Hello there. :)
I am interested in knowing when some of you who are Atheist became/ realized you were atheist and or how? (Sorry if I worded the question in a weird way.) Lately, I've been doubting my belief in God. I grew up all my life believing in him and I've never really given a second thought to his existence. So I just wanted to see if anybody went through a similar experience before they became Atheist and stuff like that.
01-23-2010, 12:46 AM
RSFAD
You're question is not weird. There's no such thing as a bad question.
The day that I became an Atheist was when I realized God was a tyrant. I used to swing back forth believing and not believing. I asked a lot people mainly religious friends, family, and a minister. I asked them, "Do Atheists go to heaven?" The unanimous answer was "no". Big surprise there. Thne I asked them, "What if an Atheist lives an honest life? He or she doesn't steal, kill, lie, use people,and just lives a good and honest life?" The response: it's impossible to get into heaven without believing in God. Atheists will go to Hell.
I started thinking to myself: What kind of God would do that? I mean, an honest person deserves to get into heaven. Then an epiphany came to me: God is a tyrant. A true God would not be jealous. A true God would not allow genocide to occur on His planet. A true God would allow a decent person into heaven. Regardless whether or not that person believed in Him.
That's a quick summary of my beliefs
01-23-2010, 01:37 AM
SpecialInterests
I don't think I ever really believed in God. I mean, my mom would always basically force my sister, my brother, and I into going to church every Sunday, but I can't ever recall genuinely believing or praying.
Sundays were the worst. I would have rather went to school, and I hated school when I was that young.
I was never interested in the idea of a god. Never really thought about it never really cared. If someone had of asked me if I believed I would have told them no. It wasn't until I was about 18 when science began to strike my interest. Once I learned about evolution it was basically gameover for any lingering doubts I had that maybe god did exist. Here was an explanation of how we got here, billions of years in the making, I had no reason to look elsewhere.
A true God would not be jealous. A true God would not allow genocide to occur on His planet. A true God would allow a decent person into heaven. Regardless whether or not that person believed in Him.
That realization is what changed me from agnostic to atheist. How I went from Christian to agnostic is another story.
01-23-2010, 04:08 AM
Taosaur
Quote:
Originally Posted by sora12
Hello there. :)
I am interested in knowing when some of you who are Atheist became/ realized you were atheist and or how? (Sorry if I worded the question in a weird way.) Lately, I've been doubting my belief in God. I grew up all my life believing in him and I've never really given a second thought to his existence. So I just wanted to see if anybody went through a similar experience before they became Atheist and stuff like that.
I had a vision :D
I haven't thought about it in a long time, but up until I was about 19 or 20, I did have a personal deity with which I communed, which I petitioned for aid, and whom I to some extent tried to serve. I didn't take it for the Lord of the Universe or Creator of Life, and I responded more or less as an atheist when confronted with monotheists, but I did have a relationship with an entity in a broader causal domain, and it was a very real part of my life.
That relationship soured because of an occasion on which I opened myself to this being and, as a sort of side effect, had a vision of my future including my death. It was a future in which I was increasingly isolated and would have no power (that is, this being would not intercede) to save loved ones from profound suffering, and in which my death (in the midst of great social upheaval two or three years from now) was by no means guaranteed to serve the greater good.
Suffice it to say my response was not, "Thy will be done."
A few years down the road I made peace with my deity through Guru Yoga and let it more or less melt into the Tao, which is much more relevant to my experience of the world now.
I know it's not exactly analogous to your situation, but perhaps my story will illustrate that there are more ways out of your dilemma than simply answering True or False.
01-23-2010, 04:09 AM
Noogah
God is not a tyrant. He has rules, he asks you to follow them. If that makes you a tyrant, then guess what? Every boss/teacher/principal/country rules in tyranny. And, you don't even HAVE to follow all of them if you want to go to heaven. All you have to do is receive Christ as your savior.
And heaven isn't even the point of being a Christian!!
Oh, and I love this point:
I think God is mean, thus, I decided to stop believing in him.
Does no one have a backbone these days? What kind of childish logic is that? :shakehead:
01-23-2010, 04:13 AM
Taosaur
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noogah
God is not a tyrant. He has rules, he asks you to follow them. If that makes you a tyrant, then guess what? Every boss/teacher/principal/country rules in tyranny. And, you don't even HAVE to follow all of them if you want to go to heaven. All you have to do is receive Christ as your savior.
And heaven isn't even the point of being a Christian!!
Oh, and I love this point:
I think God is mean, thus, I decided to stop believing in him.
Does no one have a backbone these days? What kind of childish logic is that? :shakehead:
Noogah, this is not a debate thread and those who have posted so far are only providing the OP with the information she asked for. Please take it to another thread.
01-23-2010, 04:14 AM
guitarboy
Some people here make me sad to be theistic in certain ideologies(what)
God may no longer exist. Maybe the second coming is the return, but he isn't here now.
Goodbye.
(can't answer OP, not atheist)
but doubting your faith is good, helps you realize you aren't a mindless zombie.
01-23-2010, 04:19 AM
Noogah
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taosaur
Noogah, this is not a debate thread and those who have posted so far are only providing the OP with the information she asked for. Please take it to another thread.
What do you mean it isn't a debate thread??? Such a thing does not exist in the r/s.
Anyways, I was not debating. I simply trying to clear something up.
01-23-2010, 04:31 AM
Universal Mind
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noogah
God is not a tyrant. He has rules, he asks you to follow them. If that makes you a tyrant, then guess what? Every boss/teacher/principal/country rules in tyranny. And, you don't even HAVE to follow all of them if you want to go to heaven. All you have to do is receive Christ as your savior.
Or else!!!!!!! :evil:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noogah
I think God is mean, thus, I decided to stop believing in him.
Does no one have a backbone these days? What kind of childish logic is that? :shakehead:
No, that's not it. It's, "Wait a second... God is more evil than Hitler and has severe emotional problems. That's the ultimate being in the universe? He's supposedly good and loving? What a crock!" The idea of something with infinite intelligence acting like a stupid redneck with a dominance obsession and lunatic rules is pretty absurd. It's not something I find believable.
01-23-2010, 06:25 AM
hypnocella
Quote:
Originally Posted by sora12
Hello there. :)
I am interested in knowing when some of you who are Atheist became/ realized you were atheist and or how? (Sorry if I worded the question in a weird way.) Lately, I've been doubting my belief in God. I grew up all my life believing in him and I've never really given a second thought to his existence. So I just wanted to see if anybody went through a similar experience before they became Atheist and stuff like that.
I researched my faith as I got older and am still drawn to it, something about God loving mankind enough to send us Jesus. There's nothing wrong with asking questions or wanting to understand things, but don't let anyone tell you it's childish or uneducated or uncool to believe in God.
01-23-2010, 06:28 AM
apocalypse
When I evolved beyond something as mundane as some ancient belief system that subjugates, enslaves & lies to its people.
01-23-2010, 06:30 AM
Hidden
Quote:
Originally Posted by RSFAD
I used to swing back forth believing and not believing. ... "What if an Atheist lives an honest life? He or she doesn't steal, kill, lie, use people,and just lives a good and honest life?" The response: it's impossible to get into heaven without believing in God. Atheists will go to Hell.
I started thinking to myself: What kind of God would do that? I mean, an honest person deserves to get into heaven. ... A true God would allow a decent person into heaven. Regardless whether or not that person believed in Him.
Cut out a few things, and you pretty much have what I think, but stated much more eloquently than I could have come up with on my own. I simply don't see how believing in someone makes you worthy of going to Heaven, while even if you're an honest non-believer, you're still going to Hell.
I used to believe in God simply because I never thought to question it. I never went to church or prayed or anything, it was just sort of aknowledged that he existed. I didn't think about religion much until I started becoming more aware of politics and people started using it to argue against what I believed. It always seemed unnecessarily cruel to me that a god would make people gay and then say that it's unnatural and immoral...
I'm guess I'm more agnostic than atheist. For all I know, there could be a god out there, and I think it's a bit arrogant of people to claim to know which is the right one. Considering all the different religions out there, statistically speaking you're very unlikely to pick the right one.
There are probably a couple of other reasons I'm forgetting. My decision was based on a lot of different things, not just one reason.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noogah
God is not a tyrant. He has rules, he asks you to follow them. If that makes you a tyrant, then guess what? Every boss/teacher/principal/country rules in tyranny. And, you don't even HAVE to follow all of them if you want to go to heaven. All you have to do is receive Christ as your savior.
And heaven isn't even the point of being a Christian!!
o.0 Hold on, back up a moment... did you just say that to go to Heaven, ALL you have to do is believe in Christ? That even if you're a horrible person but you're a believer then you're going to Heaven, whereas a righteous non-believer would still go to Hell? I thought being a good person had something to do with getting into Heaven, but, if I'm reading what you just said correctly, apparently it doesn't...
01-23-2010, 07:52 AM
Carôusoul
Quote:
Originally Posted by sora12
Hello there. :)
I am interested in knowing when some of you who are Atheist became/ realized you were atheist and or how? (Sorry if I worded the question in a weird way.) Lately, I've been doubting my belief in God. I grew up all my life believing in him and I've never really given a second thought to his existence. So I just wanted to see if anybody went through a similar experience before they became Atheist and stuff like that.
Slow process. Just think more and more, and it really doesn't become neccessary.
01-23-2010, 07:57 AM
Noogah
Quote:
Originally Posted by Universal Mind
Or else!!!!!!! :evil:...
It's not something I find believable.
Um, when you said "Or else", I don't think you noticed that I said "NOT"
You do NOT have to follow every rule to get to Heaven.
Also, God is nothing like you portrayed, and you haven't explained why you said so.
There's a lot more unbelievable stuff in life. I'd get used to it, if I were you. For example: My ancestors were apes.
01-23-2010, 07:59 AM
Carôusoul
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noogah
My ancestors were apes.
I thought you didn't believe in evolution..?
01-23-2010, 09:03 AM
Maria92
Quote:
Originally Posted by sora12
Hello there. :)
I am interested in knowing when some of you who are Atheist became/ realized you were atheist and or how? (Sorry if I worded the question in a weird way.) Lately, I've been doubting my belief in God. I grew up all my life believing in him and I've never really given a second thought to his existence. So I just wanted to see if anybody went through a similar experience before they became Atheist and stuff like that.
Sorry, it's late, and I'm not going to read through the entire thread, so I'll just go ahead and respond to the OP. -.-
Growing up, I never went to church...not one single time. My parents never emphasized any school of thought, and basically told me what the facts were and ultimately left me to my own devices. God was sort of there, but never really spoken or taught. Around 7th grade, I started questioning, and after bouncing about for a bit, finally settled on atheism, which, after browsing through dozens of world religions, each containing the equal level of probability, starts to look pretty damn appealing. Eh, I guess I first went with agnosticism, and that sort of solidified into atheism. When you start waffling between straight facts and science on one side, and unproven, low-quality evidence and hundreds of religions all claiming to be the one true religion, there really is no contest.
There is nothing wrong with doubting your belief in God...in fact, I encourage it highly, and not just because I'm an atheist. Questioning the world around you is one of the best ways to discover truth and keep an open mind. What you believe is what you believe, but the fact that you're putting thought into it is a very good step, and no matter what you conclude, I am happy for this. :)
01-23-2010, 10:23 AM
Noogah
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carôusoul
I thought you didn't believe in evolution..?
That brings a whole new level to "Out of context" :roll:
01-23-2010, 10:49 AM
Carôusoul
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noogah
That brings a whole new level to "Out of context" :roll:
cheer up.
01-23-2010, 12:44 PM
Bonsay
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noogah
My ancestors were apes.
You are an ape.
01-23-2010, 06:47 PM
juroara
in "him"? well that's your first problem
01-23-2010, 06:50 PM
Carôusoul
Quote:
Originally Posted by juroara
in "him"? well that's your first problem
Oh come on, it's quite clear she's using that as a convenient way to refer to God and in no way believes god is a him. It's a figure of speech. I refer to god as a him, but I in no way think of him as anything gender based, lots of people do this.
You're just being pedantic.
01-23-2010, 06:52 PM
juroara
I don't refer to God as a 'him'. Language influences your perspective!
01-23-2010, 06:55 PM
Carôusoul
Quote:
Originally Posted by juroara
I don't refer to God as a 'him'. Language influences your perspective!
Yeah but she obviously didn't mean anything explicit by it. I don't think it's harmful. In this case it's pretty harmless to say him.
01-23-2010, 08:52 PM
sora12
Thanks everyone for the insightful comments and experiences. I got a lot in one day. :shock:
Quote:
Originally Posted by juroara
I don't refer to God as a 'him'. Language influences your perspective!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carôusoul
Oh come on, it's quite clear she's using that as a convenient way to refer to God and in no way believes god is a him. It's a figure of speech. I refer to god as a him, but I in no way think of him as anything gender based, lots of people do this.
Yeah, that's what I meant when I referred to God as "him", I meant no harm. For all I know if God does exist he could be genderless or a female. I'm just used to people around referring to God as a him. :D
01-23-2010, 09:51 PM
Caprisun
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonsay
You are an ape.
Zing!
Quote:
Originally Posted by sora12
Hello there. :)
I am interested in knowing when some of you who are Atheist became/ realized you were atheist and or how? (Sorry if I worded the question in a weird way.) Lately, I've been doubting my belief in God. I grew up all my life believing in him and I've never really given a second thought to his existence. So I just wanted to see if anybody went through a similar experience before they became Atheist and stuff like that.
Ironically, I started to have serious doubts around the time I was being confirmed into the Catholic church when I was 16. Im 21 now and my atheistic beliefs continue to be reaffirmed as I get older.
01-24-2010, 12:12 AM
hypnocella
I don't understand the draw to atheism, it's a much less rational conclusion, almost arrogant even, to say were alone in the universe and everything just happened. Leaves alot of questions. No matter how high you climb the dimensional latter you're left with how that got going, you need something that is intelligent anmd beyond this physical universe and is eternal in order to justify everything else. The question should be what is God instead of whether or not God exists, it's such a waste of time in life...to be an athiest. You're basically not caring and giving up on what's over your head, not a hallmark of humanity if you'd ask me. We don't give up like that, atheism is truly the new world religion of apathy and indifference.
01-24-2010, 12:17 AM
Black_Eagle
Quote:
Originally Posted by hypnocella
I don't understand the draw to atheism, it's a much less rational conclusion, almost arrogant even, to say were alone in the universe and everything just happened. Leaves alot of questions. No matter how high you clime the dimensional latter you're left with how that got going, you need something that is intelligent anmd beyond this physical universe and is eternal in order to justify everything else. The question should be what is God instead of whether or not God exists, it's such a waste of time in life.
In that case, where did God come from? You could say he always existed, but then, why couldn't the universe have always existed in some form or another?
Quote:
You're basically not caring and giving up on what's over your head, not a hallmark of humanity if you'd ask me. We don't give up like that, atheism is truly the new world religion of apathy and indifference.
How is lacking belief in god make a person apathetic to the question of where existence came from?
01-24-2010, 12:20 AM
sora12
Quote:
Originally Posted by hypnocella
I don't understand the draw to atheism, it's a much less rational conclusion, almost arrogant even, to say were alone in the universe and everything just happened. Leaves alot of questions. No matter how high you climb the dimensional latter you're left with how that got going, you need something that is intelligent anmd beyond this physical universe and is eternal in order to justify everything else. The question should be what is God instead of whether or not God exists, it's such a waste of time in life...to be an athiest. You're basically not caring and giving up on what's over your head, not a hallmark of humanity if you'd ask me. We don't give up like that, atheism is truly the new world religion of apathy and indifference.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Black_Eagle
In that case, where did God come from? You could say he always existed, but then, why couldn't the universe have always existed in some form or another?
You two give some good points. There's a lot for me to ponder.
I don't think it's a waste of time in life to be an atheist though.
01-24-2010, 12:34 AM
Scatterbrain
Quote:
Originally Posted by hypnocella
You're basically not caring and giving up on what's over your head, not a hallmark of humanity if you'd ask me. We don't give up like that, atheism is truly the new world religion of apathy and indifference.
Lol?
Quote:
Originally Posted by hypnocella
The question should be what is God instead of whether or not God exists, it's such a waste of time in life...to be an athiest.
Without any proof or logic declaring a god hypothesis correct and calling the pursuit of truth a waste of time. That's what's being arrogant and giving up. No curiosity.
01-24-2010, 12:58 AM
Photolysis
Quote:
Originally Posted by hypnocella
I don't understand the draw to atheism, it's a much less rational conclusion, almost arrogant even, to say were alone in the universe and everything just happened.
Firstly, you have no idea what a conclusion is. Atheism is a lack of belief in a deity. It's not a conclusion that we're all alone, it's what evidence currently suggests. In fact drawing the conclusion we're definitely alone based on such little evidence would be stupid. Much like what you demonstrate in your post actually.
Secondly, true arrogance is the egocentric view that "I must have a purpose" and "the universe has to be here for some reason".
Thirdly, you should educate yourself instead of spouting the "everything just happened" line which seems so common amongst Christian propaganda artists.
Quote:
. No matter how high you climb the dimensional latter you're left with how that got going, you need something that is intelligent anmd beyond this physical universe and is eternal in order to justify everything else.
No, sorry, declaring that the answer to this is "something intelligent" doesn't make it an answer. Blindly asserting this as fact is doesn't make it on. Ironic how you display the flaw you accuse atheism of by arrogantly assuming you have the answer, or at least part of it.
If it's possible for an all powerful god to have always existed, why could the universe not always have existed? And Occam's Razor states that the universe always existing is more likely than an all powerful god always existing.
Quote:
The question should be what is God instead of whether or not God exists
Only if you're a closed-minded fool who is unwilling to entertain the idea that there might not be a god, and who assumes they have part of the answer to such things on no basis.
Quote:
it's such a waste of time in life...to be an athiest. You're basically not caring and giving up on what's over your head, not a hallmark of humanity if you'd ask me. We don't give up like that, atheism is truly the new world religion of apathy and indifference.
You know what's truly a waste of time? Living in some pig ignorant backwater part of the States, being a closed-minded and arrogant fool who ignorantly dismisses things they have almost no understanding of.
Perhaps you should educate yourself on atheism instead of reeling off propaganda that happens to be completely false?
01-24-2010, 06:29 AM
hypnocella
Quote:
Originally Posted by Black_Eagle
In that case, where did God come from? You could say he always existed, but then, why couldn't the universe have always existed in some form or another?
How is lacking belief in god make a person apathetic to the question of where existence came from?[/
No matter how high you climb the dimensional latter you're left with how that got going, you need something that is intelligent anmd beyond this physical universe and is eternal in order to justify everything else
God is the rational conclusion, it takes balls to believe in God though, not everyone really wants that huge responsibility.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scatterbrain
Without any proof or logic declaring a god hypothesis correct and calling the pursuit of truth a waste of time. That's what's being arrogant and giving up. No curiosity.
Pursuit of truth=pursuit of God, curiosity of what is behind our existence, universe, etc, giving us purpose.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Photolysis
No, sorry, declaring that the answer to this is "something intelligent" doesn't make it an answer. Blindly asserting this as fact is doesn't make it on. Ironic how you display the flaw you accuse atheism of by arrogantly assuming you have the answer, or at least part of it.
If it's possible for an all powerful god to have always existed, why could the universe not always have existed? And Occam's Razor states that the universe always existing is more likely than an all powerful god always existing.
Only if you're a closed-minded fool who is unwilling to entertain the idea that there might not be a god, and who assumes they have part of the answer to such things on no basis.
Some of this can all be answered in the responses above. Atheism is denying what you don't know, if you don't know there's a God than be an agnostic, or give evidence that God doesn't exist. Youve got to pick one of two irrational beliefs, that things just become purposelessly out of nothing with no intelligence behind it or things became through intelligent purpose with an eternal God being at the top of that latter. Then you have faith in that chosing. You chose the uncurious and accuse me of not being curious, you have a faith-based belief system called atheism, while I have a theistic belief system that I also have faith in. You and I differ only on what side of the God coin we flipped.
Quote:
You know what's truly a waste of time? Living in some pig ignorant backwater part of the States, being a closed-minded and arrogant fool who ignorantly dismisses things they have almost no understanding of.
Perhaps you should educate yourself on atheism instead of reeling off propaganda that happens to be completely false?
Anger is a natural reaction to an assault on a long-held belief system, one that isn't without it's flaws. You could even describe yourself, which is ironic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sora12
You two give some good points. There's a lot for me to ponder.
I don't think it's a waste of time in life to be an atheist though.
Okay let me reword that, becoming an atheist, at least too early in life, is to give up that search. If we have one life we should make the most with our thinking and searching. I was raised Catholic and you kniow I believe it still, maybe your search for God is more complicated I can't say.
