Thread: The Nature of Satan

Originally Posted by Noogah

You may as well ask: What do you consider water? In which case, the answer would obviously be, whatever is water.

The same goes for evil. Whatever is evil, I consider evil.

This makes very little sense. There is only one thing that has been called water, and that is water. There are many things that have been called evil. Some people have said murder is evil. Some people have said stealing is evil. Some people have said smoking marijuana is evil. Some people have said that money is the root of all evil. Different people consider different things to be evil. What is your perspective?

Again what is your definition of evil?

If your having a hard time putting it into words consider this: What makes one thing evil and another good? Is it an inherent quality of an object or event, or is it more complex than that? What are the characteristics of evil?

Originally Posted by Noogah

How strong Statan's desire for world peace is, I can't say. It may only be a small goal for him. Either way, I believe he would still like to accomplish it. And, yes, God's goal is for world peace, as is shown to happen after the seven year tribulation.

So why has it taken God so long to getting around to this world peace business? Isn't he Omnipotent? If he wants it why doesn't he just make it happen? Is it a large goal for God?

Originally Posted by Noogah

No, I said he wants peace for humanity, and destruction for Christians. And either way, he has accomplished destruction no matter his goals.

Satan does NOT want peace. Satan gives the illusion of the desire for peace to trick creation. His real desire is domination. He is the father of all lies. When he wins everyone over they are in for a nasty surprise. HELL. Think of your worst nightmare and that will be your hell. Of course, according to the Holy Book of Fairy Tales, God wins in the end. I learned this when I was a "faithful christian".

Young preacher, study history, study science, better yet go to church and actually listen. Write down all of the times you hear "the word" and say to yourself, "huh?" What they say in church does not match up with the truth. Take your bible out whenever there is an impending church split and ask the elders to actually follow the word. You will see.

Noogah I'm sorry to say this but either you are deliberately skipping around facts to piss us off or you are intellectually impared.

Okay, first, about taking the verses out of context. You tell me, please, what has been taken out of context? What is there to take out of context? It's in the context of God commanding people to fucking kill other people. It's true, I read it in the bloody bible. If you look up the verses I quoted, you can see for yourself that they are in the context of God commanding people to fucking kill other people.

I don't care if you won't admit to this, but you obviously just skimmed over all of the texts and brushed it aside in your head with this automatic response. Some part of yourself, probably the human side, can't bear that God would possibly command genocide against his own creation, so you cover it up and just keep the good parts.

And also, of course incest might not be directly mentioned in the bible (but I bet it is), but the point everyone's trying to make is that incest must have happened in order for people to be descended from Adam and Eve. This is something that you must accept, so why do you respond negatively? If God intended Adam and Eve to populate the Earth, which you believe, and that he condoned it, which you believe, then God was by definition condoning incest.

By deduction we can also say that God still condones incest because God does not change as it says in Malachai (3:6).

It would be much better for you to take a non literal approach to the bible, it's embarassing and it is so obvious that the bible contradicts itself all over the place. This is in no way a threat to your Christianity, if you think it is then explain to us why you still believed the bible was the word of God even though it never speaks of Jesus ever commanding anyone to write down anything. The word of God should be Jesus' words, but you have absolutely no way of knowing that they have not been changed. On the other hand, we in the fields of reality understand that his words clearly have been changed, by looking at archaeological evidence, while the rest of the Christian world have not evolved past their preference of new books simply because they are not tatty.

You could go so far as to simply accepting a Jesus as an archetypal figure, and actually using your brain to sort out moral situations, but I do not mean for you to go that far. To me Christianity makes enough sense as long as it's not bloody literal. Check your facts, please!

"Noah was spared because amidst all the evils of the world, he was righteous. And if he hadn't, you wouldn't be where you are as you read."

Why is that a good thing? If Noah hadn't been spared then I wouldn't be on my way to hell would I?

Originally Posted by Idolfan

You tell me, please, what has been taken out of context? What is there to take out of context?

