Thread: Question for Atheists.

Dark Matters:
It does say in the bible that you're supposed to love yourself.
"The foremost is, 'Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God is one Lord; and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.' "The second is this, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these." (NAS, Mark 12:28-31)
And God didn't instill sin, satan did.


Mario 92:

Many claimed contradictions in the Bible turn out to be translation difficulties and do not exist in the original manuscripts.The Bible was not written by Americans for an American audience. Every culture has its own traditions which affect the meanings of phrases and even individual words. Many claimed contradictions in the Bible turn out to be cases where American values and understandings are forced on Hebrew or Greek phrases.
One problem is that the original manuscripts were not in English; and translation then becomes an issue

And why is faith good? Our faith results in eternal life (salvation) given to us by God. "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life" (John 3:16). Unless our faith accomplishes eternal life, we do not have the right kind of faith. God never intended for Christians to come to their faith to escape problems in life. Nowhere are we promised we will not have problems, sickness, death, or will not suffer violence. What we are promised is that we will have a way of escape provided for us before we reach the breaking point , but that way of escape may be death. Because life here on earth is just a tiny part of the big picture, and only God can see the grand scheme of things. This is another reason why faith is good.
There are Some Things God Will Not Do. One thing God will not do is to violate the promises He has made. God has told us, "It is appointed unto man once I die, and after that to face judgment." God has promised us as humans that we will reap what we sow (Galatians 6:7). Sometimes we want to engage in destructive behaviors and then have God step in and stop the natural consequences of those behaviors. Not only does this apply to a situation like a smoker who gets lung cancer after smoking for 30 years, but it also applies to a political system that teaches racial superiority and rejects the principles of morality that God has given us.
And, no I don't have all the answers, no one does. God didn't intend for people to know everything.. there are some things for just God to know. But most of the answers are in the bible, you just have to search.

Diamond Eyes, why are you ignoring my posts that are addressed to you? We had a discussion going, and you started flat out ignoring my posts. What's going on here?

I know, it's just that other people got involved in the conversation and it's hard to keep up with all the questions, without it taking up all of my time. The thing is I don't know a lot about The Laws Of Science, and don't know how or understand how they could have always existed... I just know God has always existed because that's what the bible says, and that's my reference. I'll try to look more into it when I have time.

You don't have to understand the specifics of the laws of science to answer what I asked you. I don't even know what the specific laws are. I just know that if our universe and our time line began at some point, something not confined to time had to have been behind the creation of our universe. I don't see strong evidence that it was a thinking being, so I conclude that laws of science that are timeless/eternal were at the root. So, you rule that out and conclude it was God simply because The Bible says it?

Well, I was raised christian... but as I got into my pre-teen years I got interested in spirituality outside of religion. Eventually my exploration of spirituality led to my interest in philosophy, which in order to properly practice requires critical thinking... and as you should know, critical thinking and any sort of religion often don't mix. They're like a cat from Bronx and a cat from L.A.

Originally Posted by * Diamond Eyes *

Mario 92:

Many claimed contradictions in the Bible turn out to be translation difficulties and do not exist in the original manuscripts.The Bible was not written by Americans for an American audience. Every culture has its own traditions which affect the meanings of phrases and even individual words. Many claimed contradictions in the Bible turn out to be cases where American values and understandings are forced on Hebrew or Greek phrases.
One problem is that the original manuscripts were not in English; and translation then becomes an issue

And why is faith good? Our faith results in eternal life (salvation) given to us by God. "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life" (John 3:16). Unless our faith accomplishes eternal life, we do not have the right kind of faith. God never intended for Christians to come to their faith to escape problems in life. Nowhere are we promised we will not have problems, sickness, death, or will not suffer violence. What we are promised is that we will have a way of escape provided for us before we reach the breaking point , but that way of escape may be death. Because life here on earth is just a tiny part of the big picture, and only God can see the grand scheme of things. This is another reason why faith is good.
There are Some Things God Will Not Do. One thing God will not do is to violate the promises He has made. God has told us, "It is appointed unto man once I die, and after that to face judgment." God has promised us as humans that we will reap what we sow (Galatians 6:7). Sometimes we want to engage in destructive behaviors and then have God step in and stop the natural consequences of those behaviors. Not only does this apply to a situation like a smoker who gets lung cancer after smoking for 30 years, but it also applies to a political system that teaches racial superiority and rejects the principles of morality that God has given us.
And, no I don't have all the answers, no one does. God didn't intend for people to know everything.. there are some things for just God to know. But most of the answers are in the bible, you just have to search.

