Thread: I would probably give $1,000,000 to anyone that could convince me that God exists.

Wait... there was divinely ordered mass genocide in Twilight?

Have you even read the Bible Noogah?

Originally Posted by Noogah

I'm trying to make a point.

I can't possibly list EVERY source of information that I've used in my lifetime up 'til now.

Good, because he didn't ask you to.

Originally Posted by Noogah

Once you have cited every source of information you've used to accumulate all the knowledge and opinions you now hold, I will do the same.

*Cracks knuckles*

Let's see...there was Biology since the 7th grade or so to present.
AP Biology
Chemistry
Philosophy
Online sources far too numerous to list
The fossil record
Overwhelming evidence (which includes the fossil record)
Being raised by rational parents
My textbooks
Being taught to be open-minded
Occam's Razor
The scientific method
The ability to see the similarities between ancient organisms and modern-day ones
Dinosaurs
A firm concept of "evolution"
That chunk of the brain that deals with logic and rational thinking

...and the list goes on. Surely you could come up with a fraction of the information I've listed above. Hmm?

Did you guys know that all this humbug was started just because of one sentence?

Fine.

Let me spell it out to you if you can't understand such an obvious point.

I can't list every book I've read in my lifetime.

Thankyou.

I do not intend to even begin trying.

I am quite secure enough in the knowledge of my own academic achievement that I don't feel the need to prove it to a bunch of forum users that I've never even seen before.

If you don't believe me, whatever. I really don't care diddly squat what you think about my education/information.

You people take this place way to seriously. I really wish you would cool off.

Originally Posted by Unelias

Sadly, The Bible seems to need that label so there is no room for misunderstanding.

Rubbish.

Go stick the label on a text book.

Go stick the label anywhere.

Even though I may seem stupid to you, at least I respect the views of others. If someone believes something that you do not believe to be true, there is no need for a heart attack, or a rediculous sticker.

Take a deep breath, close your eyes, relax, walk away, and then go eat a bowl ice cream. Trust me, you will feel much better.

Afterall, if it is just fiction, why make such a big deal about wether or not people believe it?

All you're posts just dance around questions. Your responses never offer any insight and only waste time. So please...

Originally Posted by Noogah

I am quite secure enough in the knowlege of my own academic achievement that I don't feel the need to prove it to a bunch of forum users that I've never even seen before.

You people take this place way to seriously. I really wish you would cool off.

Even though I may seem stupid to you, at least I respect the views of others. If someone believes something that you do not believe to be true, there is no need for a heart attack, or a rediculous sticker.

Afterall, if it is just fiction, why make such a big deal about wether or not people believe it?

Firstly, you have made accusations against others several times in threads; so when you say you ought not have to prove yourself to us, you are failing to see how it is actually you proving to yourself that you are right. It is my personal mandate to be proven wrong not to prove others wrong. If I am wrong about something, I learn. I would rather learn than have a glory day.

Secondly, this material is my life - and it is very important for the globe to acknowledge - and it does.

Thirdly, there is a major reason to be concerned about others beliefs;
- They can teach it to others
- It can be destructive
- Misleading children with beliefs is very easy
- Beliefs are political tools and it is easily taken advantage of (how many people vote just based off of beliefs is remarkable)
- It is invasive into other forms of knowledge (ie. science)
- Beliefs can invade businesses (eg. Muslims and their issue with interest)
- Religiousness can be utilized to justify ridiculous crimes (eg. Charles Manson, Abortion murders)

Hence, it is very important what others think.

~

Originally Posted by O'nus

I would rather learn than have a glory day.

Ditto. At least YOU know how to act maturely. Why don't you tell me what you think I could learn here. And that is not sarcasm.

Originally Posted by O'nus

Hence, it is very important what others think.

...to you.

Also, it depends on who is believing what about whom.

In this case, Who[these forum users] believe what[I have no sources other than the Bible] about whom[me]

In this case, it is of very little importance to me.

Why are my reasons, why you ought to be concerned what others believe, not applicable to you?

I plan on arguing for god in my next post. First, which god are we talking about anyway?

~

Originally Posted by O'nus

Why are my reasons, why you ought to be concerned what others believe, not applicable to you?

I didn't ask. I asked what you think I can learn from this thread.