Dude. There's nothing to discuss. It's not some kind of frantic excuse. I didn't even need to think about it. It's clear and simple to understand, and if you refuse to acknowledge it, I am not insulting you by saying you are seriously biased. However, you will obviously not leave me alone unless I explain myself, so I will:

You cannot cut three words out of a 1,000+ word chapter, and expect it to make the same sense it was supposed to make when it was in the Bible, or any other book for that matter. It erases the cause, it erases the events leading up to it, and it erases what happens afterwords. I'm not going to flood you with examples, because I don't believe you need them. I think you know exactly what I'm talking about, and I think you know exactly the flaws of quoting out of context. If you SERIOUSLY don't understand the concept of quoting things out of context, then read this Wikipedia article.

I don't care if you won't admit to this, but you obviously just skimmed over all of the texts and brushed it aside in your head with this automatic response.

Of course I admit to it. I saw a bunch of patches cut out of the Bible, and immediately knew what was up.

This is something that you must accept, so why do you respond negatively?

Oh, well of course. I didn't think you meant THAT. Answer's simple:

It happened before incest was forbidden. LONG before. And it wasn't a very strange concept either, seeing as there was no one else around getting married. It was only natural.

Also, no. God doesn't change, but his rules did. Even so, he never "changed" his rule on incest, as he never specifically forbade it, nor did he permit it before he made it against the rules. That is to my knowledge.

It would be much better for you to take a non literal approach to the bible, it's embarassing and it is so obvious that the bible contradicts itself all over the place.

Do you have an alternative to taking it literally? Everything it says has proven true to me...

Funny. I never saw a contradiction. You might want to show me one.

if you think it is then explain to us why you still believed the bible was the word of God even though it never speaks of Jesus ever commanding anyone to write down anything.

Because Jesus acknowledged the written word of God, and even quoted it on occasion.

The word of God should be Jesus' words

Yes. Father/Son/Holy Ghost.

On the other hand, we in the fields of reality understand that his words clearly have been changed, by looking at archaeological evidence, while the rest of the Christian world have not evolved past their preference of new books simply because they are not tatty.

1.No they haven't. If you still insist that they do, demonstrate.

2.What? Tatty? Is that really what you think? Really?

Why is that a good thing? If Noah hadn't been spared then I wouldn't be on my way to hell would I?

You wouldn't even exist. Body, or soul.

Originally Posted by stonedape

There is only one thing that has been called water....What is your perspective?

True, maybe water isn't the best analogy. Let's use human's.

Indians.

Asians

Caucasians.

Mexicans.

Africans.

Germans.

In the end, they're all human.

If he wants it why doesn't he just make it happen?

If he did that, what about the poor bloaks who wouldn't get a shot at salvation? He's giving us time.

Originally Posted by Noogah

True, maybe water isn't the best analogy. Let's use human's.

Indians.

Asians

Caucasians.

Mexicans.

Africans.

Germans.

In the end, they're all human.

But only humans are called humans. There aren't certain people who call rocks humans. Evil is in the eye of the beholder. I've been told that premarital sex is evil. I have also been told that killing people is evil. Now these two things have completely opposite effects, and very different sensations are produced by both. How can they both be evil? One feels good, the other feels bad. One creates life, one destroys it. I smell something funny.

Why are somethings called evil? Does evil "exist" in the same ways that water or humanity does? Does it describe certain characteristics? How can I tell if something is evil or not?

I've spent my entire life trying to get a hold of some pure evil, and I can't find it anywhere. It seems almost like it doesn't exist, like it was just a word that someone put in my head to scare me away from the good stuff.

Do you really not understand the question? What is evil? You've avoided answering it 3 times now. Now THAT's evil.

Originally Posted by Noogah

If he did that, what about the poor bloaks who wouldn't get a shot at salvation? He's giving us time.

Why wait? Salvation is all around you.

Originally Posted by stonedape

Evil is in the eye of the beholder.

But you see, it is your point of view that makes it an impossible question for me. I don't believe mankind can choose what, or what is not evil, and I don't believe I have the authority to say so. As you said: You can call a rock a human, yet it will remain a rock. I believe the same applies to evil. You can call something evil, or good, but it will remain what it is.