Assertions and more assertions, using only a very poor source as a reference. First off, if the bible as we know it today faced translation difficulties, how can we be sure if anything at all is what it originally was? How do we know people didn't just slip in the bit about the afterlife later? How do we even know if the original actually contained the words of God? Do you not see the ridiculousness of placing your faith in an ancient book and holding it to be true? Do we have one single iota of empirical evidence for an afterlife? It's a nice belief, sure, but to hold it to be absolute truth is ludicrous. I see no reason whatsoever why humans should be entitled to eternal salvation, and not one shred of evidence to show that we are.

This bit right here:

Unless our faith accomplishes eternal life, we do not have the right kind of faith.

I find troubling. If this is the case, how do you know that your faith is the "right one" that is going to achieve salvation?

Originally Posted by * Diamond Eyes *

I know, it's just that other people got involved in the conversation and it's hard to keep up with all the questions, without it taking up all of my time. The thing is I don't know a lot about The Laws Of Science, and don't know how or understand how they could have always existed... I just know God has always existed because that's what the bible says, and that's my reference. I'll try to look more into it when I have time.

See above. Why do you have such confidence in the bible? Where did that originate?

Originally Posted by Mario92

Thank you for proving your ignorance.

It's easy to accuse someone of ignorance. I hardly see that as being better than being ignorant. If you're going to make such an accusation, at least explain why. A post like this leads me to think that either you don't have an explanation and therefore you're just making baseless insults, or that you don't want to give an explanation and therefore you're just making a drive-by insult and don't actually want to participate in discussion. If ignorance bothers you, try being constructive and educate people when they say things which reveal their ignorance.

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

When Michelangelo painted God on the Sistene Chapel ceiling as an old man with buff muscles and a flowing white beard, it was meant as an allegory, like those ancient portrayals of Greek and Roman river deities and wind deities as similar men w/beards, or of Liberty as a woman with one boob hanging out.

I have a hard time believing that these ancient people had a deeper, purer or more abstract conception of their gods and didn't literally believe there was a bearded man throwing down lightning bolts.

Originally Posted by juroara

That single painting forever changed the way people view God! Before the renaissance, in the dark ages, they actually got one thing right. You were not allowed to paint God in anyway shape or form, because such a painting would be a false idol (or a false representation of God).

I like this idea that any representation of god is inherently going to be false. It implies that everyone has it wrong and no one actually knows what god is or even looks like (or for that matter, if he it has an appearance). And considering a person's understanding of god is an abstraction (ie. a mental representation) of the actual* thing, well...

Originally Posted by * Diamond Eyes *

He did things before time began

How exactly is something "done" outside of time?

Originally Posted by * Diamond Eyes *

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise

As a theif in the night; with great noise.

Originally Posted by * Diamond Eyes *

Well, just like you can program your phone to beep for specific reasons, DNA instructs the cell. DNA is a three-billion-lettered program telling the cell to act in a certain way. It is a full instruction manual.Why is this so amazing? ....how did this information program wind up in each human cell?

Careful! If you start searching for honest answers to those questions you might become a scientist.

Originally Posted by * Diamond Eyes *

How do the laws of science explain things like the complexity of human DNA..

Do you have the slightest appreciation for how big the universe is? You keep saying "but it's all so improbable! Take the example of life on Earth. It is highly improbable that life will form at any place in the universe. That may be why the vast majority of it has none at all (so far as we can see, at least.)

Originally Posted by * Diamond Eyes *

If God gave us the Bible which tells us about what He did, there cannot possibly be a contradiction. If there is a contradiction, it is either because we have misunderstood the Bible or we have misunderstood scientific evidence.

Wow. It must be easy to defend your points when there is absolutely no way they could be wrong.

Originally Posted by * Diamond Eyes *

The Bible was not written by Americans for an American audience.

Shouldn't the Bible be for everyone? Why is it so easily corrupted by translations, interpretations and cultural relevance? Why does the Bible seem so unconcerned with much of anything past the time its respective books were written? Why are such specific laws and rules set forth for ancient people as it applies to ancient life, yet so much is totally inapplicable to modern times? The simplest answer is that it was written by ancient people for ancient people and is about ancient people. They did not and could not have known how technology, culture, language and the world in general would change. The arguments you could make to support these texts could be applied to any set of myths, really.





*actual actuality not guarenteed.

