Thread: If matter cant be created or destroyed, where did all this stuff come from?

Ok, im putting this question out, and going to bed, and when i get back i am sure that all you Big Bang Gang Bangers will be all over this thread. I see a dilemma when people that tell us in our classrooms and televisions, that matter and energy cannot be created or destroyed, but they can only change forms.

These same people turn around and tell us that everything just popped out of nothing at the beginning of "time." All of the matter in space and time was suddenly just "came out of a small ball of condensed particles." But, where did those particles come from. By the very theory of the Big Bang, the matter was so condensed that ABSOLUTELY NOTHING could escape the gravity pull. So, how could it have exploded, or by other means expanded into what we now see as the universe? It had to have had a first cause, an initial push by a more powerful entity. (note: i am not a christian, so dont think im one of these good ol boy types or whatever.) If, by the very laws of the universe, matter cannot be created or destroyed, then the Big Bang cannot have happened by its own power. There WAS a creator involved.

Originally Posted by Hercuflea

It had to have had a first cause, an initial push by a more powerful entity.

But what created that more powerful entity? Something had to poof out of nothing else we would not be here.

I heard a scientist on a video or TV (can't recall exactly where) talk about the similarities between black holes sucking up matter, and white holes spitting up matter in a matter similar to the Big Bang. That perhaps our Big Bang was not the beginning of all existence after all. But alas, this 16 year old is nowhere near qualified to answer such a question.

The big bang doesn't say that matter came out of nowhere. It just says the the universe as we recognize it began as a singularity. The conventional wisdom is that quantum fluctuation was responsible for the event but quantum mechanics doesn't include gravity and the scales we are talking about small so that quantum effects have to be taken into account. General Relativity (which predicts gravity) only goes to just after the big bang before it breaks down.

We need a theory of Quantum Gravity to answer your question. "singularity's" will probably not exists in Quantum Gravity. Singularity is a mathematical term for when some otherwise well behaved function goes to infinity or does something else that's nasty and difficult to work with. All of it's partial derivatives going to zero is an example of this. In this case, it's the gravitational attraction going to infinity and the width of the object going to zero. This is probably more indicative of a misunderstanding of gravity at very small distances on our part than of an actual physical occurrence.

Even if you could create matter out of nothing, that wouldn't explain how matter could spontaneously appear out of no where.

The simple answer, is that every thing has always existed. Though possibly not in the form it is now.

I never understand why people say "this can't have happened out of nothing ... but something far more powerful could have!"

or the alternative

"this can't have always existed ... but something far more powerful could have!"

It makes absolutely no sense, since it's basically saying the more complex something is, the more likely it had no cause.


Oh and I love the "if you can't explain it I AM AUTOMATICALLY RIGHT!!!!!111" bit as well.

Originally Posted by Photolysis

I never understand why people say "this can't have happened out of nothing ... but something far more powerful could have!"

or the alternative

"this can't have always existed ... but something far more powerful could have!"

It makes absolutely no sense, since it's basically saying the more complex something is, the more likely it had no cause.


Oh and I love the "if you can't explain it I AM AUTOMATICALLY RIGHT!!!!!111" bit as well.

You just summed up creationism. That is their entire argument in a nutshell.

Originally Posted by Photolysis

I never understand why people say "this can't have happened out of nothing ... but something far more powerful could have!"

or the alternative

"this can't have always existed ... but something far more powerful could have!"

It makes absolutely no sense, since it's basically saying the more complex something is, the more likely it had no cause.


Oh and I love the "if you can't explain it I AM AUTOMATICALLY RIGHT!!!!!111" bit as well.

I love how people say "there must be a creator" just because they don't understand something. It's as ignorant as we used to be seeing something in the sky and saying it's one of the gods in the sky (like Zeus or whatever). Looking back at our history, we were SO GOD DAMN IGNORANT! not that it was really our fault...but we still were. Hell, even today so many people are absolutly ignorant, even science people if you can believe that. The past has not showed so many people that some things at this time of age can't be fully explained yet.

I'll largely stay away from this argument, seeing as how I know very little of quantum physics and all that bullshit. I will say this, though: The thought that something has "always existed" is simply unacceptable to me. Everything happens in a cyclical manner; things begin, end, then start over. Why, then, would the universe not do the same, if everything within the universe does it?

Originally Posted by Photolysis

Oh and I love the "if you can't explain it I AM AUTOMATICALLY RIGHT!!!!!111" bit as well.

Oh, right...kind of like the atheist argument "if you can't prove it I AM AUTOMATICALLY RIGHT!!!!!111...1". The similarities are striking, aren't they?

It's true that just because someone can't refute the existence of something doesn't mean it must exist.

But on the other side of the spectrum, just because someone can't prove the existence of something doesn't mean it cannot exist.

Therefore, there is no harm in faith. Nor is there harm in a lack of faith.

