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Those are some really cool ideas with the cold water. I may be looking into that myself. By the way, I've obtained a copy of Buzz: The Science and Lore of Alcohol and Caffeine. I don't know if it will shed any light on the effect of the brain especially while dreaming but it should be interesting. I'll report back if there is anything useful. :D
I think that I first picked up about the water reflex from a related thread or two here on DV somewhere?
Basically someone was experimenting with breathing or going underwater, etc. Taking cold baths was mentioned also I think.
I noticed the thread last year which was about the use of water to help gain lucidity - except I've done a quick search and I cannot find it! :(
I did try splashing cold water on my forehead (for over 20 sec) during WBTB last year where I noticed that it became a 'dreamsign' which was incubated in a couple of dreams I had at the time! :)
So basically when we do this induction method we must not forget to RC? :lol:Quote:
I did try splashing cold water on my forehead (for over 20 sec) during WBTB last year where I noticed that it became a 'dreamsign' which was incubated in a couple of dreams I had at the time! :)
I'd never really thought of it as a 'method' as such whatsoever, so by all means try it.Quote:
Originally Posted by NyxCC
The main reason I was splashing cold water on my forehead (during WBTB) is more often than not I would have a bit of a headache building up. (Although I did read that other thread afterwards last year, later on regarding LD.)
The cold water helped soothe the discomfort and pain as I couldn't really take painkillers on an empty stomach as they made me feel sick, etc.
I guess I did it fairly often that at one point I noticed it in a couple or so dreams I had at the time.
TL;DR - If the action (or method) of doing this incubates into your dream, then yes, by all means RC! :)
Date: July 7th
Dose: A mug of straight black espresso.
Supporting Supplements: 1000mg Taurine. Prebed: 3mg Melatonin, 50mg B6
WBTB/dose time: 4:00AM
Technique: MILD
Lucid: Hell yeah!
Comments: The quality and success of this dream is much like my initial results. I was very pleased but the following insomnia is really bad now. It's been about an hour since I woke up so hopefully I can lay back down for a WILD. I did have some restless legs issues during the first half of the night. Sometimes B6 will do that do me during times that I am more prone to it.
Mr. Hugs The Firecracker Eater - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views
Dose: 1 bag green tea (WBTB)
Supporting Supplements: Prebed: 100mg 5-HTP, 500mg B5; WBTB: 2xGalantamind (8mg galantamine, choline, B5), 600mg Alpha-GPC, 3 bags peppermint tea, 200mg L-theanine
Bedtime: 11:00PM
WBTB wake time: 3:45AM
Dose Time: 3:45AM
Technique: DILD (?) / DEILD
Lucid: Yes! (Two DILDs (?) + 1 DEILD)
I think that these dreams were DILDs, although I'm just not completely sure on the first one. Raising the caffeine just a bit does seem like a viable option, but so long as I'm hitting lucids with this combo I probably won't mess with it.
Still, it'd be cool to hit some WILDs again. Caffeine clearly seems to help DILDs as well (certainly in my experience, a lot of present-day accounts, and Xanous' trials back in the day.) But WILD seems even more perfect for caffeine.
But yeah, I came very, very close to a WILD this morning. I felt myself going under and just couldn't help myself... I got really excited! I could even feel my heart rate jump up and thought, "Ah well, I blew that..." That's not a problem of too little caffeine. That's a technique and emotional control issue, I'm afraid!
The lucids:
Sandwiches for Skeptics - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views
Dive Bomber in Darkness - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views
DOSE: About half the caffeine in ur premium cup of coffee
WILD
JULY 8th
NO ADDED SUPPLEMENTS JUST CAFFEINE
I drank a redbull In the morning but no caffeine after that intell after i went to bed.3 and 1/2 hours after bed on my WBTB the coffee we have is about half the caffeine then ur leading cup of coffee I drank 1 cold cup and chugged. I stayed awake for about 15 20 min. Give or take. Then I layed there for a long time I think I would have reached lucidity quicker if I dident have the "swallows" but then I had 3 WILD Lucid chains and 1 FA were I became lucid as well :-) my girl said she will save me 1 cup of coffee for my WBTB every night..... It took about In hour and a half of sleep from me so I will b going back to bed earlyer tonight so I still get my 7 hours I need...... The caffeine gave me the boost I needed to stay focused well my body fell asleep!!!!
