Thread: Sleep deprivation and lucidity.

Originally Posted by psychology student

Sleep deprivation:
1: Could someone tell me more about how sleep deprivation can affect lucidity? Specifically how lucidity is effected during alternative sleep schedules. (I know of the REM rebound effect, which means more and longer dreams with deprivation. Also that REM onset may increase).

As far as I know, the only effect sleep deprivation would have on lucidity would be via the REM rebound.

Originally Posted by psychology student

Role of Caffeine:
2: Also, I would like to find out the role of caffeine during sleep deprivation: Caffeine supreses SWS. SWS and REM and the most important stages and are the stages that completely take over the sleep schedule during alternative sleep patterns. If you then suppress SWS with caffeine does it mean immediate REM onset? This sounds complicated but could someone inform me of experiences with caffeine while sleep deprived? Thanks.

It is possible that in those circumstances caffeine could potentiate REM sleep. However, contrary to popular belief, REM sleep does not automatically equal dreams. It is highly likely that artificially induced REM, such as via caffeine, would result in restless sleep but not in more dreams.

Thanks for the other advice

Originally Posted by DuB

REM sleep does not automatically equal dreams. It is highly likely that artificially induced REM, such as via caffeine, would result in restless sleep but not in more dreams.

Is that true? I thought that REM always meant dreams.

Originally Posted by psychology student

I thought that REM always meant dreams.

Neg. While this is usually the case, it's possible both to have REM sleep without dreaming and to dream without being in REM sleep. The two mechanisms are controlled by entirely separate parts of the brain.

I think your a student, right? Could you give me a scientific reference for that. It sounds interesting and I want to investigate further.

Certainly. Here is the abstract for a relevant study published in 2000:

"The paradigmatic assumption that REM sleep is the physiological equivalent of dreaming is in need of fundamental revision. Evidence suggests that dreaming and REM sleep are dissociable states, and that dreaming is controlled by forebrain mechanisms. Recent neuropsychological, radiological, and pharmacological findings suggest that the cholinergic brain stem mechanisms that control the REM state can only generate the psychological phenomena of dreaming through the mediation of a second, probably dopaminergic, forebrain mechanism. Dreaming can be manipulated by dopamine agonists and antagonists with no concomitant change in REM frequency, duration, and density. Dreaming can also be induced by focal forebrain stimulation and by complex partial (forebrain) seizures during nonREM sleep. Likewise, dreaming is obliterated by focal lesions along a specific (probably dopaminergic) forebrain pathway, and these lesions do not have any appreciable effects on REM frequency, duration, and density. These findings suggest that the forebrain mechanism in question is the final common path to dreaming and that the brainstem oscillator that controls the REM state is just one of the many arousal triggers that can activate this mechanism." (Solms, 2000)

Reference:
Solms, M. (2000). Dreaming and REM sleep are controlled by different brain mechanisms. Behavioral and Brain Sciences, 23, 843-850.

Thank you very much. Interesting stuff.

Although I don't have a citation for this, I would like to add that during experiments at the Lucidity Institute, people have been awaked during Non-REM sleep and reported having just been dreaming.

yea, ive heard about non-rem dreams (Dement and Kleitman) but not vice-versa.

Originally Posted by psychology student

Sleep deprivation:
1: Could someone tell me more about how sleep deprivation can affect lucidity? Specifically how lucidity is effected during alternative sleep schedules. (I know of the REM rebound effect, which means more and longer dreams with deprivation. Also that REM onset may increase).

Alternative sleep schedules (uberman, everyman) do NOT result in sleep dep if adapted properly. But napping in a polyphasic sleep schedule can really help getting lucid. Because of the short sleep, your body gets adapted to go into REM as soon as possible, which makes WILDing much easier.

Yea, i heard about that. I tried both sleep schedules, but i couldn't make them permenant.

Once adapted, a polyphasic sleeper shouldn't be sleep deprived.
But during adaptation that'll happen. Esp. if done cold turkey.

Originally Posted by psychology student

Sleep deprivation:
Caffeine supreses SWS. SWS and REM and the most important stages and are the stages that completely take over the sleep schedule during alternative sleep patterns. If you then suppress SWS with caffeine does it mean immediate REM onset? This sounds complicated but could someone inform me of experiences with caffeine while sleep deprived?

You start to feel like a zombie.. 'stretched out' is the only way I can put it.
You're there, but you're not quite there.
You can't focus on anything properly.
At least this is in my case

And I just want to make entirely clear that being polyphasic does not make the majority of your naps result in REM.
Turns out that your nap 'types' will vary a lot, and will more or less average out to the same proportions as a monophasic sleeper.

BTW, dunno if you guys heard of orexin as a possible future replacement for caffiene in keeping people awake?
See here : http://www.wired.com/science/discove...ep_deprivation

Ok, so that is how it works, thanks.

Originally Posted by Placebo

BTW, dunno if you guys heard of orexin as a possible future replacement for caffiene in keeping people awake?
See here : http://www.wired.com/science/discove...ep_deprivation

Bad for lucid dreamers, but interesting.