Mastering Lucid dreaming

[Nirvana Starseed]

I propose a subject for study Involving reality checks. To gather information regarding the methods of different types of reality checks. Approaches of mindset in waking, and the degree in which it is integrated into dreams and what the result is over time. Also the result of different frequencys of these checks. And generally just information on RCs and methods used to induce lucid dreams. There are many ways to approach this study but that is the general idea. The goal is to get some consistent and solid results about the methods used to induce ld's. If anyone has any comments now is the time to add them here. Any suggestions about what they would like to see tested and just general discussion on this to help me formulate the most effective experiment for this area. The more people who put their thoughts into this the better the results will be for everyone. P.S I have re-named the thread to more accurately convey the kind of study I am involved in here, which is a study about inducing lucidity in general. And eventually the most effective way and precise steps needed, to master lucid dreaming.

[Nirvana Starseed]

No-one is interested in this???????? Not one comment?? If there is that a lack of interest in it. I will not waste my energy

[Darkness]

8) I am interested. But I need a little more info to fully understand what you entirley want. You can pm me. That would be easier because I sometimes have trouble finding the same place again several days later.

[eXistenZ]

Hi Nirvana Starseed, I read your post today: this is an interesting topic. LaBerge made some sort of classification of dreamsigns, but (as far as I know) there is no classification of reality checks. I guess it would be useful is a preliminary collection of the most used reality checks. I think that the forums can be a large repository of RCs to browse. Then one could classify them according to some criteria. For instance, RCs related to body (tingling one's hand, touching), related to bizarre physics (flying, moving through walls) and so on. A third step would be the study of the efficiency of each RC compared to another one. The number of LDs started by each type of RC would be a proxy. The conclusions can be interesting for our understanding of what is normality and what is considered so outside the normal boundaries that one has to do a RC. Conclusions that are useful for the waking life too. eXistenZ

[Howie]

Nirvana Starseed, Since reality checks can play a vital role in lucid dreaming I think this would make a great experimant. One that may help many people. I am not sure if the content of ones Rc's matters since we all have differant ones. But I may be wrong. Maybe it can give others ideas if we listed them. Just my thoughts on realty checks in general. I think there are a few things that make realtiy checks work. To keep them real!! To do them with conviction. Truely prove to yourself that you are not dreaming. Do them on a consistant basis. So they would be more apt to appear in your dreams. How do you think this should be logged, what information?

[Nirvana Starseed]

This is to find out what actually is so effective about RC's. Here is what I think about it. When dreaming, your consiousness been asleep= non lucid. You need something to jolt your consiousness awake without waking yourself up. I suspect there is a balance and if you become to consious it may effect your dream and you may end up waking from to much brain activity on the consious side, overshadowing your subconsious forcing yourself back into daily consiousness and ending the dream.Breaking the connection to your subconsious. The interesting things here are 1) sleep pararalyisissisisis (sp) Where you are awake but you cannot move your body. In this state it is easy to induce a lucid dream. Finding how to induce this state could be another key to lucid dreaming. 2)Anytime you become lucid it is because your consiousness has woken up enough for you to excercise the part of your brain which allows you to "govern" your free will. While still connected to your subconsious. This balance is rare and very valuable for those who are spiritual, and they know how much potential is in this state. Because its having access to both sides of the brain.There is alot to be discovered in this area. And its in this state where much inspiration and additional knowledge/talents can be realized. For this experiment. The point was to see that which is most effective in awakening the consious in the dream. I would suggest it is not simply reality checks of themselves that make this effective. To do this experiment we would need some people to carry them out. Which requires a bit of dedication. one person could take this approach. Decide that reality it always a dream. Not only decide, but just believe it. Regardless of if your awake or asleep. Like REALLY treat waking life the same as if its a dream.Treat the fact you can't fly as your lack of belief and that your doubt is what stops you and limits you in this dream. My theory is that you will begin to dream in this state also, obviously. And if it is done correctly. Since reality is a dream. When you dream, it will be in the proper context. And you will realize that you can fly! when you wake up from this "Dream" tell yourself that u did it once so you can do it again. When you can't fly in reality, tell yourself. you still havn't mastered flying. Basiclly this is blurring reality with the dream world. And understanding them as one. VEry difficult task. But a very interesting experiment in my opinion if it was to be done. Second approach is 1 reality check per day. A honest one. Like you are really checking to see if it is a dream. And not only this but have a reminder object. Such as a clock with you when you do the check. Then before you go to sleep think of the clock. My theory is that thinking of the clock or object used, will then associatet the reality check with this, and so it will be done and awaken the consious this way. The problem here is I gather sometimes the mind may be in to much of a slumber to be able to achieve a rational check or be able to dream of the clock. thats why i think setting your mind consistently like above while more difficult, would be more effective. Finally have the appoach of meditation or other reality checks in different sequences. This kind of study would be an ongoing thing for dreamviews, it is a very big topic. I'm actually suprised it has not already started to be arranged in a structure of some sort. Because I think this is the more important reseach topic of all. That's why i was suprised no-one had started something of this nature and even more suprised when no-one replied to my thread about it. I mentioned it because in regards to research about inducing lds I was interested in starting it here in this area, so it may help people not only on the site here but people in general. But if I was to take part in it I really need everyones co-operation and involvement because I could not handle something like this by myself properly without doing it any justice. it just is to big an area of research. but I would be excited if people were to start talking about it and discussing what we can do, and become involved.