Date: July 9th (AM)
Dose: 2 bags green tea
Supporting Supplements: 4000MG L-Glutamine, 400MG L-Theanine
Prebed: 3mg Melatonin, 25ish mg B6
WBTB/dose time: 3:50AM
Technique: Mantra
Lucid: No
Comments: I woke at some point for with no recall. It was a gradual awakening and the feeling of returning to my physical body was much like wakening from a lucid. However, I suspect that since I actually woke naturally for once from a vivid dream (that I forgot to record) that I many not have been back into the REM period at this point. I think I must have awakened at the usual 45-60min after dose. I stayed still not moving or opening my eyes but I quickly fell non-lucid. I had poor execution of MILD and just said some mantra before passing out.
About 2.5hrs after dose I had a very vivid and violent dream where the antagonist was stabbed in the throat with something like a fireplace poker then changed to a knife blade on the end like a spear. I watched the man sputter and gasp as he died slowly and painfully. I began to pity him and felt emotionally sick to my stomach.
I usually don't have dreams like this and I can't help but wonder if this combo was the cause for the violent dream since this was my first time with it.
Hey peeps! If you don't mind I would love it if both current and future participants could include a little more information. I know it's a lot of info so if it's too much then don't worry about it, no big deal. I'm basically changing my posting format to help me understand things like tolerance, right dosage, and amount of sleep. So It'll probably look something like this from now on.
Dose:
Supporting Supplements:
Prebed Supplements:
Current Average Daily Intake: (CADI?)
Amount of Caffeine during previous day:
Bedtime:
WBTB time and length:
time of dose: 3:50AM
Morning wake time:
Technique:
Lucid:
Insomnia/loss of sleep:
Roger that, Xanous. I'll go with the new format.
Do you think you'll take another crack at hitting the glutamatergic pathway again (with the L-glutamine / L-theanine combo)? I was really hoping you'd get a better result than I would. I wound up doing less dreaming and being sort of anxious and jumpy throughout the morning. :whyme:
Oh hey Wurlman, do you happen to know how many milligrams of caffeine were in the coffee you had? That's cool if not, but you can't blame me for being interested in 4 lucids off of pure caffeine with no supporting supps. :D
Thank you. I also added "Insomnia/loss of sleep:" tag too. It's all suggestion, of course, but thanks for playing along. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by CanisLucidus
I'll probably try that combo again sometime but maybe without caffeine. Plus I'd really like some L-aspartic acid soon. I just hope that kind of gory dream is not the norm. :?
BTW Wurlman. I'm not sure you should have coffee every night. I know experience that you will wear yourself but going to bed earlier, like you said, may compensate for that. Just be careful and be nice yourself. :cheeky:
EDIT: All this makes me wonder and maybe I've read it someplace but it seems all lucid dreaming is mind literally awake while dreaming. Perhaps it's caffeine's effect on the mind at the right moment that is waking us up in our dreams. Hmmm.:-?
Yea I dident this morning from working all day and not getting good rest thank u for ur concern....., i like the new formate sorry if I dident do it right lol I had to edit about 4 times
Dose: Cold Espresso from 2.5 tablespoons coffee grounds. (150-250mg?)
Supporting Supplements: 2000mg Taurine
Prebed Supplements: Not sure if it counts but 1 shot vodka @ 7PM
CADI: Early Morning Espresso or Cappuccino (about 4tbs coffee grounds, raw milk, stevia)
CDD: Cappuccino @ 6:30AM and 1 cup regular coffee @ 9:30Am
Bedtime: 10:15PM (Hard time sleeping so probably 10:45PM)
WBTB time and length:4:00AM up only long enough to chug cold coffee and say a few affirmations
Time of dose: 4:00AM
Morning wake time: 5:10AM
Technique:MILD to WILD
Lucid: Micro
Insomnia/loss of sleep: Took about 30 to 40 min to fall back to sleep then woke at 5:10AM wanting to DJ. It was close enough to wake up time that I didn't bother fighting wakefulness again.
