Using Caffeine as a Trigger

Highlander, how much caffeine do you typically ingest in a day/week ect? I am thinking about abstaining from my usual morning coffee for about a week and then trying this again to see if I can get my success rate back up. It still puzzles me that it was so effective in the beginning and now its just hit and miss. The only problem I can think of it tolerance.

Maybe its a lot like any other aid; too much too often will lessen the effectiveness. I've just got to figure out how long in between. Like with Galantamine, for example, CL and I have found that every 5 days works well. Maybe I should do something similar with caffeine though the thought of never having my morning coffee for the sake of the experiment makes me really apprehensive though I've done it before. :rolleyes:

So, If caffeine has a half life of 3-5 hours then surely in 24 hours the body will be mostly clear of it. So every 2 to 3 days would seem ok if using caffeine only for dreaming purposes and not consuming any during the day. Perhaps if I abstain for the tradition 3 days to clear any addiction I could do a caffeine WBTB then.

I'm just thinking out loud here (out loud typing?) so any thoughts would be great. :D

I'm looking at about 4 cups of tea regularly (spaced) per day, plus about 6 chocolate coated digestive biscuits. (3 at lunch, maybe 3 in the evening.)
No fizzy pop or Coca Cola. No 'energy' drinks, etc.

I'm not sure how much that equates regarding actual Caffeine consumption per day. I would have to check on that and get back to you, although I do know there is generally less caffeine in a cup of tea, etc.

Sometimes if I take a caffeine pill during a WBTB I have removed a cup of tea from my daily routine later to try and compensate.

I generally take the caffeine (50 mg) during WBTB roughly once a week where I have had very good results so far.

Hope that helps. :)

Thanks. Just off the top of my head that's probably no where near the amount of caffeine the average coffee drinker consumes. Plus, I'm not sure but isn't the caffeine in chocolate pretty minuscule? Also, theres theobromine to consider... anyway, you're probably on the lower side of caffeine consumption. Good idea compensating tea consumption when you WBTB caffeine.

No I didn't think I consumed a lot.

I think the caffeine/wbtb seems to complement my dreaming and/or DILD routine, whereas G(+C) I have slight issues with, mainly stability and LD length. (Early days though!)

I don't seem to get that issue with caffeine. It is hard to say regarding yourself. Maybe your body has got used to your routine(s) maybe?

Let us know if you find out.

Hmmm, my average intake is more or less the same as Highlander's which may explain why the caffeine trials have been so effective.

Xanous, if you can substitute coffee for black tea perhaps it will be easier to adjust. You can have a lighter tea in the afternoon when you begin to feel tired. Good luck with your experiments! :)

Highlander, I had issues with galantamine my first few nights. My LDs were short but it was because the insomnia was so bad. Now it doesn't seem to be an issue. My caffeine LD's are usually much shorter and I tend to wake at the one hour mark.

NyxCC, I think green tea would be a suitable alternative if I just HAVE to have caffeine. I've done this before and the lower amount seems to make this a good idea to ween myself off if need be.

Dose: 50 mg Pro plus caffeine (with water)
Supporting Supplements: None
Prebed Supplements: Nytol (herbal) x2 – (Contains Valerian, Passion flower and Hops)
Bedtime: 11.55 pm
WBTB time and length: 5.50 am (32 min)
Time of dose: 6.15 am
Morning wake time: 9.52 am
Technique: DILD
Lucid: Yes
Insomnia/loss of sleep: I took at least an hour to drop off to sleep last night (even after the Nytol) due to feeling a bit restless, etc.
Post-WBTB was not really a problem. I did feel a bit 'down' though (which wasn’t Caffeine related.)
(Total sleep time = 8 – 9.25 hrs approx)
Comments: Had a crap-ton of dreams.
I remember waking up at least 2-3 times during the night.
Good recall and dream vividness, inc. the pre-WBTB dreams.
I did gain awareness where the dream became a DILD. I didn’t have a lot of influence where must have lost lucidity and gone into another dream or scenario.
There were some memorable dreams either side of my WBTB, although the (non-Caffeine related) one was a bit emotional and a bit nightmarish.