Anyone who's too stupid to see this deserves to be anally raped by a muscle man with a cock the width of a tree branch. I'm dead fucking serious, too. What's so hard to understand about "just because you can't see it doesn't mean it isn't there"? I thought it was pretty damn simple, but apparently not. ...And isn't that sort of thing a principle scientists have been operating on for a long time? To me, it sounds pretty counter-intuitive for any scientist to say "durr wel i cant c it so it not exzist durr hurr hurr". What the fuck, Chuck?

So kudos to those in here who are actually trying to come up with hypotheses as to how the universe came into being, instead of relentlessly attacking people's beliefs out of mere pettiness. Those who are doing the latter...well, just three words: Tree branch cock.

EDIT: Then there's always the possibility that human beings are simply not intelligent enough to comprehend whatever it is that brought the universe into existence. Which seems like a very likely scenario to me, considering the fact that human stupidities such as war still exist. Yeah. A species that kills its own kind on a daily basis, understand the operating principles of the universe? Not in this eternity.

Originally Posted by Black_Eagle

But what created that more powerful entity? Something had to poof out of nothing else we would not be here.

I heard a scientist on a video or TV (can't recall exactly where) talk about the similarities between black holes sucking up matter, and white holes spitting up matter in a matter similar to the Big Bang. That perhaps our Big Bang was not the beginning of all existence after all. But alas, this 16 year old is nowhere near qualified to answer such a question.

Funny you mentioned white holes, I discussed that in school an hour ago.
Did that guy on TV discuss how white holes reverse entropy? (My own hypothesis)


Hercuflea, you would probably like to read this post, some of the questions are addressed.

http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...80#post1167080

Well people can see the universe is spreading outwards from a central point, and make an educated guess that everything started in the center then went outwards.

However, it is very difficult to know what happened at the creation of the universe and what was before. It may even be impossible, as we can never witness the creation of a new universe.

This is the problem i have with the "infinite causes theory" for lack of a better term. Yes, I agree that everything, in this universe, must have a cause. But, assuming that there was a creator that caused the universe into existence, the laws of the creation do not necessarily affect the actions of the creator. For the sake of argument i am going to assume that there is a creator of the universe. If he created everything around us, everything we see and do not see, and one of those foundational principles of the universe is that everything must have a cause, it still does not mean that the creator is affected by it. Creator > Creation. So therefore the creator does not necessarily need to have something that caused it to come into existence. He/She/It is not subject to the laws of his/her/its own creation

Sorry if that was a little vague, im not exactly the most articulate person

Matter cannot be created or destroyed inside our universe. Energy existed with our universe as it came into being, a part of the package deal. It wasn't created after the fact.

Originally Posted by PhilosopherStoned

The conventional wisdom is that quantum fluctuation was responsible for the event

Care to elaborate a bit about that? I thought the conventional wisdom was that there was nothing before the event at all, which begs the question: How does quantum fluctuation happen in nothing? I'll reserve my other questions until you respond.

Originally Posted by Hercuflea

These same people turn around and tell us that everything just popped out of nothing at the beginning of "time."

No they don't. Nobody knows what happened at the beggining. All the Big Bang theory says that we can trace our universe back through time to a point where it was a singularity. That's not nothing.

Originally Posted by Hercuflea

All of the matter in space and time was suddenly just "came out of a small ball of condensed particles." But, where did those particles come from. By the very theory of the Big Bang, the matter was so condensed that ABSOLUTELY NOTHING could escape the gravity pull. So, how could it have exploded, or by other means expanded into what we now see as the universe?

At the Big Bang, space-time and matter were both "created". It isn't an explosion in a pre-existing space. They are trying to figure out what happened that made the Big Bang.

Originally Posted by Hercuflea

It had to have had a first cause, an initial push by a more powerful entity. (note: i am not a christian, so dont think im one of these good ol boy types or whatever.) If, by the very laws of the universe, matter cannot be created or destroyed, then the Big Bang cannot have happened by its own power. There WAS a creator involved.

I don't know how much right we have to say it had to have a first cause, but as I said, all we can know is that it happened.

It was a creator...or it could've been a fart in an extra dimension, or it could've been anything that we can or can't comprehend. Saying it was created by a creator is just a baseless presupposition.

Originally Posted by Hercuflea

Ok, im putting this question out, and going to bed, and when i get back i am sure that all you Big Bang Gang Bangers will be all over this thread. I see a dilemma when people that tell us in our classrooms and televisions, that matter and energy cannot be created or destroyed, but they can only change forms.

These same people turn around and tell us that everything just popped out of nothing at the beginning of "time." All of the matter in space and time was suddenly just "came out of a small ball of condensed particles." But, where did those particles come from. By the very theory of the Big Bang, the matter was so condensed that ABSOLUTELY NOTHING could escape the gravity pull. So, how could it have exploded, or by other means expanded into what we now see as the universe? It had to have had a first cause, an initial push by a more powerful entity. (note: i am not a christian, so dont think im one of these good ol boy types or whatever.) If, by the very laws of the universe, matter cannot be created or destroyed, then the Big Bang cannot have happened by its own power. There WAS a creator involved.