Originally Posted by O'nus

I plan on arguing for god in my next post. First, which god are we talking about anyway?

...what?? We weren't discussing God/a god.

Noogah, when O'nus says "Hence" it means he's giving a logical conclusion that
follows from everything said prior. It's not an opinion. To say that it only
matters to him means that you willingly ignore the fact that other beliefs may
or may not be harmful to human beings. You are essentially saying, "I don't
care" to every item presented on that list of detrimental effects of beliefs. Do
you really not care that other people are actually getting hurt because of
their/others beliefs?

Originally Posted by Noogah

I didn't ask. I asked what you think I can learn from this thread.



...what?? We weren't discussing God/a god.

I mentioned god independent of our conversation. It is the threads title you know.

Maybe you could learn that it is very important what people believe and how people easily delude themselves (as well as others). Let us not forget that christianity initially boomed because of emperor constantines will to have a glorious empire - not for the love of Jesus (hence why so many pagan holidays are mixed with Christian, not to mention a plethora of other reasons).

~

Originally Posted by Noogah

I do not intend to even begin trying.

This why I detest you. You are merely a coward who doesn't even have guts to explain or defend yourself and your so-called-faith. You do this every time. You have no objectical evidence, but you even refuse to share your subjective evidence, even if it has no value to the actual debate.

Originally Posted by Noogah

I am quite secure enough in the knowledge of my own academic achievement that I don't feel the need to prove it to a bunch of forum users that I've never even seen before.

It seems that your academical whatsoever is being overun even by standard Finnish high schooler here, since I led her to read these threads and even she can she the huge flaws in your thinking and reasoning. Seriously, what you have done in your academic years? Drank too much or prayed too much instead of actual studying?

Originally Posted by Noogah

Even though I may seem stupid to you, at least I respect the views of others. If someone believes something that you do not believe to be true, there is no need for a heart attack, or a rediculous sticker.

I too respect if it is mere change of views. This however turns always a debate so in since the goal of debate is to make your opponent's view lose its grounding, there is no problem there. I am very "cool" here, just until now I decided not to be that polite anymore, since this seems to be only way to get your kind of people respond in some level. When we politely ask you for references, cites, explanations, views, whatever that is inconvinient for your own cause : you hide under a rock. Or bible to that matter.

Now the core reason why I act like this is because you believe. The word believe. Faith. That is bane of humankind. It should be abolished and eraised from our conciousness. I detest it. Most of the world problems exist because people believe in something. Religions, ideals, other people. Relying on faith prevents people from thinking rationally and logically, it enables life to be build on lies and deception. It is hollow life. I find this remarkably ironic since nihilism is usually referred as "religion of void" and it is said that nihilists lead an empty life. Truthfully, our life is more real than that of a theist. How wicked is that?

Originally Posted by Noogah

Afterall, if it is just fiction, why make such a big deal about wether or not people believe it?

Are you serious? So you are really agreeing that it is safe that people start to believe whatever it is written in a piece of paper. It doesn't matter that they get twisted justifications and reasons to kill, torture, meddle, start wars, rape, hurt other people? Well those are normal regardless, but I don't want anyone to believe that it is righteous because "a GoD TOlD mE TO dO SO, so THAt mAKes ME thE HOly AVenGeR!!!!

Why do you think there are mental wards? People who start to believe in voices in their head or see hallucinations are put in there. I see no difference there if someone believes i.e Bible to be true. I wouldn't care if they all were put in to asylym. There is actually not much difference.

There is a difference if a sixteen year old girl fantasies about Twilight to be true because it is so cool than six year old being fed with religion and end his life at sixteen by bombing a school and exploiding himself. On top of that he thinks he gets into heaven. How twisted is that?

Now since we run into these kind of things in regular basis nowadays, I took freedom to add this.

Spoiler for Atheist debating theist:

Top 10 Conversation Killers for Atheists : How Religious Theists Can Hurt Their Cause

1. Presume to instruct us that we're "really" agnostics, not atheists
2. Presume to preach and proselytize, as if we needed it
3. Commit obvious and egregious logical fallacies
4. Try to "prove" something by quoting the Bible
5. Threaten us with damnation or say atheism is a "bad bet"
6. Pretend that they don't have the burden of proof
7. Cut & paste arguments from others that you can't defend
8. Ignore what we say and pretend that we didn't just object to that argument
9. Offer that same argument again that we've refuted a million times
10. Announce that they'll be praying for us.

