Tell me about the Health System in the USA/

[Indecent Exposure]

Hi. I live in the UK and have spent a bit of time in and out of hospital, receiving treatment on the NHS. During that time I've noticed some glaring incompetences in the way certain cases have been handled. However, despite that I have had quite a lot of treatment that I can only assume would have been unaffordable in America, although I'm not sure at all, hence this thread. The reason Ive been prompted into writing this thread is that a few months ago I developed a rash on my arm which wouldn't disappear, so I went to see my GP who told me, in no uncertain terms, that it was definitely a fungal infection and game some cream. I applied the cream as directed and nothing happened, if anything the rash got worse. A month or two later I got another appointment at the same clinic but requested a different doctor, who told me that there was no chance that the rash was fungal and that I most probably had psoriasis. He gave me some corticosteroid cream and that seemed to do the trick. Recently I've developed a number of other symptoms such as pain in my knee and shoulder joint and quite a lot of pain and swelling in my fingers and toes, added to this a lot of muscle fatigue and some level of anxiety that may have been caused by my constant preoccupation with the symptoms. Anyway, I went to the doctor after doing my own research. I had come to the sensible conclusion based on my symptoms and medical history of my family that I was suffering from psoriatic arthritis. He failed to see the link until I pointed it out to him at the end of the appointment, to which he exclaimed, "I hadn't thought of that, that's a really good shout." So he sent me for some tests to rule out other possibilities, the tests supported the diagnosis and he diagnosed me with the condition. He tells me to take some anti inflammatorys. At which point I asked him if he could refer me to a rheumatologist so I could get some more aggressive systemic treatment, instead of treating the disease in an almost useless symptomatic manner. He refused and said that I should take the anti inflammatorys and hope the symptoms subside. The moral of the story, the doctors are incompetent, and its really hard to see a specialist. I'd appreciate some info on how diagnostics and healthcare in general is approached in the US. Is it be easier to see a specialist? Would it cost an arm and a leg? Are doctors in general decent and able to make relatively simple diagnoses? Just curious as to how the system works. Medical insurance and all that. Cheers

[Spartiate]

At which point I asked him if he could refer me to a rheumatologist so I could get some more aggressive systemic treatment, instead of treating the disease in an almost useless symptomatic manner. He refused and said that I should take the anti inflammatorys and hope the symptoms subside. The moral of the story, the doctors are incompetent, and its really hard to see a specialist. You have to be really pushy if you want extra medical care. Here in Canada we need a doctor's referral to see a specialist too. The thing is there are only so many specialists and the doctor can't send every patient of his to one because they're the best at dealing with the patient's illness (keep in mind how many hypochondriacs and worriers a doctor must see). I say give the medicine he gave you a chance. If you still notice a marked negative impact on your life, go back to him and say "Look doc, this isn't working I feel like shit". If he still brushes you off, find a doctor that will help you; but generally doctors are more sympathetic if they still see you suffering after an initial visit. By the way do you have some kind of additional treatment in mind? I just looked up the disease online and it says that the first course of action is to treat with anti-inflammatories.

[Universal Mind]

Come here, Imran. You'll get help right away. Getting in to see a specialist is easy, and we have plenty of them. Capitalism makes lots of people want to be specialists. But hurry. The Democrats just shot off the bullet that is going to assassinate our system in a few years. At that point, the government will be in control. We will be at their mercy. So much for medical freedom.

[ninja9578]

Well, take what the UK has a move it back 70 years. We're about 70 years out of date. An X-ray to see if I broke my thumb two years ago cost my father $700 out of pocket and the insurance company paid $300.

[Spartiate]

Come here, Imran. You'll get help right away. Getting in to see a specialist is easy, and we have plenty of them. Capitalism makes lots of people want to be specialists. But hurry. The Democrats just shot off the bullet that is going to assassinate our system in a few years. At that point, the government will be in control. We will be at their mercy. So much for medical freedom. Bring your wallet, expect to dish out thousands of US$. Specialists have plenty of time to see you because not too many people can afford them. About insurance, I don't think it's available for people that aren't US residents. If it was, you probably wouldn't be able to buy any because you have a pre-existing condition. If somehow you already had insurance, you would have to find a specialist covered by your insurance company and the plan you chose (if it is covered at all). Even then there's no guarantee that the insurance company would pay all or even some of the required treatment. Health care in the US is like going to the casino.

[Universal Mind]

Bring your wallet, expect to dish out thousands of US$. Specialists have plenty of time to see you because not too many people can afford them. No, we have many more specialists than you per capita because there is a future in being a specialist here. That is why people actually get to see them in time to have their lives saved. About insurance, I don't think it's available for people that aren't US residents. If it was, you probably wouldn't be able to buy any because you have a pre-existing condition. If somehow you already had insurance, you would have to find a specialist covered by your insurance company and the plan you chose (if it is covered at all). Even then there's no guarantee that the insurance company would pay all or even some of the required treatment. Health care in the US is like going to the casino. People choose the natures of their policies when they get them. It's not a gamble. Insurance is available to everybody here. We have a country with more freedom than yours. Our government is not as nosy as you are talking about when it comes to insurance.