If I can decide what is evil, then what if to me, murder is not an evil? How about I go murder your best friend/sibling/spouse/parents? Would you prosecute me? Well,I'm gonna assume your answer is yes. But, by your logic, the answer should certainly be NO. Because, it was right to me, was it not? So what right have you to tell me that what I did was wrong? If the government followed your same example, they would probably say, sorry man. It was right by him, so no consequences. You would want justice, right? You might murder me, as it would be right by you. That would lead to mass chaos, and somewhere along the line, the apocalypse would occur.

Anyways, I'm not avoiding the question, you're avoiding my answer: My answer is, I can't call the shots. What is evil is evil, and unless you are very depraved, you should pretty much get a gut feeling for what is evil and what is not. Being mortal, I don't believe we can identify evil 100%, although I believe it's there. That is one of (but not the only, mind you) reasons God gives Christian's the Holy Spirit at salvation: So that the Christian can clearly distinguish between what is right and wrong.

Originally Posted by stonedape

Why wait? Salvation is all around you.

Good question! Ask the people who don't listen.

Originally Posted by Noogah

But you see, it is your point of view that makes it an impossible question for me. I don't believe mankind can choose what, or what is not evil, and I don't believe I have the authority to say so. As you said: You can call a rock a human, yet it will remain a rock. I believe the same applies to evil. You can call something evil, or good, but it will remain what it is.

If I can decide what is evil, then what if to me, murder is not an evil? How about I go murder your best friend/sibling/spouse/parents? Would you prosecute me? Well,I'm gonna assume your answer is yes. But, by your logic, the answer should certainly be NO. Because, it was right to me, was it not? So what right have you to tell me that what I did was wrong? If the government followed your same example, they would probably say, sorry man. It was right by him, so no consequences. You would want justice, right? You might murder me, as it would be right by you. That would lead to mass chaos, and somewhere along the line, the apocalypse would occur.

Anyways, I'm not avoiding the question, you're avoiding my answer: My answer is, I can't call the shots. What is evil is evil, and unless you are very depraved, you should pretty much get a gut feeling for what is evil and what is not. Being mortal, I don't believe we can identify evil 100%, although I believe it's there. That is one of (but not the only, mind you) reasons God gives Christian's the Holy Spirit at salvation: So that the Christian can clearly distinguish between what is right and wrong.

This raises so many problems...

First of all, how do you know that what you believe to be "evil" really is evil? What if your God smiles upon raping and killing? There is no way to know for sure within this lifetime if this is the case or not.

Second, if evil truly is beyond mankind (which also implies it is a tangible force in this universe), then it suppresses the growth of the human race, as it does not allow for changes and adaptions (though you'd probably see this problem more clearly if you believed in evolution).

Third, WTF? Seriously? Society tells you what is good and what is evil, and every society in the world is different and unique. Good and evil are SUBJECTIVE, not objective. Unless, of course, you're saying that only the Christian culture as defined by yourself with your values will go to heaven, and all else will burn in hell, which is something I take great issue with.

Originally Posted by Mario92

What if your God smiles upon raping and killing? There is no way to know for sure within this lifetime if this is the case or not.

He does not. The Holy Spirit, as well as the Bible easily confirm that.

Originally Posted by Mario92

Second, if evil truly is beyond mankind (which also implies it is a tangible force in this universe), then it suppresses the growth of the human race, as it does not allow for changes and adaptions

....no. There are obstacles in life that must be overcome, and those encourage growth. They do not discourage it. Evil exists, and should be avoided. The avoidance of evil does not hinder mankind's "growth", whatever that's supposed to mean.

Originally Posted by Mario92

you're saying that only the Christian culture as defined by yourself with your values will go to heaven

Evil is not subjective. It is indeed objective. Many foreign societies seem to believe that killing, and terrorism is very much right. Do you agree?

No, society does not choose it. Evil is there. All that must be done is to identify it.


You make the mistake of believing I look to my Christian brothers for moral guidelines. Well, I don't. There is only one I look to for help in these areas, and that is God. He is pure. There is no evil in him. Because of that, what is not of him is evil. That is, spiritually. It's like light as opposed to darkness. Once the light switches on, you can suddenly see what is what, and distingusih the darkness from the light.