The whole article can be found here, with explanations for every step.

Did you guys know that all this humbug was started just because of one sentence?

Fine.

Let me spell it out to you if you can't understand such an obvious point.

I can't list every book I've read in my lifetime.

Which is clearly not what you were being asked for.

Good, because he didn't ask you to.

I don't believe you're still using this strawman. Nobody is asking you to do this, nobody ever asked you to do this, and you know that nobody ever asked you to do this. Why are you so goddamn terrified of answering the actual question?

Afterall, if it is just fiction, why make such a big deal about wether or not people believe it?

ummmm duno lol!?

Noogah, you ignorant dunce, I'm not asking you for every source that led to your current school of thought, I'm merely asking for a handful of events that impacted your life and your views, ultimately leading to your complete distrust of evolution and how you see it as a disease and pollutant to society. I am fed up with being polite. Answer the question, you coward.

Originally Posted by Unelias

So you are really agreeing that it is safe that people start to believe whatever it is written in a piece of paper.

Certainly not. I never did. Two different scenarios. The five thousand year old Bible backed up by historical records around the world is far more then a piece of paper with writing on it.

Originally Posted by Unelias

It doesn't matter that they get twisted justifications and reasons to kill, torture, meddle, start wars, rape, hurt other people?

Apparently you never even looked in the Bible.

None of those things are supported by it. Anybody can claim that they are following the Bible, and not be.

Originally Posted by Xei

ummmm duno lol!?

Those pictures have nothing to do with Christianity. Certainly not the Bible.

Originally Posted by Mario92

Answer the question, you coward.

Look. Hang the insults, and don't bother saying that you ever even tried to be polite. If you did, you failed.

Since it is a matter between life and death to you, I will answer the question, on one condition.

DON'T DEBATE MY HISTORY!!!!

The whole reason that I was reluctant to post it was because I knew I would have to deal with pages and pages of flac telling me how dumb it was, and I would be obliged to respond to those as well, leading to a tiresome loop of off topic debating that I am not entirely in the mood for right now.

I was born Christian, and raised Christian. Church, Bible, and everything.

Alas, you can't be born born again, and being the person that I am, it did not take long for me to examine the realism of the Bible. Being more or less afraid to abandon faith, I took a non literal stance, such as, the gap theory.

Of course, anyone with any knowledge of the Bible will understand quite well how these theories are flawed, and I studied about Evolution, and got to know it better. From the beginning, I was rather confused and wierded out by the claims Evolutionists made, and began to think that maybe the Bible was not as strange in comparison to "science" as I thought perhaps it was.

Reading obscure creationist material off the web made me even more doubtful, but still unconvinced. I was quite confused between the two, and would read articles about both. I did, at one point, attend a Kent Hovind seminar, which I thought at the time was capital, until further research proved his arguments more or less nostalgic.

I ordered the Answers In Genesis magazine, and attended the museum. I started to realize how traditional Church is. People have all the Bible stories in their heads. The classic Noah's ark...

the classic Nativity scene...

and all the cartoonish outlandish scenes in your head. Re examining these stories, I realized that they weren't totally far out. Digging through various articles, books, magazines, and seminars, I formed a much more realistic vision of the Bible.

At the same time, I also learned more about Evolution. To be fair, it wasn't as stupid as I had originally thought either. Rather than finding a sloppily made desperate attempt at a theory, I found a very well constructed, well thought out scientific diagram.

But further study revealed that Evolution does the same thing as it's subject material. It's always evolving. With new technology and scientific understanding coming out, previous assumptions that Evolution was based on became useless, and the theories were scrapped, and new ones were started.

Everybody I talked too who believed Evolution had a completely different point of view than others, and it turns out, Evolution is extremely unstable. It never quite fit for me, and eventually it seemed that logic was on Creation's side.

Here I am now.

That is a rather broad scope of my history. To tell it in finer detail would be boring for me, and whoever bothers to read this.

