Thread: If matter cant be created or destroyed, where did all this stuff come from?

Originally Posted by dutchraptor

Does it even matter where astralboy posts? He always has the exact same argument.
Nothing is certain! We get it astralboy. Now can you please not disrupt a perfectly fine discussion with your "theory is not fact" tripe.

All of us understand that concept, nothing is certain. Infinite probabilities make that not one theory can conclusively be proved.

However, we choose to make assumptions in theories because otherwise we couldn't even discuss this topic.

The truly erroneous part of your logic is that you keep stating things as fact, which goes exactly what you are pushing on us.

You have to be really stupid to pretend knowing or "be certain" about something like this.
Are you really certain about the universe, life, humans? Really? If it is certain they would say it. And they won't call it "theory"...
Even scientists are more humble than many of you here. Even they would not talk about this as something as a certain fact!
The fact is that you don't know but you have a theory, an assumption, a belief. Accept it!

Then I have a quote for you : Stephen W. Hawking — 'The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge.'

Originally Posted by Sageous

Xei, etal: why do you guys bother?

I don't, I've given up. I just take heart in the fact that nobody capable of rational discourse will pay attention. He will go through life completely conceited with his incredible wisdom and completely ignored by anybody whose opinion actually matters.

Theory and fact are not exact synonyms. We get it. That said, a scientific theory is not a simple guess. It is a well-tested conclusion based on observations, evidence, and experiments. It is not faith.

With that out of the way, I'm done.

This will be my only post on this subject, as I'm expecting astralboy to dissect my post on some odd semantic level, which I can't be bothered arguing against.

Originally Posted by astralboy

You have to be really stupid to pretend knowing or "be certain" about something like this.
Are you really certain about the universe, life, humans? Really? If it is certain they would say it. And they won't call it "theory"...
Even scientists are more humble than many of you here. Even they would not talk about this as something as a certain fact!
The fact is that you don't know but you have a theory, an assumption, a belief. Accept it!

The problem here is that you are making theory out to be synomous with belief, which is not accurate in the context of science. The only fact of science, is that we have no facts. In science, a theory is the absolute form of knowledge and understanding, theories will never 'ascend' and become fact. On the previous page you quoted Freedictionary's definition on theory, and listed all the definitions, however only the first definition is relevant in our discussion. The other definitions are more loose and are not accurate for use in science.

1. A set of statements or principles devised to explain a group of facts or phenomena, especially one that has been repeatedly tested or is widely accepted and can be used to make predictions about natural phenomena.

As is roughly explained here, the purpose of a theory is to explain a phenomenon in such a way, that other scientists can reach identical results. The make up of a theory can be different, but there will always be an experiment and observation, that other scientists can attempt to replicate. If they reach identical results from which they can draw identical conclusions, then the theory must be true. It is still theory, but nobody can falsify it.

At the end of the day, we can not really be certain about anything. We just have to trust that scientific theories, which have all been vigurously tested, are correct, or at least correct enough, that we can build out knowledge on top of it.
If you want to have a taste of how important theories are in science, have a look at the ΛCDM model, which can be used to extrapolate the age of the universe. You don't have to read through or understand it, I just want you to click through all the different theories that are being utilized in order to devise the model. It's a lot. A whole lot. And that is not unique for the ΛCDM model. All the technology you are using in order to communicate on this webforum, is backed by a similar amount of theories.

That is why we are okay with 'believing' in scientific theories. Calling it 'blind belief' is absurd, given the things I've explained above.

^^ Nicely said, Marvo!

You know, I was going to write a sarcastic "Thank you" to Astralboy for destroying this thread, but now that I think about it, he may have done us a good service, given the very high quality of the responses to his nonsense.

So in a sense, Astralboy's trolling (or adamant adherence to a worldview that refuses to believe that any knowledge matters, which is the unlikely but honorable stance I'm kind or rooting for) was helpful, in a twisted, exasperating sort of way... it was even sort of on-topic, if you look at it with really squinty eyes.

So thanks Astralboy -- it might have not have been the result for which you had hoped, but you might have accidentally done a real service to this thread. It would be great, though, if you never did it again!