Originally Posted by * Diamond Eyes *

Dark Matters:
It does say in the bible that you're supposed to love yourself.
"The foremost is, 'Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God is one Lord; and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.' "The second is this, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these." (NAS, Mark 12:28-31)

The basic point of original sin is this:

Everyone is born a sinner. Destined for an eternity of suffering in hell. That's what will happen to EVERYONE... unless you accept these terms....

So, as children, we're brought into the world already stained... besmirched with mortal sin before we even take our first breath. And we CANNOT save ourselves from it. Only accepting Jesus as our savior can save us.

See... it's THE BIBLE tat tells us we're born in sin! So, if you don't accept the precepts of the bible, then you're born pure and free... no need to redeem your coupon to be saved.

This tells me that the CHURCH is using some of Jesus' teachings, and ADDING ON dogma of its own - in order to control the masses. That's what the church is about. They frighten people into believing THEIR dogmas.

It's like those vacuum cleaner salesmen who knock on your door and as soon as you let them in they dump dirt on your carpet, then you have to let them do a demonstration of their product in order to get it clean. Before he got there the carpet was CLEAN!

Does the vacuum cleaner salesman do what he does because he loves you?

To me a religious system that tells you you're BORN IN SIN AND MUST BE CLEANSED is not interested in people loving themselves... it needs them to believe they're unclean and not complete so that they feel they NEED that religion in order to become cleansed and pure.

Believing you're born a sinner is NOT loving yourself.

Originally Posted by * Diamond Eyes *

And God didn't instill sin, satan did.

Wait for it...

Wait for it...





Who made Satan?

And who, while supposedly OMNIPOTENT and OMNISCIENT, allows Satan to be his bad-boy self and run his little torture garden? Hmmmmmn?

Originally Posted by Darkmatters
When Michelangelo painted God on the Sistene Chapel ceiling as an old man with buff muscles and a flowing white beard, it was meant as an allegory, like those ancient portrayals of Greek and Roman river deities and wind deities as similar men w/beards, or of Liberty as a woman with one boob hanging out.

I have a hard time believing that these ancient people had a deeper, purer or more abstract conception of their gods and didn't literally believe there was a bearded man throwing down lightning bolts.

That might be true for Zeus and the other major pagan deities, but I was referring to the Four Winds and the Rivers, as depicted on maps of the ancient world.

But originally the Hebrews did NOT allow any depiction of god. They referred to religious icons as Graven Images, and there was a heavy penalty for anyone using them. I think the idea was that any painting or statue rendering god as human or anything else would only lower the idea of god, because no image could ever do Him justice. In fact, if I remember right, I think true believers in Yahweh were supposed to go around knocking over any icons belonging to other religions.

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

Who made Satan?

And who, while supposedly OMNIPOTENT and OMNISCIENT, allows Satan to be his bad-boy self and run his little torture garden? Hmmmmmn?

Originally Posted by Mark75

It's easy to accuse someone of ignorance. I hardly see that as being better than being ignorant. If you're going to make such an accusation, at least explain why. A post like this leads me to think that either you don't have an explanation and therefore you're just making baseless insults, or that you don't want to give an explanation and therefore you're just making a drive-by insult and don't actually want to participate in discussion. If ignorance bothers you, try being constructive and educate people when they say things which reveal their ignorance.[/SIZE]

It was a jab, I will admit, but I couldn't have stated things any better than UM did:

Diamond Eyes, the truth is that lots of atheists would love to believe in God. Personally, I would love to believe in a very good God, but the Judeo-Christian-Muslim God is not good. He is a genocidal egomaniac who condones eternal torture. I know atheists who want to believe in God so much that they would rather believe in that one than be atheists. We are atheists because the idea of God does not seem logical to us. That is a fact. Can you back up your extremely broad claim that all atheists want to be atheists just so we can be accountable to nobody? I have seen that mere assertion before, and it is never backed up. It is just what the Christian establishment preaches. Nothing more.

The reason people don't come across Hamlet and think monkeys typed it is that, based on all of our experiences, only humans write plays. Plus, we already learned that Shakespeare wrote it. Universes, on the other hand, are not something we know first hand are created by thinking beings. We have not seen proof of it.

If you think that the existence of something complex has to have been created deliberately by a thinking being, then to be consistent, you have to have the same view of God. God is supposed to be even more complex than the universe. Who created him? If you say nobody did, then you go against your own claim about creations of complex things. So, is the existence of something complex automatic proof of a conscious creator, or is it not?

Not my brightest moment, but when someone is that flat-out wrong, it's kinda tricky to not be a bit smug. Since that post, I have actively engaged in debate in a more...respectful fashion. My sincerest apologies.