http://www.dreamviews.com/blogs/high...tc-dild-50934/

Dose: 4 green tea bags
Supporting Supplements:none
Prebed Supplements: None
CADI: two cups normal coffee
CDD: 2 cups coffee
Bedtime: 9:30PM
WBTB time and length:4:00AM brief
Time of dose: 4:00AM
Morning wake time: 6AM
Technique:SSILD
Lucid: Yes
Insomnia/loss of sleep:very little

Comments:
Yeah so I didn't quit my morning coffee but I have kept to two cups in the morning and nothing else. I think I'll hold it there for now since I had a win this morning and with only 4 green tea bags.
I was really disappointed when I woke up after the usual hour and recalled only a brief image. I felt slight wakefulness but still sleepy so I decided to concentrate harder and fell back to sleep. I feel like I slept really light that last hour and was surprised with a DILD. Maybe the key for me is not during the first hour only. It seems like the right amount of wakefulness could extend a little longer that I expect.

Wal-Mart - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

Dose: 50 mg Pro plus caffeine (with water)
Supporting Supplements: None
Prebed Supplements: None
Bedtime: 11.06 pm
WBTB time and length: (5.15 am – missed) 6.21 am (20 minutes)
Time of dose: 6.30 am
Morning wake time: 8.57 am (The last half hour or so I just rested.)
Technique: DILD
Lucid: Yes
Insomnia/loss of sleep: I had no real problems dropping off to sleep.
I did snooze after my intended WBTB time (5.15 am) although I woke naturally for a WBTB a bit after.
(Total sleep time = 7.5 – 8.25 hrs approx)
Comments: I had some form of sexy dream start forming post-WBTB.
Quite good recall in general with good awareness resulting in a fairly long DILD. The atmosphere was quite stable and reasonably vivid, plus I could remember tasks, etc.
N.B. Pre-WBTB (non-Caffeine) dreams were also recalled well.
Flashback much later on.

The Art award – TOTM attempt, etc (DILD) - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

:goodjob: Great stuff Highlander! This seems to be working well for you.

Thanks Xanous!

It seems to complement my WBTB routine. I just have to be mindful of my body getting used to my routine(s) a la 'other supplements.'

So long as I don't try things too regular. :)

Dose: 50 mg Pro plus caffeine (with water)
Supporting Supplements: None
Prebed Supplements: None
Bedtime: 11.06 pm
WBTB time and length: 6.42 am (24 min)
Time of dose: 7.00 am
Morning wake time: 9.11 am (rising)
Technique: DILD
Lucid: Yes
Insomnia/loss of sleep: I took at least an half and hour to drop off to sleep last night where I experienced some transient HI beforehand. (Non-caffeine related however.)
Post-WBTB was not a problem. (There was a lot of bright ambient sunlight in the room.) I did feel a bit alert post-DILD which is to be expected.
(Total sleep time = 8.5 – 9.25 hrs approx)
Comments:
I managed to drift off to sleep fairly easily post-WBTB. I had good awareness in the main dream which was fairly vivid which resulted in a DILD. The stability was a bit of an issue however (possibly due to ambient sunlight/time in the morning maybe?)
I was able to visualize scenes and thoughts post-DILD whilst resting but still feeling a little drowsy in bed, inc. a brief transition related sound at one point.
N.B. I managed to recall a pre-WBTB dream which is obviously non-caffeine (supplement) related as such. (I did take a Galantamine-based supplement about 24 hrs earlier also.)
Crystal totem(s) and very basic (occasional) MILD-type affirmations used during WBTB/post-WBTB.

Caffeine entries have been piling up, so I am putting a summary in the two tables below.

We are looking at two weeks: 9-15 Sept, 16-22 Sept. During these two weeks due to external factors, I had to drastically change my eating habits, and basically have dinner 4 hrs early. The first week, I observed a significant decline in recall, extremely deep sleep and had only two micro-lds. During that time, I also did the usual WBTBs plus very good supps including caffeine, yet the result was frustrating. There was also some stress and other distractions going on but towards the end of the first week, I concluded that the extra early dinner was depriving me of some recall and ld needed nutrients. Therefore, the following week, still under the early dinner plan, I decided to rearrange food quantities, eating slightly less during early dinner (women!) and have a secret pre bed snack, consisting of mini portions of fruit, bread and some fish. :shock:

Other factors remained more or less the same during week 2, I continued caffeinating, this time seeing improvement in recall and ld frequency. Ld quality was overall average to below average for most, but got a 4/4 caffeine success rate, so really shouldn't complain.