01-24-2010, 06:35 AM
Maria92
Quote:
Originally Posted by hypnocella
No matter how high you climb the dimensional latter you're left with how that got going, you need something that is intelligent anmd beyond this physical universe and is eternal in order to justify everything else
God is the rational conclusion, it takes balls to believe in God though, not everyone really wants that huge responsibility.
Okay, 1. Why the hell do you need intelligence behind the universe?
2. Why do you need justification?
3. How the hell is God the logical conclusion? :hrm:
Quote:
Pursuit of truth=pursuit of God, curiosity of what is behind our existence, universe, etc, giving us purpose.
Look, more assertions...listen, why the hell should mankind require a purpose? What sort of naive school of thought makes you think humans are significant in any way, shape, or form? We're organized blobs of matter...that really is it.
Quote:
Some of this can all be answered in the responses above. Atheism is denying what you don't know, if you don't know there's a God than be an agnostic, or give evidence that God doesn't exist. Youve got to pick one of two irrational beliefs, that things just become purposelessly out of nothing with no intelligence behind it or things became through intelligent purpose with an eternal God being at the top of that latter. You chose the uncurious and accuse me of not being curious.
The burden of proof is on the person making the positive claim. It is far from irrational to choose atheism, as it actually promotes skepticism and critical thought. Believing in God does not make you more open-minded or curious...more gullible, perhaps.
Quote:
Anger is a natural reaction to an assault on a long-held belief system, one that isn't without it's flaws. You could even describe yourself, which is ironic.
Lolwut?
01-24-2010, 06:43 AM
Xedan
Open-minded Video time, Mario?
01-24-2010, 06:46 AM
Maria92
I'm definitely threatening to post...BOTH of them, this time. :biggrin: Just remember, he made me do this!
The second pretty much hits the nail on the head in this case...
01-24-2010, 06:49 AM
hypnocella
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mario92
Okay, 1. Why the hell do you need intelligence behind the universe?
2. Why do you need justification?
3. How the hell is God the logical conclusion? :hrm:
1. you would have a stupid universe
2. why not???
3. cause no god is a bad one
Quote:
look, more assertions...listen, why the hell should mankind require a purpose? What sort of naive school of thought makes you think humans are significant in any way, shape, or form? We're organized blobs of matter...that really is it.
Depressing!!! We're here for a reason, fill your life with thoughts why we would be if you don't know, but taking the easy way out by not caring isn't very good.
Quote:
The burden of proof is on the person making the positive claim. It is far from irrational to choose atheism, as it actually promotes skepticism and critical thought. Believing in God does not make you more open-minded or curious...more gullible, perhaps.
What exactly do you base that on? People who believe in God are pretty skeptical and have criticism, that's why we have two opposing and different political parties in America, it boils down fundementally to theists vs atheists in a political form. ALso too I believe in two realities, you only one, whose more into the curious, open-minded spectrum?
01-24-2010, 06:57 AM
Maria92
Quote:
Originally Posted by hypnocella
1. you would have a stupid universe
2. why not???
3. cause no god is a bad one
1. So what? Seems pretty damn random and chaotic...not really any sort of organized pattern to how galaxies are arranged, after all.
2. Because you don't need one. Derp.
3. ...right, because, you know, things just can't be left to their own devices. Surely, that would only lead to madness. Now I ask, who's being the close-minded individual here? You are absolutely dead-set on there needing to be some sort of divine creator, based only on your puny human reasoning, requiring no tangible evidence.
Quote:
Depressing!!! We're here for a reason, fill your life with thoughts why we would be if you don't know, but taking the easy way out by not caring isn't very good.
It is far from depressing. Seriously, what do you hope mankind will accomplish? What the hell do you think we're working toward? What kind of dent could we possibly leave in the universe? Also considered that we could all be wiped out by nuclear war or a giant meteor...the only thing that really separates us from monkeys is the power of reason, and yet they seem insignificant enough. Just because you don't believe in a higher purpose of some sort doesn't mean you feel apathetic toward life. In fact, you'll find that many atheists live full, happy lives. :hrm:
Quote:
What exactly do you base that on? People who believe in God are pretty skeptical and have criticism, that's why we have two opposing and different political parties in America, it boils down fundementally to theists vs atheists in a political form. ALso too I believe in two realities, you only one, whose more into the curious, open-minded spectrum?
No, it is far too easy to conclude that "god did it, end of story." Attributing a divine to unexplained phenomena instead of looking for truth and what really happened is close-minded. There is no evidence for any sort of spirit, soul, or anything of the nature (Praise, don't...don't even go there. Just stop. Stop right now.). Demanding evidence is not being close-minded.
01-24-2010, 07:01 AM
Xedan
Quote:
Originally Posted by hypnocella
1. you would have a stupid universe
2. why not???
3. cause no god is a bad one
Those are very poor reasons.
1. Humans are intelligent and it can be shown to within a shadow of a doubt how we were created by chance
2. Because it is far more likely that everything happened by chance
3. No God means that the universe is so massive that by sheer logic almost every physically possible phenomenon will have occurred. But that makes no sense, because we already know that the universe is small, Earth centered, and created by god, according to an unamended bible anyways.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hypnocella
Depressing!!! We're here for a reason, fill your life with thoughts why we would be if you don't know, but taking the easy way out by not caring isn't very good.
Saying we have no purpose for being alive is not taking the easy way out. In fact it's quite the opposite. The easy way would be to think of yourself as more righteous than the next man because you lived a "meaningful" life. Thinking that we are free to do whatever we want and must find our own paths is the hard way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hypnocella
What exactly do you base that on? People who believe in God are pretty skeptical and have criticism, that's why we have two opposing and different political parties in America, it boils down fundementally to theists vs atheists in a political form. ALso too I believe in two realities, you only one, whose more into the curious, open-minded spectrum?
I believe that the flying spaghetti monster will emerge from his Etheric Plane, preceded by an army of meerkats, to take over the world and free the true believers form the evil Brownie-muffin. I'm WAY more open minded than you!
01-24-2010, 07:05 AM
Xedan
I mean SERIOUSLY, believing in a god not created by an omnipotent Italian chef is so closed-minded.
Those are very poor reasons.
1. Humans are intelligent and it can be shown to within a shadow of a doubt how we were created by chance
2. Because it is far more likely that everything happened by chance
3. No God means that the universe is so massive that by sheer logic almost every physically possible phenomenon will have occurred. But that makes no sense, because we already know that the universe is small, Earth centered, and created by god, according to an unamended bible anyways.
It was a half joke response, if you read the previous thread of mine you would understand more. But to kick back in to serious mode:
1. How non-imaginitive
2. How non-imaginitive.
3. How non-imaginitive, you're using that mind of yours way under it's potential I'm afraid.
That was also humorous, I had to do that, okay again:
1 & 2 & 3. Both overwhelmingly irrational and impossible, that molecules got together to form complicated self-replicating apparatus that goes out of the way to get energy, and burn energy to continue to replicate more of itself. Why the need to continue to exist and have progeny in dead molecular matter with no intelligence behind it?? And the evolution of life, the intelligence in life and mankind, Come on man, wake up, stop repeating the same parroted stuff about chance, there must be a website atheists goto and copy stuff from. Ironically you put faith in chance, and I'm silly for believing in the real force behind this spark of life.
01-24-2010, 07:41 AM
Xedan
Quote:
Originally Posted by hypnocella
1 & 2 & 3. Both overwhelmingly irrational and impossible, that molecules got together to form complicated self-replicating apparatus that goes out of the way to get energy, and burn energy to continue to replicate more of itself. Why the need to continue to exist and have progeny in dead molecular matter with no intelligence behind it?? And the evolution of life, the intelligence in life and mankind, Come on man, wake up, stop repeating the same parroted stuff about chance, there must be a website atheists goto and copy stuff from. Ironically you put faith in chance, and I'm silly for believing in the real force behind this spark of life.
No, you're silly for putting a far more complicated idea into place where a much simpler one actually explains it a lot better. The website is called COMMON SENSE ABOUT SCIENCE.com. In fact scientist have taken molecules and put them under 'early earth' conditions, and the molecules formed amino acids, which can form life. And said molecules were created from stardust. That is, the matter flung into space after a supernova. Before a supernova occurs, the star, through the process of nuclear fusion, creates heavier and heavier elements, starting with helium. Those stars are formed from gravity pulling together particles in space, causing friction, which eventually exceeds 20,000 or so degrees and a star is born. Those particles came from matter/anti matter explosions at the time of the big bang. Any other questions about how we got from point A to point B?
01-24-2010, 07:42 AM
Maria92
Quote:
Originally Posted by hypnocella
It was a half joke response, if you read the previous thread of mine you would understand more. But to kick back in to serious mode:
1. How non-imaginitive
2. How non-imaginitive.
3. How non-imaginitive, you're using that mind of yours way under it's potential I'm afraid.
That was also humorous, I had to do that, okay again:
There goes your credit. Bye, credit. :okbyenow: Seriously bro, when debating, at least try to take it seriously...it is very difficult to pick up on sarcasm/humor over the internet unless it is made painfully clear, which it was not.
Quote:
1 & 2 & 3. Both overwhelmingly irrational and impossible, that molecules got together to form complicated self-replicating apparatus that goes out of the way to get energy, and burn energy to continue to replicate more of itself. Why the need to continue to exist and have progeny in dead molecular matter with no intelligence behind it?? And the evolution of life, the intelligence in life and mankind, Come on man, wake up, stop repeating the same parroted stuff about chance, there must be a website atheists goto and copy stuff from. Ironically you put faith in chance, and I'm silly for believing in the real force behind this spark of life.
You want irrational? Which is more likely: that molecules began bonding in new ways and forming new structures, which ultimately got together in a sort of symbiotic relationship to form the early beginnings of life, or that some divine something-or-other has always been around, outside of time, popping up from god-knows-where, and interfering only at very select times? The first one really isn't that implausible at all, while the second one is what really borders on the impossible.
If you look at life, it is little more than a series of self-sustaining chemical reactions. Organisms receive signals from the environment to grow and adapt, the chemical processes keep one another alive and well, and each organelle in an organism has a specific function...namely, performing some sort of chemical reaction. Life does not need a guiding hand or some form of intelligence to continue living...it just needs the right conditions. If you put an amoeba in a solution of sulfuric acid, the harsh conditions will stop crucial chemical reactions and cause the amoeba to die...end of story.
01-24-2010, 08:18 AM
Hidden
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xedan
No, you're silly for putting a far more complicated idea into place where a much simpler one actually explains it a lot better. The website is called COMMON SENSE ABOUT SCIENCE.com. In fact scientist have taken molecules and put them under 'early earth' conditions, and the molecules formed amino acids, which can form life. And said molecules were created from stardust. That is, the matter flung into space after a supernova. Before a supernova occurs, the star, through the process of nuclear fusion, creates heavier and heavier elements, starting with helium. Those stars are formed from gravity pulling together particles in space, causing friction, which eventually exceeds 20,000 or so degrees and a star is born. Those particles came from matter/anti matter explosions at the time of the big bang. Any other questions about how we got from point A to point B?
Let's pretend, for a moment, that neither side has any evidence for their claim of how intelligent life began. Let's say I've been living on another planet in a far away galaxy for my entire life, but have recently decided to move to Earth. To fit in with the native population, I have to start believing in one of these two ideas.
Option A: An almighty, intelligent being called "God" created the universe.
Option B: We were created from stardust.
Do you know how much more fun it is to say, "I used to be stardust" than "God created man"?
01-24-2010, 08:19 AM
Xedan
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hidden
Let's pretend, for a moment, that neither side has any evidence for their claim of how intelligent life began. Let's say I've been living on another planet in a far away galaxy for my entire life, but have recently decided to move to Earth. To fit in with the native population, I have to start believing in one of these two ideas.
Option A: An almighty, intelligent being called "God" created the universe.
Option B: We were created from stardust.
Do you know how much more fun it is to say, "I used to be stardust" than "God created man"?
It doesn't make it any less true. The universe recycles itself. eventually the remains of earth will become another star, which will become another star, and so on until it goes into the making of a supergiant, which will go supernova. Then earth will once again be stardust.
01-24-2010, 08:24 AM
Hidden
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xedan
It doesn't make it any less true. The universe recycles itself. eventually the remains of earth will become another star, which will become another star, and so on until it goes into the making of a supergiant, which will go supernova. Then earth will once again be stardust.
I didn't say either was or wasn't true. I'm actually not entirely sure what my point was... I just saw that you mentioned stardust and I was like, "wow, that sounds really cool!"
01-24-2010, 08:28 AM
Xedan
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hidden
I didn't say either was or wasn't true. I'm actually not entirely sure what my point was... I just saw that you mentioned stardust and I was like, "wow, that sounds really cool!"
lol, sorry. For some reason (probably the fact that 'H' started your name) I thought you were Hypnocella. And I think it's fun because it resembles the whimsical term "pixie-dust."
01-24-2010, 08:31 AM
Maria92
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hidden
I didn't say either was or wasn't true. I'm actually not entirely sure what my point was... I just saw that you mentioned stardust and I was like, "wow, that sounds really cool!"
Hahah, I know exactly what you mean. :) I would do the exact same thing.
"Join us and be a Christian. Learn the teachings of Christ."
"Join us and be part of the HAPPY FUN CLUB OF EXCELLENT AWESOMENESS! We came from stardust, and we're damn proud of it!"
I'm a gonna go with the second one. I don't care what it's preaching, it sounds like pure awesome. :D
Yay Touchyournose! Someone's read the books of Enoch!
01-24-2010, 09:54 AM
Carôusoul
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hidden
Let's pretend, for a moment, that neither side has any evidence for their claim of how intelligent life began. Let's say I've been living on another planet in a far away galaxy for my entire life, but have recently decided to move to Earth. To fit in with the native population, I have to start believing in one of these two ideas.
Option A: An almighty, intelligent being called "God" created the universe.
Option B: We were created from stardust.
Do you know how much more fun it is to say, "I used to be stardust" than "God created man"?
I actually think it's far more tempting to believe we were made by god.
Because with that you get the totally nerfed ending of everyonehappy joy love everything ok no problems ever for any one we're all super special and never die ever because we are everything important and always loved and never alone and HOORAY!
That's more tempting than, we're animals, with no cosmic significance other than that which we ourselves grapple.
01-24-2010, 12:55 PM
Bonsay
Quote:
Originally Posted by hypnocella
I don't understand the draw to atheism, it's a much less rational conclusion, almost arrogant even, to say were alone in the universe and everything just happened.
The world view of most atheists is as rational as it can get in regards to the observable, objective world.
It's arrogant to say something happened? If taking the leap of faith to say things we saw happen actually happened, then how arrogant is it to say that things we can't detect happened? I'd say quite more arrogant.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hypnocella
Leaves alot of questions. No matter how high you climb the dimensional latter you're left with how that got going, you need something that is intelligent anmd beyond this physical universe and is eternal in order to justify everything else.
Yes, it leaves a lot of questions. That's because we aren't afraid of not knowing. That's why we rather search for truth than base the world on complete assumptions, like the one I just quoted: "you need something that is intelligent anmd beyond this physical universe and is eternal in order to justify everything else."
Quote:
Originally Posted by hypnocella
The question should be what is God instead of whether or not God exists, it's such a waste of time in life...to be an athiest. You're basically not caring and giving up on what's over your head, not a hallmark of humanity if you'd ask me. We don't give up like that, atheism is truly the new world religion of apathy and indifference.
A waste of time? To waste time you first need purpose. If there is no purpose other than the one we give ourselves, then no, nobody wastes their time except the ones that see themselves as wasting time.
You are the one giving up and not caring. Most atheist, as I said, strive to find out why things are the way they are. You just say "God did it". I don't know what kind of logic you use, but the first sentence presents "caring", as in searching for truth, the second one, saying, "God did it", is giving up on the search for truth. It is quite a hallmark of humanity: Surprise, surprise... at the time when atheism is on the rise, we're seeing the greatest achievements and discoveries in history. That's called not giving up, if you actually need a translation. The extreme side of religions showed its potential in the dark ages. If we're tipping to the atheistic side of things, I think the differences are clear.
01-24-2010, 04:07 PM
Scatterbrain
Quote:
Originally Posted by hypnocella
Pursuit of truth=pursuit of God, curiosity of what is behind our existence, universe, etc, giving us purpose.
No... just... no.
Pursuit of truth = pursuit of truth
Someone with curiosity admits ignorance about whatever there might have been before the big bang. You on the other hand instantly declare god as the truth, and deem anything else pointless. You have no curiosity about the answers, you simply make them up to your convenience.
01-24-2010, 04:25 PM
Photolysis
Quote:
Originally Posted by hypnocella
God is the rational conclusion, it takes balls to believe in God though, not everyone really wants that huge responsibility.
It doesn't take balls, what you have displayed is intellectual cowardice. You have displayed the childlike inability to distinguish between what you like to be true and what you believe.
1. Someone suggested there is not god
2. I don't like this
3. Therefore there is a god
How childish can you get?
Saying "I don't yet know" takes balls. Admitting you don't have an answer for definite takes balls. Assuming one because your rampant egotism demands a purpose does not.
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Some of this can all be answered in the responses above. Atheism is denying what you don't know, if you don't know there's a God than be an agnostic, or give evidence that God doesn't exist. Youve got to pick one of two irrational beliefs, that things just become purposelessly out of nothing with no intelligence behind it or things became through intelligent purpose with an eternal God being at the top of that latter. Then you have faith in that chosing. You chose the uncurious and accuse me of not being curious, you have a faith-based belief system called atheism, while I have a theistic belief system that I also have faith in. You and I differ only on what side of the God coin we flipped.
Atheism is not "denying what you don't know". How you can manage to argue on a subject when you don't even understand the basic concept is beyond me. Well actually, that's not true: you're an ignorant idiot and you're deluded. Still, it's a large club so don't feel too bad.
You also fail to understand that agnosticism is not a belief in itself, despite what the general ignorant masses believe. Agnosticism is the belief that something cannot be known for certain. It has nothing to do with the belief itself. You could be agnostic over alien life existing for instance, yet still believe there is alien life out there
By itself it means almost nothing.
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Anger is a natural reaction to an assault on a long-held belief system, one that isn't without it's flaws. You could even describe yourself, which is ironic.
Don't put yourself on a pedestal, and don't mistake my hostility to your ignorance and childlike beliefs as you mounting a successful assault on my beliefs.
My hostility is towards you, your lack of curiosity, intellect, your ignorance, lack of reasoning, and the arrogance with which you assume an answer, something which does deserve contempt.
01-24-2010, 06:57 PM
hypnocella
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xedan
No, you're silly for putting a far more complicated idea into place where a much simpler one actually explains it a lot better. The website is called COMMON SENSE ABOUT SCIENCE.com. In fact scientist have taken molecules and put them under 'early earth' conditions, and the molecules formed amino acids, which can form life. And said molecules were created from stardust. That is, the matter flung into space after a supernova. Before a supernova occurs, the star, through the process of nuclear fusion, creates heavier and heavier elements, starting with helium. Those stars are formed from gravity pulling together particles in space, causing friction, which eventually exceeds 20,000 or so degrees and a star is born. Those particles came from matter/anti matter explosions at the time of the big bang. Any other questions about how we got from point A to point B?
I didn't deny for a second that these rudimentary building blocks can't be made, only that they would make themselves without intelligence behind it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mario92
You want irrational? Which is more likely: that molecules began bonding in new ways and forming new structures, which ultimately got together in a sort of symbiotic relationship to form the early beginnings of life, or that some divine something-or-other has always been around, outside of time, popping up from god-knows-where, and interfering only at very select times? The first one really isn't that implausible at all, while the second one is what really borders on the impossible.
If you look at life, it is little more than a series of self-sustaining chemical reactions. Organisms receive signals from the environment to grow and adapt, the chemical processes keep one another alive and well, and each organelle in an organism has a specific function...namely, performing some sort of chemical reaction. Life does not need a guiding hand or some form of intelligence to continue living...it just needs the right conditions. If you put an amoeba in a solution of sulfuric acid, the harsh conditions will stop crucial chemical reactions and cause the amoeba to die...end of story.
Okay first of all what's up with you guys and these girl avatars!
You skipped over the big question, the chemical processes keep one another alive and well
Why? Molecules going out of the way to help other molecules survive, chaperones folding those strands into enzymes, etc, burning ATP to run things, all this wonderful engineered purpose-driven machinery is the product of something more than chance, that's my conclusion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hidden
Do you know how much more fun it is to say, "I used to be stardust" than "God created man"?
How about both??
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonsay
Yes, it leaves a lot of questions. That's because we aren't afraid of not knowing. That's why we rather search for truth than base the world on complete assumptions, like the one I just quoted: "you need something that is intelligent anmd beyond this physical universe and is eternal in order to justify everything else."