Diamond Eyes, my challenge still stands:

Show me one reason, one event in the entire history of the world, where under reasonable experimental conditions, anyone has ever shown any reason to believe in a higher power.

Who made Satan?

And who, while supposedly OMNIPOTENT and OMNISCIENT, allows Satan to be his bad-boy self and run his little torture garden? Hmmmmmn? [/QUOTE]
Satan was one of Gods angels. His angel name was Lucifer. Satan was given to him after he had fallen. Satan means (adversary, enemy, accuser).He rebelled because he wanted more power than God, and tried to dethrone God. That is why he Got kicked out of heaven, and one third of the angels fell with him, which are now demons. Satan and his demons are still active today, trying everything they can to get people to follow them instead of God and the angles. God has given everyone free will, which is where the choice comes in. It is everyone's own choice to follow him.

Mark 75,
by done outside of time, I meant that God is time.. hes not confined to time. Hes in a dimension that we as humans aren't capable of understanding. We perceive time here on earth because were in the 3rd dimension. God is outside of that.
And the bible, yes it was written by about 40 men, and over a period of about 1600 years, but it was all inspired by God. From different accounts of his life and his teachings. Before Jesus died, there was a different system that God had in place, which was a set of laws for people to obey. God showed himself in different ways, because he hadn't yet sent his son to forgive our sins. God actually spoke to people and did miracles and signs because that's what that generation needed. But then God sent his son Jesus, to die for everyone's sins. So that now in the New Testament, all you have to do is confess your sins and repent and you will be saved..all the laws from the old testament aren't relevant anymore.
The bible had to be translated because it was written in Hebrew, so everyone could read it. What I meant is that there could be a few small translation issues, but the main points are still there. Everything you need to know is still there. Its a guide line of how you're supposed to live.


Mario 92

As I said above, large miracles arent needed anymore, because now we have the bible to tell us everything about God that we need to know. God did miracles in the Old Testament because the people didnt have a bible or Jesus yet. But God still reveals himself. Most people try to dismiss it as something else. Some examples are..
Nature, God has revealed certain truths about Himself through nature or the created order. Psalm 19:1-6 states, “The heavens are telling of the glory of God; and their expanse is declaring the work of His hands.” Nature tells everyone about God’s glory and that everything is made by Him. Romans 1:18-21 declares, “For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.” According to this text, nature reveals that God exists and that He is powerful.
Providence, God reveals Himself through His moment-by-moment control of the world.
Conscience, God has revealed Himself to everyone through an internal sense of right and wrong. Romans 2:14-15 states that every person has the Law of God “written in their hearts.” This internal compass that alerts us to what is right and wrong points to the Ultimate Lawgiver who determines right and wrong.
Dreams, Dreams were often used by God to communicate information (Gen. 20:3; 31:11-13, 24; 40-41). God sent Jacob the dream of the ascending and descending angels on the latter (Gen. 28:10-15). God also gave King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon important dreams about the coming empires of human history. Daniel interpreted the dreams.
Also, once someone become a christian, they will recieve the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit was given to live inside those who believe in Jesus, in order to produce God's character in the life of a believer. In a way that we cannot do on our own, the Holy Spirit will build into our lives love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.
The Holy Spirit also performs a function for non-Christians as well. He convicts people's hearts of God's truth ; how righteous Jesus is -- He died in our place, for our sins; and God's eventual judgment of the world and those who do not know Him. The Holy Spirit tugs on our hearts and minds, asking us to repent and turn to God for forgiveness and a new life.

Originally Posted by * Diamond Eyes *

by done outside of time, I meant that God is time.. hes not confined to time. Hes in a dimension that we as humans aren't capable of understanding.

If humans are incapable of understanding it, how is it that that you know that he exists in another dimension? Can thoughts and intentions exist outside of time? Does god have thoughts or intentions? Can you explain why it is more likely that an incomprehensible god exists as opposed to simply it being a nonsensical idea?

Originally Posted by * Diamond Eyes *

And the bible, yes it was written by about 40 men, and over a period of about 1600 years, but it was all inspired by God.

How can you tell that it was inspired by god?

Originally Posted by * Diamond Eyes *

Satan was one of Gods angels. His angel name was Lucifer. Satan was given to him after he had fallen. Satan means (adversary, enemy, accuser).He rebelled because he wanted more power than God, and tried to dethrone God. That is why he Got kicked out of heaven, and one third of the angels fell with him, which are now demons. Satan and his demons are still active today, trying everything they can to get people to follow them instead of God and the angles. God has given everyone free will, which is where the choice comes in. It is everyone's own choice to follow him.