Originally Posted by Noogah

He does not. The Holy Spirit, as well as the Bible easily confirm that.

...oh, boy. There really is no use in arguing with you, ya know that?

....no. There are obstacles in life that must be overcome, and those encourage growth. They do not discourage it. Evil exists, and should be avoided. The avoidance of evil does not hinder mankind's "growth", whatever that's supposed to mean.

It means that mankind is not allowed to evolve, adapt, and change its moral code as needed, which could be of definite hindrance, especially in the future.

Evil is not subjective. It is indeed objective. Many foreign societies seem to believe that killing, and terrorism is very much right. Do you agree?

And who are we to judge another culture's values and beliefs? Terrorism is "evil" to us in that it kills what we consider to be innocent individuals, but to the terrorists, it is "good" in that it destroys those unfit to live and puts otherwise superior nations in their place. It's all subjective.

No, society does not choose it. Evil is there. All that must be done is to identify it.

Let me guess, by using the bible, right?

You make the mistake of believing I look to my Christian brothers for moral guidelines. Well, I don't. There is only one I look to for help in these areas, and that is God. He is pure. There is no evil in him. Because of that, what is not of him is evil. That is, spiritually. It's like light as opposed to darkness. Once the light switches on, you can suddenly see what is what, and distingusih the darkness from the light.

I'll repeat myself: there really is no point in trying to argue with you.

Originally Posted by Noogah

He does not. The Holy Spirit, as well as the Bible easily confirm that.



....no. There are obstacles in life that must be overcome, and those encourage growth. They do not discourage it. Evil exists, and should be avoided. The avoidance of evil does not hinder mankind's "growth", whatever that's supposed to mean.



Evil is not subjective. It is indeed objective. Many foreign societies seem to believe that killing, and terrorism is very much right. Do you agree?

No, society does not choose it. Evil is there. All that must be done is to identify it.


You make the mistake of believing I look to my Christian brothers for moral guidelines. Well, I don't. There is only one I look to for help in these areas, and that is God. He is pure. There is no evil in him. Because of that, what is not of him is evil. That is, spiritually. It's like light as opposed to darkness. Once the light switches on, you can suddenly see what is what, and distingusih the darkness from the light.

assertions assertions assertions ...

Originally Posted by Noogah

But you see, it is your point of view that makes it an impossible question for me. I don't believe mankind can choose what, or what is not evil, and I don't believe I have the authority to say so. As you said: You can call a rock a human, yet it will remain a rock. I believe the same applies to evil. You can call something evil, or good, but it will remain what it is.

How does my point of view prevent you from answering the question? You can answer the question, I may not understand your explanation, but we can't find out unless you answer the question. What is so evil? If you do not have the authority to say what is evil then who does? If you do not have the authority to say why does your gut? Can't you take the signals given to you by your gut and articulate them?

We do choose what is evil and what is not. Our culture tells us what is good and what is evil. Religion is a part of culture, and for you religion tells you what is evil. You chose religion didn't you?

Originally Posted by Noogah

If I can decide what is evil, then what if to me, murder is not an evil? How about I go murder your best friend/sibling/spouse/parents? Would you prosecute me? Well,I'm gonna assume your answer is yes. But, by your logic, the answer should certainly be NO. Because, it was right to me, was it not? So what right have you to tell me that what I did was wrong? If the government followed your same example, they would probably say, sorry man. It was right by him, so no consequences. You would want justice, right? You might murder me, as it would be right by you. That would lead to mass chaos, and somewhere along the line, the apocalypse would occur.

Why is murder evil? Something doesn't have to be evil in order for me to prosecute you over it. I would be very sad if my friends or family were killed, but I still wouldn't consider you evil. I would consider you insane. I would think that the best thing that could happen now that they are gone is that you could maybe get some help. I don't see where evilness or punishment needs to come in.

Originally Posted by Noogah

Anyways, I'm not avoiding the question, you're avoiding my answer: My answer is, I can't call the shots. What is evil is evil, and unless you are very depraved, you should pretty much get a gut feeling for what is evil and what is not. Being mortal, I don't believe we can identify evil 100%, although I believe it's there. That is one of (but not the only, mind you) reasons God gives Christian's the Holy Spirit at salvation: So that the Christian can clearly distinguish between what is right and wrong.

