Thread: Tell Me About Poker

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The thing with poker, is that at the heart it's just a game of chance

You can deduce certain things - and at times that can be very handy
but in essence it's chance

The skill comes with reading the other players
Reading how they bet, how they act in situations, etc.
and conversely you acting in such a way as to fool others into reading you wrongly

A real amateur player
when he gets a bad hand will instantly fold
and when he gets a good hand, will bet high

He's so transparent, he will never win anything significant
when he has a good hand, he bets high, everyone else folds

The art is being unpredictable, and making your opponents second guess your motives

Originally Posted by Ynot

The thing with poker, is that at the heart it's just a game of chance

You can deduce certain things - and at times that can be very handy
but in essence it's chance

The skill comes with reading the other players
Reading how they bet, how they act in situations, etc.
and conversely you acting in such a way as to fool others into reading you wrongly

A real amateur player
when he gets a bad hand will instantly fold
and when he gets a good hand, will bet high

He's so transparent, he will never win anything significant
when he has a good hand, he bets high, everyone else folds

The art is being unpredictable, and making your opponents second guess your motives

Amen.

But it's still mainly about chance.

I could write a lot here, but I'll try and keep it simple. I'm a very frequent player and I organise the largest annual poker tournament in the UK so you can assume I know what I'm talking about.

Yes, poker is a game of chance, and if you play randomly without much of a strategy (like most beginners), you'll lose money in the long run. What serious poker players want to do is make money in the long run - and to do that you have to play with a strategy. Your strategy will be designed so that in every pot you play in, you will be winning more money than you will be losing in the long run, in each situation. For example, the strategy of going all-in preflop with 7-2 every time it's dealt to you is probably a bad one. You're only going to be called by a better hand, and the big pots you lose against the better hands are going to far outweigh the blinds you will win in the situations when everyone folds (this is a very simple example).

This is probably where I can introduce pot odds. Pot odds are something you want to calculate to see what you should do to make you win more money than you lose in the long run. Let's say you have 4h5h, and the flop comes Ah8hQs. There is only one other person in the hand. The pot is 200. Your opponent bets 100. In this situation, all you have is a flush draw - and at the moment your opponent probably has you beat. But, if you make your flush, you're probably going to win the whole pot. Here we can work out the chances of you making your flush. There are 52 cards in the deck. Five of them are known to you, leaving 47 unknown cards in the deck. Four hearts are out, leaving 9 hearts in the deck. For you to hit your flush on the turn, the odds are 9/47. If you don't hit on the turn, your odds for hitting on the river are 9/46. These numbers are too difficult to use most of the time, and can be simplified. So overall, the chance of hitting another heart on either the turn or river is about one in three, or 33%. Now, we calculate our pot odds. Our opponent has bet 100, making the pot 300. If you call now, you'll be risking 100 to win the pot (300). This is 1 to 3 odds, or one in four, or 25%. If your pot odds are smaller than your chance of making your draw, you should call, because you will make money in the long run.

This is a very very basic description of pot odds in a very simple situation, but how you calculate pot odds and the odds of making your hand are the same in every situation. You basically figure out how many cards in the deck are left that will make you the best hand (or what you think will make you the best hand - your opponent might have you beat anyway), then calculate how much you are investing compared to the pot, and compare the two numbers.

There is of course much more to poker strategy than this; these are just the basics. A really important part of this calculation is implied odds - this is how much money you expect to win if you make your hand. For example, if you think your opponent has aces and you have a flush draw, you are getting very good implied odds, since if you hit your flush and go all in, you're probably going to get called and take all the guy's money. This means that you might call bigger bets on the flop that aren't quite giving you correct odds, just because you think your implied odds justify the call.

There are many other factors to consider in every situation. I'll try and think of some other important ones.

If you raise preflop, and get a couple of callers, most of the time you want to bet out on the flop as well. Most of the time people will fold to this 'continuation' bet and so it turns out to be a very 'positive' (a winning strategy) move.