Total sleep: 5.25 hours pre-sleep. 0.5 hours post-sleep. 5.75hrs total.
Comments: I can't recall any other dreams except for the lucid part. I had a very convincing FA and did an in dream WILD but I woke up before I got very far. I could be wrong but it felt very much like this 30min or so was mostly nREM. Then my dream was cut short by peak caffeine wakefulness. It's hard to hit that sweet spot sometimes. I wish I had a way to measure my REM cycles!
In-Dream WILD (Micro) - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views
A WORD OF CAUTION
I haven't looked too deeply into this but is sees that taking caffeine and then lying down can cause heart palpitations and therefore might cause a slight increase for heart problems. If you have any medical conditions with your heart you may not want to do this. I have been warned by a family member who is a nurse and while I think she is overly concerned, I think it's good to keep this in mind. I've only noticed an increase in heart rate upon waking once since I have been watching out for this. Of course it could have just been excitement anyway. I feel that I, myself am in no real danger but wanted to warn you all. If anyone has anything to add to this then feel free.
Palpitations When Lying Down
Ok good deal. No you're fine, dude. It was only a suggestion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wurlman
UPDATE
Ok I spent the past two days doing hard strenuous research on the effects of caffeine on the brain. Or maybe I just listened to a book on my PDF reader. :lol: Well the book I mentioned before, Buzz, gave me a few things to consider here but not as much as I had hoped. It was a pretty broad and didn't say much about sleep and dreaming BUT there are a few things I can share. By the way, a lot of this from memory so hopefully I recall everything correctly.
Mechanism in a Nutshell
Humans have 4 types of Adenosine receptors. The caffeine molecule is closely similar to the Adenosine molecule and is able to effectively masquerade as one. Once it reaches the Adenosine receptor it is able to alter the function and block it. In the brain Adenosine acts like "brakes" and controls the slowing down neurorecptors. Caffeine does not actually make a person awake but actually blocks these receptors as effectively as putting a brick under the brake peddle preventing you from slowing down.
All of that seems fine, but he thing that gets me excited is that caffeine increases ACh. However, I worry about serotonin increasing as as well. What exactly are the levels of each one? Do they negate each other? I am not sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikipedia
So depending on levels of serotonin and ACh in the brain at the time, as well as the caffeine dosage and effect, this may explain the hit and miss as well as the 1 hour time window I seem to have until peak. I've noticed several times that either the dream gets cut short or there seems to be very little dream time at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by livestrong.com on Serotonin
Cognition
According to Buzz, there have been studies that seems to suggest that caffeine is helpful in monotonous data driven tasks or task that require greater focus. On the flip side, when it comes to logical reasoning there is no effect or even degraded performance. (By the way, when Buddhist monks discovered coffee they found it very useful in prolonging meditation and prayer.) Contradictorily, the opposite may be true in depending on the individual. The author suggest that the exact cognitive effect can vary from person to person. Either way, it's clear that it can greatly aid a person becoming aware within a dream. Regardless there always seems to be increased recall and vividness within 1-3 hours depending on dosage.
Tolerance
It seems that tolerance happens like this. Any time we put any drug or mind altering substance in our body the brain wants to work to normalize. The more we regularly put that substance in our body the more the brain will change to accommodate normalization. So when we constantly suppress Andenosine receptors in our body the brain can actually increase the number or receptors requiring more levels caffeine to get the same effect. This also explains why when a person addicted to caffeine suddenly quits they will tend to feel tired and lethargic. I suspect this is obviously reversible with absence.
So it seems, as with all things, moderation is the key.
I still think that the biggest challenge here is finding the right amount of caffeine so that we mentally wake up in a dream and not end up with non lucid nREM or worse insomnia.
Dose: 1 bag green tea (WBTB)
Supporting Supplements: Prebed: 100mg 5-HTP; WBTB: 2xGalantamind (8mg galantamine, choline, B5), 500mg choline bitartrate, 600mg Alpha-GPC, 3 bags peppermint tea
Bedtime: 11:30PM
WBTB wake time: ~3:40AM
Dose Time: ~3:40AM
Technique: DILD
Lucid: Yes! One DILD + one micro-lucid via DILD
I didn’t manage a WILD, but as usual caffeine seems to help with DILDs, too. This was a very long, stable lucid, so I think it’s clear that low doses of caffeine still allow for lots and lots of REM dreaming and stable dreams.
