Thread: New polyphasic sleep pattern

Okay, so I've only been on the uberman schedule for a few weeks now, but I've had issues with having to nap every four hours.

The Dymaxion schedule looked nice (at least more manageable) because it only involves clocking out every six hours, but I've not heard of many people having a lot of success with it, and 6pm still has me at work sometimes.

So, as of this morning, I've been on an as-yet-unnamed schedule of my own.

In short, I sleep 40 minutes at 4am, 12pm, and 8pm (every 8 hours in other words). Neither the 4am or 8pm interferes with a typical 9-5 cubicle job, and napping for 40 minutes at 12pm isn't difficult to manage at all (and still leaves a few minutes for lunch).

The last few weeks that I've been on the uberman schedule, I noticed that 25 minutes of actual sleep felt MUCH more refreshing than 20 minutes of actual sleep, so I'm theorizing that 40 minutes of sleep MIGHT be enough to sustain a person for 7.333 hours when 30 minutes might not.

Also while on the uberman schedule, I noticed that it was very easy to skip one nap cycle (as long as you didn't miss the next one), so that was basically sleeping a half an hour every 8 hours (just not mandated) anyway.

As I write this, it's 5pm my time, and I've only slept 80 minutes today (4am and 12pm). Aside from a slight headache, I don't feel overwhelmingly tired.

Has anyone else tried a schedule like this? I'd welcome any input anyone might have.

If you're interested, I've been tracking my entire polyphasic sleep experiment in greater detail on my project blog at http://tendomentis.blogspot.com.

I'm skeptical of a 40 minute nap .. in my experience it doesn't leave you feeling particularly better and you run the risk of waking up from sleep inertia (grogginess from deep sleep)

In fact, I just tried a 60 minute lunch nap, that I've binned in favour of my usual 20 minute nap and a lie in (I don't oversleep at lunch times when at work, thankfully)

As for 20 min versus 25 min, this really depends on the person. I used to do 26 minutes, which was initially better.
But as I got better at falling asleep fast, I dropped that to 23 then 20 minutes.
Keeping in mind that I have an extra min or two fade in/out on my mp3

It's really about how well you get to sleep, IMO
But that means that 40 is not necessarily better

EDIT:
As to your problem of fitting the uberman schedule to your life, that's a common problem. In fact the biggest reason why people stop - the inconvenience of it.
This is why a lot of people end up with an everyman schedule, or a biphasic (siesta) schedule

Myself, I'm doing this:
04:00-07:00 core
12:00-12:20 nap followed by 20 to 30 minutes listening to the birds
18:00-18:20 (optional/interchangeable with a 22:00 nap)
00:00-00:20 nap (optional/interchangeable with a 22:00 nap)

I prefer to avoid the midnight nap if possible, as it's the most dangerous one, so I tend to do a 10pm nap instead and stay up till 4am
Or I get my wife to make sure I wake up - but not always do-able

Oh I totally allow for the possibility that this might completely fail, but I feel the need to find my own limitations.

If worse comes to worst, I'll simply switch back to uberman.

Fair enough

EDIT: BTW, I'm doing my schedule with a new baby involved as well

I definately do NOT want to use an everyman-variant sleep schedule. If I'm sleeping that much, I might as well be mono/biphasic.

If I can make this schedule work, this would be ideal, but if it isn't sustainable I'll simply go back to the uberman schedule.

I'm keeping my blog updated on the progress of this new variant, but I'll come back and post an update here in two weeks in case anyone else is interested.

Please do!
I'd love to see somebody show it to be possible to have a flexible schedule involving 2 hours
But I remain incredibly skeptical. I've only done that with uberman.

hey, this is very similar to my sleeping pattern. I named it LUCID-MAN because it was good at inducing dreams, i havent yet had actual lucids but it is only a matter of time.
Anyway, I sleep every 8 hours for 40 minutes although I split the 40 min block into two seperate 20 minute blocks. That is, I sleep for 20 minutes, wake for 5 minutes, then sleep again for another 20. I do this 3 times a day with a total of 2 hours. I'm not sure if it worked because my alarm fucked up so somebody should try it for me. I found this was a lot more refreshing than a continuous 40 minute sleep because you are having 2 power naps.

It is essentially uberman but you dont have to nap every 4 hours (one of the main critiques).

Someone try it please.