In the meantime, I have returned to my not so healthy but perhaps useful habit of eating a rather late dinner. Ld rate is up, so there might be a connection after all. :-?

Date:	10 Sept	11 Sept	12 Sept
Dose:	26 mg caff. (latte)	48 mg caff. (latte)	40 mg caff. RB
Supporting Supps:	n/a	n/a	n/a
Prebed Supps:	200mg valerian	80 mg gingko	3 mg mel
CADI:	3-4 cups of tea	3-4 cups of tea	3-4 cups of tea
CDD:	4 cups of tea	3-4 cups of tea + the latte	3-4 cups of tea + the latte
WBTB/Dose Time:	+ 6 hrs	+ 6 hrs	+ 6 hrs
Technique	mantra	mantra	mantra
Lucid:	prior to wbtb	no	no?!
Insomnia/loss of sleep:	None at all	no	no
Comments:	very sleepy	sleepy	sleepy

DJ Entry 10 Sept - Nutty Feeling

Date:	16 Sept	17 Sept	19 Sept	20 Sept
Dose:	26 mg caff. (la)	26 mg caff. (la)	60 mg caffeine (RB)	26 mg caff. (la)
Prebed Supps:	3mg mel	80 mg gingko	200mg valerian	n/a
CADI:	3-4 cups of tea	3-4 cups of tea	3-4 cups of tea	3-4 cups of tea
CDD:	3-4 cups of tea + a capuccino	3-4 cups of tea + the latte	3-4 cups of tea + the latte	3-4 cups of tea + the RB
WBTB/Dose Time:	+ 6 hrs	+ 5.5 hrs	+ 5.5 hrs	+ 6 hrs
Technique	mantra	mantra	mantra	mantra
Lucid:	yes, very long too	yes, short one, caught DS	yes	yes, short one
Insomnia/loss of sleep:	ok	ok	ok	ok

DJ Entry 16 Sept Part I - Details

DJ Entry 16 Sept Part II - Voicemail

DJ Entries 17 & 20 Sept - Summary

DJ Entry 19 Sept - In love & Falling

Dose: 50 mg Pro plus caffeine (with water)
Supporting Supplements: None
Prebed Supplements: None
Bedtime: 11.11 pm
WBTB time and length: 6.00 am (23 min)
Time of dose: 6.10 am
Morning wake time: 9.44 am (final)
Technique: Intention
Lucid: No
Insomnia/loss of sleep: I took at least an hour to drop off to sleep last night. I did experience some HI/dreamlets in-between. (Not caffeine-related.)
Pre-WBTB I experienced a nightmare FA.
Post-WBTB was not really a problem regarding sleep.
(Total sleep time = 9 – 10 hrs approx)
Comments:
Good recall and dream vividness, etc. The scenes seemed quite crisp and bright with storylines (post-WBTB.)
Post-WBTB totems.
I experienced some HI/image ‘flickering’ whilst resting in bed.
The (pre-WBTB) nightmare was not caffeine related but it was certainly memorable. A throwback to the highly creative (but dark) 1990’s for me.

Terror FA. Creeping about, etc - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views :eek:

from a few nights ago

Dose: 6 bag green tea steeped prebed
Supporting Supplements: 4g l-glutamine, 4g l-aspartic acid
Prebed Supplements: None
CADI: about 4 cups normal coffee
Bedtime: 10PM
Time of dose: 4:00AM
Morning wake time: 6am
Technique: derp (I failed to induce. I was trying to decide my lucid task and fell asleep.)
Lucid: Yes (low level)
Insomnia/loss of sleep: 15-20 min
Comments I got a strange low level lucid where I met a DC woman in my bathroom during an OBE type dream. I asked her to show me something amazing and ended up in a SP type feeling. A specific DV member was next to me telling me something. When I woke up I tried to recall the dream but re-entered it non lucid into an FA. I began telling co-workers in my bedroom about my LD experience and recalled more than perhaps actually happened. I later found out that the DV member I dreamed about had a simular dream about me at about the same time! Did we have a shared dreaming experience? It seems likely! :-?