I just don't think it's that unknowable.
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A waste of time? To waste time you first need purpose. If there is no purpose other than the one we give ourselves, then no, nobody wastes their time except the ones that see themselves as wasting time.
You are the one giving up and not caring. Most atheist, as I said, strive to find out why things are the way they are. You just say "God did it". I don't know what kind of logic you use, but the first sentence presents "caring", as in searching for truth, the second one, saying, "God did it", is giving up on the search for truth. It is quite a hallmark of humanity: Surprise, surprise... at the time when atheism is on the rise, we're seeing the greatest achievements and discoveries in history. That's called not giving up, if you actually need a translation. The extreme side of religions showed its potential in the dark ages. If we're tipping to the atheistic side of things, I think the differences are clear.
Alot of wonderful minds that contributed to science, like Mendel who layed the framework for genetics, was a believer in God...a monk in his case. The idea that denying God makes you a better scientisi isn't a fair thing to conclude. Atheism has also contributed alot of terror in the modern world, such as the Soviet Union with the killing of millions, and Nazi Germany, the killing of million also. Hitler and Stalin and Lenin, Mao, they were all atheists. Roseau, the leader of the French Revolution, was a blood thirsty butcherer also.
It's a fundemental part of the human being to accept that force that is beyond us as real, and to believe in something that's a heck of a lot better than chance, that's such an overplayed card that numbers and physics is what's behind all the stuff I keep saying.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Photolysis
It doesn't take balls, what you have displayed is intellectual cowardice. You have displayed the childlike inability to distinguish between what you like to be true and what you believe.
1. Someone suggested there is not god
2. I don't like this
3. Therefore there is a god
How childish can you get?
Saying "I don't yet know" takes balls. Admitting you don't have an answer for definite takes balls. Assuming one because your rampant egotism demands a purpose does not.
God is the rational conclusion, maybe there are other conclusions but in my opinion, not as rational.
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Atheism is not "denying what you don't know". How you can manage to argue on a subject when you don't even understand the basic concept is beyond me. Well actually, that's not true: you're an ignorant idiot and you're deluded. Still, it's a large club so don't feel too bad.
You also fail to understand that agnosticism is not a belief in itself, despite what the general ignorant masses believe. Agnosticism is the belief that something cannot be known for certain. It has nothing to do with the belief itself. You could be agnostic over alien life existing for instance, yet still believe there is alien life out there
Man everything you say to me could describe yourself, or perhaps I'm from a different club. So can a man be both a post-enlightenment era rationalist and at that same token, believe in God. Look at our great minds like Kant, Newton, the founding fathers, etc...a proud tradition of a balance between science and God.
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Don't put yourself on a pedestal, and don't mistake my hostility to your ignorance and childlike beliefs as you mounting a successful assault on my beliefs.
My hostility is towards you, your lack of curiosity, intellect, your ignorance, lack of reasoning, and the arrogance with which you assume an answer, something which does deserve contempt.
You assume an answer, there's no God, I assume an answer, there is God. Based on what though? Sometimes you can read something through it's creation, such as this wonderful thing called life, this vast ordered universe, this intelligence we have to even ask the question, to search for God. Then the whole mass experiences of the paranormal and supernatural, to dismiss it as nothing doesn't impress me as very progressive.
01-24-2010, 07:10 PM
Carôusoul
Quote:
Originally Posted by hypnocella
Alot of wonderful minds that contributed to science, like Mendel who layed the framework for genetics, was a believer in God...a monk in his case. The idea that denying God makes you a better scientisi isn't a fair thing to conclude. Atheism has also contributed alot of terror in the modern world, such as the Soviet Union with the killing of millions, and Nazi Germany, the killing of million also. Hitler and Stalin and Lenin, Mao, they were all atheists. Roseau, the leader of the French Revolution, was a blood thirsty butcherer also.
I'm not really involved here, but this stood out a little to me.
The Nazi's had the words "God is With Us" engraved on all their issued belt buckles. Hitler himself is very debated over his beliefs. HE said at certain times explicitly he was a catholic, at other times he was reported as saying Germany should be the only God. Either way It's highly unfair and against the evidence to claim him as an "atheist". The reality is much more shrouded.
The people you listed didn't commit any of their crimes because they were atheists. We could play that game all day of listing people who were christian who commited atrocities and any religion and agnostic and atheist whatever, it's pointless and has no place in an adult conversation.
Also the reason in the past scientists have often been religious is firstly because religion played a very different role in the past. It consisted of the early sciences as well as just worshipping. Also nearly everyone of high social standing and deemed worthy of an education was religious. Because it was so much more widespread and fervent than it is today OF COURSE more scientists were religious of the time. What really nails this point home is that in the past century, as science has found more and religion has dwindled, scientists have become less and less religious, to the extent that today the majority of top scientists, by many sources I can find if you want, are non religious.
Not trying to get into an argument, It's just those two statements were quite wrong.
01-24-2010, 07:16 PM
Xedan
Quote:
Originally Posted by hypnocella
I didn't deny for a second that these rudimentary building blocks can't be made, only that they would make themselves without intelligence behind it. Go down two responses for an explanation, I wrote that one first and don't want to repeat myself.
Okay first of all what's up with you guys and these girl avatars! Mine was my dream guide, and Mario's is his favorite (or possibly second favorite) anime.
You skipped over the big question, the chemical processes keep one another alive and well
Why? Molecules going out of the way to help other molecules survive, chaperones folding those strands into enzymes, etc, burning ATP to run things, all this wonderful engineered purpose-driven machinery is the product of something more than chance, that's my conclusion. Again, you obviously don't understand the sheer scale of the universe. Think of it this way: Millions of people play the lottery. Almost every one of them fail. But one of them is lucky enough to get the right numbers. Now, where they told the right numbers by a person on the inside, a person "intelligent", or did they just happen to be the likely statistic of someone eventually getting it right?
I just don't think it's that unknowable. What evidence do you have? You know nothing! You GUESS! Stop taking any of what you're saying for fact. They are NOT! You do NOT call something a fact, and therefor do NOT know it to be true, unless it is extremely likely and no other possibility is available. And even those are very loose qualifications for facts. Scientists take almost nothing they do for fact. But they can provide information to back it up to within a shadow of a doubt. But said shadow is all someone needs to come up with a more likely theory.
.
01-24-2010, 07:29 PM
Xedan
Quote:
Originally Posted by hypnocella
Alot of wonderful minds that contributed to science, like Mendel who layed the framework for genetics, was a believer in God...a monk in his case. The idea that denying God makes you a better scientisi isn't a fair thing to conclude. Atheism has also contributed alot of terror in the modern world, such as the Soviet Union with the killing of millions, and Nazi Germany, the killing of million also. Hitler and Stalin and Lenin, Mao, they were all atheists. Roseau, the leader of the French Revolution, was a blood thirsty butcherer also.
First off, the French revolution led to liberty, equality, and brotherhood, just as was intended. It was nothing but total war. And by mentioning murder, you've forced my hand. I will now expose the Christian holy writ.
It's a fundemental part of the human being to accept that force that is beyond us as real, and to believe in something that's a heck of a lot better than chance, that's such an overplayed card that numbers and physics is what's behind all the stuff I keep saying. For every grain of sand on every beach on Earth, there are at least a million stars in the universe. Many of these are solar systems. And many of those (many being literal, not relatively, as the numbers would be relatively few) will have planets inhabited by life. Those are the statistics, and those are chance. And lastly, those are probably understatements.
God is the rational conclusion, maybe there are other conclusions but in my opinion, not as rational.
Rationality is not an opinion, so yours has no place in this conversation
Man everything you say to me could describe yourself, or perhaps I'm from a different club. So can a man be both a post-enlightenment era rationalist and at that same token, believe in God. Look at our great minds like Kant, Newton, the founding fathers, etc...a proud tradition of a balance between science and God. Actually, most of the founding fathers were deists. Deists hardly believe in a conventional god. They believe something set things in motion but that anything that happens to you must be earned.
You assume an answer, there's no God, I assume an answer, there is God. Based on what though? Sometimes you can read something through it's creation, such as this wonderful thing called life, this vast ordered universe, this intelligence we have to even ask the question, to search for God. Then the whole mass experiences of the paranormal and supernatural, to dismiss it as nothing doesn't impress me as very progressive. Based on the fact that there is no evidence for god that cannot have intelligence explained away.
.
01-24-2010, 08:33 PM
Sound
Quote:
For every grain of sand on every beach on Earth, there are at least a million stars in the universe. Many of these are solar systems. And many of those (many being literal, not relatively, as the numbers would be relatively few) will have planets inhabited by life. Those are the statistics, and those are chance. And lastly, those are probably understatements.
Just going to cite some numbers off wikipedia.
The universe is about 8,678 x 10^23 km wide (that's 867 800 000 000 000 000 000 000 kilometres.) (disclaimer: this number is quite uncertain. The theories about the size of the universe rages from 13,7 billion light-years to 180 billion light-years... but doesn't really matter. There still isn't an adjective strong enough to describe how big it is.)
In this space, there is about 3-7 x 10^22 stars (30-70 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 / 30-70 sextillion stars), organized in about 80 000 000 000 galaxies.
Someone look at these numbers and tell me chance has nothing to do with it.
The universe is about 8,678 x 10^23 km wide (that's 867 800 000 000 000 000 000 000 kilometres.)
In this space, there is about 3-7 x 10^22 stars (30-70 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 stars / 30-70 sextillion stars), organized in about 80 000 000 000 galaxies.
Someone look at these numbers and tell me chance has nothing to do with it.
Spoiler for oh god:
And it's constantly expanding D:
01-24-2010, 08:50 PM
Xedan
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sound
Just going to cite some numbers off wikipedia.
The universe is about 8,678 x 10^23 km wide (that's 867 800 000 000 000 000 000 000 kilometres.) (disclaimer: this number is quite uncertain. The theories about the size of the universe rages from 13,7 billion light-years to 180 billion light-years... but doesn't really matter. There still isn't an adjective strong enough to describe how big it is.)
In this space, there is about 3-7 x 10^22 stars (30-70 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 / 30-70 sextillion stars), organized in about 80 000 000 000 galaxies.
Someone look at these numbers and tell me chance has nothing to do with it.
Obviously, this is highly simplified, but yeah, that's the general gist of atheism. We aren't "giving up" or claiming to know everything; all we're saying is that we'd rather trust the dudes carrying out experiments and making observations about the universe instead of the guys interpreting a 2,000-year-old book. It is important to distinguish between rational thoughts with evidence and assertions, which thus far, hypnocella has yet to show he can do.
Quote:
Okay first of all what's up with you guys and these girl avatars!
We're making the forums pretty. Sod off.
01-24-2010, 10:43 PM
hypnocella
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carôusoul
I'm not really involved here, but this stood out a little to me.
The Nazi's had the words "God is With Us" engraved on all their issued belt buckles. Hitler himself is very debated over his beliefs. HE said at certain times explicitly he was a catholic, at other times he was reported as saying Germany should be the only God. Either way It's highly unfair and against the evidence to claim him as an "atheist". The reality is much more shrouded.
The people you listed didn't commit any of their crimes because they were atheists. We could play that game all day of listing people who were christian who commited atrocities and any religion and agnostic and atheist whatever, it's pointless and has no place in an adult conversation.
Hitler eventually wanted to replace Catholicism with his rascist nationalism. Millions of Catholics died in concentration camps btw. These figures thought hey if people believe in no God, society would be better off, and didn't turn out that way. The other extreme would be free thinking into science when sciecne is considered purely unnecessary by religious authorities is also an extreme, what's ideal in society is some middle ground for everyone to breathe.
Quote:
Also the reason in the past scientists have often been religious is firstly because religion played a very different role in the past. It consisted of the early sciences as well as just worshipping. Also nearly everyone of high social standing and deemed worthy of an education was religious. Because it was so much more widespread and fervent than it is today OF COURSE more scientists were religious of the time. What really nails this point home is that in the past century, as science has found more and religion has dwindled, scientists have become less and less religious, to the extent that today the majority of top scientists, by many sources I can find if you want, are non religious.
Not trying to get into an argument, It's just those two statements were quite wrong.
The point is they don't necessarily have to be conflicting, at least with those past examples. I'm sure there are some top minds today who believe in God, but understadably religion is more in the home and out of society than ever before.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xedan
For every grain of sand on every beach on Earth, there are at least a million stars in the universe. Many of these are solar systems. And many of those (many being literal, not relatively, as the numbers would be relatively few) will have planets inhabited by life. Those are the statistics, and those are chance. And lastly, those are probably understatements.
But I keep asking you about this force of life, I call it a "force" because it's a movement forward instead of fading out of the scene when those conditions change. The cell is a small self-maintaing system of extraordinary complexity and order. The cell maintains itself, creates itself, replicates itself, eats, respirates by manipulating it's environment to maintain, evolves, communicates, differentiates, forms complex organisms, this isn't the product of randomness, randomness plays a part in it, but a moment of intervention was there lik the Monolith on 2012, God....and before that the God particle The best we have been able to do is make some basic building blocks in some explosions. Hardly proof that chance did this, that's your logic, chance is behind life although you assume it can happen and have faith in that belief, ironically.
Quote:
First off, the French revolution led to liberty, equality, and brotherhood, just as was intended. It was nothing but total war. And by mentioning murder, you've forced my hand. I will now expose the Christian holy writ.
Jesus said love your enemies, a utopian society is achievable in the NT teachings, it's a basic relatively flexible moral code with some things in it you'd have to believe in like any religion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sound
Just going to cite some numbers off wikipedia.
The universe is about 8,678 x 10^23 km wide (that's 867 800 000 000 000 000 000 000 kilometres.) (disclaimer: this number is quite uncertain. The theories about the size of the universe rages from 13,7 billion light-years to 180 billion light-years... but doesn't really matter. There still isn't an adjective strong enough to describe how big it is.)
In this space, there is about 3-7 x 10^22 stars (30-70 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 / 30-70 sextillion stars), organized in about 80 000 000 000 galaxies.
Someone look at these numbers and tell me chance has nothing to do with it.
Chance is what you replaced God with. It's just a term for random collisions of atoms. Life is all over the universe, even in a few places in our solar system. You just need some conditions for life and it's there. Building blocks of life are just that however, their relationship by themselves without intelligent design behind them are lego blocks. They have no need to work together and stay alive. I'm repeating myself here because this point is being missed.
01-24-2010, 10:59 PM
Scatterbrain
Can you state your main argument in a simple premises-therefore-conclusion manner? It's much simpler to demonstrate its flaws that way.
Otherwise it's just tldr for me.
01-24-2010, 11:06 PM
Maria92
Quote:
But I keep asking you about this force of life, I call it a "force" because it's a movement forward instead of fading out of the scene when those conditions change. The cell is a small self-maintaing system of extraordinary complexity and order. The cell maintains itself, creates itself, replicates itself, eats, respirates by manipulating it's environment to maintain, evolves, communicates, differentiates, forms complex organisms, this isn't the product of randomness, randomness plays a part in it, but a moment of intervention was there lik the Monolith on 2012, God....and before that the God particle The best we have been able to do is make some basic building blocks in some explosions. Hardly proof that chance did this, that's your logic, chance is behind life although you assume it can happen and have faith in that belief, ironically.
Science can explain each and every chemical reaction that takes place within a cell. Probability comes into play when you speculate on the odds of these chemical reactions and cellular processes coming together and "surviving" in a self-sustaining manner. What are the odds? Not fantastic, but not even close to impossible. Given an infinite amount of time, matter, and energy, everything that can happen, will. Do not forget that abiogenesis is only one possible explanation for how life arose...one of many that also don't include any sort of higher power or God. There is no "life force" behind creatures, no driving energy that keeps them going and evolving, just chemical reactions. That's it.
Quote:
Chance is what you replaced God with. It's just a term for random collisions of atoms. Life is all over the universe, even in a few places in our solar system. You just need some conditions for life and it's there. Building blocks of life are just that however, their relationship by themselves without intelligent design behind them are lego blocks. They have no need to work together and stay alive. I'm repeating myself here because this point is being missed.
Luckily, the building blocks of life don't just sit there on the floor, then. They drift over primordial seas, collide, interact. Your "lego brick" analogy is as flawed as it is ridiculous. I place far more confidence in probability than I do any sort of God, which again, only raises more questions than answers.
01-24-2010, 11:24 PM
hypnocella
Okay I want to mention one more thing, then later get back to all that, but all the supernatural and paranormal things out there, atheism prevents you from both taking that seriously and forming theories and ideas about them. Because what happens when something isn't supposed to exist but does!
01-24-2010, 11:28 PM
Maria92
Quote:
Originally Posted by hypnocella
Okay I want to mention one more thing, then later get back to all that, but all the supernatural and paranormal things out there, atheism prevents you from both taking that seriously and forming theories and ideas about them. Because what happens when something isn't supposed to exist but does!
Oh, you've got to be friggin' kidding me. Dude, you are so beyond misinformed at this point. Basically, atheists demand evidence. That's it. They do not immediately dismiss paranormal activity...they search for a legitimate cause. You're actually being skeptical of skepticism. If you had seen the video I posted, you would understand this. Demanding evidence does not make you close-minded. Scientists actively search for causes of paranormal activity, but failing a legitimate explanation, it does not make any sense at all to go "well, it must have been a ghost or God or Satan" or anything of the nature. An unexplained event is just that; unexplained. As our knowledge of how the universe operates grows, we may be able to explain such event at a later date, but to attribute it to God in the mean time is just ridiculous, and can actually prevent the growth of knowledge.
01-24-2010, 11:29 PM
StonedApe
Quote:
Originally Posted by hypnocella
But I keep asking you about this force of life, I call it a "force" because it's a movement forward instead of fading out of the scene when those conditions change. The cell is a small self-maintaing system of extraordinary complexity and order. The cell maintains itself, creates itself, replicates itself, eats, respirates by manipulating it's environment to maintain, evolves, communicates, differentiates, forms complex organisms, this isn't the product of randomness, randomness plays a part in it, but a moment of intervention was there lik the Monolith on 2012, God....and before that the God particle The best we have been able to do is make some basic building blocks in some explosions. Hardly proof that chance did this, that's your logic, chance is behind life although you assume it can happen and have faith in that belief, ironically.
Why must life have a force behind it? Can life not be the force that imposes structure and meaning onto this void?
How do you know there was a moment of intervention?
You are confusing your own lack of understanding with randomness.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hypnocella
Okay I want to mention one more thing, then later get back to all that, but all the supernatural and paranormal things out there, atheism prevents you from both taking that seriously and forming theories and ideas about them. Because what happens when something isn't supposed to exist but does!
No it doesn't. If your saying that it prevents you from coming to the conclusion that God did it, then yes it does, but that's not the same thing. Not believing in something doesn't prevent you from doing anything other than making assumptions based on that belief.
01-24-2010, 11:30 PM
Carôusoul
Quote:
Originally Posted by hypnocella
Okay I want to mention one more thing, then later get back to all that, but all the supernatural and paranormal things out there, atheism prevents you from both taking that seriously and forming theories and ideas about them. Because what happens when something isn't supposed to exist but does!
What on earth are you talking about?!
I can be an atheist and believe in ghosts, werewolves, psychics, telekinesis even fucking bigfoot.
Atheism is a lack of belief in a God. I can still believe any supernatural and paranormal things.
Atheism is NOT lack of belief in anything unproven by science. There is a tendency of atheists to lack belief in things unproven by science however, but that is NOT a neccessary condition of being an atheist.
Atheism doesn't "prevent" you from believing ANYTHING EXCEPT GOD.
01-24-2010, 11:37 PM
Bonsay
Quote:
Originally Posted by hypnocella
They have no need to work together and stay alive. I'm repeating myself here because this point is being missed.
Your point has been adressed a number of times.
Atoms don't need to work together for things to happen. That's what the laws of nature do - make them "work together". You don't need spirits to play legos, these legos build themselves. That's what makes them amazing. But you keep telling us how somebody must be playing with them because... well, because you think you know so.
01-25-2010, 12:37 AM
Hidden
Quote:
Originally Posted by hypnocella
Chance is what you replaced God with. It's just a term for random collisions of atoms. Life is all over the universe, even in a few places in our solar system. You just need some conditions for life and it's there. Building blocks of life are just that however, their relationship by themselves without intelligent design behind them are lego blocks. They have no need to work together and stay alive. I'm repeating myself here because this point is being missed.
I don't know why atoms originally came together to form cells, but it just doesn't make sense to say "I don't know why this happened, therefore God did it." It's like saying that if no one knows where lightning comes from, the logical conclusion is that Zeus makes it.