[PhowaBoy]

Hello, I'd like to help out in the RC research. Seeker wrote somewhere that it helps to do reality checks on things which often appear in your dreams. Kimpossible commented somewhere that she used to paste or write some numbers with the phrase "are you dreaming" on her wristwatch, which turned out to be an effective reality check for her when she checked the time in her dream. (forgive me, Kimpossible, if I've paraphrased erroneously). I thought it was a great idea, although I don't think this would work for me because I rarely check the time (in waking or dreaming). Perhaps an element of the experiment could be to somehow correlate Lucid Induction with performing reality checks on things associated with dreamsigns. For example, if your dreamsign is your childhood home, then do reality checks based on becoming aware of your current location and deciding if you are dreaming or not. Also do reality checks with non-dreamsign related events such as checking your watch, or turning off the lights. People can then keep track of what induced the lucid event and comment whether it was a dreamsign related reality check or not. I have a feeling that the more often you do a reality check, the more likely it will carry over into the dream world. Not sure how I'd guage this aspect of the experiment. I was interested in your idea of treating waking life as if it were a dream. Through my studies in Buddhism, I'm finding it difficult to distingish the waking world from the dream world (see my dreamjournal with lucid dream as Luke Skywalker ). Let me know if you have any further ideas to research this idea.

[eXistenZ]

Hi Nirvana Starseed, It's definitely a relevant topic for lucid dreaming. LaBerge himself starts his book by dealing with dreamsigns and reality checks. I would like to be a subject for your experiment, but I have to warn that I'm a bad lucid dreamer: I had just a framgent of one LD some days ago and I usually have hard time in recalling my dreams (althougn I'm improving). I think that we should define a clear protocol of research with a starting research question. For instance, the research question that seems to emerge from your post is: does RC work as a habit of the mind that one brings into her/his dream (reagardless the specific targeted object) or RC works via memory associations? The first hypothesis is inspired by buddhism (cfr. PhowaBoy) and by your suggestion to treat the whole life as a dream. The second hypthesis is more linked to memory network theory. We might compare two groups of people, one for the first leg of the question and one for the second. We should clealry distinguish which was the trigger of one's LD, whether a targeted object or something else. Just some ideas to refine. eXistenZ

[PhowaBoy]