Do you know what's right or don't you? First you say you can't call the shots, then you say christian can clearly distinguish between right and wrong.

Originally Posted by Carôusoul

>Implying I'm an atheist.

You're not? o.O

Originally Posted by OuroborosEterna

You're not? o.O

nope.

Originally Posted by Carôusoul

nope.

My apologies, I was under a false impression. I am now less confused about you.

Originally Posted by OuroborosEterna

My apologies, I was under a false impression. I am now less confused about you.

What were you confused about?

Originally Posted by Carôusoul

What were you confused about?

Based on the content of some of your posts I had assumed you were an atheist...however, some things in other posts seemed inconsistent with that.

A simple problem of flawed perception, is all.

Originally Posted by Mario92

I'll repeat myself: there really is no point in trying to argue with you.

Then I shan't pester you any longer, until you can...oh...I don't know. Explain yourself? Because I have no idea what I'm doing that should make you say that.

However, there is one small thing that distrubs me so much, I won't be able to rest until I repsond to it, and so I shall.

Originally Posted by Mario92

Let me guess, by using the bible, right?

That, and the Holy Spirit. Mind you, identification of evil. Like I said, I don't think evil is subjective. I think it exists, and I don't think that the Bible created it. Evil is there, and the Bible tells what it is, and the Holy Spirit aids Christians greatly. Unless, of course, you Evolutionists have an alternative method you use to prove that murder is evil.

Originally Posted by Noogah

Then I shan't pester you any longer, until you can...oh...I don't know. Explain yourself? Because I have no idea what I'm doing that should make you say that.

Wait for it...

That, and the Holy Spirit. Mind you, identification of evil. Like I said, I don't think evil is subjective. I think it exists, and I don't think that the Bible created it. Evil is there, and the Bible tells what it is, and the Holy Spirit aids Christians greatly. Unless, of course, you Evolutionists have an alternative method you use to prove that murder is evil.

Assertions assertions assertions. That's all you argue with is assertions. You have no proof nor evidence that the bible is truth, that the holy spirit exists, or that God exists. You may choose to believe so, but you are completely closed to reason and logic. No matter what kind of attack I mount, what tactics I use, how much evidence I compile, you will not budge; your mind is set.

Murder is "evil" at the moment because it is of hindrance to society and the progress of mankind. If people start killing each other left and right, how do you expect to grow as a civilization? But then again, murder is not exclusively evil. War would be one such example. it is not the most desirable means of dealing with a problem, but it cannot be considered evil when it is used in self-defense, or when soldiers don't really have much of a choice. There are exceptions to every rule. Now, say that the future rolls around and there are too damn many people. I can see murder being loosely justifiable...provided it advanced mankind and society for the better. Morals, mores, social norms, and the like all change with time. Nothing is permanent.

Here's a little example to demonstrate how twisted up and complicated the idea of EVIL gets in the real world....

Let's say you're walking though an alley beside a tall building in the middle of the day... the building is filled with people. In front of you are two men fiddling with wires or something, and suddenly you realize they're setting explosives around the building and preparing to blow it up. You hear them talking (they haven't seen you), and it becomes clear they're going to blow the building in just a few seconds... no time to call the police or any other authorities... they're just about to murder hundreds of innocent people right before your eyes.

Now... one of them has left a gun laying on a crate just in front of you.

It's up to you. With two quick pulls on the trigger you can save all those innocent people, or you can just slink away and hope the terrorists don't see you and try to live with yourself knowing you let them murder all those people.

... What does the bible say about a situation like this?

Also, as you heard them talking you realize they both have wives and children at home and they love them very much.

It's quite a sticky wicket, isn't it?

Now, where exactly does EVIL come in in this scenario? Are the terrorists evil?

And what if you kill them to save all those innocent souls? Are you then evil? Remember, as far as you know the men are actually innocent themselves... if you shoot them in time then they haven't killed anyone (as far as you know).... so you're killing innocent men. True they were PLANNING mass murder, but hadn't actually committed it yet.