Dose: strong homemade latte
Supporting Supplements: 100mg B6, 1mg Melatonin
Prebed Supplements: None
Average caffeine: about 2 cups normal coffee early
Bedtime: 930PM
Time of dose: 330AM
Technique: SSILD but didn't follow through well.
Lucid: No but I was so damned close
Insomnia/loss of sleep: none

Comments: I woke about an hour after dose from a very vivid NLD and I came really close to dawning awareness 3 times in the dream. Maybe if I had followed through better with my tech I would have got lucid. I think I should start making my WBTB longer than a few minutes so that I don't just pass out so fast. I also found it interesting that texted Wurlman in the dream about an actual dream I had just before my WBTB (a NLD that I was I lucid). Also since I wake so automatically after 1 hour I may time my dose closer to an hour before the alarm. I like some cushion in case induction takes a little longer so maybe 1.5 hours instead of the usual 2. Another thing to note was that I was having some intensely vivid dreams after waking and between snoozes. Very SciFi and continued after the snooze. Might be DJ worthy.

BTW my son slapped my keyboard and reloaded the page. Yay for autosave!

So I think it's pretty clear what caffeine does for lucid dreaming. Yes, I can work as a trigger but it is also a little tricky. We need the right amount for the moment without causing insomnia. Small doses of caffeine also works great to add with other LDS like galantamine, mugwort... pretty much anything. And obviously the less caffeine you habitually drink during the day the greater effect it has on triggering a LD. That' a really brief summary but that's pretty much all I took from this test.

I truly appreciate those few of you that bothered to post here and I have really enjoyed seeing your results. Feel free to continue to post here but I'll no longer be posting my trails. Also, if you have any final thoughts on your experiences I'd love to hear about. Thanks again everyone!

LD for life!:rockon:

Well, you know that I've had some good results with caffeine and want to :thanks: for starting this research. I've managed to break two dry spells (7 & 6 days I think) with the help of caffeine and have gotten some really awesome lds with it, plus bonus unexpected wilds. For me caffeine has proven to be a great lucid aid, being extremely effective for induction.

On the negative side, I've had issues with insomnia and also some lds have been a bit shallow. Overtime however, I've reduced the amount of caffeine to 30-50 approximately and the negative effects have diminished. I guess it is about each individual finding out what amount of caffeine is optimal for them, plus this will vary with the types of combos used as well.

Overall, I'd say I have really enjoyed experimenting with caffeine as a trigger and will continue using it as a lucid aid as circumstances permit. For me, it has really made a great diffence and I want to thank you for that. Keep lding and don't forget to update us if you stumble upon something interesting. :goodjob2:

Thanks for the review, both of you! Nyx, your chart rocks... and Xanous, thanks for the months of research and knowledge-sharing on caffeine ever since you had such good luck with it last year.

Nyx, have you found 50mgs to be as effective for you as the larger doses you tried before that resulted in insomnia?

Also, did we ever reach a conclusion on whether caffeine helped as much for DILDs as it does for WILDs? On my G nights, I definitely noticed that it raised the odds of a WILD vs. a DILD by a great deal.

I'd love to experiment more with caffeine, but I'm dealing with major issues getting back to sleep during WBTB at the moment. I have a lot of stuff on my mind that I'm very very excited about all the time and it's making it hard for me to get back to sleep. I'll probably have to get to a calmer state of mind before I can do more trials with caffeine.

I think the majority of my caffeine lucids hsve been DILDs but I keep my WBTB short and usually slip under before the caffeine takes effect. Ill have to try it the other way some time. However, I think I have WILD once or twice with it.

That's encouraging. Maybe I don't need to be so afraid of trying out caffeine if I just go right back to sleep and don't push my luck on WBTB length.