I think the main problem with the "matter couldn't have come from nowhere" criticism of the Big Bang theory has to do with our perspective as humans. We only know so much about the state of the universe before space/time were "created". I may be behind the times, but I don't think science has completely reached a consensus on what (if anything) was actually before the Big Bang, so we are left with the cliffhanger notion that "there was nothing."

To me, the argument is the same as saying "a 7-foot, 300lb man couldn't have come from the unity of a microscopic sperm and an egg which is just barely visible to the naked eye." It's a problem of perspective. If one is not aware of the nutritional process, and the way a body forms and grows from practically nothing, then it would seem an impossibility.

I'm sure there is more to the "universe coming from nothing" paradigm than we have - as of yet - been able to discern.

Originally Posted by Hercuflea

If matter cant be created or destroyed, where did all this stuff come from?

If God can't be created or destroyed, where did he come from?

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

If God can't be created or destroyed, where did he come from?

He is simply the product of a deranged imagination.

You're missing part of that theory.

Matter can't be created or destroyed it can only change form
Matter came from energy. Strings vibrating at certain frequencies in 12 dimensions create matter (so we think)

Originally Posted by ninja9578

You're missing part of that theory.

Matter can't be created or destroyed it can only change form
Matter came from energy. Strings vibrating at certain frequencies in 12 dimensions create matter (so we think)

Well once again, some people only think that they can create matter, but nobody knows for sure. I am basing my argument on tried and true principles that have been agreed upon for centuries, and that is that nothing can be created or destroyed, it can only change form. No, i didnt forget that part. I just dont think its really relevant because even if all of the matter did come from energy in the beginning, the question still remains, Where did all the energy come from?

The universe has always existed, and always will exist. The universe came from the singularity, and expanded. Everything in existence is inside the singularity, so really, there is no outside of the singularity. Because the outside of singularity doesn't exist. The singularity is thought, or a consciousness that's aware of itself and doesn't have a beginning or an end( that's linear thinking, it's hard for us to comprehend something that is infinite ), it is just there..it's energy. We're simply the singularity experiencing itself subjectively.


What is matter made of? Well let's see, molecules break down into groups of atoms, atoms break down into groups of electrons, protons, and neutrons, these subatomic particles break down into quarks.....and I think the quarks are broken down into strings that vibrate at a certain Frequency. What are the strings made of? Well, if scientist actually try to break down these strings, they'll keep breaking it down and down infinitely....you see there's always going to be something there to look at. We can't see the real reality which is that everything is energy, because we are apart of that energy that is self-aware. If someone or something outside of the singularity or universal consciousness looked at the singularity or universal consciousness, all they would see is energy. But that's impossible, because nothing is outside of energy, everything that exists, has existed, or will it exist is energy.

It's sort of like when Neo loses his vision in The Matrix Revolutions....everything is energy..or information.



I also thought this was an interesting idea.

We are all one consciousness which has not the means for subjective experience as it is, experienced subjectively through applying physical stimuli. Time, reality, and all other and higher dimensions exist all at once as a singularity, just as our familiar dimensions of 3-dimensional physical space exist all at once.

Therefore, time experienced subjectively is an illusion, albeit a beautiful and powerful one. Because of this, the universal consciousness is able to subjectively experience itself as all things simultaneously and separately. To do so, it operates as a 'consciousness machine', which basically is always in the process of experiencing all things, all at once, regardless of time, distinct reality present in, and so forth.

To do this, it produces a physical shell which, through some as-of-yet undiscovered physical properties, be it a brain or otherwise, 'filters' or limits awareness of certain dimensions.

Consciousness is the key to it all.

Alright, everyone ready- Sometime in the future we realize that the universe is going to be (insert apocalyptic shit here) At this we have the ability to create worm holes. We setup two worm holes on opposite sides of the universe. It sucks everything in to forms of pure energy- these collide and create matter and antimatter
TADA THE FUCKING STRING THEORY OR SOMETHING

This thread is 11 pages long...so tl;dr...but did anyone point out that the title of this thread is a misnomer.

ENERGY cannot be created or destroyed.

Matter IS energy.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

If God can't be created or destroyed, where did he come from?

God is not subject to the laws of HIS OWN CREATION.

Originally Posted by Hercuflea

God is not subject to the laws of HIS OWN CREATION.

The question still stands...

Originally Posted by A Roxxor

The question still stands...

Yeah but not the way he presented it. If God is not subject to the laws of his own creation, then that means he may or may not have been created by something. I dont know, i havent thought that far into it, because frankly thats another problem for another dimension. But I do believe that there is a God and he did create this, as to his origins, I do not know.