01-25-2010, 01:50 AM
Xedan
Quote:
Originally Posted by hypnocella
Hitler eventually wanted to replace Catholicism with his rascist nationalism. Millions of Catholics died in concentration camps btw. These figures thought hey if people believe in no God, society would be better off, and didn't turn out that way. The other extreme would be free thinking into science when sciecne is considered purely unnecessary by religious authorities is also an extreme, what's ideal in society is some middle ground for everyone to breathe.
Religion is only necessary in society to prove what cannot be explained. When a man who lived isolated in a desert for 40 years writes down a moral epiphany, it holds absolutely no authority over plausible, tested, and proven conclusions.
The point is they don't necessarily have to be conflicting, at least with those past examples. I'm sure there are some top minds today who believe in God, but understadably religion is more in the home and out of society than ever before. Yeah, there's a reason for that. I'll let you think for a minute.
But I keep asking you about this force of life, I call it a "force" because it's a movement forward instead of fading out of the scene when those conditions change. The cell is a small self-maintaing system of extraordinary complexity and order. The cell maintains itself, creates itself, replicates itself, eats, respirates by manipulating it's environment to maintain, evolves, communicates, differentiates, forms complex organisms, this isn't the product of randomness, randomness plays a part in it, but a moment of intervention was there lik the Monolith on 2012, God....and before that the God particle The best we have been able to do is make some basic building blocks in some explosions. Hardly proof that chance did this, that's your logic, chance is behind life although you assume it can happen and have faith in that belief, ironically. Please tell me you don't actually think the God particle has any religious meaning. There is nothing supernatural about it. It's called the Higgs Boson (possibly spelled wrong) and is the theoretical particle that gives things mass. It hasn't been proven and is far from the only possibility.
Also, like I said, organisms achieve better survival when they evolve. The entire world is covered in bacteria, a creature so small it cannot be seen by the naked eye. Needless to say there are a lot. This again shows that chance is easily the best reason.
Jesus said love your enemies, a utopian society is achievable in the NT teachings, it's a basic relatively flexible moral code with some things in it you'd have to believe in like any religion.
You can't expect me to believe you actually watched those videos. Otherwise you would know god contradicted all of Jesus's teachings in the old testament.
Chance is what you replaced God with. It's just a term for random collisions of atoms. Life is all over the universe, even in a few places in our solar system. You just need some conditions for life and it's there. Building blocks of life are just that however, their relationship by themselves without intelligent design behind them are lego blocks. They have no need to work together and stay alive. I'm repeating myself here because this point is being missed. Except you fail to realize that when they work together they achive something greater for every cell's survival. If there was intelligence behind life and the universe, why is it so uncommon. It couldn't be that it's uncommon because it has a low chance of happening on any given planet, is it?
.
01-25-2010, 03:06 AM
hypnocella
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xedan
Also, like I said, organisms achieve better survival when they evolve. The entire world is covered in bacteria, a creature so small it cannot be seen by the naked eye. Needless to say there are a lot. This again shows that chance is easily the best reason.
How is that related to what you just said??
Quote:
You can't expect me to believe you actually watched those videos. Otherwise you would know god contradicted all of Jesus's teachings in the old testament.
A seperate thread's worth of talking I'm sure, Jesus fulfilled OT scripture and prophecies and suceeded the OT.
Quote:
Except you fail to realize that when they work together they achive something greater for every cell's survival.
And why would they work together for every cell's survival?
[/quote]If there was intelligence behind life and the universe, why is it so uncommon. [/quote]
Is it, or does it seem that way if you don't believe in it.
Quote:
It couldn't be that it's uncommon because it has a low chance of happening on any given planet, is it?
I do believe it's on other planets, even in our solar system, our grandchildren will prove that, NASA needs to find cost effective ways to do this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carousoul
What on earth are you talking about?!
I can be an atheist and believe in ghosts, werewolves, psychics, telekinesis even fucking bigfoot.
Atheism is a lack of belief in a God. I can still believe any supernatural and paranormal things.
Atheism is NOT lack of belief in anything unproven by science. There is a tendency of atheists to lack belief in things unproven by science however, but that is NOT a neccessary condition of being an atheist.
Atheism doesn't "prevent" you from believing ANYTHING EXCEPT GOD.
Some of those other beliefs help strengthen the concept of God. Angels for instance, lead directly to God.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stonedape
Why must life have a force behind it? Can life not be the force that imposes structure and meaning onto this void?
How do you know there was a moment of intervention?
You are confusing your own lack of understanding with randomness.
A force is kicked into motion by something beyond it. Once life became it grew and evolved. It's not a very solid strong statment to say, I don't understand this it must be purposeless and chance is the cause of this. You're assuming that chance is the cause of this and what evidence is there for that? If an alien probe entered our world, we could look at it and say, what is this thing, the universe must have formed it by chance. No, it's obviously an alien-made probe, that's what it is. There's no time will forge this thing eventually, it was set up, maybe it can run independantly and seemlessly but it's not a random thing, how else can I put it.
01-25-2010, 03:08 AM
Hidden
Quote:
Originally Posted by hypnocella
How is that related to what you just said??
Because having more tiny organisms increases the chance that they will come together to form more complex beings.
Quote:
I do believe it's on other planets, even in our solar system, our grandchildren will prove that, NASA needs to find cost effective ways to do this.
Cost effective ways? I'd be glad if they could come up with ANY way to find aliens. Never mind the price if it actually works.
Quote:
Some of those other beliefs help strengthen the concept of God. Angels for instance, lead directly to God.
Your point being...? Yes, certain supernatural beliefs other than believing in God go hand-in-hand with religion, but that doesn't change the definition of an atheist.
01-25-2010, 03:53 AM
Maria92
Quote:
Originally Posted by hypnocella
A force is kicked into motion by something beyond it.
The big bang set all particles and energy in motion. These have continued on their predetermined paths since that time, more or less.
Quote:
Once life became it grew and evolved. It's not a very solid strong statment to say, I don't understand this it must be purposeless and chance is the cause of this. You're assuming that chance is the cause of this and what evidence is there for that?
It's even more ludicrous to state, "I don't understand this, so I'm going to disregard every other possibility and attribute it to some sort of higher power that I have absolutely no evidence for its existence." Yeah, because that makes so much more sense. :shakehead2:
Quote:
If an alien probe entered our world, we could look at it and say, what is this thing, the universe must have formed it by chance. No, it's obviously an alien-made probe, that's what it is. There's no time will forge this thing eventually, it was set up, maybe it can run independantly and seemlessly but it's not a random thing, how else can I put it.
More faulty analogies. Look at that.
01-25-2010, 04:33 AM
Xedan
Quote:
Originally Posted by hypnocella
A seperate thread's worth of talking I'm sure, Jesus fulfilled OT scripture and prophecies and suceeded the OT. Um, what? I'm not quite sure what you're saying there. Elaborate please.
And why would they work together for every cell's survival? Because every cell benefits. If you were put in the jungle along with 50 other city-slickers, you would team together, wouldn't you? Such an act is not of compassion for the others, but of survival. You will no doubt survive longer if you work together.
Quote:
If there was intelligence behind life and the universe, why is it so uncommon.
Is it, or does it seem that way if you don't believe in it. The "it" I was referring to was life. I think I meant to say in the universe, not and the universe, by the way.
I do believe it's on other planets, even in our solar system, our grandchildren will prove that, NASA needs to find cost effective ways to do this. We are already 99% sure that, other than Mars, no other planet in our solar system could harbor life as me know it. And even mars is a stretch.
Some of those other beliefs help strengthen the concept of God. Angels for instance, lead directly to God. Hidden already spoke on this
A force is kicked into motion by something beyond it. Once life became it grew and evolved. It's not a very solid strong statment to say, I don't understand this it must be purposeless and chance is the cause of this. You're assuming that chance is the cause of this and what evidence is there for that? If an alien probe entered our world, we could look at it and say, what is this thing, the universe must have formed it by chance. No, it's obviously an alien-made probe, that's what it is. There's no time will forge this thing eventually, it was set up, maybe it can run independantly and seemlessly but it's not a random thing, how else can I put it.
Chance is extremely likely. It does make sense, even if you can't wrap your pea sized brain around it. Do you seriously still not get it even after the lottery analogy? It is extremely solid and can be backed up by mountains of data and logic.
And who the fuck would find a mechanical probe and say "it must have been created by chance"? You don't know very much about science do you? That isn't exactly what people jump to first. And it isn't open and shut after that is said, either. Nothing the size of a probe would even be able to hit the earth by chance without sustaining significant, if not total, damage. And nothing would by chance get through our atmosphere and land without significant impact. There is a scientific method in place. It has not been abandoned, and is working against you're claims.
01-25-2010, 04:35 AM
Xedan
wow, this thread really sums up my theory of the R/S effect, where totally unrelated-to-original-question debated can and will spring up and jack the thread.
01-25-2010, 04:39 AM
Maria92
This is why I'm so glad the mods aren't locking threads left and right, anymore. At least we can continue to debate whatever the hell we've digressed to, instead of having to interrupt the debate and create a new thread, then state the last three pages of arguments. :roll: Nothing wrong with digressing and expanding on an topic...it's sort of what philosophers would do, I think.
"why is this?"
"because this."
"Why is that?"
"because of this and this."
"Ah, I see. And what of this...".
...and so on. It's fun.
01-25-2010, 04:42 AM
Xedan
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mario92
This is why I'm so glad the mods aren't locking threads left and right, anymore. At least we can continue to debate whatever the hell we've digressed to, instead of having to interrupt the debate and create a new thread, then state the last three pages of arguments. :roll: Nothing wrong with digressing and expanding on an topic...it's sort of what philosophers would do, I think.
"why is this?"
"because this."
"Why is that?"
"because of this and this."
"Ah, I see. And what of this...".
...and so on. It's fun.
It's really slow moving though when only one person is making the positive claim. But I know for a fact that it feels like hell having a thousand skeptics on your back and being alone. But I lived through it and never ended up being proven wrong.
01-25-2010, 04:53 AM
Maria92
Hahahah, man, it was fun riffing on you, I've got to say. And then the thread just descended into lock requests, and basically became a chat room full of pointless gifs and random posts. That was fun...and somehow, I have a feeling that's where this thread is ultimately headed.
Hahahah, man, it was fun riffing on you, I've got to say. And then the thread just descended into lock requests, and basically became a chat room full of pointless gifs and random posts. That was fun...and somehow, I have a feeling that's where this thread is ultimately headed.
I see you didn't notice the thread was revived though. Or did you? I don't even remember anymore :P
01-25-2010, 05:10 AM
Maria92
Did it get revived? I know the original got locked and a duplicate was opened up...is it still going?
01-25-2010, 05:23 AM
Hidden
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xedan
It's really slow moving though when only one person is making the positive claim. But I know for a fact that it feels like hell having a thousand skeptics on your back and being alone. But I lived through it and never ended up being proven wrong.
What did you believe that got a lot of skeptics on your case?
01-25-2010, 05:26 AM
Maria92
He was wondering if psi was the same as witchcraft. The sharks moved in within seconds...I was among them. :mwahaha:
01-25-2010, 05:27 AM
Hidden
Wait... There's a difference? xP I'll have to brush up on what exactly psi is...
01-25-2010, 05:28 AM
Xedan
Yeah, I was pegged immediately for believing in psi and throughout the hundred something posts accumulated in an hour or so, only one of them had anything to do with the original question.
01-25-2010, 05:29 AM
Xedan
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hidden
Wait... There's a difference? xP I'll have to brush up on what exactly psi is...
Maybe, but that was the point of the thread. I don't think there is, and a few people in the revived thread say they're the same, too.
01-25-2010, 05:29 AM
Maria92
Hahahah, the first attack was on establishing the existence of psi itself. Keep in mind that this was in R/S, too. Poor guy never stood a chance...
01-25-2010, 05:31 AM
Hidden
So you do believe in psi? And if all you wanted to know was if it was the same thing as witchcraft, why on Earth would you post it in R/S? xP Unless you didn't post it here, in which case disregard that.
Edit: Mario sniped.
01-25-2010, 05:35 AM
Xedan
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hidden
So you do believe in psi? And if all you wanted to know was if it was the same thing as witchcraft, why on Earth would you post it in R/S? xP Unless you didn't post it here, in which case disregard that.
Edit: Mario sniped.
I posted it here because Delph had recently complained about how Beyond Dreaming was supposed to contain things at least somewhat sleep related, which my thread wasn't.
01-25-2010, 05:36 AM
Maria92
I personally *at the moment* don't believe it, but some interesting stuff with science has started cropping up, legit or not. I'm going to run some personal experiments. If I get anything at all, my first stop will be at the local laboratory.
EDIT: Screw Delph.
01-25-2010, 05:39 AM
Xedan
Fore warning mario: I yielded no results so far, and most people say it can take weeks to just put out a candle. Months to light an ember.
01-25-2010, 05:42 AM
Maria92
Hahah, I have my entire college career. At the very least, I can still have fun doing this.
Quote:
Zen Fluid Dynamics
Sit in a sunbeam in a dimly-lit room. Light a stick of incense, hold it vertically, then move it upwards and stop suddenly, with a jerk. A perfect smoke-ring will be launched from the burning tip. Move the incense upwards, then suddenly jerk downwards, then repeat. You can launch fast smoke-rings through the center of slow ones, create side-by side rows, etc. In a draft-free room they persist for ages, and soon the air will be full of huge grey thin circles. Contemplate the silent Chaos.
Not sure what this has to do with pyrokinesis, but it sounds like a helluva lot of fun. :D
01-25-2010, 05:42 AM
Hidden
It's more BD than R/S in my opinion.
I was talking to a new member earlier today who's been scientifically researching paranormal stuff. I don't believe in anything paranormal at the moment, but I'm open to different possibilities and I love hearing what other people think and why they think it.
Out of curiosity, what kind of experiments are you going to do?
Edit: Whoa, pyrokinesis? Awesome! One of my online friends believes in that, although from the way she described it it doesn't sound like much fun.
01-25-2010, 05:44 AM
Maria92
Xedan linked me up to some pyrokinesis how-to's. I have always been fascinated with fire, so I thought I would give it a shot. Why not? I've got nothing better to do with my life. :roll:
01-25-2010, 05:46 AM
Xedan
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hidden
It's more BD than R/S in my opinion.
I was talking to a new member earlier today who's been scientifically researching paranormal stuff. I don't believe in anything paranormal at the moment, but I'm open to different possibilities and I love hearing what other people think and why they think it.
Out of curiosity, what kind of experiments are you going to do?
Edit: Whoa, pyrokinesis? Awesome! One of my online friends believes in that, although from the way she described it it doesn't sound like much fun.
Well personally all I've done is try my hand at psychokinesis, pyrokinesis, and hydrokinesis. None worked, but I didn't really persist in my efforts.
01-25-2010, 05:48 AM
Xedan
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mario92
Xedan linked me up to some pyrokinesis how-to's. I have always been fascinated with fire, so I thought I would give it a shot. Why not? I've got nothing better to do with my life. :roll:
By the way, you could also try your hand at chaos magick if you plan on exploring the paranormal. I have a good site to use, though I'm not so crazy about the less-serious face lift if got.
Okay, that link made me burst out laughing, no offense. :laugh:
01-25-2010, 05:51 AM
Hidden
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xedan
Well personally all I've done is try my hand at psychokinesis, pyrokinesis, and hydrokinesis. None worked, but I didn't really persist in my efforts.
Do you think you could give me some links?
Isn't it ironic that we were just discussing that being atheist/agnostic doesn't mean you can't believe in other paranormal stuff?
Edit: Lol Mario.
You guys keep sniping my posts.
01-25-2010, 05:52 AM
Maria92
Hunh...guess you're right. Cool!
EDIT: Hidden, why haven't I added you to my buddy list yet? :shock:
01-25-2010, 05:52 AM
Xedan
Yeah, it has that effect. They don't seem to have much credibility, like one of them sound like it was written by a perverted ten-year old. But you never know.
01-25-2010, 05:53 AM
Hidden
I can't say I'm feeling many credibility vibes coming from that site...
01-25-2010, 05:55 AM
Xedan
Mario, you mind supplying the links?
By the way, 666blacksun is my best remaining site I've found, but it gets WAY out there, and is full of satanic rituals. There's actually pictures from when the guy who made the site hung himself from a tree by his legs with fishing hooks. Very graphic.
...my god, I just lost all credibility in the forums...
01-25-2010, 05:58 AM
Hidden
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xedan
Mario, you mind supplying the links?
By the way, 666blacksun is my best remaining site I've found, but it gets WAY out there, and is full of satanic rituals. There's actually pictures from when the guy who made the site hung himself from a tree by his legs with fishing hooks. Very graphic.
...my god, I just lost all credibility in the forums...
You could've PMed it if you're that worried. :roll:
Edit: There goes my non-double posting streak. Oh well.
01-25-2010, 06:04 AM
Maria92
Oh, well. This thread has become pretty much senseless anyway.
...and I lost credibility more because I paraded around the fact that I'd be doing pyrokinetic experiments in my basement. Ayup, there it goes now. Bye, credibility. :okbyenow: Ah, it was worth it! :D
01-25-2010, 06:05 AM
Hidden
Hehehe, let me know how those experiments go.
01-25-2010, 06:07 AM
Maria92
Sure, no problem. If I get results, first trip will be to a lab. Second trip will be straight home to start a blog. :cheeky:
01-25-2010, 10:56 AM
Carôusoul
Quote:
Originally Posted by hypnocella
Some of those other beliefs help strengthen the concept of God. Angels for instance, lead directly to God.
Yes but that is not what you claimed
You claimed atheism prevents those beliefs.
Which just is not true.
fin.
01-25-2010, 11:22 AM
Scatterbrain
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carôusoul
Yes but that is not what you claimed
You claimed atheism prevents those beliefs.
Which just is not true.
fin.
Atheism doesn't even prevent belief in god, the lack of reasoned arguments does.
01-25-2010, 11:24 AM
Carôusoul
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scatterbrain
Atheism doesn't even prevent belief in god, the lack of reasoned arguments does.
Well to be fair you can't be an atheist who believes in a God can you.
01-25-2010, 11:30 AM
Scatterbrain
What I mean is you don't not believe in god because you are atheist; You are atheist because you don't believe in god.
01-25-2010, 12:36 PM
Carôusoul
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scatterbrain
What I mean is you don't not believe in god because you are atheist; You are atheist because you don't believe in god.
yes indeed
01-26-2010, 12:40 AM
Xedan
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scatterbrain
What I mean is you don't not believe in god because you are atheist; You are atheist because you don't believe in god.
Where as the same is not true for most religions.
They are not a certain religion because they believe in that god, they believe in that god because they are that religion
01-29-2010, 06:33 AM
Serenity
Long post, will spoiler it for scrolling purposes :D
Spoiler for Long post:
I was baptized as a "United" (whatever the hell that means). I've been to church maybe 3 times in my life (twice Christian, for Remembrance Day ceremonies; once Catholic, to accompany a friend). I have a very old and tiny copy of the bible that was given to my mother when she graduated from HS. I tried to read it, but found it incredibly boring (I was 10, mind you).
I never took theology, so bear with me on this... But my parents always gave us the freedom to discover religion for ourselves. When I asked my mother if there was a God, she said yes. I later found out that she only said that to make it easier. I was a bit young to have a lengthy discussion on why she didn't believe in God.
Around grade 6, we did a course on Japanese culture, and I learned a bit about Shintoism. I really liked it.
Around grade 9, I started communing with my sub-conscious. I wanted to figure my beliefs out, because at this point, I was agnostic. I found Western religion in general to be too conflicting. On one hand, people think God is an unforgiving dictator who is about to commit world-wide genocide before I'm 40. On the other hand, people say he's peaceful and gave us free will to figure out our own mistakes, but as long as we accept his love, we'll be A-OK.
Almost all religions seem to pay heed to one true deity above all, and they all have different names for it.
So, in mu communication with my subconscious, I came up with a set of rules that work for me.
That each religion, at its foundation, has a goal for people to live your life and to cause no harm to another human being.
That the ultimate goal is to find love and acceptance for all life on Earth.
That until we realize how to achieve this goal, we'll keep being reincarnated until we do.
That there is no Heaven or Hell. Hell is the continuous reincarnation linked with karma. I truly believe that if you do wrong to people in this life and cause harm, your next life will be worse off.
Heaven is simply the afterlife. It's not in the clouds, it's all around us. Some people call it the astral plane. I believe we are truly in Heaven when we learn what we are meant to, and we can choose whether to reincarnate or become a spirit guide for someone else.
I do not pray to a single deity, because a truly loving deity of the light would not command me to do so. A pure deity would not harbour such vain qualities. They don't need to command worship, because such a thought isn't even necessary. Rather, my "deity" is love. The purest light. All that is good. To love, accept and protect all of Earth's spirits in humans, animals, trees, water, etc.