As long as the doses are modest, it doesn’t seem to make me any more likely to awaken prematurely. There was a lot going on in this dream and still it held together well. The non-lucids that hit after this dose were also long and quite vivid.
The lucid dream:
Donkey Kong Junior - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views
Monday Morning, 7.29.13
Dose: Six green tea bags, about 1/8 cup mugwort, prepared in stovetop espresso
Supporting Supplements: Mugwort
Prebed Supplements: None
CADI: about two-three cups normal coffee
CDD: 1 bag green tea, 1 cup coffee
Bedtime: 9ish?
WBTB time and length:3:00AM? breif
Time of dose: 3:00AM?
Morning wake time: about 4AM
Technique:SSILD
Lucid: Yes
Insomnia/loss of sleep: Fell asleep straight away and got horrible insomnia about 45min later. I think I found my upper limits with green tea!
Total sleep: 7ish
Comments:: I had a strange DEILDy half formed LD were I was dancing with a young Audrey Hepburn (Or a photo of her anyway) in black and white to the tune of "A Kiss To Build A Dream On".
Dancing With Audrey Hepburn - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views
Dose: 3 green tea bags prepared in stovetop espresso
Supporting Supplements: Amino Acid Blend
Prebed Supplements: None
CADI: about two-three cups normal coffee
CDD: 2 cups coffee
Bedtime: 9PM
WBTB time and length:3:00AM breif
Time of dose: 3:00AM
Morning wake time: about 4:30AM / alarm at 5AM
Technique:WILD
Lucid: Yes
Insomnia/loss of sleep: Not much. I think I was just at the right amount.
Comments: So it seems like caffeine works as a time cheat. The right amount seems to give the same half wakefulness during mid morning as it does late morning. This was the first time trying AAB with caffeine and I am very pleased with the results. I'll be repeating this again some time in the near future.
The Italian - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views
Dose: 4 green tea bags prepared in stovetop espresso
Supporting Supplements:Mugwort, 120mg L-Dopa
Prebed Supplements: None
CADI: two cups normal coffee
CDD: 2 cups coffee
Bedtime: 9:30PM
WBTB time and length:3:00AM breif
Time of dose: 3:00AM
Morning wake time: about 4:00AM / alarm at 5AM
Technique:SSILD
Lucid: Yes
Insomnia/loss of sleep: Got me at 4:00 only had 6.5 hours sleep total :(
Comments: I think I need to go back down to 3 bags; especially with L-Dopa. I failed to report it (mostly because it was a failure) but I went with 3 bags and AAB a few nights ago and didn't even recall a dream. Of course, I was exhausted so I was set up for failure from the get go. Hell, I may have had a lucid and just forgot it. Anyway, 3 bags may be nominal for my current caffeine intake unless I am a bit more tired. Also, since I drink caffeine daily, I don't really see any harm or worry in frequency of use with as long as I make up for or reduce any insomnia effects. I may try going to bed a little early next time to make up for the hour or so that I may lose in sleep. That's always easier said than done.
Dose: 1 bag green tea (WBTB)
Supporting Supplements: Prebed: 3mg melatonin; WBTB: Yuschak Amino Acid Blend (4g L-glutamine, 2g L-aspartic acid, 300mg L-theanine)
Bedtime: 11:00PM
WBTB wake time: ~4:15AM
Dose Time: ~4:15AM
Technique: MILD
Lucid: No
This is the beginning of my experiment with combining the Yuschak Amino Acid Blend with caffeine. The AAB has never done much for me by itself, so I'm trying to see whether combining it with an aid like caffeine might turn it into a decent trigger. Since the AAB works on completely different pathways from cholinergics like galantamine, it'd be nice if I could make something happen with it.
I had some cool dreams, at least, but they were all non-lucid. One unhelpful factor was one of my dogs acting crazy during WBTB, which was a big distraction. I'll probably try raising this to 2 bags of green tea next time and see how it goes.
