Thread: If matter cant be created or destroyed, where did all this stuff come from?

Originally Posted by A Roxxor

The universe has a cause.

Actually, we don't know that. Infinite causes that go backwards in time is just as illogical as having no cause at all.

A cause is an explanation of how a state at a prior time led to a different state at a later time. As there was no time before the Big Bang, there can't have been a 'cause' in that sense.

A cause does not have to be an event in a time sequence. It can just be a reason. Everything there is has a reason behind it. Nothing is uncaused. If things could happen without cause/reason, the universe would be too chaotic to exist. The requirement of cause is what allows order in the universe.

A cause is, specifically, a reason with regards to time, as far as I can tell.

If you're going to disprove me, please do it properly (by counterexample).

Originally Posted by Xei

A cause is, specifically, a reason with regards to time, as far as I can tell.

If you're going to disprove me, please do it properly (by counterexample).

Properly? I told you I disagree with your definition but added that we could use the word "reason" if you like. The semantic argument you want to have does not get past the fact that there is a reason the big bang happened.

Here are your examples any way. The congruence of all sides of a square causes it to be a rhombus. The requirement of infinite energy causes the speed of light to be unattainable. The fact that I am on the internet causes me to not be not on the internet.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/cause

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Properly? I told you I disagree with your definition but added that we could use the word "reason" if you like. The semantic argument you want to have does not get past the fact that there is a reason the big bang happened.

Here are your examples any way. The congruence of all sides of a square causes it to be a rhombus. The requirement of infinite energy causes the speed of light to be unattainable. The fact that I am on the internet causes me to not be not on the internet.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/cause

Thanks, but none of those examples are events.

Yes the word cause is a homonym which can also be used to mean reason, but in the case of the cosmological argument it's referring to the temporal definition (cause and effect).

Give me a temporal example and I'll reconsider.

Originally Posted by Xei

Thanks, but none of those examples are events.

Exactly. That was my point.

Originally Posted by Xei

Yes the word cause is a homonym which can also be used to mean reason, but in the case of the cosmological argument it's referring to the temporal definition (cause and effect).

Give me a temporal example and I'll reconsider.

I'm talking about cause and effect also. I am just saying that cause and effect do not have to be separated by a segment of time. There are other ways for the relationship to exist. I think the matter in the universe has that type of cause/reason, and so do its explosive properties, which apparently can exist even in the absence of time.

The laws of physics cause Earth to revolve around the sun. The laws of physics are not events, but they cause events.