Thread: OBE, AP, LD differences and research basics

I'll share my opinions on the subject.

Imagine the below example as a "diagram" of what the different planes are theoretically supposed to be.

Astral Plane

Etheric/Ethereal Plane

Physical Plane (Lucid Dream)

As you can see, a Lucid dream is a physical phenomena. What you are experiencing are physical hallucinations (like any other dream). The difference, of course, is that you are aware the things you are seeing/touching/hearing etc are just creations of one own mind.

An etheric/ethereal projection is supposed to the consciousness literally leaving your body and being able to move around in a place that is very true to physical plane (some even think it is the physical plane). So in a way, the Etheric/Etheral Plane is a buffer between the physical plane and what is known as the astral plane.

An astral projection refers to when the mind leaves the body, but goes to a different "dimension" or plane of existence that is removed from the physical plane all together. What you are seeing in one of these projections is supposedly real, just not in regard to the physical plane of existence.

Given these rough breakdowns, and Both an EP and AP would qualify as an OBE (considering that your consciousness is indeed leaving the body), but an LD would not.

____________________________________________

Here is my interpretation of the planes, and how they relate to one another:




To contrast the first example, this graph shows EPs and APs as both being of high detail, however with EPs being accurate to the physical plane and APs not. And lucid dreams can be found somewhere in between, but as you can see this is a continuous scale of realism/accuracy and not "levels" or defined "stages" of different phenomena. If you frame the concepts in this way, EPs and APs can all be considered types of LDs.

As far as addressing question 2, it is my personal belief that all three of these phenomena are creations of the mind. However, I am open to the concept of ESP in general, and so I suppose a theoretical explanation of an EP could be a psychic lucid dream. But most of this is just conjecture really. I have very little research to back up these claims at this point. But I am working on it.

Hey Ethen. Thanks for the graphtastic explanation, and your thoughts in general. I was not familiar with "etheril projection" until now.

The differences between these planes of experience seem both subtle and complex, as well as highly subjective. It is still difficult for me to gauge my experiences, mostly because we have a very clear logistical understanding of lucidity thanks to researchers like Laberge, but not so much of AP or EP (this could very well be my own lack of awareness of literature on AP and EP). But it does seem like we have a better grasp on LDs from a research perspective.

Graphtastic exp does clarify some things. If it's veridical data you're looking for (that corresponds with the "physical" plane) in your experiments then you'd want to fall somewhere in the high left quadrant. At least that's what I'm looking for in my own tests. But again it's tough to distinguish the differences between AP and EP because they seems so subjective. Is it a certain "quality" about them? A feelingness? An astral Projectionness?

For example, during one experiment I "woke up" in my bed, but immediately realized I was in a dream (or in some other reality). I got out of my bed, but didn't turn around to see if my body was still lying there. Exploring my apartment, I found it to be extremely vivid, and wildly accurate in the real life details. Except there were mannequins all over my living room, which I probably don't need to explain was slightly disconcerting. I found my way through the living room to an area where my SO had the night before placed an envelop with a 3 digit number in it, which I opened. Inside I found sheets and sheets of papers, with hundreds of numbers on them (fail!).

Where in the spectrum would this experience fall, and how would I judge it?

I note that you worked hard to come up with a solid protocol that minimized the need to "physically" manipulate objects in your OBE, i.e. open a box. Is an inability to physically interact with the environment a particular feature of EP or AP?

Finally, I really appreciate your belief that these experiences are creations of the mind, while still being open to some of the more preternatural possibilities.

b

The more I have been thinking about these things the more I am realizing just how rudimentary that previous graph was. This next graph is more accurate to how I interpret the different phenomena.



I put lines in to make it easier to visualize what the colors are referring to, but in reality I do not think there are hard lines to be found between these phenomena (which is why I opted to use color scales).

As far as what your experience would be categorized as (in reference to the graph) I would say that is was perhaps where the "OBE" line intersects with the AP/EP border. In reality it is hard for me to say because the nature of "qualia" is indeed very subjective. One thing to consider are the boundaries of our own experiences. For example, one's scale of realism is going to be the result of the "curve" set by that person's most "realistic" experience, which may or may not be as realistic as it can get. And the same applies to lucidity. I, for one, have had OBEs that redefined my understanding of vividness/accuracy. My lucidity is pretty good though, seeing as I usually do not loose awareness when I am able to induce an OBE. Then again, how lucid are people when they are awake? There have been times when I have found myself arriving at home from work without really being all that cognizant of the 30 minute drive itself.

For your other question, I did make an effort to ensure that my interaction with the dreamscape was as minimally invasive as possible because, in all honesty, I am not sure how it would affect results if I had to do more than simply observe. It is my belief that even with the most realistic and lucid OBE, opening a box in that "place" is not opening the box in real life. So, if any sort of "interaction" is possible, I would assume that a passive form of interaction (like vision) is the safest bet. This variable is something I would like to experiment with of course, should I get the necessary results from this experiment.