Why doesn't god just smite his ass and have done with it? "Hey, folks, sorry to barge in, but I just smited Satan. Welcome to paradise. Can you guys maybe sort of love me now? I know I was kind of a grumpy bastard all those years ago, and many have died at my hands, but Satan is dead. Hugs?"

And the bible, yes it was written by about 40 men, and over a period of about 1600 years, but it was all inspired by God. From different accounts of his life and his teachings. Before Jesus died, there was a different system that God had in place, which was a set of laws for people to obey. God showed himself in different ways, because he hadn't yet sent his son to forgive our sins. God actually spoke to people and did miracles and signs because that's what that generation needed. But then God sent his son Jesus, to die for everyone's sins. So that now in the New Testament, all you have to do is confess your sins and repent and you will be saved..all the laws from the old testament aren't relevant anymore.

Am I the only one who finds it really sort of scary that he's treating the bible as absolute fact? I can't think of shakier grounds to base an entire belief system on. There is no solid evidence that the bible is factual, accurate, or literal. None at all.

The hypocrisy is extremely disturbing. Basically, the bible says you can be a total prick your entire life, but as long as you confess your sins on your death bed and accept Jesus, you go to paradise. You can kill and steal and do horrible, unspeakable acts, but if you just exploit the magic loophole, you get into heaven. Riiiiiiiight.

The bible had to be translated because it was written in Hebrew, so everyone could read it. What I meant is that there could be a few small translation issues, but the main points are still there. Everything you need to know is still there. Its a guide line of how you're supposed to live.

How can you be sure? When the bible was translated into English, some many thousands of words were added to the English language, as words did not exist for many of the things in the original bible. It was one of the largest mass addings to the English language in history. How do we even know if the meanings match?

As I said above, large miracles arent needed anymore, because now we have the bible to tell us everything about God that we need to know. God did miracles in the Old Testament because the people didnt have a bible or Jesus yet. But God still reveals himself. Most people try to dismiss it as something else. Some examples are..

Oh, the bible explains all? Then why are there so many misunderstandings/contradictions/multiple interpretations? I think a couple of well-placed miracles would clear some stuff up, personally. You know, part the ocean, stop a tsunami, etc. With over 16% of the population being nonreligious, and almost no two people having the exact same interpretation of the bible, I think a miracle is in order.

Nature, God has revealed certain truths about Himself through nature or the created order. Psalm 19:1-6 states, “The heavens are telling of the glory of God; and their expanse is declaring the work of His hands.” Nature tells everyone about God’s glory and that everything is made by Him. Romans 1:18-21 declares, “For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.” According to this text, nature reveals that God exists and that He is powerful.

That is delightfully vague, and surprise, uses the bible as the only source of evidence. Must I really repeat that the bible is an absolutely terrible source of evidence? Consider:

Our modern technology has proved the Bible wrong. That means that if there is a God, he didn't write the Bible and the Bible is not his word. If the Bible were the word of God and the Bible is wrong, then God is wrong. And if God can't be wrong, then the Bible, which is wrong, can't be the word of God.

If we were to believe the Bible, then we would have to believe the Earth was created before the stars, which is the wrong order. If the stars were created 10,000 years ago, we wouldn't be able to see stars that are more than 10,000 light years away. That's because if a star was further away than 10,000 light years, the light from that star wouldn't have got here yet. Our galaxy alone is about 100,000 light years across. If the Bible were true, we wouldn't be able to see but 1/10th the way across our own galaxy. We surely wouldn't be able to see other galaxies or galactic clusters or know that the universe is expanding.

I find it interesting how so many selectively quote the bible and reinterpret it in whatever way necessary to fit the times. "Alright, so creation is out, but all that other crap can stay. Except the old testament. Let's get rid of that, too."

If you're going to take the supposed word of god as fact, shouldn't it really be an all-or-nothing deal? And if the bible was merely inspired by god, but written by men who were dead-wrong about observable reality, then how can you expect that they were right about anything else, especially the things we cannot observe (the afterlife, rules to get into heaven, etc)?

Providence, God reveals Himself through His moment-by-moment control of the world.

Really? Because, you know, I'm not seeing any of this control. Can you show me how exactly he controls every moment and every aspect of the world? You know, as opposed to atoms traveling on predictable courses, reacting with other atoms, and adjusting their courses accordingly?

Conscience, God has revealed Himself to everyone through an internal sense of right and wrong. Romans 2:14-15 states that every person has the Law of God “written in their hearts.” This internal compass that alerts us to what is right and wrong points to the Ultimate Lawgiver who determines right and wrong.