01-29-2010, 08:17 AM
Hidden
I think what you've done is the perfect way to decide what religion you want to follow. I love the idea of mixing and matching religions, keeping the parts that make sense to you personally and leaving out the ones that don't.
01-29-2010, 04:11 PM
Taosaur
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hidden
I think what you've done is the perfect way to decide what religion you want to follow. I love the idea of mixing and matching religions, keeping the parts that make sense to you personally and leaving out the ones that don't.
I won't call this approach a mistake, as it can be an exploratory phase leading to firmer ground, but those who stick with a New Age hodgepodge beyond adolescence generally end up with something shallow and narcissistic that simply evaporates if life ever puts it to the test, yielding to either full-on conversion or nihilism.
The logical progression from understanding that all religions are human creations, but also all founded on truth, is to realize that any one of them will do, if followed with that truth in mind. In Buddhism, the major schools are called "yana"--vehicles, or vessels. Buddhist masters are generally not too concerned whether you choose their vehicle or another, but nearly all will tell you to choose one and stick with it. If you attempt to cross a stream with each of your hands and feet in a different vessel, it won't take more than a breeze or an itch to put you in the water.
03-27-2010, 07:03 PM
* Diamond Eyes *
Someone once said that if you sat a million monkeys at a million typewriters for a million years, one of them would eventually type out all of Hamlet by chance. But when we find the text of Hamlet, we don't wonder whether it came from chance and monkeys. Then why does the atheist use that incredibly improbable explanation for the universe? Clearly, because it is his only chance of remaining an atheist. At this point we need a psychological explanation of the atheist rather than a logical explanation of the universe. God exists whether or not men may choose to believe in Him. The reason why many people do not believe in God is not so much that it is intellectually impossible to believe in God, but because belief in God forces that thoughtful person to face the fact that he is accountable to such a God. Nobody talks so constantly about God as those who insist that there is no God. A silly idea that good people do not know what temptation means. This is an obvious lie. Only those who try to resist temptation know how strong it is... someone who gives in to temptation after five minutes doesnt know what it would have been like an hour later. Thats why bad people, in one sense, know very little about badness. They have lived a sheltered life by always giving in.People occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. The atheist can appeal to nothing absolute, nothing objectively true for all people, it is just mere opinion enforced by might. The Christian appeals to a standard outside himself/herself in which truth and qualitative values can be made sense of.I believe in Christianity as I believe that the Sun has risen, not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
03-27-2010, 07:50 PM
Universal Mind
Diamond Eyes, the truth is that lots of atheists would love to believe in God. Personally, I would love to believe in a very good God, but the Judeo-Christian-Muslim God is not good. He is a genocidal egomaniac who condones eternal torture. I know atheists who want to believe in God so much that they would rather believe in that one than be atheists. We are atheists because the idea of God does not seem logical to us. That is a fact. Can you back up your extremely broad claim that all atheists want to be atheists just so we can be accountable to nobody? I have seen that mere assertion before, and it is never backed up. It is just what the Christian establishment preaches. Nothing more.
The reason people don't come across Hamlet and think monkeys typed it is that, based on all of our experiences, only humans write plays. Plus, we already learned that Shakespeare wrote it. Universes, on the other hand, are not something we know first hand are created by thinking beings. We have not seen proof of it.
If you think that the existence of something complex has to have been created deliberately by a thinking being, then to be consistent, you have to have the same view of God. God is supposed to be even more complex than the universe. Who created him? If you say nobody did, then you go against your own claim about creations of complex things. So, is the existence of something complex automatic proof of a conscious creator, or is it not?
03-28-2010, 03:07 AM
Maria92
Quote:
Originally Posted by * Diamond Eyes *
Someone once said that if you sat a million monkeys at a million typewriters for a million years, one of them would eventually type out all of Hamlet by chance. But when we find the text of Hamlet, we don't wonder whether it came from chance and monkeys. Then why does the atheist use that incredibly improbable explanation for the universe? Clearly, because it is his only chance of remaining an atheist. At this point we need a psychological explanation of the atheist rather than a logical explanation of the universe. God exists whether or not men may choose to believe in Him. The reason why many people do not believe in God is not so much that it is intellectually impossible to believe in God, but because belief in God forces that thoughtful person to face the fact that he is accountable to such a God. Nobody talks so constantly about God as those who insist that there is no God. A silly idea that good people do not know what temptation means. This is an obvious lie. Only those who try to resist temptation know how strong it is... someone who gives in to temptation after five minutes doesnt know what it would have been like an hour later. Thats why bad people, in one sense, know very little about badness. They have lived a sheltered life by always giving in.People occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. The atheist can appeal to nothing absolute, nothing objectively true for all people, it is just mere opinion enforced by might. The Christian appeals to a standard outside himself/herself in which truth and qualitative values can be made sense of.I believe in Christianity as I believe that the Sun has risen, not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
Thank you for proving your ignorance. :)
03-28-2010, 05:30 AM
Hidden
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mario92
Thank you for proving your ignorance. :)
She does have a pretty avatar though...
03-28-2010, 05:41 AM
StonedApe
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hidden
She does have a pretty avatar though...
Yeah, but how are you gonna quote Nietszche in your sig and then say that christian morality is the way to go? You need to spend some more time staring into that abyss.
03-28-2010, 05:48 AM
Hidden
Quote:
Originally Posted by stonedape
Yeah, but how are you gonna quote Nietszche in your sig and then say that christian morality is the way to go? You need to spend some more time staring into that abyss.
What?
03-28-2010, 07:19 AM
Xedan
We don't think hamlet was written by monkeys because Shakespeare is more likely and can be backed up. God is neither likely or capable of being backed up. In fact, we DON'T know Shakespeare wrote Hamlet. History is not fact any more than gravity. However it is just as likely that Shakespeare wrote it as it is that you'll fall if you jump off a bridge.
And if I came up to you and told you every grain of sand was built by tiny gnomes who were nice enough to give us beaches expecting only praise in return, you wouldn't believe me. However, if ten or a hundred people told you this while you were a child and while you were growing up, you would have no doubt they existed. That is god. Invisible sand gnomes.
The point I was trying to make above, if it wasn't obvious, is that you would never have known about the god of Christianity if you were to rely on only first hand accounts. You base your knowledge of him on a 2000+ year old book that keeps being reinterpreted throughout the years so as to be able to stay relevant. From the very beginning of the book we know it is wrong. That is why every time science proves something, a verse in the bible that got it wrong is made into a metaphor.
And it can be argued that we atheists are taking science at face value too. To an extent this is true. Even if we go all the way back to how a person conducted an experiment, we still are listening to what they say they did. But for the most part, we would come to the same conclusion if we were to do it the same way. But it would be redundant and futile for everyone to believe only what they have proven for themselves. That's why scientists expand on previous theories, or correct what is incorrect. Science is ever expanding, ever updated, and ever refuted. It is only through this process that we can be sure we know what is possible to know.
03-28-2010, 08:10 AM
Darkmatters
Quote:
Originally Posted by sora12
For all I know if God does exist he could be genderless or a female. I'm just used to people around referring to God as a him. :D
This (god being considered masculine) is just one example of how the church has perverted the actual core message of various belief systems and used them to promote their own political agendas. When Michelangelo painted God on the Sistene Chapel ceiling as an old man with buff muscles and a flowing white beard, it was meant as an allegory, like those ancient portrayals of Greek and Roman river deities and wind deities as similar men w/beards, or of Liberty as a woman with one boob hanging out.
But over time people have lost the actual meaning of what religion was supposed to be about, and have come to believe instead n the surface portrayals. Losing a belief in beard-god who hates queers (allegedly) and massacred whole cities because they pissed him off isn't a bad thing. Taking the words of Jesus to heart and pondering what he might have actually MEANT when he said them is a whole different matter... ESPECIALLY if you also read the words of Buddha, and other great religious figures who are associated with actual peace and freedom.
<<< >>>
OOpps!!! I only thought there was 1 page... :panic:
03-28-2010, 04:41 PM
juroara
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkmatters
This (god being considered masculine) is just one example of how the church has perverted the actual core message of various belief systems and used them to promote their own political agendas. When Michelangelo painted God on the Sistene Chapel ceiling as an old man with buff muscles and a flowing white beard, it was meant as an allegory
That single painting forever changed the way people view God! Before the renaissance, in the dark ages, they actually got one thing right. You were not allowed to paint God in anyway shape or form, because such a painting would be a false idol (or a false representation of God). They took this false idol business seriously. There is evidence that many of the artists in the dark ages actually did know their anatomy. But they painted Jesus and other biblical figures stylized because they decided since they have never met these people, it would be wrong to try to paint them photo-realistic.
And that to do so, would create a false idol!
Well, they made plenty of false idols in the renaissance! :shadewink: Who doesn't know what Jesus is 'supposed' to look like?
Btw the God in Michelangelos ceiling was based off the current day Pope.
Hello there. :)
I am interested in knowing when some of you who are Atheist became/ realized you were atheist and or how? (Sorry if I worded the question in a weird way.) Lately, I've been doubting my belief in God. I grew up all my life believing in him and I've never really given a second thought to his existence. So I just wanted to see if anybody went through a similar experience before they became Atheist and stuff like that.
I was in about as deep as one could be; I went to a hardcore pentecostal church about 4 times a week for 7 years, I prayed all the time, spoke in tongues and everything. I thought that all atheists would go to hell and that it was my mission to save them. I believed everything until last year when I first started to question whether god was really there or not.
The main event that made me question my beliefs was when I watched a bit by Joe Rogan with my Christian friend. It was about Noah's ark and how impossible it would be for that story to have actually happened. Most of what he said was really logical so I turned to my friend with wide open eyes and he did the same to me. We both knew what the other was thinking: If this story wasn't true how could we be sure the rest of the bible was true? Thus I began my search for the truth.
I went online everyday from that day forth searching for answers. I researched both sides of the argument for hours on end. Some days I would spend the whole day reading about the fallacies of religion, while on other days I would spend the whole day looking for sound arguments for religion but rarely did I ever find any. After 7 months of this I didn't have to decide whether I believed or not; I don't think I could even will myself to believe anymore even if I wanted to. So now I am an atheist all thanks to Joe Rogan :D.
03-28-2010, 08:25 PM
Insener
Growing up in a country with 'one of the highest level of irreligious individuals in the world' helped quite a bit.
03-29-2010, 07:43 PM
* Diamond Eyes *
The problem here is that many people have a mistaken concept of God. If we conceive of God as physical, anthropomorphic (like man) being, the question of God’s origin is valid. However, such a concept of God is alien to the Bible . Consider the following descriptions of God from the Bible:
John 4: 24
God is a Spirit: ...
Matthew 16:17
... for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my father which is in heaven.
Numbers 23:19
God is not a man, that he should ... ;
Not only is God described as being outside space, but He is also described as being outside of time...
2 Peter 3:8
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
Psalm 90:4
For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.
Psalm 102:27
But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end.
Acts 1:7
...It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his power.
If God is a being that is unlimited in time, and if He has access to every piece of time as if it were now, the question of who created God is an invalid question. When asked “Who or what created God?” we are making the assumption that God was created. If God exists outside of time and space, and if He is the Creator of time and space, He obviously was not created! God began the beginning! This is why He says, “I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last” (Revelation 22:13).
God created time. The statement of Genesis, “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth,” is making reference to the creation of time. The reason that things like heat death, the expansion of the universe, and the depletion of hydrogen do not apply to God is because He is outside of time. God has always been. He did things before time began (see 1 Corinthians 2:7). He not only began time; He will also end it. When time ends, all matter and all mankind will enter eternity—a timeless condition free of the negative things that time brings upon us now.
2 Peter 3:10-11
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness.
Also, how can you explain DNA.. Someone who writes an instruction manual does so with purpose. Did you know that in every cell of our bodies there exists a very detailed instruction code, much like a miniature computer program? As you may know, a computer program is made up of ones and zeros, like this: 110010101011000. The way they are arranged tell the computer program what to do. The DNA code in each of our cells is very similar. It's made up of four chemicals that scientists abbreviate as A, T, G, and C. These are arranged in the human cell like this: CGTGTGACTCGCTCCTGAT and so on. There are three billion of these letters in every human cell!!
Well, just like you can program your phone to beep for specific reasons, DNA instructs the cell. DNA is a three-billion-lettered program telling the cell to act in a certain way. It is a full instruction manual.Why is this so amazing? ....how did this information program wind up in each human cell? These are not just chemicals. These are chemicals that instruct, that code in a very detailed way exactly how the person's body should develop.
Natural, biological causes are completely lacking as an explanation when programmed information is involved. You cannot find instruction, precise information like this, without someone intentionally constructing it.
03-29-2010, 08:12 PM
Universal Mind
The laws of science have always been. They are great, they are impressive, and they are complex, just like the character God. You say God doesn't need a creator. Why do the laws of science?
03-29-2010, 08:38 PM
Loaf
One day I actually gave it some thought. And I decided it was bogus. :cackle:
03-29-2010, 08:54 PM
* Diamond Eyes *
Well, I could ask you the same thing. If you believe that the laws of science have always existed, why not believe that God has always existed? In my opinion, it is a lot more plausible that the earth and the universe had an intelligent creator than believe in the low probability that everything in the universe just happened to come from nothing..
03-29-2010, 08:58 PM
Sornaensis
Quote:
Originally Posted by * Diamond Eyes *
Well, I could ask you the same thing. If you believe that the laws of science have always existed, why not believe that God has always existed? In my opinion, it is a lot more plausible that the earth and the universe had an intelligent creator than believe in the low probability that everything in the universe just happened to come from nothing..
Low probability?
So you would think that it would make more sense that humans constructed the Himalayan mountain range than that they formed through natural processes?
03-29-2010, 09:29 PM
* Diamond Eyes *
How did I imply that? Im talking about the beginning of the universe here.
when you have a large number of independent variables and each of them has a finite probability, the total probability becomes astronomical. If you draw a card from a deck of cards once, the odds of getting an ace of spades is one in 52. The odds of drawing an ace of spades twice in a row back-to-back is one in 2,704 (1/52 x 1/52). The odds of doing it four times in a row is one in 7,311,616. This same technique has to be applied to all of the variables necessary to produce an atom, a planet, life, etc., if the calculation is done on a purely chance basis. The probability figures come up with numbers like one chance in ten to the 800th power! Even famous atheists like Francis Crick and Antony Flew have agreed that chance is not a valid means of explaining these numbers. They suggest that aliens or some other intelligence is responsible, which does not answer the question but just pushes it back one level.
03-29-2010, 09:32 PM
Universal Mind
Quote:
Originally Posted by * Diamond Eyes *
Well, I could ask you the same thing. If you believe that the laws of science have always existed, why not believe that God has always existed? In my opinion, it is a lot more plausible that the earth and the universe had an intelligent creator than believe in the low probability that everything in the universe just happened to come from nothing..
I did not say everything in the universe came from nothing. I said the laws of science have always been. Do you think God came from nothing? We know the laws of science exist. For all we know so far, God is just an idea.
I am talking about parallel concepts in which one involves what has been tested and shown to exist and the other has not. You assume God has always existed and created the universe, but you rule out the possibility that the universe was induced or is manifested by laws of science that have always existed. Why the difference?
Quote:
Originally Posted by * Diamond Eyes *
How did I imply that? Im talking about the beginning of the universe here.
when you have a large number of independent variables and each of them has a finite probability, the total probability becomes astronomical. If you draw a card from a deck of cards once, the odds of getting an ace of spades is one in 52. The odds of drawing an ace of spades twice in a row back-to-back is one in 2,704 (1/52 x 1/52). The odds of doing it four times in a row is one in 7,311,616. This same technique has to be applied to all of the variables necessary to produce an atom, a planet, life, etc., if the calculation is done on a purely chance basis. The probability figures come up with numbers like one chance in ten to the 800th power! Even famous atheists like Francis Crick and Antony Flew have agreed that chance is not a valid means of explaining these numbers. They suggest that aliens or some other intelligence is responsible, which does not answer the question but just pushes it back one level.
With so much stuff in the universe and the principle of order in science, the formation of material order was inevitable. If it hadn't been the current order, it would have been another one.
God is even more complex, right? Tell me about the probability of him.
03-29-2010, 10:03 PM
* Diamond Eyes *
As scientists examine the cosmos, they do not find it to be infinitely old or infinitely big. If the big bang theory is accepted in any of its versions, the universe is finite in both size and age. Textbooks will estimate the number of baryons in the universe as ten to the 78th power, and that is not in the range of the probabilities that exist. The cosmos is not big enough nor old enough to allow chance to be an operating mechanism. Proposals of parallel universes and virtual existence are not supported by evidence and appear to be attempts to avoid the admission of intelligence in the creation. How do the laws of science explain things like the complexity of human DNA..and that humans arent just a body and brain but also have a soul and higher conciousness.. To me it appears that there are more unanswered questions that arise in the assumption that there is no higher intelligence than our own, than to believe that God exists.
03-29-2010, 10:33 PM
Universal Mind
I didn't say the universe has always existed, though maybe it has. I said the laws of science have always existed. Laws of science existing outside of space and time are at the root of our universe. Those laws have always existed.
What do you mean the universe is not big enough or old enough for chance to be an operating mechanism? I said order is a major principle. Order is inevitable. There is a 100% chance of order. You are just taking the order we have and saying there was a low probability of it. You could say that about whatever the order ended up being. There had to be one of some type.
How do I explain something as complex as DNA? Evolution. How do you explain something as complex as God?
Every argument you make for the existence of God can apply just as well to the laws of science, except for one important thing. We know the laws of science exist. Also, the arguments you make about God apply just as well to the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Why not assume its existence? Why not the existence of the Great Pumpkin? The Magic Unicorn? The Staypuff Marshmallow Man?
03-30-2010, 03:03 AM
Darkmatters
Yaveh is not the first god to be called "the Alpha and the Omega". In fact, all the ideas that went into Yaveh's description are not new... they were all used for various and sundry other gods before him, just as Jesus was pretty much an amalgamation of ideas of other prophets and half-human sons of gods before him. This doesn't mean there wasn't a historical Jesus, but that a lot of the mythologies surrounding him are just that - mythologies.
I see no reason why the creator needed to be intelligent. Science pretty much understands how the universe was formed... and I put a lot more stock in that concept than one created by superstitious primitives thousands of years ago. Even if the core ideas of the bible hold some truth, it's a sure bet primitive man who wrote it down in the form that came to be known as "the Bible" interpreted things in ways that made sense to them at the time.
In fact I'd go so far as to say creation myths are a human invention common to all early religions, as are the moralities associated with each religion. There is a core of profound wisdom at the center of each religion, but it's so deeply buried in the dogmatic beliefs and mythologies that it's almost impossible to separate out. In order to do so you need to study various religions and try to find the similarities.
Personally I think Buddhism gets it just about the closest.
03-31-2010, 02:25 AM
Caprisun
Quote:
Originally Posted by * Diamond Eyes *
As scientists examine the cosmos, they do not find it to be infinitely old or infinitely big. If the big bang theory is accepted in any of its versions, the universe is finite in both size and age. Textbooks will estimate the number of baryons in the universe as ten to the 78th power, and that is not in the range of the probabilities that exist. The cosmos is not big enough nor old enough to allow chance to be an operating mechanism. Proposals of parallel universes and virtual existence are not supported by evidence and appear to be attempts to avoid the admission of intelligence in the creation. How do the laws of science explain things like the complexity of human DNA..and that humans arent just a body and brain but also have a soul and higher conciousness.. To me it appears that there are more unanswered questions that arise in the assumption that there is no higher intelligence than our own, than to believe that God exists.
Scientists understand that the space created by the big bang probably does not constitute the entire universe, meaning it could very well be infinite. It probably is infinite. People often mistake our perception of the universe, our "bubble," as the entire universe. It is well accepted among most all physicists that something exists beyond our "bubble," or more accurately, within our bubble, in which case our perception of the of the universe would be expanded past its previous limitations.
03-31-2010, 02:30 AM
Sornaensis
Quote:
Originally Posted by * Diamond Eyes *
How did I imply that? Im talking about the beginning of the universe here.
when you have a large number of independent variables and each of them has a finite probability, the total probability becomes astronomical. If you draw a card from a deck of cards once, the odds of getting an ace of spades is one in 52. The odds of drawing an ace of spades twice in a row back-to-back is one in 2,704 (1/52 x 1/52). The odds of doing it four times in a row is one in 7,311,616. This same technique has to be applied to all of the variables necessary to produce an atom, a planet, life, etc., if the calculation is done on a purely chance basis. The probability figures come up with numbers like one chance in ten to the 800th power! Even famous atheists like Francis Crick and Antony Flew have agreed that chance is not a valid means of explaining these numbers. They suggest that aliens or some other intelligence is responsible, which does not answer the question but just pushes it back one level.
