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    Thread: WILD transition without signposts, + basic WILD problems

    1. #1
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      WILD transition without signposts, + basic WILD problems

      I've been having the occasional lucid dream via DILD for about five years now, but only recently read up on them and tried to trigger them through WBTB/WILDing. I've had very limited success, mainly because I just can't seem to enter lucid dreams on my back (I lie there for hours at a time, no joy, often find my neck feels tense), but sleeping on my side often causes me to drop off to sleep too quickly, and when I do get near the transition the combination of SP and the vibrations often causes my heartrate to spiral out of control and I'm not always able to calm it down in time.

      However, here is the really frustrating thing: a few years ago, before I'd heard of WILD, I woke up early one morning, decided I would get up after I'd hashed out some problems that had been on my mind using my internal monologue, closed my eyes, and started making arguments in my head; after maybe ten minutes or so, in mid-sentence, the dark of the back of my eyelids was replaced by the view of a street at night, full-screen and easily entered. I was literally in mid-sentence - no loss of consciousness at all, no deliberate attempt to keep still, but for some reason whatever part of my brain that governs these things decided I had lost consciousness and put my body into sleep-mode. The transition was silky-smooth: no itching, no SP, no vibrations, no hypnogogia… the street-scene came as a total shock. I was actually in disbelief that my body could decide that I was asleep while I was actively thinking.

      Now, however, I'd really like to know what the conditions were that allowed that to happen. Has anyone else had transitions that smooth and that easy? Was it a glitch, or is there an art to it?

      Particularly being able to chat to myself rather than blanking my mind would be really convenient. And I was on my back, too - I can't seem to get a LD like that now that I'm trying.

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      Sure, I've had many WILDs without noticing hypnagogia or vibrations. I don't know what the conditions are that allows this to happen.

      It is not necessary to sleep on the back to WILD. All that is necessary is sleeping, dreaming and noticing the beginning of the dream.

      Chatting to yourself could work as a WILD technique. We can actively think while sleeping and dreaming just as we can while awake, so we can fall asleep and enter a dream while actively thinking.

      A difference between your experience before you heard of WILD and your attempt after you heard of WILD is that you were trying after you heard of WILD. Trying can result in anxiety if it causes you to think about things associated with failure and anxiety can keep you from sleeping.

      Dropping off to sleep quickly is not a problem if you are able to notice the beginning of the dream. Chatting to yourself can help keep you conscious while sleeping. Upon waking up, chat to yourself while sleeping on your side until you dream and see what happens.

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      Thank you, you're no doubt right about the trying causing anxiety, I do tend to be anxious.

      I've had the odd success WILDing on my side, but my hit rate isn't good.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Sketch1 View Post
      However, here is the really frustrating thing: a few years ago, before I'd heard of WILD, I woke up early one morning, decided I would get up after I'd hashed out some problems that had been on my mind using my internal monologue, closed my eyes, and started making arguments in my head; after maybe ten minutes or so, in mid-sentence, the dark of the back of my eyelids was replaced by the view of a street at night, full-screen and easily entered. I was literally in mid-sentence - no loss of consciousness at all, no deliberate attempt to keep still, but for some reason whatever part of my brain that governs these things decided I had lost consciousness and put my body into sleep-mode. The transition was silky-smooth: no itching, no SP, no vibrations, no hypnogogia… the street-scene came as a total shock. I was actually in disbelief that my body could decide that I was asleep while I was actively thinking.
      This is amazing. I wish I could do that on purpose.

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      Me too!

      I've heard FILD gives you a transition to LD without sensations, but I've never managed to get it to work for me.

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      Well, I managed a WILD without the vibrations or the usual oppressive SP effect, just a faint tingling spreading across my skin - perhaps that was the SP, but for some reason it didn't trigger the usual panic attack? Anyway, the transition was something of an awkward struggle, but it worked. The LD itself was rather brief and the visibility could have been better (yet another LD at night - I'm beginning to think my subconscious likes the dark because it doesn't have to render so much detail), but it's better than not achieving an LD at all.

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      I'm a little late to this conversation, but here are a couple of thoughts:

      First: be happy that you are doing WILD's without noticing the noise; Let me assure you that that is a blessing, and not an obstacle, by any measure!

      I had thousands of WILDs, many long before I learned the term or discovered the many techniques back in the '90's, and almost all of them had little to no noise at all. In my experience -- and many others' that I know of -- all this noise that is so popular on the Internet plays little to no role in their WILD transitions.

      I think that a great chunk of people's trouble with the noise lies in the breathlessly high profile it has been given over the last 20 years or so. It's gotten to a point where even experienced dreamers must include things like "reaching SP" as a requirement in their WILD instructions, or else their students either won't listen or will just lose interest.