Internal compass? Interesting, considering morality is relative. Look at the planet. No two cultures are exactly alike, no two share the same sense of "right" and "wrong." We are products of the societies in which we grew up. If you are taught that murdering is a-okay, you aren't going to wake up one day and suddenly realize that, hey, murdering is wrong.

Dreams, Dreams were often used by God to communicate information (Gen. 20:3; 31:11-13, 24; 40-41). God sent Jacob the dream of the ascending and descending angels on the latter (Gen. 28:10-15). God also gave King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon important dreams about the coming empires of human history. Daniel interpreted the dreams.

Care to cite some nice, credible evidence outside the bible? Something that clearly goes beyond coincidence/the capabilities of the human mind? There is still much we don't know about the brain. Why is God necessary to send us information in our dreams? If he really wanted to send a message, you think he'd pick something more credible than mental images that are easily forgotten or brushed aside.

Also, once someone become a christian, they will recieve the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit was given to live inside those who believe in Jesus, in order to produce God's character in the life of a believer. In a way that we cannot do on our own, the Holy Spirit will build into our lives love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.

More assertions. If you interview Christians-turned-atheist and visa versa, I think you'll find that both sets of people live pretty darn satisfactory lives. And self-control? There is a much higher proportion of Christians in prison than there are atheists. Doesn't seem like those people had very good self control at all...nor patience, peace, joy, or anything else that may have kept them from committing a crime worthy of punishment at a state or federal level.

Would you care to cite a source that shows, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that Christians live happier lives than the rest of the world, and that this is due to the holy spirit in particular?

The Holy Spirit also performs a function for non-Christians as well. He convicts people's hearts of God's truth ; how righteous Jesus is -- He died in our place, for our sins; and God's eventual judgment of the world and those who do not know Him. The Holy Spirit tugs on our hearts and minds, asking us to repent and turn to God for forgiveness and a new life.

Not once have I ever had this feeling. Care to cite a source or two detailing this phenomenon?

Fine. I'll admit it. I'm Jesus. My father isn't cooking up some big plan. He just got bored of playing with Earth and went to go fuck about with some other planet.

First off, no its not only confessing your sins and you're home free.. its believing that Jesus is the son of God and that he died on the cross for our sins..and repenting and turning away from sin. You cant just say forgive me then keep on sinning.. you have to genuinely want to change.

And if the bible is a bunch of BS, then where did it come from? Why are there 66 manuscripts just laying around talking about this supposed God and Jesus who really never existed? Because the Bible details historical events, its truthfulness and accuracy are subject to verification like any other historical document. Through both archaeological evidences and other writings, the historical accounts of the Bible have been proven time and time again to be accurate and true. In fact, all the archaeological and manuscript evidence supporting the Bible makes it the best-documented book from the ancient world.

Talking about miracles, say that the ocean did part today..don't you think humans would find some way to discredit it as a miracle and say something like, oh, it was caused by a tsunami, or an earthquake, or a tidal wave, or ..some unknown natural occurrence. If a tsunami was stopped..oh it was luck that the storm died down before it crashed into the land. If someone had cancer then mysteriously it was gone...well it was luck, or some occurrence in the human body that we don't yet know about...If there was some crazy sign in the sky..well, its a government conspiracy, or aliens...If someone heard God talk to them or saw God as a vision, then it would just be a hallucination, or drugs, or some sort of mental disorder. The rainbow is a sign from God, but.. its just the suns rays refracting light through millions of raindrops and a coloured arc appears in the horizon..and I'm not saying that's not true..I'm saying just because science explains it, doesn't mean it didn't come from God.. Science is a tool to explain the world and universe that God created. That doesn't mean that God didn't put it all into place.. and rain, is a form of precipitation in which water falls back to the earth as a liquid...Yes, science can explain it, that doesn't mean that God didn't put the earth and the clouds there for the rain to fall out of..anyways, you get my point.

So exactly what kind of sign or miracle would it take for an atheist to believe that God exists? And what if the shroud of Turin was proved to be the cloth that Jesus was wrapped in? well that doesnt prove that he was the Son of God right? It was just some guy that got hung on the cross..

And if the earth and universe were just created by chance..wouldn't that mean that everything is pretty much pointless? We came into existence by pure luck..there's really no reason for us being here..nothing you do on earth really makes any sort of difference or impact in the long run. You just die and then there's nothing after. The baby that your wife borned isn't a miracle, its just some sort of evolution, but there's no real reason for the baby to be here on the earth..it just kinda happened... There is no higher power that gives us a sense of right and wrong..so wouldn't that mean that anything goes? wouldn't the earth be pure chaos if there was no right and wrong? People could do anything, and get away with it.