Nobody can really say how they'd react in such a situation, but at least think honestly about it. Due to mitigating circumstances, what is clearly evil in one context can be less so... even necessary in others. Murder for instance.

Originally Posted by Mario92

Assertions assertions assertions. That's all you argue with is assertions. You have no proof nor evidence that the bible is truth, that the holy spirit exists, or that God exists.

Sure I do. But that's not with this thread is about. This thread is to debate the nature of Satan, not the existence of God or evil.

Originally Posted by Mario92

Murder is "evil" at the moment because it is of hindrance to society and the progress of mankind....Now, say that the future rolls around and there are too damn many people. I can see murder being loosely justifiable...provided it advanced mankind and society for the better.

Then I believe you are a rather sick person. Everybody has a right to live, as everybody is equal to everybody else. For an equal to kill an equal for no reason is sick and wrong.

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

It's up to you. With two quick pulls on the trigger you can save all those innocent people, or you can just slink away and hope the terrorists don't see you and try to live with yourself knowing you let them murder all those people.

... What does the bible say about a situation like this?

Nothing. Actually, this would be perfectly acceptable. You would not be murdering them, you would be shooting them in defense of about 5,000 other people. The Bible has nothing against defense, and fighting in war. Both are necessary at times. Also, I wouldn't try to kill them. I would shoot them in a sensitive spot with the intention of disabling them. Killing is rarely the only option.

A murder would be to got up to someone, shoot them in the head, and take all their money. No purpose. No justification.

Are the terrorists evil?

No, but what they're doing is evil.

Oh, and, if you guys respond, I might not be able to respond to you guys for a while. I think I'm getting sick, and I just can't debate when I'm sick. My mind turns to mush.

Originally Posted by Noogah

you Evolutionists

^Hehe, cute.

Satan is basically jealous of God's creation and wants to be antithetical to it, this predates Christianity way back to Zoroastrianism. I don't think that's a hard concept. So Satan feeds off our bad energy and creates a kingdom for himself right here in this world, like that big top mafia boss nobody can meet in person. it's easy for him, taking advantage of our original sin, our tendancy towards self annhilation.

You've heard the saying you don't believe in God but God believes in you, kind of corny, well if you don't believe in Satan than Satan believes he can beat you. What? there's no mafia..satan.

Originally Posted by Noogah

I just can't debate when I'm sick. My mind turns to mush.

You can't "debate" anyway.


To expand on this; I mean that in actual argument you state your viewpoint and then you give persuasive reasons as to why it's correct.

What you're doing is stating what you think over and over again. No justification, other than more things which are contentious. You're just shouting what you think is the case at someone and when they provide an argument you apparantely debate that simply by shouting what you think again. That is not debating.

This is what I mean in another post I did saying "assertions" repeatedly, because that's all your doing. You're asserting what you think is true over and over again. You're making massive assertions.

Shit like this:

Originally Posted by noogah

Everybody has a right to live, as everybody is equal to everybody else. For an equal to kill an equal for no reason is sick and wrong.

That is noyt an argument, iot's just you putting your fingers in your ears and repeatedly saying what you think. It's dumb and it isn't a debate, it's like trying to talk sense into a toddler who wants to live in his own fantasy world.

If someone asks a question don't reply just "no you are wrong it is actually like this", which is what you are doing. Instead reply "no you are wrong it is actually like this, and here are some clear undisputable reasons why:."

Originally Posted by Noogah

Then I believe you are a rather sick person. Everybody has a right to live, as everybody is equal to everybody else. For an equal to kill an equal for no reason is sick and wrong.

Everybody has a right to live? Everybody is equal? I'd like to see proof of these statements. What gives you the right to live and why would people be equal. I walk and look around, I sware, I've never seen an "equal" in my life. Face it, you have no rights and we are deffinitely not equal. We are naturally similar biologically, which has strong implications, but far from equal. Which is even more so supported by the various ways our societies have been structured. We structured our own rights, but there is no such thing as objective or innate rights. As much as people agree that they don't want to kill eacother, sooner or later you'll find somebody who will show you how many rights you have.