Hi Nirvana Starseed, I agree with eXistenZ that we need a clear and concise question of what needs to be answered before setting up the hypothesis. It seems to me that we are trying to figure out what makes RC’s effective. Is it:  Consistency of performance (ie. If I were to write a message on my watch and do the fingers through my palm test consistently, would these checks then carry over into my dreams and allow me to trigger lucidity?).  Association of reality check (ie. If I do reality checks that are associated with my dream signs, events, places, or people that often appear in my dreams, what power does this factor have in inducing lucidity?). Although trying to view the waking world as if it were a dream could be viewed as a continuous reality check, I’m not sure if it should be included in this particular experiment as I don’t think it would fit into the experimental model (or control groups) all that well. Best to keep things clear and simple. Perhaps this experiment should have 2 hypotheses: 1. If consistencies of Reality Checks are vigilantly done to form a ‘habit’, these reality checks will begin appearing in the dream world. The procedure could be to have people try to do reality checks that are not associated with their dream signs (it’s a good idea to keep the groups as focused on the test as possible, to the exclusion of other variables). They should do the checks often enough that they feel they are habit forming (such as beggining to check your watch every hour automatically and read the "are you dreaming" phrase written on it). 2. If reality checks are done which are associated with dream signs or dream criteria, the dream signs become more effective tools for inducing lucidity. This test group would focus on doing Reality Checks based on associations with dream signs. It would be important for this group to only do the checks every now and then, inconsistently (non-habit forming). It would also be a good idea to get a group of people who would do both consistency and association variables. You could probably gauge effectiveness of the techniques by plotting percentage of lucid dreams out of total dreams. Maybe get the administrators to jimmy up a PHP/MySQL poll sheet for participators in the experiment to keep track of lucid vs. non-lucid dreams, number of reality checks during the day, and which group they are participating in. Howetzer has a good point, that the conviction in which you prove to yourself that you are awake or sleeping may play a role in the effectiveness of RC's which may be difficult to control in this experiment. Any ideas anyone? Well... hopefully I’ve been helpful. Sorry for rambling on so much.

[Raz]

Originally posted by Nirvana Starseed Decide that reality it always a dream. Not only decide, but just believe it. Regardless of if your awake or asleep. Like REALLY treat waking life the same as if its a dream.Treat the fact you can't fly as your lack of belief and that your doubt is what stops you and limits you in this dream.. I did this unintentuly... and it got me verry depresed and confused after a few weeks before I stoped... Live your dream... dont dream that you are living... But I agree that stoping and pretending that you are having a lucid dream every now and then should help... If nothing else it putts you in a state of meditation and helps you consentrate... Just my 2 cent...

[PhowaBoy]

I’ve been thinking about what Howetzer said above [quote]I think there are a few things that make realtiy checks work. To keep them real!! To do them with conviction. Truely prove to yourself that you are not dreaming. It will be difficult to gauge the quality of ones Reality Check as far as how thoroughly you prove to yourself that you are not dreaming. How’s this for an experiment: People (perhaps Newbies) choose to follow one of the following methods: 1. Set a wrist watch alarm to go off every hour and do a Reality check trying their best to really prove if they are dreaming or not. {Sportwatches, such a the Timex Ironman have a timer function which can be set on continuous interval, and counts down whatever segment of time you set it, as well has multiple alarm settings.} 2. Keep a look out for your dreamsigns during the waking hours and when you see one, really try to prove that you are waking. 3. Set a wrist watch alarm to go off every hour, and look for objects which often occur in your dreams, and use them to try and prove if you are awake or dreaming. People who sign up collect the following data for a month and then post: 1. Which method used (1,2, or 3) 2. Number of dreams: (as recorded in dream journal) 3. Number of Lucid dreams 4. How was Lucidity attained: For each lucid dream, write down what triggered the dream (in dream journal), and whether that was related to a dream sign, or by the habitual response of doing reality checks every hour. List these when posting your results. Not a super objective experimental method, but I think it could get some descent results. Please comment on what you think is good, bad, what could be changed... I’m somewhat of a newbie to lucid dreaming myself and would really like to get proficient at it. When do you think we could start this experiment (Nirvana Starseed.... ???)

[Krrish]

I havent read the full thread. Just posting a link to a specific page in the wikibook on lucid dreaming Reality checks

[Nirvana Starseed]