The universe does not function through the drawing of cards from a hat. It is a rigid, deterministic system. Nothing happens spontaneously (Without cause) within the universe.
03-31-2010, 03:30 AM
Maria92
Quote:
Originally Posted by * Diamond Eyes *
Also, how can you explain DNA.. Someone who writes an instruction manual does so with purpose. Did you know that in every cell of our bodies there exists a very detailed instruction code, much like a miniature computer program? As you may know, a computer program is made up of ones and zeros, like this: 110010101011000. The way they are arranged tell the computer program what to do. The DNA code in each of our cells is very similar. It's made up of four chemicals that scientists abbreviate as A, T, G, and C. These are arranged in the human cell like this: CGTGTGACTCGCTCCTGAT and so on. There are three billion of these letters in every human cell!!
Well, just like you can program your phone to beep for specific reasons, DNA instructs the cell. DNA is a three-billion-lettered program telling the cell to act in a certain way. It is a full instruction manual.Why is this so amazing? ....how did this information program wind up in each human cell? These are not just chemicals. These are chemicals that instruct, that code in a very detailed way exactly how the person's body should develop.
Natural, biological causes are completely lacking as an explanation when programmed information is involved. You cannot find instruction, precise information like this, without someone intentionally constructing it.
Evolution. The human genome didn't just spontaneously leap into existence by some incredible miracle; it grew very slowly over billions of years. What is so unfeasible about that? Genes in the genome tell a cell what proteins and compounds to produce. Is it all that hard to imagine that, given the sheer size of the earth and diversity of conditions, some sort of rudimentary early life would develop in a sort of primordial soup, and that that life would find a niche, from which to take root, grow, and evolve? Just because you fail to comprehend something, or are unable to wrap your mind around an idea, does not contribute one iota of evidence for a higher power. For you, DNA is an unexplained phenomenon (though science explains it quite well, and gathers more evidence all the time). There is more evidence for abiogenesis than there is God, and far more for evolution. In terms of evidence, God is roughly on par with the flying spaghetti monster; there is none. Why should God be exempt from logic, just because a large number of people believe in this idea? A few hundred years ago, people everywhere thought the world was flat, and that the earth was at the center of the universe. Questioning is an excellent thing. Reevaluating your beliefs is a good thing. Why do you lack such confidence in science and solutions grounded in reality?
Some would tell me to "have faith." Why is faith good? I'm getting along just fine without it. The world would get along just fine without it. Before you quote bible verses again, I should point out that the bible is an absolutely horrid source of evidence. It is an ever-mutating book of fables written several thousand years ago in a time when sea monsters were still considered a legitimate threat. Furthermore, there is no evidence whatsoever that a higher power wrote the original book, or that the original was ordained from God. For anything to be taken seriously within the book, it requires a suspension of critical thinking in exchange for blind faith. I repeat: why is faith good?
Yes, there are mysteries out there, but they won't be solved by just attributing them to a "higher power" and calling it a day. Unexplained events are unexplained, not the work of a divine being. Show me one reason, one event in the entire history of the world, where under reasonable experimental conditions, anyone has ever shown any reason to believe in a higher power.
03-31-2010, 09:08 PM
* Diamond Eyes *
I dont doubt science. I think science and christianity go hand in hand. I think there are a lot of misconceptions about the bible and science. If God gave us the Bible which tells us about what He did, there cannot possibly be a contradiction. If there is a contradiction, it is either because we have misunderstood the Bible or we have misunderstood scientific evidence. The lesson of the past has been that mankind has misunderstood both and has pitted his human traditions against his bad science, resulting in total confusion. It is bad enough that this has caused religious division and strife. science and faith are symbiotic in nature--each beneficial to the other.The fossils show us the fact that animals have changed.The fact that living things can change is indisputable. In the prehistory of the earth in Genesis ,the earth went through an undated, untimed period in which the resources man would need were produced. They were produced by the original materials being created and then being altered by natural processes so that man could find them. If we free ourselves from human traditions and creeds and look open-mindedly and fairly at the evidence, we can see that science and the Bible are friends--not enemies. Bad science and bad theology have caused an unnecessary conflict with enormous damage being done to both science and theology. If we look at these two areas as if they exist in a positive symbiotic way, we can see that the written word revealed in the Scriptures and the created message in the world around us have the same message and compliment one another.
Many Christian scientists embrace both their Christian faith and scientific theories of cosmology and evolution. That is, they accept the factual, testable aspects of these theories, but they also acknowledge a real and tangible role for God in the process.
Faith starts from knowledge, even if it reaches beyond it, and its character as faith is not destroyed by its association with knowledge. There can be history without faith. There were some who saw Jesus, heard him teach and even witnessed him perform miracles who did not believe in him. Can there be faith without history?. Even if Jesus did not teach all of those things we think he taught, even if he did not perform all of those miracles recounted in the Gospels, and even if he was not raised from the dead, people could still believe in him. But the problem is that such a faith is empty. It is a false faith. As Paul said: "If Christ has not been raised, then our proclamation has been in vain and your faith has been in vain. ... lf Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins" (1 Cor. 15:14, 17).
We need a rational, historical basis for our faith, so that it will not become a subjective, individual feeling which is not guided by any objective criterion. History, then, prevents faith becoming fantasy.
03-31-2010, 09:11 PM
Universal Mind
Woes, don't forget about this...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Universal Mind
I didn't say the universe has always existed, though maybe it has. I said the laws of science have always existed. Laws of science existing outside of space and time are at the root of our universe. Those laws have always existed.
What do you mean the universe is not big enough or old enough for chance to be an operating mechanism? I said order is a major principle. Order is inevitable. There is a 100% chance of order. You are just taking the order we have and saying there was a low probability of it. You could say that about whatever the order ended up being. There had to be one of some type.
How do I explain something as complex as DNA? Evolution. How do you explain something as complex as God?
Every argument you make for the existence of God can apply just as well to the laws of science, except for one important thing. We know the laws of science exist. Also, the arguments you make about God apply just as well to the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Why not assume its existence? Why not the existence of the Great Pumpkin? The Magic Unicorn? The Staypuff Marshmallow Man?
04-01-2010, 12:20 AM
Caprisun
Quote:
Originally Posted by * Diamond Eyes *
I dont doubt science. I think science and christianity go hand in hand. I think there are a lot of misconceptions about the bible and science. If God gave us the Bible which tells us about what He did, there cannot possibly be a contradiction. If there is a contradiction, it is either because we have misunderstood the Bible or we have misunderstood scientific evidence.
How do you classify a certain interpretation of the bible as a misconception when you are encouraged to create your own interpretation? There are literally hundreds of interpretations, maybe you misunderstood. I'm no scientific expert, but I can clearly see that the bible and science do not go hand in hand. There are many things in the bible that are not scientifically possible, and there are many things in the bible that are in direct contradiction with scientific theories.
04-01-2010, 02:51 AM
Maria92
Quote:
Originally Posted by * Diamond Eyes *
How did I imply that? Im talking about the beginning of the universe here.
when you have a large number of independent variables and each of them has a finite probability, the total probability becomes astronomical. If you draw a card from a deck of cards once, the odds of getting an ace of spades is one in 52. The odds of drawing an ace of spades twice in a row back-to-back is one in 2,704 (1/52 x 1/52). The odds of doing it four times in a row is one in 7,311,616. This same technique has to be applied to all of the variables necessary to produce an atom, a planet, life, etc., if the calculation is done on a purely chance basis. The probability figures come up with numbers like one chance in ten to the 800th power! Even famous atheists like Francis Crick and Antony Flew have agreed that chance is not a valid means of explaining these numbers. They suggest that aliens or some other intelligence is responsible, which does not answer the question but just pushes it back one level.
First, it isn't purely chance. Second:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sound
Just going to cite some numbers off wikipedia.
The universe is about 8,678 x 10^23 km wide (that's 867 800 000 000 000 000 000 000 kilometres.) (disclaimer: this number is quite uncertain. The theories about the size of the universe rages from 13,7 billion light-years to 180 billion light-years... but doesn't really matter. There still isn't an adjective strong enough to describe how big it is.)
In this space, there is about 3-7 x 10^22 stars (30-70 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 / 30-70 sextillion stars), organized in about 80 000 000 000 galaxies.
Someone look at these numbers and tell me chance has nothing to do with it.
Originally Posted by * Diamond Eyes *
I dont doubt science. I think science and christianity go hand in hand. I think there are a lot of misconceptions about the bible and science. If God gave us the Bible which tells us about what He did, there cannot possibly be a contradiction. If there is a contradiction, it is either because we have misunderstood the Bible or we have misunderstood scientific evidence.
Interpret that. Do you not see the absurdity of taking a 2,000 year old book at face value, when virtually every iota of evidence gathered since either contradicts it or shows it to be unnecessary?
Quote:
In the prehistory of the earth in Genesis ,the earth went through an undated, untimed period in which the resources man would need were produced. They were produced by the original materials being created and then being altered by natural processes so that man could find them.
Which begs a few questions: One, why in all the cosmos are men so special that an entire freaking planet needs to be built especially for them? Two, why don't you just find sword blades lying around? Why must iron ore be smelted and undergo complex processes to form alloys with other metals that also must be smelted? Can't flint arrowheads be explained by natural geological processes, or did some creator intentionally scatter obsidian all over in the hopes that one day, people may use it? God is wholly unnecessary.
Quote:
Even if Jesus did not teach all of those things we think he taught, even if he did not perform all of those miracles recounted in the Gospels, and even if he was not raised from the dead, people could still believe in him. But the problem is that such a faith is empty. It is a false faith. As Paul said: "If Christ has not been raised, then our proclamation has been in vain and your faith has been in vain. ... lf Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins" (1 Cor. 15:14, 17).
We need a rational, historical basis for our faith, so that it will not become a subjective, individual feeling which is not guided by any objective criterion. History, then, prevents faith becoming fantasy.
Again, why is faith good? I have asked this question several times and received no answer. So what if people one day wake up and realize that xtianity is a joke? Will the world come to an end? Will the idea of "sin" even exist? It sounds more like a cover-your-ass-to-not-go-to-hell tactic than anything else. In all likelihood, xtianity is a hollow faith. Why haven't we heard a peep out of God since biblical times? Why is the Bible the only book speaking of Christ's magical resurrection? If you saw a dude die and come back to life, you'd probably make a note of it and get around to writing a book. Alas, though, all we have to go on is a single book, a single source of relatively unknown origin, that has been rewritten and modified all throughout history. You cannot seriously expect the bible as it is today and how it was almost two thousand years ago to bear any sort of similarity. Rewriting history to affirm your own beliefs is ridiculous.
04-01-2010, 03:00 AM
Darkmatters
Quote:
Even if Jesus did not teach all of those things we think he taught, even if he did not perform all of those miracles recounted in the Gospels, and even if he was not raised from the dead, people could still believe in him. But the problem is that such a faith is empty. It is a false faith. As Paul said: "If Christ has not been raised, then our proclamation has been in vain and your faith has been in vain. ... lf Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins" (1 Cor. 15:14, 17).
We need a rational, historical basis for our faith, so that it will not become a subjective, individual feeling which is not guided by any objective criterion. History, then, prevents faith becoming fantasy.
Only according to the christian church.
The Dalai Lama was flabbergasted when he first began to visit the western world to discover how prevalent the insidious idea of original sin is here. He asked how you can love anyone, including your god, if you don't first love yourself? And why would a god need to first instill sin into his subjects in order to bully them into believing in him to receive salvation? It's a catch 22. The Buddhist idea is that we're born in perfection - which is the natural state.
You were not born a sinner... you only become one by believing the idea of original sin foisted upon you by the Bible.
04-01-2010, 11:46 AM
Lucidness
We are 98% apes.
04-01-2010, 03:35 PM
SpecialInterests
What's the other 2%? Fish? Rhinoceros? Bacteria?
04-01-2010, 05:41 PM
Caprisun
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucidness
We are 98% apes.
We are 100% apes.
04-01-2010, 06:43 PM
Universal Mind
:chuckle:
04-01-2010, 10:34 PM
* Diamond Eyes *
Dark Matters:
It does say in the bible that you're supposed to love yourself.
"The foremost is, 'Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God is one Lord; and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.' "The second is this, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these." (NAS, Mark 12:28-31)
And God didn't instill sin, satan did.
Mario 92:
Many claimed contradictions in the Bible turn out to be translation difficulties and do not exist in the original manuscripts.The Bible was not written by Americans for an American audience. Every culture has its own traditions which affect the meanings of phrases and even individual words. Many claimed contradictions in the Bible turn out to be cases where American values and understandings are forced on Hebrew or Greek phrases.
One problem is that the original manuscripts were not in English; and translation then becomes an issue
And why is faith good? Our faith results in eternal life (salvation) given to us by God. "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life" (John 3:16). Unless our faith accomplishes eternal life, we do not have the right kind of faith. God never intended for Christians to come to their faith to escape problems in life. Nowhere are we promised we will not have problems, sickness, death, or will not suffer violence. What we are promised is that we will have a way of escape provided for us before we reach the breaking point , but that way of escape may be death. Because life here on earth is just a tiny part of the big picture, and only God can see the grand scheme of things. This is another reason why faith is good.
There are Some Things God Will Not Do. One thing God will not do is to violate the promises He has made. God has told us, "It is appointed unto man once I die, and after that to face judgment." God has promised us as humans that we will reap what we sow (Galatians 6:7). Sometimes we want to engage in destructive behaviors and then have God step in and stop the natural consequences of those behaviors. Not only does this apply to a situation like a smoker who gets lung cancer after smoking for 30 years, but it also applies to a political system that teaches racial superiority and rejects the principles of morality that God has given us.
And, no I don't have all the answers, no one does. God didn't intend for people to know everything.. there are some things for just God to know. But most of the answers are in the bible, you just have to search.
04-01-2010, 10:55 PM
Universal Mind
Diamond Eyes, why are you ignoring my posts that are addressed to you? We had a discussion going, and you started flat out ignoring my posts. What's going on here?
04-01-2010, 11:14 PM
* Diamond Eyes *
I know, it's just that other people got involved in the conversation and it's hard to keep up with all the questions, without it taking up all of my time. The thing is I don't know a lot about The Laws Of Science, and don't know how or understand how they could have always existed... I just know God has always existed because that's what the bible says, and that's my reference. I'll try to look more into it when I have time.
04-01-2010, 11:33 PM
Universal Mind
You don't have to understand the specifics of the laws of science to answer what I asked you. I don't even know what the specific laws are. I just know that if our universe and our time line began at some point, something not confined to time had to have been behind the creation of our universe. I don't see strong evidence that it was a thinking being, so I conclude that laws of science that are timeless/eternal were at the root. So, you rule that out and conclude it was God simply because The Bible says it?
04-01-2010, 11:38 PM
mindwanderer
Well, I was raised christian... but as I got into my pre-teen years I got interested in spirituality outside of religion. Eventually my exploration of spirituality led to my interest in philosophy, which in order to properly practice requires critical thinking... and as you should know, critical thinking and any sort of religion often don't mix. They're like a cat from Bronx and a cat from L.A.
04-02-2010, 01:29 AM
Maria92
Quote:
Originally Posted by * Diamond Eyes *
Mario 92:
Many claimed contradictions in the Bible turn out to be translation difficulties and do not exist in the original manuscripts.The Bible was not written by Americans for an American audience. Every culture has its own traditions which affect the meanings of phrases and even individual words. Many claimed contradictions in the Bible turn out to be cases where American values and understandings are forced on Hebrew or Greek phrases.
One problem is that the original manuscripts were not in English; and translation then becomes an issue
And why is faith good? Our faith results in eternal life (salvation) given to us by God. "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life" (John 3:16). Unless our faith accomplishes eternal life, we do not have the right kind of faith. God never intended for Christians to come to their faith to escape problems in life. Nowhere are we promised we will not have problems, sickness, death, or will not suffer violence. What we are promised is that we will have a way of escape provided for us before we reach the breaking point , but that way of escape may be death. Because life here on earth is just a tiny part of the big picture, and only God can see the grand scheme of things. This is another reason why faith is good.
There are Some Things God Will Not Do. One thing God will not do is to violate the promises He has made. God has told us, "It is appointed unto man once I die, and after that to face judgment." God has promised us as humans that we will reap what we sow (Galatians 6:7). Sometimes we want to engage in destructive behaviors and then have God step in and stop the natural consequences of those behaviors. Not only does this apply to a situation like a smoker who gets lung cancer after smoking for 30 years, but it also applies to a political system that teaches racial superiority and rejects the principles of morality that God has given us.
And, no I don't have all the answers, no one does. God didn't intend for people to know everything.. there are some things for just God to know. But most of the answers are in the bible, you just have to search.
Assertions and more assertions, using only a very poor source as a reference. First off, if the bible as we know it today faced translation difficulties, how can we be sure if anything at all is what it originally was? How do we know people didn't just slip in the bit about the afterlife later? How do we even know if the original actually contained the words of God? Do you not see the ridiculousness of placing your faith in an ancient book and holding it to be true? Do we have one single iota of empirical evidence for an afterlife? It's a nice belief, sure, but to hold it to be absolute truth is ludicrous. I see no reason whatsoever why humans should be entitled to eternal salvation, and not one shred of evidence to show that we are.
This bit right here:
Quote:
Unless our faith accomplishes eternal life, we do not have the right kind of faith.
I find troubling. If this is the case, how do you know that your faith is the "right one" that is going to achieve salvation?
Quote:
Originally Posted by * Diamond Eyes *
I know, it's just that other people got involved in the conversation and it's hard to keep up with all the questions, without it taking up all of my time. The thing is I don't know a lot about The Laws Of Science, and don't know how or understand how they could have always existed... I just know God has always existed because that's what the bible says, and that's my reference. I'll try to look more into it when I have time.
See above. Why do you have such confidence in the bible? Where did that originate?
04-02-2010, 03:11 AM
♥Mark
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mario92
Thank you for proving your ignorance. :)
It's easy to accuse someone of ignorance. I hardly see that as being better than being ignorant. If you're going to make such an accusation, at least explain why. A post like this leads me to think that either you don't have an explanation and therefore you're just making baseless insults, or that you don't want to give an explanation and therefore you're just making a drive-by insult and don't actually want to participate in discussion. If ignorance bothers you, try being constructive and educate people when they say things which reveal their ignorance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkmatters
When Michelangelo painted God on the Sistene Chapel ceiling as an old man with buff muscles and a flowing white beard, it was meant as an allegory, like those ancient portrayals of Greek and Roman river deities and wind deities as similar men w/beards, or of Liberty as a woman with one boob hanging out.
I have a hard time believing that these ancient people had a deeper, purer or more abstract conception of their gods and didn't literally believe there was a bearded man throwing down lightning bolts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by juroara
That single painting forever changed the way people view God! Before the renaissance, in the dark ages, they actually got one thing right. You were not allowed to paint God in anyway shape or form, because such a painting would be a false idol (or a false representation of God).
I like this idea that any representation of god is inherently going to be false. It implies that everyone has it wrong and no one actually knows what god is or even looks like (or for that matter, if he it has an appearance). And considering a person's understanding of god is an abstraction (ie. a mental representation) of the actual* thing, well...
Quote:
Originally Posted by * Diamond Eyes *
He did things before time began
How exactly is something "done" outside of time?
Quote:
Originally Posted by * Diamond Eyes *
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise
As a theif in the night; with great noise.
Quote:
Originally Posted by * Diamond Eyes *
Well, just like you can program your phone to beep for specific reasons, DNA instructs the cell. DNA is a three-billion-lettered program telling the cell to act in a certain way. It is a full instruction manual.Why is this so amazing? ....how did this information program wind up in each human cell?
Careful! If you start searching for honest answers to those questions you might become a scientist.
Quote:
Originally Posted by * Diamond Eyes *
How do the laws of science explain things like the complexity of human DNA..
Do you have the slightest appreciation for how big the universe is? You keep saying "but it's all so improbable! Take the example of life on Earth. It is highly improbable that life will form at any place in the universe. That may be why the vast majority of it has none at all (so far as we can see, at least.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by * Diamond Eyes *
If God gave us the Bible which tells us about what He did, there cannot possibly be a contradiction. If there is a contradiction, it is either because we have misunderstood the Bible or we have misunderstood scientific evidence.
Wow. It must be easy to defend your points when there is absolutely no way they could be wrong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by * Diamond Eyes *
The Bible was not written by Americans for an American audience.