Originally Posted by * Diamond Eyes *

And if the earth and universe were just created by chance..wouldn't that mean that everything is pretty much pointless? We came into existence by pure luck..there's really no reason for us being here..nothing you do on earth really makes any sort of difference or impact in the long run. You just die and then there's nothing after. The baby that your wife borned isn't a miracle, its just some sort of evolution, but there's no real reason for the baby to be here on the earth..it just kinda happened... There is no higher power that gives us a sense of right and wrong..so wouldn't that mean that anything goes? wouldn't the earth be pure chaos if there was no right and wrong? People could do anything, and get away with it.

Yes and no...

First off, if we are "just an accident" (which we are) that would mean that existence and everything is just "mysterious", and only pointless if your brain percieves it so.

Yes, things just happen. Why would it be any other way? I mean is there a way to break your existence and peek around it, to even be able to comprehend and define it? As far as we know, thoughts, emotions, concepts, values, ideas of "higher power" are all signals transmitted in your brain, some of which, in the case of self awareness, percieve their own existence.

A sense of right or wrong? Just another though process that evolved because it could. But these thoughts have nothing to do with reality in the sense of "a higher power made them". Things that can think and feel emotions, will have a sense of right and wrong, things that can't (like a coconut that occasionaly "decides" to end a life) don't. So yeah, that means - anything goes. If you decide to kill people, that's your decision. It just might not fit right with many, who will deem it immoral, and then there would be consequences.

"wouldn't the earth be pure chaos if there was no right and wrong? People could do anything, and get away with it."

I don't know where you live, but Earth is in chaos the last time I checked. And it's in chaos even when there is right and wrong at least in certain places and in certain forms. People do anything and they do get away with it. If you're refering to some type of injustice by that last part of the sentence, then as I said: We humans are the ones who percieve and dish out justice. So "getting away with it" just depends on the circumstances, whether somebody will be there to serve justice or not.

Originally Posted by * Diamond Eyes *

And if the bible is a bunch of BS, then where did it come from? Why are there 66 manuscripts just laying around talking about this supposed God and Jesus who really never existed?

Gee, good point. A tornado probably blew through and it just formed itself. A lot of your Bible stories are just rebranded pagan ones. The reason that there are "so many" is because a bunch of them are just stolen, or are simply common themes. Regardless, the amount of books you write about something has nothing to do with how true it is. This is just an appeal to popularity.

Originally Posted by * Diamond Eyes *

Because the Bible details historical events, its truthfulness and accuracy are subject to verification like any other historical document. Through both archaeological evidences and other writings, the historical accounts of the Bible have been proven time and time again to be accurate and true. In fact, all the archaeological and manuscript evidence supporting the Bible makes it the best-documented book from the ancient world.

Which archeological evidence supports your idea of god, exactly? I don't think anyone doubts that some of the things written in the Bible are accounts of factual events. Certainly there is some history mixed in with the mythology, however this serves only to dilute the history, not give credibility to the mythology.

Originally Posted by * Diamond Eyes *

The rainbow is a sign from God, but.. its just the suns rays refracting light through millions of raindrops and a coloured arc appears in the horizon..

Dang skeptics.

Originally Posted by * Diamond Eyes *

and I'm not saying that's not true..I'm saying just because science explains it, doesn't mean it didn't come from God.. Science is a tool to explain the world and universe that God created. That doesn't mean that God didn't put it all into place.. and rain, is a form of precipitation in which water falls back to the earth as a liquid...Yes, science can explain it, that doesn't mean that God didn't put the earth and the clouds there for the rain to fall out of..anyways, you get my point.

I get your point, but where exactly do you see room for god here? If you understand how rain works and why rainbows happen, why do you insist that god "put it all in place"? How do you know he put it in place?

Originally Posted by * Diamond Eyes *

And if the earth and universe were just created by chance..wouldn't that mean that everything is pretty much pointless? We came into existence by pure luck..there's really no reason for us being here..nothing you do on earth really makes any sort of difference or impact in the long run. You just die and then there's nothing after. The baby that your wife borned isn't a miracle, its just some sort of evolution, but there's no real reason for the baby to be here on the earth..it just kinda happened... There is no higher power that gives us a sense of right and wrong..so wouldn't that mean that anything goes? wouldn't the earth be pure chaos if there was no right and wrong? People could do anything, and get away with it.