PhowaBoy has made some very good suggestions and I am impressed how much he has thought this through. korothism posted a very good link that bascially is a summary of everything that is known about inducing lucid dream techniques. Which is excellent. Any new readers I would encourage to take a look at this link and become familar with the basics, which will put them in a better position to understand this area of study. What is lacking in this overview of the link posted, is the precise nature in which lucid dreaming is mastered. And precise effectiveness, results, and steps as to how this is achieved. And why it is achieved. This is the reseach we are undertaking. Which I do not believe has ever been studied before. Firstly I would like to thank PhowaBoy for his effort in considering how the study should be started. Which has helped me conclude how it should be done. This is what I have concluded for this study so far. That I will be carrying out with the help of others who are interested. 1) We should put potential subjects into groups. To gather data about what that subject has tried in practice. This will give us results on the area studied for that subject. 2)To begin with I think it is best to try something simple. And see if this is successful before continuing. Therefore 2 groups should be created to start. The best suited areas to begin with I think are the following: a) (group 1) setting an alarm, when the alarm goes off the subject is to announce "I need to lucid dream, must remember to have a lucid dream" A quick thought of lucid dreaming is all that is needed for this area. The reason I suggest this is to find out how effective a simple consistent reminder/thought of the suggestion and desire to lucid dream is. Without carrying out any methods to prove if it is a dream. The next group should concerntrate on proving it, without suggesting or keeping the desire to lucid dream in mind. For example. B) (group 2) A subject is to set an alarm, when the alarm goes off the subject is to announce "Must test if I am lucid dreaming now" And preform one consistent method to prove if this is true. Not by natural discernment. But according to an outside test. Eg looking at the watch (analog) for 10 seconds exackly and observing it ticking. Observe if it ticks correctly. If so conclude it is not a dream, solely from this check. If it does not tick correctly. It is to be concluded that it is a dream, and methods of becoming fully lucid applied. Which we can define later when the study gets started. Other areas of study which have been considered in this thread so far I think we need to think about. But are too complex at this point to begin with. The main idea we are testing to start is this. Grouup 1 is testing the consistent frequency of a desire to lucid dream. Reminding oneself of this desire every hour. What this involves is a quick reminder and thinking intuitively about how, "I must catch myself in a dream and become lucid" without doing a provable reality check. I will define the precise nature of both checks before we actually start the study. What the difference between the two groups of study are is one is testing logically through a precise process to physically prove if it is a dream. Through a known method of how a dream and reality works. For example in dreams, you can look at a watch for a certain amount of time and nearly everytime the clock will not tick correctly. Another method to testing this may be applied here. The main idea is that we are seeing the difference between logic induced lucid dreams, and suggestion of desire induced lucid dreams. This will help us define the nature of how we use these 2 methods to induce lucidity. Logic is generally not used when the consious mind is fast asleep. But can be used when closer to the lucid state, logic of the consious mind becomes active. A desire to lucid dream plays a vital part in increasing the potential for logic to be used to induce lucidity. To help awaken the consious mind during sleep. Both these methods together indeed help to induce lucid dreams. What we are doing is seperating the two aspects in order to study the results of both processes seperately. That way we recieve precise data about each method. Which can then be used to consider our next area of study. And to conclude what we will from the results of these 2 groups. I think this is the best way that we can start the reseach. Because it is the beginning foundation of what we are studying. We need to begin to study these two aspects in order that we start to get some feeback about the process involved. Considering what I have preposed here now. We need to think more about the best way to do this. We are making progress on how we are going to start the study. But I don't want to rush into it without thinking it through properly. So we still need to plan the study precisely. For those that are interested in taking part in this, we are now getting the bare bone structure and idea of the first study we are undertaking. So now we need to discuss the best way to do this. Considering what I have concluded here, I now need people interested to discuss why this is the best way to begin the study, and if anything else needs to be considered here. And just as important. What the most effective precise approach to this is, to begin the study. Thank you guys for your help so far.

[PhowaBoy]

Hi Nirvana, Things seem to be getting ironed out. I had a couple of thoughts. It looks as though you are suggesting the following groups to study: 1. The power of suggestion to induce lucid dreams. 2. The power of habitual logic to induce lucid dreams. Group 1 works to form a deeper suggestion that during dreaming, we would like to become lucid. Group 2 works towards developing a habit of checking ones reality so that (hopefully), this habit carries over into the dream world. Since the power of suggestion is not directly related to reality checks (I would say that reality checks are simply proving weather or not you are dreaming), this would change the definition of the “scope of the experiment” from testing Reality Checks, to exploring the best methods to induce lucidity (as I think Nirvana Starseed has done). So to try and clarify the experiment a bit: Purpose: To test the power of the factors which induce lucidity, namely, the power of suggestion, and the power of a habitual reality check. Hypothesis: Both the factors of suggestion, and Reality Checks have been suggested to be important in the induction of lucid dreaming, but to what extent? I would guess that developing the intent to lucid dream through constant suggestion will help ‘setup’ the mind for lucid recognition from the subconscious part of the mind. Habitually formed Reality Checks will ‘setup’ the mind to watch for unconventional events which could initiate lucidity from the logical consciousness. Method: Group1: Set watch for every hour, and on alarm tell yourself that you would like to become lucid during sleep, have a vivid lucid dream, and then remember your dream on waking. Group2: Set watch for every hour, and on alarm, do a reality check to really prove to yourself that you are not dreaming. (Note: I would think choosing about 3 different reality checks based on the wikipedia article would be wise). Procedure: Choose a group to take part in. Collect the following data in your dream journal: a. Which group your in. b. Record all Dream. c. If lucid, how did you obtain lucidity (recognized a dream sign, did RC, etc)? After a month summarize and post (perhaps using a poll sheet) a. Which group you participated in b. Date of recorded dream (all dreams). c. Was dream lucid? d. How you attained lucidity? Figure out conclusions later. How bout that?