Shouldn't the Bible be for everyone? Why is it so easily corrupted by translations, interpretations and cultural relevance? Why does the Bible seem so unconcerned with much of anything past the time its respective books were written? Why are such specific laws and rules set forth for ancient people as it applies to ancient life, yet so much is totally inapplicable to modern times? The simplest answer is that it was written by ancient people for ancient people and is about ancient people. They did not and could not have known how technology, culture, language and the world in general would change. The arguments you could make to support these texts could be applied to any set of myths, really.
*actual actuality not guarenteed.
04-02-2010, 05:48 AM
Darkmatters
Quote:
Originally Posted by * Diamond Eyes *
Dark Matters:
It does say in the bible that you're supposed to love yourself.
"The foremost is, 'Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God is one Lord; and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.' "The second is this, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these." (NAS, Mark 12:28-31)
The basic point of original sin is this:
Everyone is born a sinner. Destined for an eternity of suffering in hell. That's what will happen to EVERYONE... unless you accept these terms....
So, as children, we're brought into the world already stained... besmirched with mortal sin before we even take our first breath. And we CANNOT save ourselves from it. Only accepting Jesus as our savior can save us.
See... it's THE BIBLE tat tells us we're born in sin! So, if you don't accept the precepts of the bible, then you're born pure and free... no need to redeem your coupon to be saved.
This tells me that the CHURCH is using some of Jesus' teachings, and ADDING ON dogma of its own - in order to control the masses. That's what the church is about. They frighten people into believing THEIR dogmas.
It's like those vacuum cleaner salesmen who knock on your door and as soon as you let them in they dump dirt on your carpet, then you have to let them do a demonstration of their product in order to get it clean. Before he got there the carpet was CLEAN! :uhm:
Does the vacuum cleaner salesman do what he does because he loves you?
To me a religious system that tells you you're BORN IN SIN AND MUST BE CLEANSED is not interested in people loving themselves... it needs them to believe they're unclean and not complete so that they feel they NEED that religion in order to become cleansed and pure.
Believing you're born a sinner is NOT loving yourself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by * Diamond Eyes *
And God didn't instill sin, satan did.
Wait for it...
Wait for it...
Who made Satan? :D
And who, while supposedly OMNIPOTENT and OMNISCIENT, allows Satan to be his bad-boy self and run his little torture garden? Hmmmmmn? :cheeky:
04-02-2010, 05:59 AM
Darkmatters
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkmatters
When Michelangelo painted God on the Sistene Chapel ceiling as an old man with buff muscles and a flowing white beard, it was meant as an allegory, like those ancient portrayals of Greek and Roman river deities and wind deities as similar men w/beards, or of Liberty as a woman with one boob hanging out.
Quote:
I have a hard time believing that these ancient people had a deeper, purer or more abstract conception of their gods and didn't literally believe there was a bearded man throwing down lightning bolts.
That might be true for Zeus and the other major pagan deities, but I was referring to the Four Winds and the Rivers, as depicted on maps of the ancient world.
But originally the Hebrews did NOT allow any depiction of god. They referred to religious icons as Graven Images, and there was a heavy penalty for anyone using them. I think the idea was that any painting or statue rendering god as human or anything else would only lower the idea of god, because no image could ever do Him justice. In fact, if I remember right, I think true believers in Yahweh were supposed to go around knocking over any icons belonging to other religions.
04-02-2010, 06:09 AM
Dannon Oneironaut
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkmatters
Who made Satan? :D
And who, while supposedly OMNIPOTENT and OMNISCIENT, allows Satan to be his bad-boy self and run his little torture garden? Hmmmmmn? :cheeky:
04-02-2010, 06:11 AM
Maria92
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark75
It's easy to accuse someone of ignorance. I hardly see that as being better than being ignorant. If you're going to make such an accusation, at least explain why. A post like this leads me to think that either you don't have an explanation and therefore you're just making baseless insults, or that you don't want to give an explanation and therefore you're just making a drive-by insult and don't actually want to participate in discussion. If ignorance bothers you, try being constructive and educate people when they say things which reveal their ignorance.[/SIZE]
It was a jab, I will admit, but I couldn't have stated things any better than UM did:
Quote:
Diamond Eyes, the truth is that lots of atheists would love to believe in God. Personally, I would love to believe in a very good God, but the Judeo-Christian-Muslim God is not good. He is a genocidal egomaniac who condones eternal torture. I know atheists who want to believe in God so much that they would rather believe in that one than be atheists. We are atheists because the idea of God does not seem logical to us. That is a fact. Can you back up your extremely broad claim that all atheists want to be atheists just so we can be accountable to nobody? I have seen that mere assertion before, and it is never backed up. It is just what the Christian establishment preaches. Nothing more.
The reason people don't come across Hamlet and think monkeys typed it is that, based on all of our experiences, only humans write plays. Plus, we already learned that Shakespeare wrote it. Universes, on the other hand, are not something we know first hand are created by thinking beings. We have not seen proof of it.
If you think that the existence of something complex has to have been created deliberately by a thinking being, then to be consistent, you have to have the same view of God. God is supposed to be even more complex than the universe. Who created him? If you say nobody did, then you go against your own claim about creations of complex things. So, is the existence of something complex automatic proof of a conscious creator, or is it not?
Not my brightest moment, but when someone is that flat-out wrong, it's kinda tricky to not be a bit smug. Since that post, I have actively engaged in debate in a more...respectful fashion. My sincerest apologies.
Diamond Eyes, my challenge still stands:
Quote:
Show me one reason, one event in the entire history of the world, where under reasonable experimental conditions, anyone has ever shown any reason to believe in a higher power.
04-05-2010, 09:47 PM
* Diamond Eyes *
Who made Satan? :D
And who, while supposedly OMNIPOTENT and OMNISCIENT, allows Satan to be his bad-boy self and run his little torture garden? Hmmmmmn? :cheeky:[/QUOTE]
Satan was one of Gods angels. His angel name was Lucifer. Satan was given to him after he had fallen. Satan means (adversary, enemy, accuser).He rebelled because he wanted more power than God, and tried to dethrone God. That is why he Got kicked out of heaven, and one third of the angels fell with him, which are now demons. Satan and his demons are still active today, trying everything they can to get people to follow them instead of God and the angles. God has given everyone free will, which is where the choice comes in. It is everyone's own choice to follow him.
Mark 75,
by done outside of time, I meant that God is time.. hes not confined to time. Hes in a dimension that we as humans aren't capable of understanding. We perceive time here on earth because were in the 3rd dimension. God is outside of that.
And the bible, yes it was written by about 40 men, and over a period of about 1600 years, but it was all inspired by God. From different accounts of his life and his teachings. Before Jesus died, there was a different system that God had in place, which was a set of laws for people to obey. God showed himself in different ways, because he hadn't yet sent his son to forgive our sins. God actually spoke to people and did miracles and signs because that's what that generation needed. But then God sent his son Jesus, to die for everyone's sins. So that now in the New Testament, all you have to do is confess your sins and repent and you will be saved..all the laws from the old testament aren't relevant anymore.
The bible had to be translated because it was written in Hebrew, so everyone could read it. What I meant is that there could be a few small translation issues, but the main points are still there. Everything you need to know is still there. Its a guide line of how you're supposed to live.
Mario 92
As I said above, large miracles arent needed anymore, because now we have the bible to tell us everything about God that we need to know. God did miracles in the Old Testament because the people didnt have a bible or Jesus yet. But God still reveals himself. Most people try to dismiss it as something else. Some examples are..
Nature, God has revealed certain truths about Himself through nature or the created order. Psalm 19:1-6 states, “The heavens are telling of the glory of God; and their expanse is declaring the work of His hands.” Nature tells everyone about God’s glory and that everything is made by Him. Romans 1:18-21 declares, “For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.” According to this text, nature reveals that God exists and that He is powerful.
Providence, God reveals Himself through His moment-by-moment control of the world.
Conscience, God has revealed Himself to everyone through an internal sense of right and wrong. Romans 2:14-15 states that every person has the Law of God “written in their hearts.” This internal compass that alerts us to what is right and wrong points to the Ultimate Lawgiver who determines right and wrong.
Dreams, Dreams were often used by God to communicate information (Gen. 20:3; 31:11-13, 24; 40-41). God sent Jacob the dream of the ascending and descending angels on the latter (Gen. 28:10-15). God also gave King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon important dreams about the coming empires of human history. Daniel interpreted the dreams.
Also, once someone become a christian, they will recieve the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit was given to live inside those who believe in Jesus, in order to produce God's character in the life of a believer. In a way that we cannot do on our own, the Holy Spirit will build into our lives love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.
The Holy Spirit also performs a function for non-Christians as well. He convicts people's hearts of God's truth ; how righteous Jesus is -- He died in our place, for our sins; and God's eventual judgment of the world and those who do not know Him. The Holy Spirit tugs on our hearts and minds, asking us to repent and turn to God for forgiveness and a new life.
04-06-2010, 01:09 AM
♥Mark
Quote:
Originally Posted by * Diamond Eyes *
by done outside of time, I meant that God is time.. hes not confined to time. Hes in a dimension that we as humans aren't capable of understanding.
If humans are incapable of understanding it, how is it that that you know that he exists in another dimension? Can thoughts and intentions exist outside of time? Does god have thoughts or intentions? Can you explain why it is more likely that an incomprehensible god exists as opposed to simply it being a nonsensical idea?
Quote:
Originally Posted by * Diamond Eyes *
And the bible, yes it was written by about 40 men, and over a period of about 1600 years, but it was all inspired by God.
How can you tell that it was inspired by god?
04-06-2010, 06:13 AM
Maria92
Quote:
Originally Posted by * Diamond Eyes *
Satan was one of Gods angels. His angel name was Lucifer. Satan was given to him after he had fallen. Satan means (adversary, enemy, accuser).He rebelled because he wanted more power than God, and tried to dethrone God. That is why he Got kicked out of heaven, and one third of the angels fell with him, which are now demons. Satan and his demons are still active today, trying everything they can to get people to follow them instead of God and the angles. God has given everyone free will, which is where the choice comes in. It is everyone's own choice to follow him.
Why doesn't god just smite his ass and have done with it? "Hey, folks, sorry to barge in, but I just smited Satan. Welcome to paradise. Can you guys maybe sort of love me now? I know I was kind of a grumpy bastard all those years ago, and many have died at my hands, but Satan is dead. Hugs?"
Quote:
And the bible, yes it was written by about 40 men, and over a period of about 1600 years, but it was all inspired by God. From different accounts of his life and his teachings. Before Jesus died, there was a different system that God had in place, which was a set of laws for people to obey. God showed himself in different ways, because he hadn't yet sent his son to forgive our sins. God actually spoke to people and did miracles and signs because that's what that generation needed. But then God sent his son Jesus, to die for everyone's sins. So that now in the New Testament, all you have to do is confess your sins and repent and you will be saved..all the laws from the old testament aren't relevant anymore.
Am I the only one who finds it really sort of scary that he's treating the bible as absolute fact? I can't think of shakier grounds to base an entire belief system on. There is no solid evidence that the bible is factual, accurate, or literal. None at all.
The hypocrisy is extremely disturbing. Basically, the bible says you can be a total prick your entire life, but as long as you confess your sins on your death bed and accept Jesus, you go to paradise. You can kill and steal and do horrible, unspeakable acts, but if you just exploit the magic loophole, you get into heaven. Riiiiiiiight.
Quote:
The bible had to be translated because it was written in Hebrew, so everyone could read it. What I meant is that there could be a few small translation issues, but the main points are still there. Everything you need to know is still there. Its a guide line of how you're supposed to live.
How can you be sure? When the bible was translated into English, some many thousands of words were added to the English language, as words did not exist for many of the things in the original bible. It was one of the largest mass addings to the English language in history. How do we even know if the meanings match? :hrm:
Quote:
As I said above, large miracles arent needed anymore, because now we have the bible to tell us everything about God that we need to know. God did miracles in the Old Testament because the people didnt have a bible or Jesus yet. But God still reveals himself. Most people try to dismiss it as something else. Some examples are..
Oh, the bible explains all? Then why are there so many misunderstandings/contradictions/multiple interpretations? I think a couple of well-placed miracles would clear some stuff up, personally. You know, part the ocean, stop a tsunami, etc. With over 16% of the population being nonreligious, and almost no two people having the exact same interpretation of the bible, I think a miracle is in order.
Quote:
Nature, God has revealed certain truths about Himself through nature or the created order. Psalm 19:1-6 states, “The heavens are telling of the glory of God; and their expanse is declaring the work of His hands.” Nature tells everyone about God’s glory and that everything is made by Him. Romans 1:18-21 declares, “For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.” According to this text, nature reveals that God exists and that He is powerful.
That is delightfully vague, and surprise, uses the bible as the only source of evidence. Must I really repeat that the bible is an absolutely terrible source of evidence? Consider:
Quote:
Our modern technology has proved the Bible wrong. That means that if there is a God, he didn't write the Bible and the Bible is not his word. If the Bible were the word of God and the Bible is wrong, then God is wrong. And if God can't be wrong, then the Bible, which is wrong, can't be the word of God.
If we were to believe the Bible, then we would have to believe the Earth was created before the stars, which is the wrong order. If the stars were created 10,000 years ago, we wouldn't be able to see stars that are more than 10,000 light years away. That's because if a star was further away than 10,000 light years, the light from that star wouldn't have got here yet. Our galaxy alone is about 100,000 light years across. If the Bible were true, we wouldn't be able to see but 1/10th the way across our own galaxy. We surely wouldn't be able to see other galaxies or galactic clusters or know that the universe is expanding.
I find it interesting how so many selectively quote the bible and reinterpret it in whatever way necessary to fit the times. "Alright, so creation is out, but all that other crap can stay. Except the old testament. Let's get rid of that, too." :?
If you're going to take the supposed word of god as fact, shouldn't it really be an all-or-nothing deal? And if the bible was merely inspired by god, but written by men who were dead-wrong about observable reality, then how can you expect that they were right about anything else, especially the things we cannot observe (the afterlife, rules to get into heaven, etc)?
Quote:
Providence, God reveals Himself through His moment-by-moment control of the world.
Really? Because, you know, I'm not seeing any of this control. Can you show me how exactly he controls every moment and every aspect of the world? You know, as opposed to atoms traveling on predictable courses, reacting with other atoms, and adjusting their courses accordingly?
Quote:
Conscience, God has revealed Himself to everyone through an internal sense of right and wrong. Romans 2:14-15 states that every person has the Law of God “written in their hearts.” This internal compass that alerts us to what is right and wrong points to the Ultimate Lawgiver who determines right and wrong.
Internal compass? Interesting, considering morality is relative. Look at the planet. No two cultures are exactly alike, no two share the same sense of "right" and "wrong." We are products of the societies in which we grew up. If you are taught that murdering is a-okay, you aren't going to wake up one day and suddenly realize that, hey, murdering is wrong.
Quote:
Dreams, Dreams were often used by God to communicate information (Gen. 20:3; 31:11-13, 24; 40-41). God sent Jacob the dream of the ascending and descending angels on the latter (Gen. 28:10-15). God also gave King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon important dreams about the coming empires of human history. Daniel interpreted the dreams.
Care to cite some nice, credible evidence outside the bible? Something that clearly goes beyond coincidence/the capabilities of the human mind? There is still much we don't know about the brain. Why is God necessary to send us information in our dreams? If he really wanted to send a message, you think he'd pick something more credible than mental images that are easily forgotten or brushed aside.
Quote:
Also, once someone become a christian, they will recieve the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit was given to live inside those who believe in Jesus, in order to produce God's character in the life of a believer. In a way that we cannot do on our own, the Holy Spirit will build into our lives love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.
More assertions. If you interview Christians-turned-atheist and visa versa, I think you'll find that both sets of people live pretty darn satisfactory lives. And self-control? There is a much higher proportion of Christians in prison than there are atheists. Doesn't seem like those people had very good self control at all...nor patience, peace, joy, or anything else that may have kept them from committing a crime worthy of punishment at a state or federal level.
Would you care to cite a source that shows, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that Christians live happier lives than the rest of the world, and that this is due to the holy spirit in particular?
Quote:
The Holy Spirit also performs a function for non-Christians as well. He convicts people's hearts of God's truth ; how righteous Jesus is -- He died in our place, for our sins; and God's eventual judgment of the world and those who do not know Him. The Holy Spirit tugs on our hearts and minds, asking us to repent and turn to God for forgiveness and a new life.
Not once have I ever had this feeling. Care to cite a source or two detailing this phenomenon?
04-06-2010, 06:54 AM
Loaf
Fine. I'll admit it. I'm Jesus. My father isn't cooking up some big plan. He just got bored of playing with Earth and went to go fuck about with some other planet.
04-07-2010, 08:14 PM
* Diamond Eyes *
First off, no its not only confessing your sins and you're home free.. its believing that Jesus is the son of God and that he died on the cross for our sins..and repenting and turning away from sin. You cant just say forgive me then keep on sinning.. you have to genuinely want to change.
And if the bible is a bunch of BS, then where did it come from? Why are there 66 manuscripts just laying around talking about this supposed God and Jesus who really never existed? Because the Bible details historical events, its truthfulness and accuracy are subject to verification like any other historical document. Through both archaeological evidences and other writings, the historical accounts of the Bible have been proven time and time again to be accurate and true. In fact, all the archaeological and manuscript evidence supporting the Bible makes it the best-documented book from the ancient world.
Talking about miracles, say that the ocean did part today..don't you think humans would find some way to discredit it as a miracle and say something like, oh, it was caused by a tsunami, or an earthquake, or a tidal wave, or ..some unknown natural occurrence. If a tsunami was stopped..oh it was luck that the storm died down before it crashed into the land. If someone had cancer then mysteriously it was gone...well it was luck, or some occurrence in the human body that we don't yet know about...If there was some crazy sign in the sky..well, its a government conspiracy, or aliens...If someone heard God talk to them or saw God as a vision, then it would just be a hallucination, or drugs, or some sort of mental disorder. The rainbow is a sign from God, but.. its just the suns rays refracting light through millions of raindrops and a coloured arc appears in the horizon..and I'm not saying that's not true..I'm saying just because science explains it, doesn't mean it didn't come from God.. Science is a tool to explain the world and universe that God created. That doesn't mean that God didn't put it all into place.. and rain, is a form of precipitation in which water falls back to the earth as a liquid...Yes, science can explain it, that doesn't mean that God didn't put the earth and the clouds there for the rain to fall out of..anyways, you get my point.
So exactly what kind of sign or miracle would it take for an atheist to believe that God exists? And what if the shroud of Turin was proved to be the cloth that Jesus was wrapped in? well that doesnt prove that he was the Son of God right? It was just some guy that got hung on the cross..
And if the earth and universe were just created by chance..wouldn't that mean that everything is pretty much pointless? We came into existence by pure luck..there's really no reason for us being here..nothing you do on earth really makes any sort of difference or impact in the long run. You just die and then there's nothing after. The baby that your wife borned isn't a miracle, its just some sort of evolution, but there's no real reason for the baby to be here on the earth..it just kinda happened... There is no higher power that gives us a sense of right and wrong..so wouldn't that mean that anything goes? wouldn't the earth be pure chaos if there was no right and wrong? People could do anything, and get away with it.
04-07-2010, 08:52 PM
Bonsay
Quote:
Originally Posted by * Diamond Eyes *
And if the earth and universe were just created by chance..wouldn't that mean that everything is pretty much pointless? We came into existence by pure luck..there's really no reason for us being here..nothing you do on earth really makes any sort of difference or impact in the long run. You just die and then there's nothing after. The baby that your wife borned isn't a miracle, its just some sort of evolution, but there's no real reason for the baby to be here on the earth..it just kinda happened... There is no higher power that gives us a sense of right and wrong..so wouldn't that mean that anything goes? wouldn't the earth be pure chaos if there was no right and wrong? People could do anything, and get away with it.
Yes and no...
First off, if we are "just an accident" (which we are) that would mean that existence and everything is just "mysterious", and only pointless if your brain percieves it so.
Yes, things just happen. Why would it be any other way? I mean is there a way to break your existence and peek around it, to even be able to comprehend and define it? As far as we know, thoughts, emotions, concepts, values, ideas of "higher power" are all signals transmitted in your brain, some of which, in the case of self awareness, percieve their own existence.
A sense of right or wrong? Just another though process that evolved because it could. But these thoughts have nothing to do with reality in the sense of "a higher power made them". Things that can think and feel emotions, will have a sense of right and wrong, things that can't (like a coconut that occasionaly "decides" to end a life) don't. So yeah, that means - anything goes. If you decide to kill people, that's your decision. It just might not fit right with many, who will deem it immoral, and then there would be consequences.
"wouldn't the earth be pure chaos if there was no right and wrong? People could do anything, and get away with it."
