you're just trying to be difficult rather than actually consider where I am coming from.
Originally Posted by O'nus
Semantics
While there seems to be a distinct difference between prayer and meditation, it is a central debate we are having right now.
However, you keep saying that God is not supernatural, and debating with my use over the terms of your God and divine influence, etc.
I am trying to use the most vague and broad terms to relate to you and you consistently change the context of the words I am using. You know what I am trying to convey to you; we both understand that your God is intended as an all encompassing perceiver and influence, etc.
Please don't assume I know or don't know what you're talking about. I don't change the context of your words, but actually I am asking you what it is the context of your words. What is your meaning of supernatural and why is it important? In what way does this relate to what I have said? So far I think you see supernatural as something that is unnecessarily applied, external and unnatural. But that has been misapplied to the nature of God, which I argue is a metaphor and attributed reference to Pure Consciousness (see third paragraph also), if you will.
Originally Posted by O'nus
Prayer v Meditation
Firstly, if you can accept what I am saying about the truth in these two things, than we can continue. The fact of the matter is that, physiologically speaking, these two things are exactly the same. Breathing rates, blood pressure, all drop and the person relaxes.
Thanks for being more specific, but unfortunately it is now late in the argument and your position still remains weak. I still don't know why you're specifically arguing about this. Physiologically speaking, the amount of endorphins that are released during prayer and meditation can be quite different. Often meditation states inspire the so-called Kundalini energy to flourish, through which a significant amount of endorphins are released, leading to increased healing. This is actually one of the factors that contribute to spiritual awakenings, and you can check out Gopi Krishna for more explicit detail in this.
Originally Posted by O'nus
If spirituality or God makes prayer/meditation more potent, then ought there be a difference when an Atheist meditates?
Yes because an Atheist does not meditate for the purpose of God, and if he/she does, they are unknowingly a Theist. If a meditating Atheist comes to experience death, followed by Absolute Peace, he has come to know God, but perhaps he was motivated by some other term or phrase, such as "the search for my true Self" However, they actually mean the same thing, and upon experience that is confirmed beyond doubt. The intentionality and purpose behind the meditation is important because it also motivates the degree to which the meditation is handed over to a higher power. However, all this depends on the kind of meditation. In this example it is the watching/surrendering of thought systems or attachment thereof.
Originally Posted by O'nus
Furthermore, you can still meditate and think of others. I do it all the time. In fact, I often tell people that I need time to think to myself about how I can help them. This is because I feel that, in my meditative state, I am most able to be empathetic and able to relay my thoughts about that person. I try to go into the most phenomenological state possible and it works very effectively for me.
Thinking to yourself is in not meditating. People think to themselves all the time. Do I really need to justify that? Even if you do meditate for others, you begin by searching inside yourself. But perhaps you should elaborate on the process of this meditation. Praying often is more direct and without personal activity or drawing own conclusions. Also remember the variety of prayers and meditations that are distinguishable from each other, as I had mentioned. No need to ignore that.
Originally Posted by O'nus
Majesty
Let us stick with prayer and meditation.
Imagine for a moment that there are two views:
1) Meditation/Prayer is functioned by God and allows all these wonderful epiphanies to occur
or
2) Meditation/Prayer is functioned by individuals on their own and all the wonderful epiphanies occur on their own - autonomously.
I would like to ask which one sounds more amazing, but our answers are obviously bias, so let me elaborate. Is it more amazing that there's a supernatural influence on the epiphanies and wondrous things that happen in your life? Or is it more inspiring to know how much control and wonderful abilities you have on your own? You are the ultimate God of your own consciousness - not something else.
Whether or not something is more amazing is a matter of opinion and experience. What you mean is what is intrinsically more beautiful, but you assume that God is supernatural, invented or somehow external. The more you understand God, the more you understand your Self in Truth (visa versa), and you'd eventually find them as One and the same. However, this does not become a "better than" concept and it's not to be confused with egotistically inflated images and grandiosity. This is simplified below:
1) Position to give up to God; Meditation dedicated to higher Power.