If you re-raise, and get re-re-raised, you really must only be holding something good to consider continuing in the hand. Not many good players will be re-re-raising with a bluff. Of course, if you're playing with crap players, they may well be bluffing every hand.

Being a tight player (i.e. only playing very good hands like AA, KK, QQ, JJ, AK, AQ) is actually the preferable way to play poker. You may become predictable, but it is still profitable online because people are very loose (play crap hands) and will pay you off, even if they know you probably have a good hand.

Position is very important. If you are on the button, you will act last in every betting round, which means you get information about what everyone else wants to do before you have to act. This is very, very valuable, and you want limit the amount of times you play in bad positions (small blind, big blind or under the gun) and maximise the amount of times you play in good positions (cut off, the button). This means that it's OK to raise on the button with a crappy hand, because people will usually respect that you're in a strong position, and you can usually take down the pot just by taking advantage of this respect.

These are the main things I can think of right now, and there's a LOT of stuff I'm missing out. This is by far the most important stuff, and you can really improve your game just by following a simple though pattern; every time you are in a pot and are about to make a move, consider if you made this move in this situation again and again for infinity (where your opponents may be holding different cards each time), whether you would win money in the long run.

Another helpful way to think about the game is to be thinking about your opponent posessing a possible range of hands. For example, if a tight player raises preflop, you can assume he has a pretty good hand. Then play against him as if he could have any hand in this range - and use any further information you get from him. If he checks the flop, this may narrow his range down to not so great hands, since he would probably have bet with a good hand. This sort of thinking of course always depends on the situation, and who you're playing against. If you're playing online, you're going to be playing a very mathematical game if you want to win in the long run. If you're playing against a group of novice players, probably your friends (which I'm guessing you'll be doing), then the reads you have of people become a lot more important. It's still beneficial to play tightly, and only play good hands, because they probably won't know what they're doing and they'll probably pay you off when you hit big hands. However, since they're youre friends and it's a live game, you can get some more information off them that you won't get online. Online, the only way you can get reads off people is by their betting patterns. In live games you have everything to do with your opponent's body and face, the way the talk, and the way they move their hands when they bet. You probably shouldn't be focussing on reads; instead, allow them to feed into your strategy of analysing every situation and deciding on the right action to take.

I hope this all makes sense - but if it doesn't, it doesn't matter (for one thing I'm very tired as I write this). I have improved mostly from experience. Play more, and you'll get a better idea of which situations you lose in and which situations you win in. It's the simplest way to learn about poker, but it's also the slowest - still, it's a vital part of learning the game.

If you have any questions feel free to ask

Originally Posted by Pensive Patrick

I could write a lot here, but I'll try and keep it simple. I'm a very frequent player and I organise the largest annual poker tournament in the UK so you can assume I know what I'm talking about.

Yes, poker is a game of chance, and if you play randomly without much of a strategy (like most beginners), you'll lose money in the long run. What serious poker players want to do is make money in the long run - and to do that you have to play with a strategy. Your strategy will be designed so that in every pot you play in, you will be winning more money than you will be losing in the long run, in each situation. For example, the strategy of going all-in preflop with 7-2 every time it's dealt to you is probably a bad one. You're only going to be called by a better hand, and the big pots you lose against the better hands are going to far outweigh the blinds you will win in the situations when everyone folds (this is a very simple example).

This is probably where I can introduce pot odds. Pot odds are something you want to calculate to see what you should do to make you win more money than you lose in the long run. Let's say you have 4h5h, and the flop comes Ah8hQs. There is only one other person in the hand. The pot is 200. Your opponent bets 100. In this situation, all you have is a flush draw - and at the moment your opponent probably has you beat. But, if you make your flush, you're probably going to win the whole pot. Here we can work out the chances of you making your flush. There are 52 cards in the deck. Five of them are known to you, leaving 47 unknown cards in the deck. Four hearts are out, leaving 9 hearts in the deck. For you to hit your flush on the turn, the odds are 9/47. If you don't hit on the turn, your odds for hitting on the river are 9/46. These numbers are too difficult to use most of the time, and can be simplified. So overall, the chance of hitting another heart on either the turn or river is about one in three, or 33%. Now, we calculate our pot odds. Our opponent has bet 100, making the pot 300. If you call now, you'll be risking 100 to win the pot (300). This is 1 to 3 odds, or one in four, or 25%. If your pot odds are smaller than your chance of making your draw, you should call, because you will make money in the long run.