[Naiya]

Insurance companies are in the business of making money--not giving people health care. The less health care the companies give, the more money they make. They do not make money from providing actual health care; they make money from selling the policies themselves. Our health care system is not centered around the demand and need for health care, nor the supply of the demand for health care from those who provide it. The system is centered around the insurance companies' need to sell policies, but provide as little coverage as possible. In the US, you do NOT normally get a choice of buying insurance. Typically you have a "choice" of taking the insurance your employer provides (if they provide it), or a "choice" of a few companies (depending on your state) through a private plan. However, your eligibility for a private plan is based entirely on your health history--in other words, if you have ever had any health issues in the past or are even a certain age (for example, elderly or a woman of child-bearing age) they can deny you. If you have ever had any health problems in the past, it's considered a pre-existing condition and you will never get private insurance, period. In most states, if your medical problem existed BEFORE you bought the insurance plan, they do NOT have to pay a dime for anything related to that problem. Even having a normal pregnancy is considered a pre-existing condition; my sister was denied a health insurance plan for having two perfectly normal and healthy pregnancies in her past. In the case of insurance companies, the "free market" is a joke, as there is practically no competition. Individual policies make up about 5% of all insurance--the rest is government or employer paid. About 18% of people in the US (roughly 45 million) have no insurance--and therefore no healthcare-- at all because we cannot afford it. An insurance company normally has a cap on how much they will pay, regardless of your situation. So if you have a major problem, you will need to pay the co-pay first (usually hundreds of dollars), then they will pay the rest up until they hit the cap, and after that you have to pay everything else (tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars if you're very sick). Insurance companies get to decide whether or not you need certain health procedures or tests or care. NOT the doctors. In many states the insurance companies are allowed to give doctors incentives to provide you with less care. Lastly, the US is rated pretty low as far as quality of care compared to other industrialized countries. This is because so many are uninsured or underinsured. To sum it all up--if you have a ton of money, you'll get good care. If not, you're lucky to get any at all.

[Spartiate]

UM, I'm not going to argue about it in this man's semi-help thread. Besides, your country is moving ahead without you so it's kind of moot. Fact of the matter is you could probably see a specialist tomorrow in the US, a consult would probably only run you a couple hundred dollars. Definitely in the thousands for treatment though. I don't know of any insurance available for people outside the US, but they wouldn't want to cover you anyways because of your pre-existing health condition.

[Universal Mind]

Companies are free to approve or deny applicants, and applicants have the freedom to choose which companies to apply for. This is a free country. Let's keep it that way. People who have company insurance are free to get other insurance. We do not have a problem here of mass death because of lack of insurance. However, Canada and Britain do have a big problem with people dying because it takes so outrageously long to get life saving treatment and because their governments have so much control that they can keep drugs from being available for being too expensive. That also means that even the people who work hard and stay responsible get screwed. That is not fair. Freedom is a virtue. The group that placed us so low on the healthcare quality scale is a very liberal organization. The truth is that we have the best treatment in the world here and hospitals that want to stay in business and therefore don't deny emergency treatment to anybody. Britain and Canada, on the other hand, have a problem of hospitals turning away ambulances because not enough doctors are at work. There are stories of ambulances going to five hospitals in search of an available doctor. That is out of the question. Our healthcare problems that we do have are caused by many things, including too much already existing government imposition. Frivolous lawsuits and bad personal habits play big roles too. Ron Paul is a former medical doctor and a libertarian senator. He makes excellent points about the American healthcare system.

[ninja9578]

Ron Paul is funny. He thinks he's people. Senators have no idea what they are talking about, they already have socialized health care, as do old people, which is a chunk of the base of the Republican party. “People such as scientist Stephen Hawking wouldn’t have a chance in the U.K., where the National Health Service would say the life of this brilliant man, because of his physical handicaps, is essentially worthless.” ^ Those are the words of a Republican Senator. Obviously a scare tactic, and has absolutely no basis on reality. pst, Dr. Hawking has lived in England his entire life and teaches in Cambridge The last part actually sounds more like the roll of a health review process of an HMO to me.