Originally Posted by Noogah

Certainly not. I never did. Two different scenarios. The five thousand year old Bible backed up by historical records around the world is far more then a piece of paper with writing on it.

There is no difference. Bible was never published as a whole in an instant. Everybody can ( and have) added their own things in it.

Apparently you never even looked in the Bible.

I have read it many times. Usually when I am depressed, I open it since it always gives me a good laugh. I have also participated on several bible reading circles just to understand better the beliefs of christians and to conversate and point out those very questionable flaws in it.

None of those things are supported by it. Anybody can claim that they are following the Bible, and not be.

Bible supports many things. It allows killing in many forms for very trivial reasons. But you have made a very serious point here, finally. Anybody can claim that they are following the Bible, and not be.
. They BELIEVE they are following it and since it has been so cleverly written in metaphorical and symbolical way. ( which can be intepreted basically to everything if you need, even though translations are often so pathethic and transparent ) Therefore, their belief that they are translating something "holy" in a right way leads them to believe they are on on a righteous vengeange for all beloved god.

I can somehow live with believers who keep their trap shut and keep their delutions inside their head. It's their freedom to believe. But if they in any way bring their beliefs out, use them to preach, to justificate something, to prove something. Well, I have no problem if somebody wanted to kill them. I am fine with that. Faith brings only despair to this world.

Those pictures have nothing to do with Christianity. Certainly not the Bible.

They do. Also with general religion. I don't want to draw conclusions because of your earlier behavior, but is it safe to assume that you have no idea what crusaders were and what fueled their ambitions? Holy Land? The True Cross? All those slaughtered muslims, martial and civil in Jerusalem, the Holiest City of Them All?

Look. Hang the insults, and don't bother saying that you ever even tried to be polite. If you did, you failed.

I was. Pity there is no further need for it. Rules were made clear, you just kept on going circles so that releases me and anybody else for being even distantly polite.

The whole reason that I was reluctant to post it was because I knew I would have to deal with pages and pages of flac telling me how dumb it was, and I would be obliged to respond to those as well, leading to a tiresome loop of off topic debating that I am not entirely in the mood for right now.

I was born Christian, and raised Christian. Church, Bible, and everything.

Alas, you can't be born born again, and being the person that I am, it did not take long for me to examine the realism of the Bible. Being more or less afraid to abandon faith, I took a non literal stance, such as, the gap theory.

Of course, anyone with any knowledge of the Bible will understand quite well how these theories are flawed, and I studied about Evolution, and got to know it better. From the beginning, I was rather confused and wierded out by the claims Evolutionists made, and began to think that maybe the Bible was not as strange in comparison to "science" as I thought perhaps it was.

Reading obscure creationist material off the web made me even more doubtful, but still unconvinced. I was quite confused between the two, and would read articles about both. I did, at one point, attend a Kent Hovind seminar, which I thought at the time was capital, until further research proved his arguments more or less nostalgic.

I ordered the Answers In Genesis magazine, and attended the museum. I started to realize how traditional Church is. People have all the Bible stories in their heads. The classic Noah's ark...

Now this has already a bit explanation within it. This was remotely something like that at least I want in answers. Did you never feel that you could abandon your faith? If not, what kept you in it? Fear? Confidence? Nothing better to take? Some kind of subjective epiphany? At least now, with your explanation my attitude against you have shifted a bit. Admiting that you have had doubts and confusion just shows that you are healthy.

At the same time, I also learned more about Evolution. To be fair, it wasn't as stupid as I had originally thought either. Rather than finding a sloppily made desperate attempt at a theory, I found a very well constructed, well thought out scientific diagram.

But further study revealed that Evolution does the same thing as it's subject material. It's always evolving. With new technology and scientific understanding coming out, previous assumptions that Evolution was based on became useless, and the theories were scrapped, and new ones were started.

Everybody I talked too who believed Evolution had a completely different point of view than others, and it turns out, Evolution is extremely unstable. It never quite fit for me, and eventually it seemed that logic was on Creation's side.