"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds." - Albert Einstein.
"Anti-social behavior is a trait of intelligence in a world full of conformists" - Nikola Tesla.

You make me laugh so much lol ... It is so fun to talk with you guys.
You are like sheep all following and liking each other posts...
You're in your own cercle with your programed thinking. You reassure each other with your own dogma.
While even a dictionaries are against you and while no scientist said that theory is a fact.
When you read a dictionary you search what you want to see and reject all the rest haha
Here, I'm like the first man who was against the quote "The earth is flat" lol!
Xei is calling me an idot, if he culd he would burn me like the people in the past did xD
You all have the same thinking, what is intelligent in that? I ask myself what is your I.Q score... not more than 80-90 I guess.

"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect." - Mark Twain
This quote is amazing! Because the majority are really like sheep, and that's sad to say.
There is only 2% of the world population that is really intelligent. Very few people have their own thoughts.

But I'm compassionate you know and I like you.
Because you're human... It is human to want have right even when dictionaries are against you.
It's called Ego

Peace

Sigh.

For what it's worth Astralboy, you're supposed to "read a dictionary [and] search what you want to see and reject all the rest." The point of all those definitions is that words can mean different things in different contexts, so only one definition will work for you and your given context (i.e. look up "dog," and then go down to the definition that talks about a dog being an andiron or steel clip --- does the inclusion of that definition mean that all dogs must be andirons?). That you don't know that is very telling, I think.

But thanks anyway, even if you do think we're all idiots (bad word to misspell, BTW) and ironically think we have a problem with ego.

You know Sageous I like you because in of one of my thread You had your own point of view. And that's cool.
Here I just wanted to tell that in no dictionary Theory means Fact. And like I showed it with this link Theory: Synonyms, Theory: Antonyms | Thesaurus.com
Belief, assumption, idea are close to the word theory. Fact is an opposite.

I don't know how the universe beginned.
You don't know it. (Think about it really, do you know it for sure? or you just believe what actual scientists say?)
Science have a theory, which is solid now in the present! It is not based on blind faith, but of some other facts, and observations...
but it remains a theory and not a certainty. Because interpretation can be different in the future.

So seriously people accept it. We don't know. We are not certain. KNOWING is not having a theory or assumptions.

Thank you very much lol.

Originally Posted by astralboy

"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds." - Albert Einstein.
"Anti-social behavior is a trait of intelligence in a world full of conformists" - Nikola Tesla.

You make me laugh so much lol ... It is so fun to talk with you guys.
You are like sheep all following and liking each other posts...
You're in your own cercle with your programed thinking. You reassure each other with your own dogma.
While even a dictionaries are against you and while no scientist said that theory is a fact.
When you read a dictionary you search what you want to see and reject all the rest haha
Here, I'm like the first man who was against the quote "The earth is flat" lol!
Xei is calling me an idot, if he culd he would burn me like the people in the past did xD
You all have the same thinking, what is intelligent in that? I ask myself what is your I.Q score... not more than 80-90 I guess.

"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect." - Mark Twain
This quote is amazing! Because the majority are really like sheep, and that's sad to say.
There is only 2% of the world population that is really intelligent. Very few people have their own thoughts.

But I'm compassionate you know and I like you.
Because you're human... It is human to want have right even when dictionaries are against you.
It's called Ego

Peace

I did not expect this response. I am truly flabbergasted. By the looks of it, you didn't even read my post, you just looked at how many people liked it, and then decided to call us all sub average intelligence sheep. Neat.

Originally Posted by astralboy

I don't know how the universe beginned.
You don't know it. (Think about it really, do you know it for sure? or you just believe what actual scientists say?)
Science have a theory, which is solid now in the present! It is not based on blind faith, but of some other facts, and observations...
but it remains a theory and not a certainty. Because interpretation can be different in the future.

So seriously people accept it. We don't know. We are not certain. KNOWING is not having a theory or assumptions.

Thank you very much lol.