[Alric]

Yea the congressman who is doctor for like 30 years, and ran his own business and works on the economy subgroups in congress, has no idea what he is taking about. As for our heath care, I know people who have had, carpal tunnel surgery, hysterectomy, hernia surgery, brain surgery to remove cancer, wisdom teeth removed. I have known people who got stitiches for a great number of reasons, people who had kidnay failure, heart failure, prostate cancer. I know multiple people who are on 5+ drugs at a time. In all of the cases, the treatments and surgeries were afforedable. None of them died, or went bankrupt from treatement like people claim happens here. I also know one who nearly died when he got guillain barre. Treatment for the entire time he was in the hospital, and his recovery afterward, cost him 2 million dollars. Luckly he had health insurance which picked up the entire tab. Perhaps a bit ironically that health insurance was paid by the governmet, because he was on his wifes plan and she was in the army.

[Universal Mind]

Ron Paul is a former medical doctor and a libertarian senator. Woops. He's in the House of Representatives.

[jarrhead]

The thing about America that was really messed up in the whole democrat argument of the bill is that... those who truly couldn't afford it, got it free anyways. My family has insurance through the military. It's not too expensive. They pay about 95% of all medication - usually more. Almost everything is close to free for me, because my father bought a good package. It's only a few thousand a year and saves us over 50,000. My mom has gotten in a car wreck and the bill has totaled over $130K. The insurance has covered $110K of that, and we still are going to collect money from auto insurance. Here, if you want health care, you get it. If you don't want it, you don't get it. I had a family member with psoriasis and no insurance, the creams were about $20 a month. I really can't give too much info as I'm so young I don't know too much - but I do know my Carpal Tunnel Surgery, which should take two weeks to get, will now take me eight months.

[dajo]

An X-ray to see if I broke my thumb two years ago cost my father $700 out of pocket and the insurance company paid $300. Wow. Those usually cost me 700$ less then you. The only argument I really understand is that it might not be the best time, for a major change like this (because of the obviously unstable economy) Other than that, I don't think it's very healthy, especially for the patients, if the health sector is purely privatized. (A public health care would still give anyone the opportunity to get a private one).

[jarrhead]

(A public health care would still give anyone the opportunity to get a private one). Ah yes, but then becoming a doctor requires more work and possibly paycuts in the future. Doctor supply will not increase with the younger generation as it should, and there are only so many. My private doctor is already busy as it is, and adding the whole public would make it ridiculously hard to get an appointment. You would get insurance but still be using the same doctors as they are.. And it's also against the constitution - what our country was founded on and what every law must agree with. This is what makes america who we are, and they are completely destroying that freedom. They are also taking paycuts in military salaries to fund this, as well as increasing tax rate. I need to find a new career - both of mine were just botched.

[jarrhead]

Wow. Those usually cost me 700$ less then you. They cost me $640 less than him.

[dajo]

Ah yes, but then becoming a doctor requires more work and possibly paycuts in the future. Why is that? My private doctor is already busy as it is, and adding the whole public would make it ridiculously hard to get an appointment. You would get insurance but still be using the same doctors as they are.. I would imagine this balancing out in time. If there is a demand for more private doctors and health insurances, more will be supplied. And if it works any way like it does here, you 1. can get a privatized insurance and get whatever you want asap or 2. you can get in line, but that doesn't mean that you have to wait for month. Maybe if there was an epidemic..? And it's also against the constitution - what our country was founded on and what every law must agree with. This is what makes america who we are, and they are completely destroying that freedom. Where is it against the constitution and destroying freedom? I would guess that freedom would encompass neither a dictatorship by government nor powerful corporations. Which is what complete 'economic freedom' would lead to. It's just another extreme. They are also taking paycuts in military salaries to fund this, as well as increasing tax rate. I need to find a new career - both of mine were just botched. What career was influenced so hard that you have to re-adjust?

[jarrhead]

Why is that? The reason we study history is because it repeats itself - here's an example. Whenever a job is in much higher demand, the pay gets cut to fund for the program they are working for. Take teachers as a great example. I would imagine this balancing out in time. If there is a demand for more private doctors and health insurances, more will be supplied. And if it works any way like it does here, you 1. can get a privatized insurance and get whatever you want asap or 2. you can get in line, but that doesn't mean that you have to wait for month. Maybe if there was an epidemic..? You obviously know more than me about health care in your own country, but I have never met anybody who liked their health care system in England, Sweden, or Canada, for this exact reason. Again, you know more than I do on this. Where is it against the constitution and destroying freedom? I would guess that freedom would encompass neither a dictatorship by government nor powerful corporations. Which is what complete 'economic freedom' would lead to. It's just another extreme. The bill requires we buy health insurance - it's not all provided. We don't get a choice on what we do. What career was influenced so hard that you have to re-adjust? Both military and medical fields. Actually my career idea was a medical military personnel.

[dajo]

The reason we study history is because it repeats itself - here's an example. Whenever a job is in much higher demand, the pay gets cut to fund for the program they are working for. Take teachers as a great example. I must admit that the pay for doctors has been declining over the last years. But isn't the same thing true in the US. Compared relatively to, say, 25 years ago? You obviously know more than me about health care in your own country, but I have never met anybody who liked their health care system in England, Sweden, or Canada, for this exact reason. It would be very interesting to have someone here, who lives in a country with socialized medicine arguing against it. I have said that in another thread,.. it appears to me that most people are usually pretty satisfied with the way it is.

