Thread: If matter cant be created or destroyed, where did all this stuff come from?

^^ Guess I should have thought that obvious thought earlier, and saved us all some time!

... So then, where did all this stuff come from?

Hahaha... if I answer that question honestly I'll be hurled off the bridge of death and into the chasm!

Bridge-of-Death-monty-python-and-the-holy-grail-591679_800_441.jpg

.. the hell!!?? Why can't I upload as anything but a freakin thumbnail? Crap!

^^ Now I gotta remember what my favorite color was, or else!

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

Change exists - yes, a good term. I know change exists because I have coffee cups filled with it nyuk nyuk! I also know space exists because I always see it for rent on billboards. But according to a lot of ads time is running out!

Ok, I'll quit trying to be bootleg George Carlin..

Now it's me that's hedging... For me it feels very wrong to say that "change exists". What does that even mean?

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

Certain of these changes are regular and cyclic in nature, like the orbit of planets and moons, change of seasons etc, which has allowed us to set up timelines by which to regulate other less cyclic events so we can more effectively utilize our time. We do this the same way we measure space mostly - by drawing a line with regularly spaced marks on it - but in the case of time we usually bend that line into a circle and call it a clock or cut it into segments that we stack into a grid we call a calendar. But what these tools do is simply record when the moon or earth reach certain points in their orbits/rotations - providing a known temporal point against which we can guage other unknown events (meet me at the blue spruce when the sun goes down etc). So our measure of time is simply an extension of the measurement of space which allows us greater control and accuracy over our lives by specifying the positions of moving objects as well as the spacial coordinates of those objects.

Actually "the second has been defined as the duration of 9,192,631,770 periods of the radiation corresponding to the transition between the two hyperfine levels of the ground state of the caesium 133 atom", we're no-longer using astronomical measurements. I just wanted to point that out, as it's way cooler.

Originally Posted by khh

Now it's me that's hedging... For me it feels very wrong to say that "change exists". What does that even mean?

I think you might have answered this question yourself:

Actually "the second has been defined as the duration of 9,192,631,770 periods of the radiation corresponding to the transition between the two hyperfine levels of the ground state of the caesium 133 atom", we're no-longer using astronomical measurements. I just wanted to point that out, as it's way cooler.

Isn't that definition of a second based on change, given that is is the measurement of transition (aka change) of levels of the ground state of an atom? I think you've noted that change does indeed exist with just about the purest, indeed elemental, of examples.

Just a thought; I could be wrong about this...

Originally Posted by Sageous

I think you might have answered this question yourself:

Isn't that definition of a second based on change, given that is is the measurement of transition (aka change) of levels of the ground state of an atom?

I suppose you could look at it that way, that's fine really.

Originally Posted by Sageous

I think you've noted that change does indeed exist with just about the purest, indeed elemental, of examples.

Just a thought; I could be wrong about this...

It's this bit that's too much for me

Originally Posted by khh

I think you've noted that change does indeed exist with just about the purest, indeed elemental, of examples.

It's this bit that's too much for me

How so? Doesn't the transition of the ground state of an atom show real change, at a truly unequivocal level? If not, then what does it represent?

khh, would it work better if I said change occurs, or things move? (or "shit happens"?)

I don't see how anybody could deny this. Maybe the word exist implies that change is a noun rather than a verb, which might be what you object to?

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

khh, would it work better if I said change occurs, or things move? (or "shit happens"?)

I don't see how anybody could deny this. Maybe the word exist implies that change is a noun rather than a verb, which might be what you object to?

Yeah, I think it's pretty much a semantics thing.

Thanks Zeh!

This is all of us who eventually came around to the realization that you told us like 2 pages ago..

There is a theory that I learned back in my freshman year of highschool that says there are two planes that were side by side before everything existed. These two planes must've collided somehow (I also believe they were four or five dimensional planes?), and when this happened, it caused the big bang to occur.. Therefore, all of the matter in the world as we know it is a chunk of a 5 dimensional plane

Before the universe was created, there was no positive and negative charges of matter/energy. Therefore, it is possible that our universe was created spontaneuously without any energy put into it..... another possibility is that our universe was made from the fission or fusion of other universes in a much larger multiverse. :p

Sorry if this has already said:

The total energy of the Universe is zero. You don't need energy to create something with zero energy. Therefore, the Universe required no creator. Now, this does not necessarily mean there was no creator, but it would be a rather unnecessary assumption to make.

I suggest going to YouTube and searching up "Where did EVERYTHING come from?" by Aron Ra.

Originally Posted by Hercuflea

But I do know that something cannot be made out of nothing. It is impossible.

I'm sorry to disappoint you, but you're wrong. Particles CAN be made out of nothing (in Pairs of Matter & Antimatter Particles so the total Energy is 0). Even though in our universe the amount of Matter and Antimatter isn't equal, the total energy of our universe is still 0.0000000... . Why? Because: Gravity.

Gravity is essentially negative energy (if you convert the matter surplus into energy (E=mc²) it would be equal to the gravitational field energy * -1).

September 09, 2013

As I am laying in bed attempting to settle down for the night and go to sleep, my mind is wandering, and my Spirit is being hit with revelation. It started with this thought I heard somewhere sometime:

Everything in the visible realm came from an invisible realm.

I pictured myself going to a tree and peeling bark off and breaking it in my hands. Normally when I go about my daily "mundane" business, I would just see a tree with bark on it. They're all over the place; they're pretty but not special or amazing. But this little piece of tree bark broke through the barrier between the visible and invisible. In a sense, it is actually a manifestation of the invisible realm. So are the waves of the ocean, or ants on the ground, or your chair in your kitchen, or the dust you sweep up, or the stars in the sky. These all exist because of Someone in the invisible realm. Every atom in our solar system is proof that God exists. And let me tell you, the universe is real BIGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG.
Everything you will ever see, feel, taste, touch, or smell is a manifestation of an invisible creative power. Everything is a miracle.