I don't know where you live, but Earth is in chaos the last time I checked. And it's in chaos even when there is right and wrong at least in certain places and in certain forms. People do anything and they do get away with it. If you're refering to some type of injustice by that last part of the sentence, then as I said: We humans are the ones who percieve and dish out justice. So "getting away with it" just depends on the circumstances, whether somebody will be there to serve justice or not.
04-07-2010, 09:25 PM
♥Mark
Quote:
Originally Posted by * Diamond Eyes *
And if the bible is a bunch of BS, then where did it come from? Why are there 66 manuscripts just laying around talking about this supposed God and Jesus who really never existed?
Gee, good point. A tornado probably blew through and it just formed itself. A lot of your Bible stories are just rebranded pagan ones. The reason that there are "so many" is because a bunch of them are just stolen, or are simply common themes. Regardless, the amount of books you write about something has nothing to do with how true it is. This is just an appeal to popularity.
Quote:
Originally Posted by * Diamond Eyes *
Because the Bible details historical events, its truthfulness and accuracy are subject to verification like any other historical document. Through both archaeological evidences and other writings, the historical accounts of the Bible have been proven time and time again to be accurate and true. In fact, all the archaeological and manuscript evidence supporting the Bible makes it the best-documented book from the ancient world.
Which archeological evidence supports your idea of god, exactly? I don't think anyone doubts that some of the things written in the Bible are accounts of factual events. Certainly there is some history mixed in with the mythology, however this serves only to dilute the history, not give credibility to the mythology.
Quote:
Originally Posted by * Diamond Eyes *
The rainbow is a sign from God, but.. its just the suns rays refracting light through millions of raindrops and a coloured arc appears in the horizon..
Dang skeptics.
Quote:
Originally Posted by * Diamond Eyes *
and I'm not saying that's not true..I'm saying just because science explains it, doesn't mean it didn't come from God.. Science is a tool to explain the world and universe that God created. That doesn't mean that God didn't put it all into place.. and rain, is a form of precipitation in which water falls back to the earth as a liquid...Yes, science can explain it, that doesn't mean that God didn't put the earth and the clouds there for the rain to fall out of..anyways, you get my point.
I get your point, but where exactly do you see room for god here? If you understand how rain works and why rainbows happen, why do you insist that god "put it all in place"? How do you know he put it in place?
Quote:
Originally Posted by * Diamond Eyes *
And if the earth and universe were just created by chance..wouldn't that mean that everything is pretty much pointless? We came into existence by pure luck..there's really no reason for us being here..nothing you do on earth really makes any sort of difference or impact in the long run. You just die and then there's nothing after. The baby that your wife borned isn't a miracle, its just some sort of evolution, but there's no real reason for the baby to be here on the earth..it just kinda happened... There is no higher power that gives us a sense of right and wrong..so wouldn't that mean that anything goes? wouldn't the earth be pure chaos if there was no right and wrong? People could do anything, and get away with it.
Allow me to respond to your rhetorical questions with some of my own. Suppose the Earth and universe were created by chance and that everything is "pretty much pointless" and you knew there was no god. How would you behave? Would you suddenly become a vicious, violent savage and steal and kill without a second thought? Would the idea of an absence of god suddenly turn you into a sociopath? Would you just stop caring about your friends, family and yourself?
Think about it. This is a common argument religious people like to give, but it's really pretty silly. First of all, I would suggest that most of your morals and values have a social and personal basis. There is no divinity required to understand the benefits of cooperation. Why do you stop at a red light? Is it because you will be punished if you don't? Or is it also because you know that if you don't stop it will be dangerous for you and others? And to take it further, that if we all ran red lights we would collectively destroy a method of cooperation that serves to keep us all safe. In the abscence of god, friendship doesn't evaporate. Why do you not kill your friends? Is it only because you will be punished? Or is it also because you like them and you don't want them to die?
What worries me about this type of argument isn't what it says about me, it's what it says about the people who make it. The implications seem to be that you only really care about "right" or "wrong" because you know there is someone looking over your shoulder judging you based on your choices. To suggest that the threats or promises from a god or religion is the reason we should cooperate is shallow, selfish, dishonest and misses the point entirely. It is especially so when you're completely unable to meaningfully show that your god even exists. It really does make you seem, well, like a sociopath.
But to tell you the truth, I really don't believe that you think like that. I like to think that most people, including most religious people, don't. I think your beliefs about god are largely tacked-on to your existing beliefs about the universe, morality and people and that the beliefs themselves don't deviate much from mine or from people in general. Rather your god is sort of a garnish to make the dish more appealing. Refering back your example again, you hold the [secular] belief that rainbows are caused by the refraction of sunlight, but also you add on top of that (superfluously and without explanation) that god is the source of rainbows. Likewise with my assumption that you would not kill your friends because you like them and don't want them to die. Again (and excuse me if I'm being too presumptuous) any notions of religious morality are superfluous in the same way. Religion is unnecessary.
But all of this is entirely beside the point. The point is that there is no god. To argue that people "need" to believe in god is not to argue that god exists.
If you don't want to read or respond to this long post, that's okay, but I would still like a reply to these questions:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark75
If humans are incapable of understanding it, how is it that that you know that he exists in another dimension? Can thoughts and intentions exist outside of time? Does god have thoughts or intentions? Can you explain why it is more likely that an incomprehensible god exists as opposed to simply it being a nonsensical idea?
How can you tell that it was inspired by god?
04-07-2010, 10:26 PM
Loaf
Quote:
Originally Posted by * Diamond Eyes *
And if the bible is a bunch of BS, then where did it come from?
I am pretty sure there was evidence the bible was not written by anyone who had witnessed the events first hand. Its like there being a fire downtown, and you having to report on it even though you weren't there.
04-07-2010, 11:42 PM
* Diamond Eyes *
Originally Posted by Mark75
If humans are incapable of understanding it, how is it that that you know that he exists in another dimension? Can thoughts and intentions exist outside of time? Does god have thoughts or intentions? Can you explain why it is more likely that an incomprehensible god exists as opposed to simply it being a nonsensical idea?
How can you tell that it was inspired by god?
Lol, well if God is Omniscient and Omnipotent wouldn't it only make sense that he would be outside of our understanding here on earth? Isn't that what the characteristics of God would be? If God was a human here on earth, then he wouldn't be God. Like I said, time is something that is perceived by humans..If God isn't confined to time, wouldn't that mean that hes in a different dimension? I don't know if thoughts and intentions exist outside of time... I would think that God has thoughts and intentions.. If he did then yea I guess they do exist outside of time. I don't know %100 that God exists..but I believe that he does. Do you know %100 that he doesn't exist? Maybe there isn't solid evidence that he exists, but there isn't solid evidence that he doesn't exist either.
04-07-2010, 11:58 PM
Loaf
There isn't solid evidence that he exists. But there isn't solid evidence he doesn't exist. Quite right.
I need a lot of evidence of his existence to dedicate my life and my beliefs to him. But I don't need a lot of evidence that supports the theory he doesn't exist, for me not to believe in him, especially since logically its more likely he doesn't exist.
Everyone is always saying God has a plan that we don't know of yet and blah blah. Just sounds like excuses to make up for the fact he doesn't do anything because he doesn't exist.
04-08-2010, 12:48 AM
♥Mark
I'm not sure you know what your god even is. Can you describe it? What is it like and why does it do the things it does?
04-08-2010, 01:45 AM
Loaf
God doesn't exist, because there is no purpose or need for him in this universe. If he does exist, he is useless.
Heaven is just a story to make us feel a little better about death. Hell is just a way to scare people into not doing bad things on Earth.
04-08-2010, 01:59 AM
Portalboat
Hey, and don't forget about the Dead Sea Scrolls...
04-08-2010, 08:15 PM
* Diamond Eyes *
Its the Trinity, which is ( The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit). God, which created the universe and earth..sent his son ( Jesus) to earth to be as a human on earth to spread the word and interact on a human level. He had 12 Apostles that he appointed to help him spread the word.. and make followers (Disciples) to further spread the word. Then Jesus died on the cross to die for our sins, and he went back to God. The Holy Spirit is what you recieve once you become a christian ( then you are also a disciple ), and are appointed to spread the word. Like I said, God is everywhere at all times. He interacts in peoples lives even if you dont necessarily realize it. Hes a spirit, not a physical being.
04-08-2010, 11:16 PM
Bonsay
Quote:
Originally Posted by * Diamond Eyes *
God has given everyone free will, which is where the choice comes in. It is everyone's own choice to follow him.
Can you please define free will. How does it work?
Do thoughts just pop out of nothing, just like a cosmic accident? If they do, than why are we "free willed people" the way we are? Why think anything specifically at all? It's obvious to anybody who can add 2+2=1 that thoughts didn't just pop out of nowhere, but were determined. An obvious example is among the millions who are indoctrinated into christianity, islam, hinduism, given different values, morals etc. We are determined, proven by simple science innumerable times by now.
Therefore... If thoughts arrise from the brain and are both part of the immensly complex causal chain of events presumably starting (as far as we can see) with the big bang. That makes them as determined and as "free" as the planets circling around stars. I am curious to hear where in this causal link does free will jump in? How you intend to supply any evidence for it? And at the end of the day, how does it fit with your idea of sin, if everything lies upon the possibly illusory concept of free will.
04-08-2010, 11:24 PM
Loaf
Quote:
God has given everyone free will, which is where the choice comes in. It is everyone's own choice to follow him.
So what, he performs a few miracles, then does nothing for decades and decades, expecting everyone in the future to follow along with it because way in the past a bunch of gullible people saw Jesus perform a few party tricks?
Well, I'm convinced. :cackle:
04-13-2010, 08:18 PM
* Diamond Eyes *
Yea, free will is a pretty tough subject to touch on.. If God is all knowing, then he must know what choices people will make? It implies that not only has God always known what choices individuals will make tomorrow, but has actually determined those choices. That is, by virtue of his foreknowledge he knows what will influence individual choices, and by virtue of his omnipotence he controls those factors. By observing that God exists outside of time, and therefore, his knowledge of the future is exactly the same as his knowledge of the past and present. Just as his knowledge of the past does not interfere with man's free will, neither does his knowledge of the future. One analogy is that of time travel.. The time traveller, having returned from the future, knows in advance what x will do, but while he knows what x will do, that knowledge does not cause x to do so: x had free will, even while the time traveller had foreknowledge; However, one objection raised against this analogy is that if x truly has free will, he may choose to act otherwise when the event in question comes to pass, and therefore the time traveller (or God) merely has knowledge of a possible event: even having seen the event, there is no way to know with certainty what x will do; Further, the presence of the time traveller, may have had some chaotic effect on x's circumstances and choice, absent when the event comes to pass in the present..
I think that there are different paths predestined...our actions will chose which path we go down..So in a sense we do still have free will.
04-13-2010, 11:50 PM
Bonsay
Quote:
Originally Posted by * Diamond Eyes *
Yea, free will is a pretty tough subject to touch on.. If God is all knowing, then he must know what choices people will make? It implies that not only has God always known what choices individuals will make tomorrow, but has actually determined those choices. That is, by virtue of his foreknowledge he knows what will influence individual choices, and by virtue of his omnipotence he controls those factors....
This is all fine. What you described is one important thing and something I would agree upon. But what is even more important is my question on what exactly free will is, how do I know I have it, how can I prove it, and if it exists how does it interact with the universe.
The whole point of free will as most people see it, I think, is that there is a source... that's it. There is a source that directs. This source, apparently acts externally and is not influenced. If you disagree with this you throw out the purpose and only meaningful component of the "free-willed soul", reducing us to beings determined by the universe, with only the illusion of free will. (This really is very complicated, for the most part because people never define it, so it floats around jumping one way or another, but whatever.)
So what is free will. Everybody takes it for granted and it's obvious, but I really don't get it. Especially with the knowledge we have gained with science on the matter of the human mind. The idea of free will is basic responsibility - A choice was made, someone made it. For responsibility to have any value at all, it must be connected to our experience of ourselves - mainly our perception of, well doing something. In a causal system responsibility has no meaning, because things are determined. Is it really the asteroids fault for killing the dinosaurs or is it the gravity...something else perhaps? Things go from ...->A->B->C etc. Free will can only exist with the human notion of percieved self awarness and actualization. Because the human consciousness "feels" the making of the choice "out of nothing".
The point I'm trying to make is that thoughts don't come out of nothing and we know this. Therefore the idea of hell & heaven is all about sending determined souls with determined choices to determined places. It's all so senseles and IMO stupid to be taken seriously. I mean... I'm perfectly aware that this could just be a metaphysical way of throwing the shiny apples in the shiny box and the rotten ones in the shitty box as dictated by some "metaversal Walmart legislation" (God). If this is the case, then I guess it's just the infinitely worse situation of squishing some bugs thinking "too bad for the ant, life sucks". Ooooh yes... the major religious views don't even give us - the rotten apples - a chance to die and be used as fertilizer. No, no, they are being punished! How dare they be rotten! The bastards must suffer for ever! And to that I say...I didn't ask to be born. And if it all really is about cause and effect (as opposed to me just poping out of nowhere and be responible for the spontaneous incarnation I had no part in) then I deserve no punishment as much as the "saved ones" deserve no grace.
My thoughts are basically that we live in this universe where things interact and seem to have a strong causal relationship (let's leave quantum mechanics interpretations out of this for now, so it's pretty much absolute). What would a "smaller" causal system inside the grand causal system - the cosmos - look like? My claim is that it would manifest as a consciousness with the illusion of free will. The reason we're even debating this complicated topic now is because our thought experiments on time travel or precognition and it's implications just do not compute. Mashing up determinism directly together with free will just doesn't make sense for a consciousness that percieves itself seperately from everything else, especially as the source of decisions and thus free will. But we are a part of the universe. :sunflower::meditate::peace:
I hope I got some of my thoughts across well enough.
04-14-2010, 06:41 AM
Maria92
Just for fun:
God is not all-powerful as he cannot build a wall he cannot jump
04-16-2010, 08:00 PM
Sisyphus50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mario92
Just for fun:
God is not all-powerful as he cannot build a wall he cannot jump
I like busting out the 'a rock so big he can't lift it' one myself. Personally I find that line of argument to be philosophically unfulfilling, since it's just relating to a non-corporeal, body-less Christian God.
But I guess the core of the point is that the term god is so loaded, in some cases overloaded because once you give an entity omniscience and omnipotence you quickly find situations where the immovable object meets the unstoppable force, you divide by zero and Things Go Badly (tm).
04-21-2010, 01:15 AM
age1983
Nice thread. Hopefully i'm not going too off topic, but it all reminded me of a writer like no other: Bertrand Russell,
" If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is an intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense. If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time."
05-02-2010, 08:02 PM
Sekhmet
I never became an athiest.
I was born one.
Fun fact: so is every human being in existence.
05-03-2010, 09:08 AM
Tara
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sekhmet
I never became an athiest.
I was born one.
Fun fact: so is every human being in existence.
True dat, true dat.
05-03-2010, 10:28 AM
♥Mark
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sekhmet
I was born one.
So you're saying atheism is for babies.
05-03-2010, 04:13 PM
Sekhmet
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark75
So you're saying atheism is for babies.
All humans are born athiest.
No one knows god or becomes religious until it is taught to them. Even after being exposed to religiion, babies and small children will only copycat behaviour from their caretakers in order to please them. Their minds have no concept of god.
05-03-2010, 11:26 PM
Tara
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark75
So you're saying atheism is for babies.
Babies like YOU!
CRY SUM MOAR.
05-04-2010, 12:02 AM
♥Mark
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sekhmet
No one knows god or becomes religious until it is taught to them.
Just like no one knows to not stick a screwdriver into an electrical outlet until it's taught to them. You're not really making much of a case for atheism, here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moose
Babies like YOU!
CRY SUM MOAR.
Q _ Q
05-04-2010, 12:33 AM
Sekhmet
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark75
Just like no one knows to not stick a screwdriver into an electrical outlet until it's taught to them. You're not really making much of a case for atheism, here.
Sticking a screwdriver into an electrical socket has tangible results which can be measured and observed in reality - whereas believing in an invisible sky fairy does not.
05-04-2010, 12:51 AM
♥Mark
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sekhmet
Sticking a screwdriver into an electrical socket has tangible results which can be measured and observed in reality - whereas believing in an invisible sky fairy does not.
I demand an empirical demonstration!
05-04-2010, 01:08 AM
Tara
Because Mark is so dissatisfied with the answer I quoted, I'll post something new. Isn't that nice of me? :cookiemonster:
I didn't grow up learning about religion or spirituality. I knew a little bit about native beliefs, but that was it. I didn't grow up with atheism either, though.
Without realizing it, I learned biology due to my love for wildlife and then the other sciences when they were taught in school. Slowly, I began to learn about other beliefs and because the more scientific side of the argument made sense to me, atheism seemed the way to go, but I never put much thought into religion until a few years ago when I discovered the internets. Then my ideas about the world became more concrete and I discovered non-theistic philosophies like Buddhism and LaVeyan Satanism.
That's the gist of it.
05-05-2010, 09:09 PM
User
I became an Atheist around age 17. Being heavily indoctrinated slowed down the process. As soon as I realized that life goes on, minus divine intervention, I considered myself an Atheist. Although I wrestled with the thought, I couldn't fight the fact that religion is nonsense.
05-07-2010, 01:56 AM
LRT
Atheist beliefs:
First there was a bunch of nothing and a cosmic egg, and then there was the big bang. Nothing caused it, and nothing happened before it, because there was no time. But nothing started time. It just... started itself. Because things are known to just start themselves, right? Ya, it happens all the time. Anyway, it just happened, and purely by chance, everything worked out so you're sitting there reading this. But it's all chance. Really.
05-07-2010, 05:13 AM
Spartiate
Quote:
Originally Posted by LRT
Atheist beliefs:
First there was a bunch of nothing and a cosmic egg, and then there was the big bang. Nothing caused it, and nothing happened before it, because there was no time. But nothing started time. It just... started itself. Because things are known to just start themselves, right? Ya, it happens all the time. Anyway, it just happened, and purely by chance, everything worked out so you're sitting there reading this. But it's all chance. Really.
Are you implying that creationism is more logical?
05-07-2010, 05:32 AM
thegnome54
Quote:
Originally Posted by LRT
Atheist beliefs:
First there was a bunch of nothing and a cosmic egg, and then there was the big bang. Nothing caused it, and nothing happened before it, because there was no time. But nothing started time. It just... started itself. Because things are known to just start themselves, right? Ya, it happens all the time. Anyway, it just happened, and purely by chance, everything worked out so you're sitting there reading this. But it's all chance. Really.
Are you implying that you expect reality to behave in ways which are obvious and make good sense to you without requiring much thought?
05-07-2010, 05:44 AM
Maria92
Quote:
Originally Posted by LRT
Atheist beliefs:
First there was a bunch of nothing and a cosmic egg, and then there was the big bang. Nothing caused it, and nothing happened before it, because there was no time. But nothing started time. It just... started itself. Because things are known to just start themselves, right? Ya, it happens all the time. Anyway, it just happened, and purely by chance, everything worked out so you're sitting there reading this. But it's all chance. Really.
Ah, typical...mate, you really ought to look into things a bit more before flying off like that. :shakehead2:
First off, by definition, an atheist is one who simply does not believe in the existence of a god or gods. That's it. Really. And you can't seriously tell me that some badass sky fairy is any better than "just chance." I should point out that "just chance" is only one of an infinitely large number of possibilities, and it would be arrogant to claim that you know exactly what happened and how it happened. In truth, we don't know, and it is unlikely that any shall know within our lifetime, or any lifetime for many years to come, if ever. For all we know, the universe could have been created by creatures similar to humans that were playing around with a particle accelerator and destroyed themselves in the process. "Just chance" isn't as implausible as it may seem at first glance. Literally anything could have created the universe, or, it could have spontaneously popped into existence for reasons we cannot comprehend. Claiming that intelligent design must be the truth or far more plausible than any other theory is arrogance and close-mindedness at its pinnacle. You know no more of creation than I do, I can assure you of that.
05-07-2010, 11:11 AM
Astral
And an invisible god who judges us (apparently) and created this whole universe in one week is more logical? We have scientific explanation which can be observed physically, unlike God...
05-07-2010, 04:29 PM
Bonsay
Quote:
Originally Posted by LRT
Atheist beliefs:
First there was a bunch of nothing and a cosmic egg, and then there was the big bang. Nothing caused it, and nothing happened before it, because there was no time. But nothing started time. It just... started itself. Because things are known to just start themselves, right? Ya, it happens all the time. Anyway, it just happened, and purely by chance, everything worked out so you're sitting there reading this. But it's all chance. Really.
Please show me citations of this "scientific theory" of yours and a scientifically enclined atheist who actually believes what you just wrote... But you probably won't, because all you people do is make a strawman and run away from truth. Ah, ignorance is bliss, I bet you think you're pretty smart and witty.