Allow me to respond to your rhetorical questions with some of my own. Suppose the Earth and universe were created by chance and that everything is "pretty much pointless" and you knew there was no god. How would you behave? Would you suddenly become a vicious, violent savage and steal and kill without a second thought? Would the idea of an absence of god suddenly turn you into a sociopath? Would you just stop caring about your friends, family and yourself?

Think about it. This is a common argument religious people like to give, but it's really pretty silly. First of all, I would suggest that most of your morals and values have a social and personal basis. There is no divinity required to understand the benefits of cooperation. Why do you stop at a red light? Is it because you will be punished if you don't? Or is it also because you know that if you don't stop it will be dangerous for you and others? And to take it further, that if we all ran red lights we would collectively destroy a method of cooperation that serves to keep us all safe. In the abscence of god, friendship doesn't evaporate. Why do you not kill your friends? Is it only because you will be punished? Or is it also because you like them and you don't want them to die?

What worries me about this type of argument isn't what it says about me, it's what it says about the people who make it. The implications seem to be that you only really care about "right" or "wrong" because you know there is someone looking over your shoulder judging you based on your choices. To suggest that the threats or promises from a god or religion is the reason we should cooperate is shallow, selfish, dishonest and misses the point entirely. It is especially so when you're completely unable to meaningfully show that your god even exists. It really does make you seem, well, like a sociopath.

But to tell you the truth, I really don't believe that you think like that. I like to think that most people, including most religious people, don't. I think your beliefs about god are largely tacked-on to your existing beliefs about the universe, morality and people and that the beliefs themselves don't deviate much from mine or from people in general. Rather your god is sort of a garnish to make the dish more appealing. Refering back your example again, you hold the [secular] belief that rainbows are caused by the refraction of sunlight, but also you add on top of that (superfluously and without explanation) that god is the source of rainbows. Likewise with my assumption that you would not kill your friends because you like them and don't want them to die. Again (and excuse me if I'm being too presumptuous) any notions of religious morality are superfluous in the same way. Religion is unnecessary.

But all of this is entirely beside the point. The point is that there is no god. To argue that people "need" to believe in god is not to argue that god exists.


If you don't want to read or respond to this long post, that's okay, but I would still like a reply to these questions:

Originally Posted by Mark75

If humans are incapable of understanding it, how is it that that you know that he exists in another dimension? Can thoughts and intentions exist outside of time? Does god have thoughts or intentions? Can you explain why it is more likely that an incomprehensible god exists as opposed to simply it being a nonsensical idea?

How can you tell that it was inspired by god?

Originally Posted by * Diamond Eyes *

And if the bible is a bunch of BS, then where did it come from?

I am pretty sure there was evidence the bible was not written by anyone who had witnessed the events first hand. Its like there being a fire downtown, and you having to report on it even though you weren't there.

Originally Posted by Mark75
If humans are incapable of understanding it, how is it that that you know that he exists in another dimension? Can thoughts and intentions exist outside of time? Does god have thoughts or intentions? Can you explain why it is more likely that an incomprehensible god exists as opposed to simply it being a nonsensical idea?

How can you tell that it was inspired by god?

Lol, well if God is Omniscient and Omnipotent wouldn't it only make sense that he would be outside of our understanding here on earth? Isn't that what the characteristics of God would be? If God was a human here on earth, then he wouldn't be God. Like I said, time is something that is perceived by humans..If God isn't confined to time, wouldn't that mean that hes in a different dimension? I don't know if thoughts and intentions exist outside of time... I would think that God has thoughts and intentions.. If he did then yea I guess they do exist outside of time. I don't know %100 that God exists..but I believe that he does. Do you know %100 that he doesn't exist? Maybe there isn't solid evidence that he exists, but there isn't solid evidence that he doesn't exist either.

There isn't solid evidence that he exists. But there isn't solid evidence he doesn't exist. Quite right.
I need a lot of evidence of his existence to dedicate my life and my beliefs to him. But I don't need a lot of evidence that supports the theory he doesn't exist, for me not to believe in him, especially since logically its more likely he doesn't exist.
Everyone is always saying God has a plan that we don't know of yet and blah blah. Just sounds like excuses to make up for the fact he doesn't do anything because he doesn't exist.

I'm not sure you know what your god even is. Can you describe it? What is it like and why does it do the things it does?

God doesn't exist, because there is no purpose or need for him in this universe. If he does exist, he is useless.
Heaven is just a story to make us feel a little better about death. Hell is just a way to scare people into not doing bad things on Earth.