This is all well and good, and you really are not wrong, theories are constantly undergoing changes in order to conform to new observations, that may bring earlier conclusions into question. However, we will never get anywhere, if the assumption is that 'anything we think we know now, might be seen as inaccurate in the future, so we might as well assume we are wrong now and discard current theories'.

Originally Posted by Sageous

^^ Nicely said, Marvo!

You know, I was going to write a sarcastic "Thank you" to Astralboy for destroying this thread, but now that I think about it, he may have done us a good service, given the very high quality of the responses to his nonsense.

So in a sense, Astralboy's trolling (or adamant adherence to a worldview that refuses to believe that any knowledge matters, which is the unlikely but honorable stance I'm kind or rooting for) was helpful, in a twisted, exasperating sort of way... it was even sort of on-topic, if you look at it with really squinty eyes.
a
So thanks Astralboy -- it might have not have been the result for which you had hoped, but you might have accidentally done a real service to this thread. It would be great, though, if you never did it again!

The premise of this thread was shit from minute one. I actually came in here to laugh at stupid people, when I saw it was active, but I certainly got a lot more than I bargained for.

Originally Posted by astralboy

Here I just wanted to tell that in no dictionary Theory means Fact. And like I showed it with this link Theory: Synonyms, Theory: Antonyms | Thesaurus.com
Belief, assumption, idea are close to the word theory. Fact is an opposite.

No, seriously, you don't know what a thesaurus is or how to use one.

What is a thesaurus actually? It's not really a word I ever encountered.

^^ A thesaurus is basically a listing of synonyms, antonyms, and related words. It's used generally as a tool for writers to make their work more interesting, or less intelligible, as it were, and is by no means a tool for scholarly research or definition.

It's for getting synonyms. If you find that you awkwardly keep using the same word in a poem, you would consult a thesaurus to find one of its variants. Or if you wanted to look clever you would consult a thesaurus to find a big word that means the same thing as a small one.

astralboy has found a thesaurus entry for one definition of the word "theory", but it doesn't provide synonyms for other less common definitions such as in "number theory" or "the theory of gravitation", which would be words like "corpus" and "scheme" respectively.

Originally Posted by Xei

No, seriously, you don't know what a thesaurus is or how to use one.

Yeah, I'm not like you... I'm not ALL KNOWING
I thought you given up? lol

innovation-250x347.jpg

Yeah you're a troll.

:

;

I'm so sorry!
Yeah of course! I AM WRONG.
"A thesaurus is basically a listing of synonyms, antonyms, and related words."
Of course! so it is wrong! Dictionary is wrong too.
A thesaurus is just made to list words and wrong meaning. Of Course. LOL

HAHAH you killed me!
I'm gonna leave you now in your illusion of KNOWING. lol

I don't know.. I feel so humble in front f you people, really. xD

Originally Posted by astralboy

I'm so sorry!
Yeah of course! I AM WRONG.

I know it sounds unbelievable, but yes, you are!

You should. We study actual sciences, such as math and computer science. And we are mere sheep.

Originally Posted by astralboy

I'm gonna leave you now in your illusion of KNOWING. lol

could you ever have a reason to say theory means fact?

Originally Posted by DrunkenArse

We need a theory of Quantum Gravity to answer your question. "singularity's" will probably not exists in Quantum Gravity. Singularity is a mathematical term for when some otherwise well behaved function goes to infinity or does something else that's nasty and difficult to work with. All of it's partial derivatives going to zero is an example of this. In this case, it's the gravitational attraction going to infinity and the width of the object going to zero. This is probably more indicative of a misunderstanding of gravity at very small distances on our part than of an actual physical occurrence.

what is the object going to zero?

I don't even know what to do or say at this point, astralboy. You're clearly trolling, yet... I have this oddly strong suspicion that you're actually being serious.

I... I need to lie down... my head hurts.

Lol I found this on my facebook.
I have to share it with you.

Off topic:

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

Hahaha... if I answer that question honestly I'll be hurled off the bridge of death and into the chasm!

.. the hell!!?? Why can't I upload as anything but a freakin thumbnail? Crap!