[ninja9578]

Uh, one half of my family is Canadian. They've had all sorts of medical procedures, ranging from emergency, to simple. They never waited, and they didn't pay a dime. The people who spout out crap about how bad the Socialized medicine system is, have never seen it in action, they use hear-say. UM, I know you lived in Germany, and have said that a few times while attacking Socialized medicine. While you were there, did you incure any medical problems that actually caused you to experience the socialized medical system? The bill requires we buy health insurance - it's not all provided. We don't get a choice on what we do. What bill are you talking about? I never heard of anything like this. The bill that was just passed requires full time employers buy you health care, citizens aren't required to do anything. The anti-socal medicine people are completely paranoid. 1984 was written about the socialization of public services following WWII in England. That's basically what the uneducated right wing thinks will happen.

[jarrhead]

What bill are you talking about? I never heard of anything like this. The bill that was just passed requires full time employers buy you health care, citizens aren't required to do anything. Yup. You still have to buy something for your employees. You HAVE to.

[Universal Mind]

UM, I know you lived in Germany, and have said that a few times while attacking Socialized medicine. While you were there, did you incure any medical problems that actually caused you to experience the socialized medical system? No. I was also too young to know the deal with anybody else having to deal with it. I lived there in the early 70's. What bill are you talking about? I never heard of anything like this. The bill that was just passed requires full time employers buy you health care, citizens aren't required to do anything. Ninja, it often seems like I am your personal news reporter. You somehow missed the biggest controversy surrounding the healthcare bill. This is part of a pattern. http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/HealthCare...ry?id=10176898 Under the health care bill, by 2014 most Americans would be required to have health insurance or pay a fine, with the exception of low-income Americans. Nancy Pelosi attempted to make jail time the consequence of not having health insurance. Fortunately her evil attempt failed. Also, there is going to be a tax of 2.5% of income for health insurance... even if you already pay for your own!!! The anti-socal medicine people are completely paranoid. 1984 was written about the socialization of public services following WWII in England. That's basically what the uneducated right wing thinks will happen. The british economy turned into a welfare state in a hurry, and its economy suffered so bad that they could no longer afford to be an empire. Socialism destroyed the British Empire. Yep. Socialism is a social disease. In many cases, it has led to a totalitarian state. The 1984 government was a totalitarian nation on steroids and a trippy fictitious concept, but totalitarianism and socialism are long time associates. Even in England, the government gets to decide who gets what when and what drugs are cheap enough to be legal. Why do you trust government so much? They are as cold as corporations but without the characteristic of wanting to make as many people as possible like them. They want just enough people to like them as it takes to stay in power (while the people still even control the government's power), while corporations have heart attacks over two cents. Once a government goes full blown totalitarian, the people no longer matter. The government is in total control. Why do you trust government so much?

[dajo]

Edit: Sorry, UM, should have read your post before replying. I will.. Yup. You still have to buy something for your employees. You HAVE to. Yes, it's basically the company paying for most of the insurance. I think that is very fair. In countries like cambodia and indonesia, people are fighting for basic health insurances provided by their employers, to counter the horrid conditions in factories for example. Like minimum wages. Very important as well, imo, and this combination provides everyone with the basics - and medicinal care should be accessable to everyone. If 'having to buy insurance' is really only 'you need an insurance to get a job' and 'the company/workplace has to provide it for the most part', then it's very similar to germany and I see nothing wrong with it. I mean, by this logic, you could also complain about having to pay taxes,.. Or could you elaborate in what other way people are forced? Edit2 : http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/HealthCare...ry?id=10176898 Under the health care bill, by 2014 most Americans would be required to have health insurance or pay a fine, with the exception of low-income Americans. Ok,... anyone have any hard facts about who pays what?

[jarrhead]

If 'having to buy insurance' is really only 'you need an insurance to get a job' and 'the company/workplace has to provide it for the most part', then it's very similar to germany and I see nothing wrong with it. I mean, by this logic, you could also complain about having to pay taxes,.. Or could you elaborate in what other way people are forced? Taxes were a thing established with the very founding of this country. They are absolutely necessary to keep a country running. If it weren't for taxes we would be a third-world country and be pretty screwed. Health insurance, on the other hand, is a demand on your part that serves no purpose to you if you don't want it.

[Mes Tarrant]

As a foreigner living in Korea, I can get better, and HEAPS CHEAPER, health care here than I can in America, the country I'm a citizen of. I'm afraid to go back to the States in case I get sick. How messed up is that? Screw that place. (Sorry I didn't quite read everything in this thread. But that's what I have to say about it. )