Thread: What was the first number?

Originally Posted by nitsuJ

Silly gooses, we all know that numbers don't really exist deep down.

Apparently, holding that view disqualifies you for participation in this thread. UM would rather just talk to himself.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

I responded to it, but I don't want to turn this thread into a discussion on it. Sort of like with the Beyond Dreaming prerequisite, if you don't think numbers are anything more than human symbols, then you are posting in the wrong thread.

Beyond Dreaming is a forum for people who believe in the supernatural, and people who don't believe in the supernatural have been asked not to post. This is a forum dedicated to Science. If you don't believe in science and you want to apply those rules, then you are the one who doesn't belong here, not those of us who do.

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

Where do they exist?

In space, as invisible, nonmaterial geometric figures. A circle is the set of points in one plane equidistant from one point. Do you want to argue that the entire course of geometry is a crock of shit?

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

Apparently, holding that view disqualifies you for participation in this thread. UM would rather just talk to himself.

Yeah, that's it. Or maybe I want to talk to people who believe numbers exist and want to discuss possible answers to the title of this thread? The topic of the thread is not, "Do numbers exist?".

I don't have a problem with the fact that people said numbers don't exist. I just don't want that to become the major thread topic. Get it?

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

Beyond Dreaming is a forum for people who believe in the supernatural, and people who don't believe in the supernatural have been asked not to post. This is a forum dedicated to Science. If you don't believe in science and you want to apply those rules, then you are the one who doesn't belong here, not those of us who do.

I was talking about this thread, not the forum itself. Did you at some point take lessons on how to completely miss the point of an analogy? If so, they taught you well.

Nothing exists unless it can be observed.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

In space, as invisible, nonmaterial geometric figures. A circle is the set of points in one plane equidistant from one point. Do you want to argue that the entire course of geometry is a crock of shit?

No, I would argue the entire course of geometry is a very useful human concept. Reality does not contain points except as we conceive of them. I think the only point on which you and I disagree is that you seem to disregard human conception as part of reality, and I don't. I believe numbers are real, and so are circles, but not outside the concepts we have created (barring the possibility that other sentient creatures have created the same concepts).

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Yeah, that's it. Or maybe I want to talk to people who believe numbers exist and want to discuss possible answers to the title of this thread? The topic of the thread is not, "Do numbers exist?".

I don't have a problem with the fact that people said numbers don't exist. I just don't want that to become the major thread topic. Get it?

I think what people are saying is that numbers do not exist independently from our concept of them, not that they don't exist at all. We have conceived numbers, therefore they exist. There existence as we know them arose when we conceived of them. You seem to be trying to argue that they are an intrinsic part of reality, but they aren't; or at least no one agrees with you so far. If thats what you would like to discuss, thats fine; but it seems like you will be doing it alone.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

I was talking about this thread, not the forum itself. Did you at some point take lessons on how to completely miss the point of an analogy? If so, they taught you well.

You do get awful pissy when people disagree with you, don't you?

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

The term "pi" is in the formula you stated. What is pi, according to you?

π

Originally Posted by nitsuJ

Nothing exists unless it can be observed.

Haha! You don't exist!


Seriously, I've lost the idea of this thread now... What is going on?

Can you guys shut up about pi now? It's the circumference of a random circle divided by the diameter of that circle. (all in this space-timecontinuum) There. This thread was about first numbers!

One upto five, probably, and from that most other numbers were made. By the way, the babyloniërs used 60 number symbols, instead of the 10 we use now

In space, as invisible, nonmaterial geometric figures. A circle is the set of points in one plane equidistant from one point. Do you want to argue that the entire course of geometry is a crock of shit?

Where would one find a circle, in the universe? Circles are just approximations. In fact the whole of geometry is an approximation of reality, because Euclid's parallel axiom (that two parallel lines never meet) is actually wrong in our reality.

If you say that a circle, ie. x2 + y2 = r2, is real, then really, by extension, every other equation is real.

1/2x5 + x4 + x2 + 9x1/2 + x + e = 0

dy/dx + y.tanx = x^-pi

(2 + 9i)x^4 + (1/2 - 5i)x^3 = 11i

[2 x]^2 + I = O
[4 2]

Where are these things real? Why are they real? None of them will approximate perfectly to reality. Most of them will not approximate to reality at all. There will be an infinitude of infinities, each different equation and type of number becoming steadily more and more obscure until they have no meaning at all.

The idea that numbers are 'in space' demands an explanation, too. What exactly do you mean by that? By what distances are these numbers separated?

Originally Posted by ThreeLetterSyndrom

Can you guys shut up about pi now? It's the circumference of a random circle divided by the diameter of that circle. (all in this space-timecontinuum) There. This thread was about first numbers!

One upto five, probably, and from that most other numbers were made. By the way, the babyloniërs used 60 number symbols, instead of the 10 we use now

Woes, do we have an internet tough guy in here? I think you need to read the thread.

Originally Posted by Xei

Where would one find a circle, in the universe? Circles are just approximations. In fact the whole of geometry is an approximation of reality, because Euclid's parallel axiom (that two parallel lines never meet) is actually wrong in our reality.

...

The idea that numbers are 'in space' demands an explanation, too. What exactly do you mean by that? By what distances are these numbers separated?

I said perfect circles are in space, though they do not exist in the form of matter. Use your imagination to outline one. You will be a bit off, but you will be able to capture the fact that it is there, just not in material form. I did not say numbers exist in space. Numbers are metaphysical, not material.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Woes, do we have an internet tough guy in here? I think you need to read the thread.

That was my way of saying that you guys got off-topic. I read the thread, but two-third of it isn't relevant for the subject. So start another topic if you want to talk about pi and I don't know whatnot. Just don't do it here.

I'm not getting in any discussions about this with you or anyone else.