2) Position to claim authorship via ego; Meditation exists within causal/dualistic system. If something happens autonomously of its own, it has nothing to do with you and our own personal abilities. It is impersonal.
Originally Posted by O'nus
You seem to fail to see the point. I will try to explicitly state it.
A) Prayer and meditation both have the same physiological and psychological effects.
+ A1) This is proven in the fact of slow breathing, heart rate, and attachment theory.
+ A2) This is also true as both have the same fundamental purposes.
B) If there is any differene, it ought to be between those that pray to a God and those that pray to themselves
C) There is no difference between those that pray to a God and thoes that pray to themselves
Thus,
- Prayer is a placebo and there is no difference between it and meditation
A1) This is superficial and isn't specific enough to what is being examined. I can have low breathing and heart rate while watching TV, but it has no where near the same psychological or physiological effects as prayer; especially meditation. There are many other variables that are not considered, such as psychological effects on others who are the object/subject of one's prayer and the prevailing conditions of awareness, which may or may not persist. This is not provable, but it is verifiable by experience - hence the authority of those Avatars and spiritual masters/teachers.
A2) Define the fundamental purpose.
B/C) These are also superficial because they're limited to the externalized definition of the prayer's object/subject and not the intention that follows. Nevertheless, how exactly is the proof of indifference justified? It is not suitable proof if it is derived from categories of outcomes or apparent characteristics alone.
Originally Posted by O'nus
If you want scientific journals representing the fact that there is no difference, simply request it. But by no means think that I am not confident in calling up an army of journals; too many people think that asking such will cause me to be lazy and hopefully shut the argument down - that would not be the case, so do not make the mistake of thinking that I am bluffing.
Tell me what you think is important and what matters to the discussion. I do not wish to read an army of journals for something ridiculously simple, and besides, I value quality over quantity.
Originally Posted by O'nus
I have noticed that a lot of bias people use this "from the heart" argument but it's really just a fancy proverbial argument that means nothing more than "if you were bias..".
How is "praying from the heart" any different than "praying with a bias"? Also, is this not the very definition of placebo?
Do I have to tell you the difference between praying out of compassion and praying out of selfishness? Please consider this for a moment, slow down a little.
Originally Posted by O'nus
I still agree with all the benefits - and there are a great many. However, there is absolutely no need (nor proof or justification other than tautological or circular logic) that a God needs to be involved.
There is absolutely no reason that God needs be involved because you're not seeking God, simple enough? Besides, like I said, it's not supernatural. It depends upon your intent, and that also defines the outcomes that can be proven or not. Ask God when all else fails, or if all has already failed. Otherwise, you're probably playing the waiting game, which does not recognize paradigm or own limitations.
Originally Posted by O'nus
You did not answer my question here. You simply said, "As long as they are doing good, it is good" but could you not say that it is better to do good for the sake of doing good than doing good for the sake of being told to? Or out of obligation?
Which is "more altruisitc"; a police officer saving a mans life, or a stranger saving a mans life?
Or, more pertinent; a man saving another man becaues he thinks God will reward him somehow or bring him closer to him. Or a man saving a man because he just cares about the man.
This is overcomplicated. Do you know the saying: "God is Love"? If you save someone out of care, love or for God there is no difference. The only difference is your intellectual position with God. And yes, you'd see that I did say it is better to do good for its own sake, if you read my post.
As for your altruism question, I don't know what you're getting at.
Originally Posted by O'nus
Again, I ask you, why do you think I dedicate my life to helping people if I do not share a shred of beliefs you have in spirituality and God and yet still "do good" for others?
Again, I answer you, because you do not wish to include anything redundant, bias, self-fulfilling, improvable - all of which you categorize God and spirituality. I see you are close to believing in God, although you try to justify otherwise through intellectualizing things out of your academic orientation. Nothing wrong with that, however there are limitations you may be unaware of. Just pointing it out. Perhaps, to some extent, you fear giving up your life for a belief set that merely seems to be contradictory to your own.