EDIT: I'm an ex-bi-phasic sleeper but I am thinking of going back to bi-phasic until I get a new alarm.

Interesting. But you need to make sure you don't just fall straight into deep sleep on the second nap (ie. make sure to get up for those 5 mins)
Tempting to try... it's fairly convenient...

Yeah, like I said, I wake for 5 minutes, I usually walk around, go toilet if I have to, read a couple of pages of my bedside book, and then back to bed.

If someone does try mine, please post here your results.

I am pretty sceptic, too. But if this works it would be pretty great. I am routing for you.
And also the second one with the 5 min break, sounds pretty good. Please post how it works out.

I'm just going to stick to the basic triphasic schedule for now. I want to stick to this for at least two weeks before deciding if it's sustainable or not.

The lucidman schedule sounds interesting, but I don't want to mix my schedule up anymore than I already have...yet.

Originally Posted by luke

hey, this is very similar to my sleeping pattern. I named it LUCID-MAN because it was good at inducing dreams, i havent yet had actual lucids but it is only a matter of time.
Anyway, I sleep every 8 hours for 40 minutes although I split the 40 min block into two seperate 20 minute blocks. That is, I sleep for 20 minutes, wake for 5 minutes, then sleep again for another 20. I do this 3 times a day with a total of 2 hours. I'm not sure if it worked because my alarm fucked up so somebody should try it for me. I found this was a lot more refreshing than a continuous 40 minute sleep because you are having 2 power naps.

It is essentially uberman but you dont have to nap every 4 hours (one of the main critiques).

Someone try it please.

EDIT: I'm an ex-bi-phasic sleeper but I am thinking of going back to bi-phasic until I get a new alarm.

That is basically it

I crashed on lucidman, but it was most likely the family event that threw things off, not as much the schedule (coke, alcohol, unable to take both naps)

The family event was, diabolically, planned exactly when I was most likely to have my hardest night of sleep deprivation before things started getting better (3rd or 4th consecutively successful night) ... which was last night.

So only started getting things on track again tonight :/

Originally Posted by Placebo

...hardest night of sleep deprivation before things started getting better (3rd or 4th consecutively successful night) ...

So does this mean that after the 4th night it gets atleast a little easyer? Because, after failing again almost a week ago, I decided to take one day off and start again in the evening. It was Friday when I started, so by now I have endured the first 3 nights (it's now 7:27 AM in Bulgaria). If that is the case, then I will have even more will to go by today
Btw, Yesterday was one of my most hardest waking ups ever. After awaking from my 12 PM nap I almost couldn't open my eyes. I got to bed (I was sleeping on the couch), turned the light out and almost gave up. Then I summed up all my will and driven myself up After that I was like a zombie for half an hour, but then felt fine. It was very strange.

The third night is usually worst for me, and it gets steadily a bit better each night after that - but only a tiny bit at a time, so keep up your guard for up to 2 weeks, and even after that it's not good to think of experimenting until at least 4 weeks in.

Good work!
I still haven't had a lucid yet. I want to so bad, but I am too tired all the time.

I'm new to the forum, but not new to sleeping schedules, and have decided to give lucidman a go. But I have had problems waking up from my alarm, especially the second part of the 'block' in the early morning. Placebo, you have been doing lucidman for a week or so now, how did you get past the adaption period? You mentioned that you used coffee... I don't drink coffee, but I could start, just for the adpation period until I get the hang of things.

When do you take the coffee, and do you have any tips on getting past this difficult time?
Thanks

Originally Posted by reff

Good work!
I still haven't had a lucid yet. I want to so bad, but I am too tired all the time.

I'm new to the forum, but not new to sleeping schedules, and have decided to give lucidman a go. But I have had problems waking up from my alarm, especially the second part of the 'block' in the early morning. Placebo, you have been doing lucidman for a week or so now, how did you get past the adaption period? You mentioned that you used coffee... I don't drink coffee, but I could start, just for the adpation period until I get the hang of things.

When do you take the coffee, and do you have any tips on getting past this difficult time?
Thanks

I'm not Placebo, but I can still give u a decent advice. As Steve Pavlina say's in his Polyphasic Sleep Log, coffeine prevents you from having REM sleep, but that you should already know. What the adaptation period is for, is adapting to having REM sleep right after you fall asleep. Now, if you are prevented from having REM, how will you adapt? I personally tried coffe for couple of days, then stopped and almost fell asleep standing. So, IMHO, coffeine isn't good for sleep schedules. It may help you get trough the waking hours, but then you will oversleep a lot.