[Nirvana Starseed]

PhowaBoy looks like you are part of my team then. I was thinking about this and decided there should maybe be 3 groups. 1) Those who RC, look at their watch every hour and check its ticking only (Logic test, no mention of ld or desire at all) 2)Those who every hour remind themself of the desire to lucid dream (I must lucid dream) 3)Those that remind themself and do RC logic test. This would gather data generally about. The effect of logic induced RC The effect of Suggestive induced RC The effect of both Suggestive and logic induced RC together. Together with both attempting to LD at a particular time during the stage of sleep, after a certain amount of hours sleep. This is my Hypothesis 1) Logic alone does not induce LDS when the consious mind is asleep, due to the subconsious mind not running according to logic processes of the consious mind! 2) Suggestion by the consious mind to the subconsious mind therefore helps to induce the awaking of consiousness, where logic of consious mind can then be recognized to increase conscious activity. 3)Maximun effect, after having awakened the consious mind to some extent with suggestion that the subconsious obeys, logic is then useful to help awaken more fully the consious mind, by feeding it logic to increase its activity. By some sort of practical experiment here, I am working on proving this Hypothesis. So we can move forward with the results and continue with the next step. If it turns out the Hypothesis is wrong, I really need to totally re-think my understanding of how it works. I'm pretty sure this is how it works though. My understanding is something to the effect of: The consious mind being the gate keeper to the subconsious mind. The consious is thus in charge of logic/reasoning and deciding what the subconsious is to take in. The subconsious then follows what the consious has decided. What this would conclude if it is correct. Is that reality checks do not soley work because you are checking that you are dreaming, The logic being only a additional boost as explained above. What is most important to the reality check then would be the suggestion that you are working on becoming lucid. Naturally with RCs this suggestion over time penetrates into your subconsious mind, Only at this point can the logic of the reality tests be useful.... This can also explain the common claim by beginners, having initially started to RC but found that even though they did the reality check in the dream. It failed to induce a LD for them. Some people believe it is because they did not do the reality checks properly. Here I suggest it is because the suggestion to lucid dream was not strong enough to awaken the consiousness to use the logic preformed in the reality check. This means that suggestion is a vital part in inducing lucid dreams. And my guess is that suggestion alone can induce lds effectively, without logic testing or RCs. But with logic added to the suggestion, can then be produced a certain balanced needed to achieve the lucid state more effectively.

[PhowaBoy]

Hey Nirvana, I was thinking about point 2 in your hypothesis Originally posted by Nirvana Starseed 2) Suggestion by the consious mind to the subconsious mind therefore helps to induce the awaking of consiousness, where logic of consious mind can then be recognized to increase conscious activity. I think that’s an excellent idea. I believe the HILD approach is testament to that. The question is, what is the cleanest (fewest variables) approach to planting suggestions in the subconscious to ‘test if I’m dreaming’? In other words, is just saying to yourself ‘I want to become lucid in my dreams’ (and trying to really believe it) every hour going to accomplish planting a suggestion in you subconscious? The HILD technique (or hypnotism for that matter) requires a period of relaxation, and then practicing and reinforcing the wish to become lucid once in a state of deep relaxation. I don’t know... it might be sufficient just to relax a bit every hour, and then deeply contemplate the wish to become lucid... it might be quite effective. Not sure how important relaxation is to planting suggestions into the subconscious. Any thoughts? This pondering gave me the idea that maybe one of the best times to practice reality checks is during meditation. I would think the best time to do reality checks is when the outer world is dissolved away (much like the dream world). I’ll post the idea in the Meditation Research thread and see what happens. My thoughts on the failed Reality Checks is that the conscious is fooling the conscious. If you plug your nose in a dream and are unable to breath, it may just be your logic functioning since plugging your nose should block the air passages.. dunno... I suppose it depends on how ‘awake’ your logic is when doing the checks. Everything sounds good so far!