      Actual Sleep Paralysis, perhaps ironically, generally doesn't even occur when you are falling asleep; it is a very rare condition that usually occurs upon waking up, when your mind is roused a little before your body, and you are momentarily fully awake in a body that refuses to move in any way. What you are probably experiencing (or happily are missing) during your WILD attempts is simply a state of deep relaxation, or perhaps the onset of REM Atonia, which is when your brain gently shuts off certain motor abilities to ensure that your physical body doesn't act out the motions of your dream body during a dream. Unlike actual SP, deep relaxation and REM Atonia are easily exited, so in no way are they paralyzing... I have a feeling that one of the reasons WILD, and LD'ing in general, can be so difficult is because novices are told that the noise, especially SP, is important, and in making it a priority dreamers are distracted to the point of developing an inability to get past the noise, usually because they have been taught to fear it, but almost as often because they have been taught to expect it, so when it doesn't come they assume they cannot be lucid (or, perhaps are surprised by the lucidity when it does occur without the noise).


      So I guess the tl;dr: here is that you might consider yourself blessed with a certain innate ability to enjoy WILD transitions without noise; value that ability, and don't be concerned about not experiencing the crap they insist you must experience these days.


      As long as I'm here:
      Quote Originally Posted by Sketch1 View Post
      Well, I managed a WILD without the vibrations or the usual oppressive SP effect, just a faint tingling spreading across my skin - perhaps that was the SP, but for some reason it didn't trigger the usual panic attack?
      No, it was likely just a a tingling in your neck, which can happen when you're holding still for a while.

      Anyway, the transition was something of an awkward struggle, but it worked. The LD itself was rather brief and the visibility could have been better (yet another LD at night - I'm beginning to think my subconscious likes the dark because it doesn't have to render so much detail), but it's better than not achieving an LD at all.
      I've come to believe that these poorly lit LD's (I've had a zillion of 'em, myself) might be occurring because -- as can happen with WILD's -- even though the dream has started you are still very close to being physically awake. This means that your normal perception is still active, causing a sort of dark filter through which your dream imagery must pass (dark because that is what your physical eyes are actually seeing, of course). I've found the best way to work with this lies in patience: Stay calm (so you stay asleep) and let your fall into sleep progress until your dreaming mind has the full attention of your perception. Don't try to do anything about it, like ask for light, because you will likely just wake up... and yes, a poorly lit LD is indeed better than no LD at all!
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      This makes me wonder: when did "vibrations" become a part of WILD experiences? Sure, the OBE-tradition (and to a lesser extent the AP-tradition) is filled to the brim with stories of vibrations on the path to going out-of-body, but as a part of WILDing? Did Laberge ever mention anything about vibrations during WILDs?
      So ... is this the real universe, or is it just a preliminary study?

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      LaBerge mentions things about vibrations during WILDs. In his book Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming, in the Attention on Body and Self section of the Falling Asleep Consciously section, he says:

      If you focus on your body while falling asleep, you will sometimes notice a condition in which it seems to undergo extreme distortions, or begins to shake with mysterious vibrations, or becomes completely paralyzed.
      In his Twin Body Technique and his One Body Technique in the same section he says:

      Watch for signs of strange sensations, vibrations, and distortions of your body image.
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    10. #10
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      Hi Sageous, nice to meet you. I've read many of your notes on lucid dreaming, and they're fascinating and informative.
      Quote Originally Posted by Sageous View Post
      I'm a little late to this conversation, but here are a couple of thoughts:
      First: be happy that you are doing WILD's without noticing the noise; Let me assure you that that is a blessing, and not an obstacle, by any measure!
      Quote Originally Posted by Sageous View Post
      So I guess the tl;dr: here is that you might consider yourself blessed with a certain innate ability to enjoy WILD transitions without noise; value that ability, and don't be concerned about not experiencing the crap they insist you must experience these days.
      I think you've misread my first post: I did one WILD years ago accidentally, which was without any transition sensation at all, but I've been unable to repeat the process or understand how it was achieved. I don't like the sleep paralysis because it's something I've suffered from a lot over the years and it gives me the heebie-jeebies, and the heavy vibrations are just incredibly distracting. Ideally I'd like to go in via visual markers alone. Most of my WILD attempts have failed because my pulse and breathing get away from me when I get the SP/vibration - calming my breathing and heart-rate is something I need more practice at. So yes, I'm looking to avoid the noise, but I'm not finding it easy.

      This morning I did manage a WILD with no SP or vibrations, but I'm unsure why this one was different. It may be because I lay on my stomach rather than side or back.