Originally Posted by O'nus
Intelligence and Spirituality
You have said this often too. What is this implying? That you ought to give no thought to your beliefs in order to believe them?
By not being intellectual, I don't mean you have to be dumb or not be intelligent! You ought to give no thought to support those beliefs that see that thoughts are fruitless. This is one method.
What I mean is again; limitation of paradigm. Why do we need to intellectualize the obvious? Is the Truth devoid of concepts? This goes back to the core of what I am saying, again straying slightly off topic into the overall philosophy.
Originally Posted by O'nus
Are you really going to desperately argue me that I simply misunderstand and think too much over the idea of God being "revealed" to me once I stop thinking? Do you not see the problem in this?
[...]
However, this is the key to delusion. If you do not question even your own cognizance, then you allow yourself to naively believe many things. Imagine if you never questioned yourself or your environment. Imagine if you just willfully believed all things you were told. Where would you be? You would be the most gullible and manipulable person about.
This is not the key to delusion. Most people who are spiritually inclined are always questioning themselves and their environment, if not they have already long ago. The world, its thoughts and its science have become redundant and actually delusional when it comes so seeking something greater. Some may see this as uncomfortably "deep." It is the depth of paradigm that needs to be considered, and not as to be mistakenly categorized with superfluous fantasies. This does not negate science and reason, but transcends it. Remember, the context is the key here. What can worldly science not provide? The answers to the Absolute.
Originally Posted by O'nus
And this is why it is easy to send religious people to do monotonous tasks and contorl them as a society. It is without a doubt that Christianity and almost all religions have a heavy political interest. Furthermore, it deters thinking. If someone has already done all the questioning and thinking for you and you question it, you will most likely be told, "It is just this way; believe it or leave". What choice does a person have if that is their family or society?
Furthermore, what limitations is made on a person if their room for skepticism is bound? If you are not allowed to be skeptical, then what can that person truly learn?
Sure, skepticism is healthy in some sense, but you must see its limitations. A humble skeptic does not make negative prejudgments, for one thing. A humble skeptic is critical but has an open, wise mind.
Originally Posted by O'nus
Furthermore, you ask the limitation of logical-thinking;
I am not sure what you mean by that. What are limits?
Limits of thinking are where thinking and logic becomes useless, inaccurate, misleading and false, etc. So wherefrom does this arise from thinking itself, then? It arises where the mind wishes to discern what is true from what is false. By its naturally dualistic structure, it has no capacity to do this and so must resort to concepts and ideas.
Originally Posted by O'nus
Not Believing in God = More Intelligent
Evidence speaks for itself;
There are more sources upon request. More specifically, the more education, the more Atheist one becomes.
I wouldn't call this evidence, I'd call it a (vague) chart. I can go ahead and make such a chart with Excel right now. If you're going to post these images, source them properly and make sure they're a good enough resolution/size so others can read it.
Originally Posted by O'nus
Thusly..
Firstly, just because there is a perennial philosohy or common theme amongst things, does not mean that all things are one and that all things are essentially meaningless to question.
That's not what I meant by Perennial Philosophy. I posted it for some extra insight. Is a universal truth something I can prove?
Originally Posted by O'nus
How do you think the scientific endeavour functions; on the idea that all things are subjectively truthful in the right perception, or to doubt things and question their structure? Remember, science and logic is applicable to all things.
It is naive to think science is applicable to all things, but you may mean all material (objective) "things". Science is useful in the world to form theories and experiments, to discover facts and draw conclusions. In the world of information and numbers, science is essential. However, ordinary science has no place in the spiritual paradigm, the subjective paradigm as there is no way to comprehend experience as it is, instead of as it is conceptualized. The Self-evident requires no proof, only awareness - and awareness is not susceptible to science's domain.
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