I don't get why the big bang was ever a theory. Matter cannot be created or destroyed. Scientists know this. So where do they suppose everything came from. It had to come from Someone outside of the laws of nature and science, Someone higher above the world we live in, Someone really powerful and miraculous, Someone like Jesus Christ of Nazareth who is powerful enough to even rise from dead.

John 1:1-10

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.

9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. (the rest of creation can be found in the rest of Genesis)

This all is increasing my faith. If God is that big that He could create a universe so large and be intricately involved in all of its details, if God cares enough about us to create this place, I can see that He is a lot higher and more powerful than I thought, and I see that He is willing to do a good thing. He gives us good things. He provides for us, children of God. Matthew 6 is making so much more sense now:

Matthew 6:25-34
25 “Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothes? 26 Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? 27 Can any one of you by worrying add a single hour to your life[e]?
28 “And why do you worry about clothes? See how the flowers of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. 29 Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 30 If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you—you of little faith? 31 So do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32 For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33 But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. 34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.

Another awesome thing is the songs of the stars. I recently heard that scientists discovered that stars are making music, or at least noise, but our ears cannot hear it. But it's there.
Why is this so awesome?
Because the Bible told the Truth! Psalm 19:1-4 says:

1 The heavens proclaim the glory of God.
The skies display his craftsmanship.
2 Day after day they continue to speak;
night after night they make him known.
3 They speak without a sound or word;
their voice is never heard.[a]
4 Yet their message has gone throughout the earth,
and their words to all the world.

The sky and everything in it is not just giving glory to God by looking glorious and proving that Someone amazing is out there and painted the skies.
[Do you realize since the sun was created by Jesus, there has always been a sunset somewhere on the earth. And there has always been a sunrise somewhere. 24/7 since it was created, there has been a sunrise AND a sunset at the same time. Even when the sun stood still (Joshua 10), there would've been a sunrise and sunset the whole time.]
Not only does the beauty of the sky give glory to God, but the VOICE of the sky literally "speak(s) without a sound or word....never heard."
I cannot wait until Jesus gets back. I wonder if when our ears are opened, if we will hear this ancient song the stars have sang to Jesus. I can just picture the wavelengths have been overwhelmingly been pouring all over us and around us like mighty waves of an ocean, yet we never knew it. I wonder how embarrassed I will be when my eyes and ears are open to my surroundings on that day and I come to realize all the glory of God I had been unaware of. I won't be embarrassed I never SAW or HEARD them. That's not my fault. I cannot humanly see or hear them (unless the Holy Spirit gives me spiritual eyes and ears). No, I will be embarrassed that I didn't have more FAITH in God. If I could see and hear it all now, I would have no need or room for faith. If you wait until you see something to believe, that's not faith. But I want to be one who even now with my natural eyes and ears only seeing this realm, to still believe that God exists and that He is more than able and more than willing to act on my behalf.
Hebrews 11:1 - Faith is the confidence that what we hope for will actually happen; it gives us assurance about things we canot see.

So this is why I cannot sleep. haha. There is a realm all around us that we know not of, but it's so real. Everything we have seen our whole lives has come from it. But the spiritual realm I am speaking of is not dark or creepy or mystical in the bad sense. It has nothing to do with witchcraft or sorcery. It is light.
It is the kingdom of God. It is the kingdom of Heaven where God the Father and God the Son live. (the Holy Spirit - the 3rd person of the Triune God - lives in us Christians after believing in Jesus Christ) To give you an idea of this kingdom, here are a list of attributes I KNOW it has. These are the attributes of God Himself (galatians 5):
Love
Joy
Peace
Patience
Kindness
Goodness
Faithfulness
Gentleness
Self-control

I love this man - Jesus Christ.

Acts 16:
“Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, along with everyone in your household.” .... Then he and everyone in his household were immediately baptized.

The Laws of Physics only apply to our universe. Before and outside the Universe, "matter/energy can neither be created nor destroyed" does not apply. Besides, as I stated, the total energy of the Universe is zero.

But I don't even know why I'm bothering to reply.

In a nutshell; laws are just patterns, not rules.

Originally Posted by Xei

In a nutshell; laws are just patterns, not rules.

I was thinking the same thing this morning when I opened my front door a floated off to the mailbox.

This thread is 11 pages long...so tl;dr...but did anyone point out that the title of this thread is a misnomer.

ENERGY cannot be created or destroyed.

Matter IS energy.

^^ A couple of times, I think, but it never hurts to point it out again, especially if it reignites this excellent thread!

But that's exactly what the title said. If energy cannot be created or destroyed, and matter is energy, then matter cannot be created or destroyed. It's exactly the same statement, not a "misnomer".

Originally Posted by Rums03

I was thinking the same thing this morning when I opened my front door and floated off to the mailbox.

That's a pretty cool story, thanks.

Mm, thinking about the first couple pages of this thread...
About how all this could energy could come to be, and the seeming paradox with it coming from nothing.

How much do we know about the nothing?
Nothing is experienced as that which cannot be perceived, but just because it cannot be perceived does not explain it.
Could the God the OP is talking about be what we human's perceive as nothingness?
Was nothingness ever created? Is nothingness subject to the physical laws of the Universe?
How much can we truly know about nothing, and how many of our answers lay within its mystery?