That's the forum-software - once it's up - I can make it bigger by clicking the thumbnail, right-click, copy img url - then the usual - per symbol. What I do - I have a free photobucket account and directly get an img code to paste from there.

Originally Posted by Marvo

The premise of this thread was shit from minute one. I actually came in here to laugh at stupid people, when I saw it was active, but I certainly got a lot more than I bargained for.

Weell - I understand that sentiment...
Having a bit of an appetite for such as well - I even went back and got myself into some ramblings.
Just ignore me, if you wish - but maybe there is hope left for this thread.
Since our boy from the astral plane still shows appetite for munching over semantics: Scientific theory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

Definitions from scientific organizations
The United States National Academy of Sciences defines scientific theories as follows:

The formal scientific definition of theory is quite different from the everyday meaning of the word.
It refers to a comprehensive explanation of some aspect of nature that is supported by a vast body of evidence. Many scientific theories are so well established that no new evidence is likely to alter them substantially. For example, no new evidence will demonstrate that the Earth does not orbit around the sun (heliocentric theory), or that living things are not made of cells (cell theory), that matter is not composed of atoms, or that the surface of the Earth is not divided into solid plates that have moved over geological timescales (the theory of plate tectonics)...One of the most useful properties of scientific theories is that they can be used to make predictions about natural events or phenomena that have not yet been observed.

From the American Association for the Advancement of Science:

A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world, based on a body of facts that have been repeatedly confirmed through observation and experiment. Such fact-supported theories are not "guesses" but reliable accounts of the real world. The theory of biological evolution is more than "just a theory." It is as factual an explanation of the universe as the atomic theory of matter or the germ theory of disease. Our understanding of gravity is still a work in progress. But the phenomenon of gravity, like evolution, is an accepted fact.

Note that the term theory would not be appropriate for describing untested but intricate hypotheses or even scientific models.

That won't do it either - but better than discuss on the basis of the thesaurus, schnesaurus...

Originally Posted by Maria92

I like the idea of the Big Bang being part of a cycle, but as of now, there is not enough known mass to pull the universe back on itself. Dark matter would do the trick, but as of now, we have not the evidence to back up that theory. You may want to read up on M-theory, though. Interesting stuff.

Aaha. I know, we will cause a heap of joy somewhere in France, when we throw string-theory and also M-theory in.

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

String theory showed how all the particles, and all of the forms of energy in the universe, could be constructed by hypothetical one-dimensional "strings", infinitesimal building-blocks that have only the dimension of length, but not height nor width. Further, string theory suggested that the universe is made up of multiple dimensions.
These "strings" vibrate in multiple dimensions, and depending on how they vibrate, they might be seen in three-dimensional space as matter, light, or gravity.
M-theory unified the 5 preliminary theories by asserting that strings are really 1-dimensional slices of a 2-dimensional membrane vibrating in 11-dimensional space...

Until some way is found to observe the yet hypothetical higher dimensions, which are needed for consistency reasons, M-theory has a very difficult time making predictions that can be tested in a laboratory. Technologically, it may never be possible for it to be experimentally confirmed.

Soo - which "theory-status" does it actually have? Shouldn't it rather be called hypothesis following the above? Well - it is not denominated as "scientific theory" - just "theory"..?
Is it still considered a candidate for the "Theory Of Everything" - bringing together General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics?

Originally Posted by Sageous

Ah, now we're getting somewhere!

Yes indeedy, I've been saying from the get-go that time is a human invention meant to lend order to what would otherwise be a chaotic universe. And that order wasn't necessary until some caveman looked around and said, "I am." Before that we were like any other critters, living in a timeless here & now, with no memory of yesterday or dreams about tomorrow. The amazing complexity of knowing there was a past and will be a tomorrow led us to need time, among a bunch of other new concepts, like religion and hope.

First of all - most of what you call critters definitively do experience time. They can learn from past experiences, they age, they lay in wait for their prey. Take out your pet's favourite toy - it will associate with that the expectation, that sooon - there's gonna be fun - and so forth.