[Nirvana Starseed]

Sorry not much progress is being made recently in my research threads. Due to the lack of interest, I will be undertaking the research personally. Which will take time. Since I do not have all my spare time to study it. But when I become lucid I will make notes about what I am studying in these threads. Anyone such as PhowaBoy who is interested can help me under take the reasearch personally themself. So we have a common goal and are working together in the research. Which I will be guiding as best I can to a useful conclusion and study of it's potential.

[Howie]

Originally posted by Nirvana Starseed Sorry not much progress is being made recently in my research threads. Due to the lack of interest, I will be undertaking the research personally. Which will take time. Since I do not have all my spare time to study it. But when I become lucid I will make notes about what I am studying in these threads. Anyone such as PhowaBoy who is interested can help me under take the reasearch personally themself. So we have a common goal and are working together in the research. Which I will be guiding as best I can to a useful conclusion and study of it's potential. There is no need to be sorry! If you don't have the support it is not your fault. I am half to blame too. I apologize that I cannot give the time into each project. I think this project has potential. I will try ti recruit for you. Howetzer

[Nirvana Starseed]

kool thanks

[eXistenZ]

Hi everyone, This research is interesting and the theory behind is well argued. Since the organization of an experiment seems to be hard to accomplish, we may think about a poll. Here there are already tons of lucid dreams and RC techniques, thus lots of data are already available, just not expressed. Since the techniques described are quite spread among LDers, we do not need to ask someone to apply them, they are already experienced; we should just ask to tell us. We can collect data and then conduct a statistical analysis discovering correlations between type or RCs and frequency/types of dreams. I would suggest to define also the personality of the respondent: rational or emotional types? Here one possible questionnaire for checking types of RCs: Scale of agreement 1 to 7: 1. I do reality checks regularly 2. My reality checks consist in checking whether something weird is happening around me 3. I do reality checks irregularly 4. My reality checks consist in wishing to have a lucid dream 5. When I do a reality check and nothing strange happen, I still feel the desire to have a lucid dream 6. When I do a reality check I am accurate in checking if something strange is happening around me Items 1, 2 and 6 would measure the logic approach. Items 3, 4 and 5 would measure the suggestive approach. By using the factor analysis, the two types of items should aggregate in two distinct components if the subjects use one or the other approach. Then a different scale is needed for the measurement of types of dreams and how they start. For this, an open question about how a lucid dream typically do start may be enough. eXistenZ

[PhowaBoy]

Sounds great! Thanks eXistenZ. How bout this: 1. Do you consider yourself a rational personality, or an emotional personality? (Rational personality types mostly use logic and reason to make decisions, while emotional personality types usually rely on feelings to help make decisions.) RC Data: On a scale from 1 (being least true) and 7 (being most true), please rank the following: 1. I do reality checks regularly 2. My reality checks consist in checking whether something weird is happening around me 3. I do reality checks irregularly 4. My reality checks consist in wishing to have a lucid dream 5. When I do a reality check and nothing strange happen, I still feel the desire to have a lucid dream 6. When I do a reality check I am accurate in checking if something strange is happening around me LD Induction: Please breifly descibe what usually triggers an LD for you? **************************** Would this lend itself to analysis well? If so, what type of statistical tests should it be placed in? Thanks for any help!

[eXistenZ]

Originally posted by PhowaBoy Would this lend itself to analysis well? *If so, what type of statistical tests should it be placed in? Thanks for any help! [b]One could apply a factor analysis to the "RC scale" to show whether two components (logic and emotion) do emerge. Then a cluster analysis along the two dimensions to classify the subjects. A correlation between the factors and the personality scale to see whether personality and types of RCs are linked. eXistenZ

[Nirvana Starseed]

I think asking people at dreamviews about their personal experience with this is an excellent idea and could be very useful to gather information. But I would also like to intergrate some kind of experiment into this, once this data has been gathered. That has a clear purpose and is conducted for this experiment using the information found. I think for now however, we should just ask people and gather data about their experience, I can't believe I did not think to do this first..... Considering what has been mentioned, I will be thinking and discussing about how this should be done....then once we know what we are doing we can start gathering information. Well done guys.