Err... I'm busy answering a lot of questions on the google group atm, I'll post what I said here when I'm done.

But briefly , what massive said is true - caffeine is typically not a good idea, because of the time it takes for your body to get rid of it (3 to 4 hours half life, meaning that on uberman, you never quite get rid of it ... 6 to 8 hours to rid yourself of all caffeine effects means you're screwed.

However, this is a bit different in theory on a lucidman schedule, because there's a good 8 hours between naps, meaning that assuming your body metabolises well enough, you'll be rid of the caffeine in time for the next nap.
And I need not explain how helpful coffee can be to stay awake, I'm sure

Tips for getting past the 'difficult time' are as I mentioned on the email group - have a flask of coffee waiting, and all you want to do is sit up and sip your coffee.
By the time you're done with it, you're in a better state of mind to decide to get up.
And of course, use the mp3s to make sure you wake up, and if the going is particularly tough, keep a backup alarm in case you do something silly like pull the earphones out in your delusions/excuses for sleeping more.

Once you're up - walk around and wash your face, talk to someone/something, generally wake up a bit. But don't take too long, or the coffee will kick in too soon into your second nap.

After the second nap, you should find it easier to get up. A backup alarm is still advised if you're in the thick of things, but I didn't find that necessary.

Here's what I said in emails:

Originally Posted by me

Thanks guys, I feel loved again
Now if only I could make a bit of a living from this. Free mp3s are cool and everything, but don't pay bills

Anyway, I'm not nearly as amazing as you all think. I'd love to piss excellence, but I'm human(ish) too.
Firstly, this lucidman schedule isn't of my own conception, but an idea of somebody on DreamViews (a guy named Luke)
Although I did add the coffee nap concept and my own personal routine. And of course, my mp3s

He hasn't done it properly himself, and he named it lucidman with the hope that it would result in lots of lucid dreams (well, that'd be nice, but since adapted uberman normally gives me quite a few... it makes sense)

Secondly, I've only been doing this schedule for about a week, and 2 days ago was my family xmas party. Things didn't go well for my schedule - I got pressured into drinking, and only got time for one nap, etc etc.
I thought I was still good, but my 9am nap ended up being a single nap of 5 hours

So this schedule is largely unproven. The only reason I believe it has a lot of potential is that for the first few days it seemed to doing well. That's far from solid evidence of course.
That's why I initially wanted to wait before telling you guys about this. But somebody wants to have a go at it too, great, I'd love to see the results.

If this schedule is workable, it should be a lot easier to adapt to than uberman. So this could be a step to uberman, but honestly, why would you want to change to uberman from this? The advantages are far greater on this schedule IMO.

Now onto those questions... err... I'll make it another post, since there were so many.

Originally Posted by me

Again thanks for the feedback. I really appreciate it.
Do you guys mind if I posted some of this stuff on my site... when I finally get it together to revamp it?
With reference to your nicks of course.

Before I go on, there are a lot of other tips that I never mentioned in those other posts.
- Don't sit in the dark. Seems obvious, but don't be tempted to try. The brighter the room, the better, for reasons of day/night rhythm.
- Avoid very heavy, fatty, unhealthy meals during adaptation, and don't eat within an hour or two of your naps. IMO rather delay your nap by up to an hour. Rather that than your body struggling through a bad meal.
- Do some cardio (get your heart rate up) right after your nap, particularly the one before night time.
- Snack on light and healthy food to keep your blood sugar stable
- Work out a list of things you want to do at night, and arrange them in order of mental & physical requirements. When you feel really out of sorts and 'stupid', don't try to do calculus. You'll just sit there in a zombie state and end up passing out. At least that's what I have to avoid.
- If you're really struggling at night, tell yourself how you piss excellence and just need to take a jog outside (substitute any cardio here)'. And then do it . In my case, I have a treadmill downstairs which I just need to crawl onto and press the button. The nice thing about a treadmill is you had better move on it. Or hit the wall behind you
- Learn to meditate and clear your mind. If you struggle to go to sleep, meditate in a sleeping position instead. You will still get some rejuvenation. In my case, I go into sleep paralysis even though I'm still aware of myself.