This is because the world is in constant turmoil and chaos. Chaos and change exists everywhere. Everything changes, nothing is eternal. Eternity is only a concept created by humans, since they are so afraid of growing old and dying. This is true with science too, it is the basis of it. Science flows, it changes, new theories are found, old ones are discarded since they didn't explain the phenomenon that accuratetly or were completely wrong. Nobody in science world believes that something is absolute truth. This is a difference with religious world and scientific world. Scientist are used to this mechanic and refuse to believe anything to be true forever. This is because science is not based on faith or belief. It is based on facts, which however can change. Untill they do, they are considered as facts. That is why there is hypothesis and theory in science terminology. A theory, not a truth, not a law.

Unless you accept this kind of thinking, I am sure you find i.e evolution extremely odd concept. A scientist must have a very open mind, but it must be backed up by extreme scepticism. If you don't, you'll go on believing whatever you come up with without proper evidence. Science has a very good grounding to be proper authority, but even it shouldn't be regarded as ultimate authority. It has very good benefits, as set of rules that protect the scientific method and make it a lot more accurate. A lot more accurate than faith could ever be. That is just sad but true.

Those pictures have nothing to do with Christianity. Certainly not the Bible.

The second picture is of the crusades. :l

You seem to be ignorant of the fact that the Bible endorses genocide in many passages, for example,

Samuel 15:2-3

Thus saith the LORD of hosts ... go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

The Bible also commands stoning to death in many passages, for example,

Leviticus 24:10-16,23

Then the LORD said to Moses: "Take the blasphemer outside the camp. All those who heard him are to lay their hands on his head, and the entire assembly is to stone him. Say to the Israelites: 'If anyone curses his God, he will be held responsible; anyone who blasphemes the name of the LORD must be put to death. The entire assembly must stone him. Whether an alien or native-born, when he blasphemes the Name, he must be put to death.

Then Moses spoke to the Israelites, and they took the blasphemer outside the camp and stoned him. The Israelites did as the LORD commanded Moses.

If you still don't believe me then just read the damn thing.

But further study revealed that Evolution does the same thing as it's subject material. It's always evolving. With new technology and scientific understanding coming out, previous assumptions that Evolution was based on became useless, and the theories were scrapped, and new ones were started.

Everybody I talked too who believed Evolution had a completely different point of view than others, and it turns out, Evolution is extremely unstable. It never quite fit for me, and eventually it seemed that logic was on Creation's side.

No, the theory of evolution by natural selection has been the following since Darwin suggested it:

1. We observe that there is variation within species. It follows that some members of a species are better adapted to their environments than others.
2. It follows that these members have a greater chance of surviving and passing on those variations to later generations.
3. Therefore over time species become more adapted to their environments.

There is plenty of evidence that this happens (evolution has been observed, and there is a large fossil record which supports it. It's also fairly obvious that it should happen; why would the environment not do the same thing that we do when we breed animals?).

There is no evidence however that all organisms on the planet were created by a God, and no evidence that any such God must have been the God of the Bible.

(Unless you have some..?).

Xei,

You forgot some of my favorite quotes on "god" ordered genocide and ethnic cleasing and sexual slavery :

Numbers 31:7-18 NLT)
They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. All five of the Midianite kings – Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba – died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho.

Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded. "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.

What amuses me about this so much is that as I remember its that Moses chap who was rather big on a certain list of 10 "Donts" - seems they are designed to be applied selectivley.

Here's another one of my faves :

Deuteronomy 20:10-14)
As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.


WARNING TO THE OP

You are going to lose your money!!!!!!!!

I would withdraw your bet as the following quote directly from the loin clothed one would seem to suggest that any man of faith should be able to move mountains and perform other wonders:

Mark 11:24-25 NAB
Amen, I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, 'Be lifted up and thrown into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it shall be done for him. Therefore I tell you, all that you ask for in prayer, believe that you will receive it and it shall be yours.

Pat on the back to me. Instead of random bible quotes used by fundies on this board in a sad attempt to prove a point - I, a proud hater of all things fundie and xtian in general found one that actually WORKS for the purpose of this thread.

All Noogah or Klingerman need to do to make a quick 1000000$ is to pray tonight for mount everest to be dropped in the sea. The world's News organisations are sure to notice the sudden absence of the worlds most famous mountain and the sudden appearance of a new island. Surely were this to happen then the OP would have to admit that this was pretty impressive and cough up! BRILLIANT!

Originally Posted by Noogah

Since it is a matter between life and death to you, I will answer the question, on one condition.