Edit: Something else interesting that I should mention... when I woke up this morning, I immediately had a big flash of insight on how to tackle a somewhat difficult work-related problem. Kinda cool. Didn't mind that, gotta say. :)
Dose: 50 mg Pro plus caffeine (with water)
Supporting Supplements: None
Prebed Supplements: None (See notes)
Bedtime: 11.28 pm
WBTB time and length: 5.50 am (23 min)
Time of dose: 6.05 am
Morning wake time: 5.50 am (alarm)
Technique: DILD
Lucid: Yes
Insomnia/loss of sleep: No problem – dropped off to sleep fairly quickly due to still feeling drowsy and with taking a short WBTB. (Total sleep time = 9.25 hrs approx)
Comments: A very vivid and interactive dream which seemed initially quite real. I had awareness, but I had to work hard at it to gain lucidity.
Slight sexual theme just before lucidity. Quite a fun dream. Excellent recall noted.
(Note: This is on the back of taking G and C early yesterday morning which mainly caused transitions and a sexual dream along with a lot of recall, etc. Residue?)
The sunset, etc (DILD) - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views
Dose: 1 bag green tea (WBTB)
Supporting Supplements: Prebed: 100mg 5-HTP; WBTB: 2xGalantamind (8mg galantamine, choline, B5), 500mg choline bitartrate, 600mg Alpha-GPC
Bedtime: 11:00PM
WBTB wake time: ~4:10AM
Dose Time: ~4:10AM
Technique: MILD
Lucid: Yes!
This was a nice, solid LD. I took a risk by taking my supps during a WBTB that was only 2 hours before my waking time, but it all worked out in the end. May not have been the most cautious move, but I wasn't punished for it. :)
I tried to DEILD when the LD ended and very nearly succeeded but couldn't keep the new scene stable. I doubt this has much to do with the caffeine but it's worth noting. It was so close.
Caught in a Net - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views
Dose: 50 mg Pro plus caffeine (with water)
Supporting Supplements: None
Prebed Supplements: None
Bedtime: 10.58 pm
WBTB time and length: 5.50 am (20 min)
Time of dose: 6.05 am
Morning wake time: 5.50 am and 6.00 am ( - see note)
Technique: DILD
Lucid: Yes
Insomnia/loss of sleep: I did take a rest/snooze at the start of the WBTB as I woke up 10 minutes before the alarm which I then switched off.
Post-WBTB was not a major problem. I did feel a bit warm though and slightly uncomfortable (which wasn’t Caffeine related.)
I did repeat a couple or so mantras, etc. and I had my totem.
(Total sleep time = 8.75 hrs approx)
Comments: A fairly vivid and interactive dream. I had reasonable awareness, but I did sort of get sidetracked.
I did have some control where I could think, etc. The dream was quite a long affair for me.
I had good recall of the event which helped with recording details, etc. which included other NLD’s.
The telephone, etc (DILD) - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views
I haven't had much time to keep up with the thread but I have tried various combos with caffeine (AAB, L-DOPA, B6, Taurine, Mugwort) but all of them did not result in lucidity just really vivid dreams. Which isn't so bad but I think I have been a little too tired to have any real lucid effects.
Dose: 50 mg Pro plus caffeine (with water)
Supporting Supplements: None
Prebed Supplements: None
Bedtime: 11.11 pm
WBTB time and length: 5.15 am (17 min)
Time of dose: 5.22 am
Morning wake time: 5.15 am (although I did wake up once or twice after the main dreams, etc.)
Technique: DILD (see note)
Lucid: Yes (x2)
Insomnia/loss of sleep: I did have a bit of post-WBTB restlessness/insomnia due to over thinking and erroneous thoughts during the MILD phase generally; although it did settle down.
(I did repeat a couple or so mantras, etc. and I had my totem.)
Post-WBTB was mainly due to post DILD excitement and feeling a bit warm/uncomfortable.
(Total sleep time = 10.25 hrs approx)
Comments: A fairly vivid and interactive main dream. I had excellent awareness, etc.
I did have good control where I could think, etc. The dream was quite long considering, plus I managed to incubate and do various tasks.
I had excellent recall post-WBTB, although I did recall some pre-WBTB (non-Caffeine related) NL dreams.
TOTM attempt. Mom, etc. (DILD’s) - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views