... err don't remember any other tips right at the moment, but those are a good start I think

Okay, let's tackle the stack of questions..

Originally Posted by Netopalis

I'd be very interested in both hearing more about your schedule and in
the new MP3! Could you please tell us a bit more and upload at some
point in the near future?

Since there seems to be some interest in it, sure
Just need to make one or two little adjustments first

Originally Posted by William Cleveland

You're amazing.... (How did I do?)

A bit of overkill, but the flattery comes at a good time
Pity it doesn't pay bills though
I'll upload soon

Originally Posted by Marcus

what you had to do to adapt to it

Just the coffee nap and routine as described, and doing a bit of exercise after some naps to keep the furnace going
And my mp3s of course. And no meals within an hour or two of a nap. And avoiding particularly unhealthy rubbish.

Originally Posted by Marcus

how long you have been on it without issues, etc.

I still have issues, because I'm not finished adapting. Thanks to my family xmas party
The thing is, that coffee tends to mask the sleep deprivation somewhat, so it's difficult to measure any issues. (pros and cons of coffee)

Originally Posted by Marcus

It sounds like one I might be interested in trying, I have actually done the double nap like you described on a few occasions when I had my schedule a bit out of wack to try and catch up without totally breaking my schedule.

Good to know
My previous attempts at a double nap were dodgy at best. The coffee nap and the making sure you get up to wash your face, etc really makes a difference here.

Originally Posted by Marcus

I tried the one you uploaded with the binarial beats in it and found it distracting

Me too actually. Someone specifically asked me to make it with binaurals, and I didn't particularly like the result either. My most recent version has binaurals, but it's much less distracting IMO. But I'll see if I can upload a version without the binaurals.

At some point I still want to try isochronic tones, but I'm skeptical about the idea now, as isochronic tones are even more distracting than binaurals as I understand. I suppose part of the problem is that the binaurals I used was just a binaural track that I combined with my mp3. Results would be better if I could actually modify the left and right channels of my mp3 instead of adding a noisy track to them.

Originally Posted by Netopalis

What do you think makes this work and Dymaxion not work?

Dymaxion has 30 minute naps. That's problem #1 IMO. I don't believe in naps longer than about 25 min maximum. I stick with my 20 min nap.
And a 30 minute coffee nap won't work too well either, because the caffeine kicks in faster than that. And the sugar even more so.
In fact, if you can stand it, I'd suggest coffee without the sugar, and then snack on something after your second nap.

Originally Posted by Netopalis

Despite a fewsuccesses, the general consensus has been that Dymaxion is the most

difficult schedule, yet you seem to think that this new schedule works quite easily. Any insight as to why?

The routine I suggested helps a lot. The coffee nap especially.
Also, the most dangerous time is at night, and most people have been avoiding coffee

Originally Posted by Netopalis

How does this new schedule affect the "timeless" feeling that some have mentioned?
It would seem to me like having these long periods of wakefulness would accentuate it, but I could be wrong....

Well, yes, that night period is longer, but it also means you get to concentrate on something and not be interrupted and be tempted to lie in after a nap at an ungodly hour.

Coffee helps a lot to keep going, and keeping yourself focussed on something engaging is vital.
In my case, my least mentally taxing activity is playing Fallout 3, which I can do for hours on end.
In fact, I'm more in danger of pushing my next nap too far when I get focussed on that game

When I'm feeling up to it, I do graphic illustrations and photo retouching, programming some exciting projects of mine and generally mucking around on the net or on forums.

Thanks again for the feedback, guys

- Greg

Originally Posted by me

Err... and that question of drawbacks got forgotten.
- The coffee masks your ability to judge how well you're doing.
- The long hours between naps mean that you ideally need to keep focussed on something that takes a while, at night when adapting at least. This takes a bit of planning and self control sometimes.
- The longer nap time means you need to find a slightly more comfy spot. At work this is a problem I have, it feels like they deliberately avoid any private spots :/ I usually sleep on my side (sometimes on my back), so for my second nap, I tend to sleep on the opposite side from the first.

Oh, and I forgot to mention that using a sleep mask in the day helps somewhat. And finding a suitable place to sleep, which can be challenging sometimes.

- Greg

"Firstly, this lucidman schedule isn't of my own conception, but an idea of somebody on DreamViews (a guy named tendomentis)"

I think you meant (a guy named luke)