In fact, I've been doing that when I get the chance to take galantamine and it at least seems to be okay. I mean, if I do the ultra-short WBTB I'm committing to DILD or maybe DEILD, but it's very useful in particular on those nights when I'm just not sure I've got the time for a long, leisurely WBTB like I'd usually prefer. I DILD most of the time anyway!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CanisLucidis

Thanks for the review, both of you! Nyx, your chart rocks... and Xanous, thanks for the months of research and knowledge-sharing on caffeine ever since you had such good luck with it last year.

Nyx, have you found 50mgs to be as effective for you as the larger doses you tried before that resulted in insomnia?

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I think my optimal dose is fluctuating between the 35-50mg but as I said it depends on how sleepy I feel. If by chance I have a micro-awakening afterwards and still feel I am too sleepy, I might get another sip or so and then back to bed. I really don't time my wbtbs and they always depend on my mood. Sometimes I just drink the coffee and then straight to bed and miss out, other times I may overshoot and get too excited. Therefore, I think my actions may be influencing the effectiveness in a way, and it's still hard to hit the right spot. At any rate, the 50 mg dose is pretty effective and I don't think I need to increase it, not just because of insomnia, but because I find that higher doses may result in more dream instability.

Quote:

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Also, did we ever reach a conclusion on whether caffeine helped as much for DILDs as it does for WILDs? On my G nights, I definitely noticed that it raised the odds of a WILD vs. a DILD by a great deal.

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Well, I definitely get more of these from scratch lds, be they wild or dild, i.e. you just start the dream lucid. I am not sure if it is the caffeine or the extended wbtb that does it though. I guess it might be a combination of the two. At any rate, will keep an eye on any trends that may come with caffeine consumption.

Quote:

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I'd love to experiment more with caffeine, but I'm dealing with major issues getting back to sleep during WBTB at the moment. I have a lot of stuff on my mind that I'm very very excited about all the time and it's making it hard for me to get back to sleep. I'll probably have to get to a calmer state of mind before I can do more trials with caffeine.

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I also feel overwhelmed doing wbtbs when there are distracting things from real life that get into the way. Hope things calm down for you soon. It will be great to hear your feedback whenever you are ready to experiment. Sweet dreams! :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Xanous

I truly appreciate those few of you that bothered to post here and I have really enjoyed seeing your results. Feel free to continue to post here but I'll no longer be posting my trails. Also, if you have any final thoughts on your experiences I'd love to hear about. Thanks again everyone!

LD for life!:rockon:

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No problem Xanous. Thanks for raising the OP. I think we are glad we could help. :bowdown:

I had well above average results using 50 mg of Caffeine @ WBTB. I did not really have any insomnia issues as such, providing my WBTB break wasn't too long.

I did have a bit of a 'rush' from when I got up out of bed one morning where my heart rate seemed higher/heavier one time; otherwise I was ok.

I would definitely use it in my regimen again periodically as I always seemed to get good recall and vivid dreams, inc. DILD's.

I also enjoyed reading everybody's accounts during the period too, including your own. :)

Very nice, thank you both for the tips! It's sounding like I should give 50 mg a serious trial. I had good results with 25-30mg in conjunction with galantamine as a way to induce WILDs (an idea Yuschak put forth in a research paper), so it makes sense to raise the dose a bit higher for a caffeine-only trial.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NyxCC

I also feel overwhelmed doing wbtbs when there are distracting things from real life that get into the way. Hope things calm down for you soon. It will be great to hear your feedback whenever you are ready to experiment. Sweet dreams! :)

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Thanks, Nyx! I just happen to have a lot of excitement going on right now, the kind of thing that's very positive but also fills you with nervous energy. Couple that with a lot of very late nights recently and you can imagine that my basic LD practices could use some work. :)

Thanks ya'll. I've got some new ideas to consider now. I like how you're talking about 50mg and less when I am going more 100-200mg range. :chuckle: I guess that's just down to tolerance.

NyxCC gives some ideas to consider maybe lowering my dose and doing an extra hit in there at some point. I never considered that. Thanks. :D

BTW the majority of my WBTBs are usually very brief, especially with LDS unless I am planning to WILD on the start. I know that I will almost always wake at the one hour mark so I initially go for a DILD with SSILD or mantra and THEN WILD or DEILD. I guess it always a time factory for me but It's interesting to see an alternative idea to my method. Very cool ideas. Thanks again.