DON'T DEBATE MY HISTORY!!!!

The whole reason that I was reluctant to post it was because I knew I would have to deal with pages and pages of flac telling me how dumb it was, and I would be obliged to respond to those as well, leading to a tiresome loop of off topic debating that I am not entirely in the mood for right now.

I was born Christian, and raised Christian. Church, Bible, and everything.

Alas, you can't be born born again, and being the person that I am, it did not take long for me to examine the realism of the Bible. Being more or less afraid to abandon faith, I took a non literal stance, such as, the gap theory.

Of course, anyone with any knowledge of the Bible will understand quite well how these theories are flawed, and I studied about Evolution, and got to know it better. From the beginning, I was rather confused and wierded out by the claims Evolutionists made, and began to think that maybe the Bible was not as strange in comparison to "science" as I thought perhaps it was.

Reading obscure creationist material off the web made me even more doubtful, but still unconvinced. I was quite confused between the two, and would read articles about both. I did, at one point, attend a Kent Hovind seminar, which I thought at the time was capital, until further research proved his arguments more or less nostalgic.

I ordered the Answers In Genesis magazine, and attended the museum. I started to realize how traditional Church is. People have all the Bible stories in their heads. The classic Noah's ark...
the classic Nativity scene...

and all the cartoonish outlandish scenes in your head. Re examining these stories, I realized that they weren't totally far out. Digging through various articles, books, magazines, and seminars, I formed a much more realistic vision of the Bible.

At the same time, I also learned more about Evolution. To be fair, it wasn't as stupid as I had originally thought either. Rather than finding a sloppily made desperate attempt at a theory, I found a very well constructed, well thought out scientific diagram.

But further study revealed that Evolution does the same thing as it's subject material. It's always evolving. With new technology and scientific understanding coming out, previous assumptions that Evolution was based on became useless, and the theories were scrapped, and new ones were started.

Everybody I talked too who believed Evolution had a completely different point of view than others, and it turns out, Evolution is extremely unstable. It never quite fit for me, and eventually it seemed that logic was on Creation's side.

Here I am now.

That is a rather broad scope of my history. To tell it in finer detail would be boring for me, and whoever bothers to read this.

THANK YOU!!!! That was all I was asking for.

You guys, you're taking these verses out of context.

When God commanded an act of violence, he did not say to perform it alway, it was on the one occasion. Read the entire story before coming to the conclusion that one command meant that it had to be performed all the time to everybody.

Originally Posted by Xei

The second picture is of the crusades.

What do the crusades have to do with the Bible?

Originally Posted by Noogah

You guys, you're taking these verses out of context.

When God commanded an act of violence, he did not say to perform it alway, it was on the one occasion. Read the entire story before coming to the conclusion that one command meant that it had to be performed all the time to everybody.

Ah, so If I don't kill people consistently, just on special occasions, there's no problem with?

Originally Posted by Scatterbrain

Ah, so If I don't kill people consistently, just on special occasions, there's no problem with?

It depends really.

If a guys runs into your house, and starts to strangle your four year old daughter, I think you are justified in shooting him.

If somebody pulls out a gun and starts to shoot at you, I think you are justified in shooting him.


Death is a part of life, as is defense, and killing. God never condoned killing in itself,

Originally Posted by Exodus 20:13, King James Version

Thou shalt not kill.

but there are times when it is not merely killing, it is defense, and corporal punishment.(O NOES!NOT COPORAL PUNISHMENT1!!!!1!11!!!!!)

Originally Posted by Noogah

God never condoned killing in itself,

Why did he create it then? Is he not all powerful?

Originally Posted by Noogah

but there are times when it is not merely killing, it is defense, and corporal punishment.

The last time I checked, to kill meant only one thing.

In the defense department:

You have heard that it was said, "An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth." But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.

So even if kill didn't mean only one thing, Jesus says that the best defense is no defense at all. Unless this was a metaphor used by Jesus to say "you can kill in defense".

Originally Posted by Bonsay

You have heard that it was said, "An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth." But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.

So even if kill didn't mean only one thing, Jesus says that the best defense is no defense at all. Unless this was a metaphor used by Jesus to say "you can kill in defense".

"Cheek" is a symbolic term for "fist".