Originally Posted by Sageous

Semantics is the wrong word, if you'll pardon the pun. You're saying that movement is really the same as time? Does everyone here think that? Is that what they're teaching in school now? I am deeply confused. I had always thought that movement was the result of force acting on an object, period. Where exactly does time step in to make an object move? Forgive my shortness here, but this is a bit disturbing, and "movement = time" is something I honestly had never heard before. It certainly explains my oddness, doesn't it?

It wasn't stated with an "=" by anyone. But without time, there would be no movement - lets better say motion.
And nope, motion is not "the result of force acting on an object, period".

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

In physics, motion is a change in position of an object with respect to time and its reference point. Motion is typically described in terms of displacement, direction, velocity, acceleration, and time. Motion is observed by attaching a frame of reference to a body and measuring its change in position relative to that (4-dimensional) frame.

A body which does not move is said to be at rest, motionless, immobile, stationary, or to have constant (time-invariant) position. An object's motion cannot change unless it is acted upon by a force, as described by Newton's first law.

Since everything is in motion anyway - you need the force to change that motion - away from ultimately simply going towards increasing overall entropy.
I hope, this is clearing matters up a bit.
But I am basically saying what Darkmatters has tried to say before.

For the sake of taking a stab at "existence":

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

In common usage, what exists is what one is aware or conscious of through one's senses, and that persists independently in one's absence.

The latter point is where you build your argument from, correct?
But you do concede, that motion does exist independently from an observer, and since there is no motion without time, per definition - time does exist on the same level as motion does.
Intangible - but real enough.


And - we have time as in irreversible - per the laws of thermodynamics:

Originally Posted by ifuturist

I just want to state that for anyone reading this in disbelief thinking "the universe has always been here" - we already know that the universe is not eternal. There was a definite start. We know this by the quantity called entropy.

Entropy is a macro state variable that describes the number of micro states a system can take on. Entropy (S) is (delta)S = Q/T with Q = the amount of heat added to a system and T = the temperature at which the heat is added and S = k ln (omega) with k = constant times the number of states the system can take on (assuming all of the states are equally probable). The second law of thermodynamics says that when any process is undergone the entropy of the universe is always greater than or equal to zero.

We know that the universe has finite energy in it. We know that the universe is not eternal because if it was, all of the energy and 'orderedness' in the universe would already have been used up and dissolved at some inexplicable point in time, so to speak. It would be cold and lifeless. We could not exist.

Entropy is referred to as 'the arrow of time.' A kind of Zelda-ish sounding name.

Yupp. Processes are undergone in time.
I had actually planned on furthering out your post - or simplifying it - but I don't manage to concisely explain the relationship between time and entropy.
Maybe you - or anybody could do that - not in the respect, that our universe didn't exist since eternity - more towards countering the assumption, that time is only something psychological in humans?

Originally Posted by episode24

Originally Posted by DrunkenArse

We need a theory of Quantum Gravity to answer your question. "singularity's" will probably not exists in Quantum Gravity. Singularity is a mathematical term for when some otherwise well behaved function goes to infinity or does something else that's nasty and difficult to work with. All of it's partial derivatives going to zero is an example of this. In this case, it's the gravitational attraction going to infinity and the width of the object going to zero. This is probably more indicative of a misunderstanding of gravity at very small distances on our part than of an actual physical occurrence.

what is the object going to zero?

Now - if you are still with us DrunkenArse () - I suppose you mean general relativity breaking down under the conditions of the big bang?
Going to zero would be the width - the spacial distribution of matter in this case, did I get this correctly?

And as far as I understand further - according to quantum-theory - there are limits concerning the concentration of mass and the strength of gravity. And that doesn't fit the Einsteinian singularity notion and space-time as a continuum.

I have unearthed a German Scientific American from 2009 flying about here as toilet entertainment - I will feed myself with the lead article on exactly our topic further - "The cosmos before the big bang - did our universe have a predecessor?".
It is written by a proponent of "Loop Quantum Gravity". This gets mentioned side by side with string theory and something called "Causal Dynamic Triangulation".
I just started reading - but I want to post now anyway.
What seems to follow from that viewpoint is that space-time is actually grainy - consisting of particles.