      On the subject of sleep paralysis: I've been experiencing this for nearly thirty years, long before any of my LD attempts, from the odd isolated incident in my twenties to nearly once a week in my mid-to-late forties. It doesn't last for long, but the panic is difficult to contain; usually one hand can move a little (occasionally a foot, too), but very weakly, but after five or ten seconds I'm back to normal. However, sometimes it has acted as a gateway to a false awakening where I attempt to get up and move around my bedroom but find I'm half-paralysed and unable to cry out for help; it always turns out to be a dream of course, but it's frightening enough that I panic when I feel SP hit. For anybody who also suffers from this unwantedly, I decided that part of the reason for the increase in SP events for me in the last few years was that I kept having a little snooze in my arm-chair before going to bed (sometimes waking a 1AM or so), and I think this meant that when I did go to bed my body was still tired enough to try to go back to sleep straight away, but my mind was too awakened to drop back to unconsciousness. Keeping to a more sensible sleep pattern has cut down on these incidents.

      Quote Originally Posted by Sageous View Post
      I've come to believe that these poorly lit LD's (I've had a zillion of 'em, myself) might be occurring because -- as can happen with WILD's -- even though the dream has started you are still very close to being physically awake. This means that your normal perception is still active, causing a sort of dark filter through which your dream imagery must pass (dark because that is what your physical eyes are actually seeing, of course). I've found the best way to work with this lies in patience: Stay calm (so you stay asleep) and let your fall into sleep progress until your dreaming mind has the full attention of your perception. Don't try to do anything about it, like ask for light, because you will likely just wake up... and yes, a poorly lit LD is indeed better than no LD at all!
      My first LD some years ago (DILD) was by far my best in terms of both visual intensity and my own awareness and confidence; in that dream the first thing I did upon becoming lucid was to turn night into day - it took a couple of tries, but it looked very impressive. Not tried it since, though. This morning's LD was, as I said, a bit short, and as I entered the dream riding a flying bicycle (no idea why), most of my attention in the dream went on steering, though having read some of your notes I did take a moment to check my memory awareness, making sure I remembered who I was and what I had done recently.

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      ^^ ookay then; I do seem to have gone off on the wrong path, haven't I? Never mind then! Regardling SP, there does seem to have been a bit of information left out of your OP; but no matter, right? Anyway...

      Since you truly suffer from SP, you may be shying from a possible advantage, because actual SP offers an opportunity that most LDers don't enjoy: when you realize you are, upon waking in SP, still mostly asleep, you can take advantage of your state by (as I believe Laberge said) rolling out of your paralyzed body and into a dream. All you need is to overcome the anxiety/fear that can accompany SP... but I'm guessing you already knew that, so why am I writing it? Also, now I understand you didn't want me to go there anyway; so never mind again!

      Regarding a "noiseless" WILD transition: well, based on your response I'm guessing that what I said so far didn't help (though I do hope you followed that "noise" link), and really I got nothing else right now.

      Regarding the darkness in LD's: I was offering an opinion, and hoping to help you through those gray dreams that often accompany WILD's; sorry it was of little use.

      tl;dr: I'll try to pay better attention next time!



      Quote Originally Posted by dolphin View Post
      LaBerge mentions things about vibrations during WILDs. In his book Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming, in the Attention on Body and Self section of the Falling Asleep Consciously section, he says...
      And there, in a nutshell, is where it all started.
      Last edited by Sageous; 08-07-2019 at 05:35 AM.
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      I didn't mean to sound ungrateful. You're one of the most experienced LDers around, I always find your posts informative. I did leave a lot of stuff out of my first post, which must have been confusing. I'm neither a beginner lucid dreamer, nor a competent old hand - most of my lucid dreaming experiences have been random DILD entries, with my first being far and away my best. Your take on the darkness is probably right, both in cause and in not trying to change it. My first LD was very stable, but later efforts have sometimes faded out just because I've tried standing up. I've not got enough experience to understand why some dreams are stable, whilst others are fragile and difficult to maintain, so it's always useful to here from experienced LDers.

      My WILD attempts continue to be hit or miss.
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      Because I can't get relaxed on my back, but fall asleep too easily on my side/front, I've been experimenting with listening to a radio-drama as an anchor for consciousness, but have had only partial success. This morning as I lay on my stomach and listened to the play, it led to me seeing an unfamiliar bedroom and feeling the tingly sensation in my torso that usually signals REM atonia starting. Though I could see the room clearly and it seemed stable I continued to be able to hear the drama, and unfortunately when I tried moving my body my real body moved and the image collapsed.

      So anybody with experience trying this?

      Does the fact I'm listening to the radio-play anchor me too strongly in the real world, meaning this method will never work?

      Was the solid-seeming bedroom a lucid dream that I failed to enter properly, or would that be classed as an illusion, or proto-dream, or something?

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