This is a very very basic description of pot odds in a very simple situation, but how you calculate pot odds and the odds of making your hand are the same in every situation. You basically figure out how many cards in the deck are left that will make you the best hand (or what you think will make you the best hand - your opponent might have you beat anyway), then calculate how much you are investing compared to the pot, and compare the two numbers.

There is of course much more to poker strategy than this; these are just the basics. A really important part of this calculation is implied odds - this is how much money you expect to win if you make your hand. For example, if you think your opponent has aces and you have a flush draw, you are getting very good implied odds, since if you hit your flush and go all in, you're probably going to get called and take all the guy's money. This means that you might call bigger bets on the flop that aren't quite giving you correct odds, just because you think your implied odds justify the call.

There are many other factors to consider in every situation. I'll try and think of some other important ones.

If you raise preflop, and get a couple of callers, most of the time you want to bet out on the flop as well. Most of the time people will fold to this 'continuation' bet and so it turns out to be a very 'positive' (a winning strategy) move.

If you re-raise, and get re-re-raised, you really must only be holding something good to consider continuing in the hand. Not many good players will be re-re-raising with a bluff. Of course, if you're playing with crap players, they may well be bluffing every hand.

Being a tight player (i.e. only playing very good hands like AA, KK, QQ, JJ, AK, AQ) is actually the preferable way to play poker. You may become predictable, but it is still profitable online because people are very loose (play crap hands) and will pay you off, even if they know you probably have a good hand.

Position is very important. If you are on the button, you will act last in every betting round, which means you get information about what everyone else wants to do before you have to act. This is very, very valuable, and you want limit the amount of times you play in bad positions (small blind, big blind or under the gun) and maximise the amount of times you play in good positions (cut off, the button). This means that it's OK to raise on the button with a crappy hand, because people will usually respect that you're in a strong position, and you can usually take down the pot just by taking advantage of this respect.

These are the main things I can think of right now, and there's a LOT of stuff I'm missing out. This is by far the most important stuff, and you can really improve your game just by following a simple though pattern; every time you are in a pot and are about to make a move, consider if you made this move in this situation again and again for infinity (where your opponents may be holding different cards each time), whether you would win money in the long run.

Another helpful way to think about the game is to be thinking about your opponent posessing a possible range of hands. For example, if a tight player raises preflop, you can assume he has a pretty good hand. Then play against him as if he could have any hand in this range - and use any further information you get from him. If he checks the flop, this may narrow his range down to not so great hands, since he would probably have bet with a good hand. This sort of thinking of course always depends on the situation, and who you're playing against. If you're playing online, you're going to be playing a very mathematical game if you want to win in the long run. If you're playing against a group of novice players, probably your friends (which I'm guessing you'll be doing), then the reads you have of people become a lot more important. It's still beneficial to play tightly, and only play good hands, because they probably won't know what they're doing and they'll probably pay you off when you hit big hands. However, since they're youre friends and it's a live game, you can get some more information off them that you won't get online. Online, the only way you can get reads off people is by their betting patterns. In live games you have everything to do with your opponent's body and face, the way the talk, and the way they move their hands when they bet. You probably shouldn't be focussing on reads; instead, allow them to feed into your strategy of analysing every situation and deciding on the right action to take.

I hope this all makes sense - but if it doesn't, it doesn't matter (for one thing I'm very tired as I write this). I have improved mostly from experience. Play more, and you'll get a better idea of which situations you lose in and which situations you win in. It's the simplest way to learn about poker, but it's also the slowest - still, it's a vital part of learning the game.

If you have any questions feel free to ask

im a grinder and agree with pensive although yes he is missing alot of other facts .
Poker is both skill and chance/luck FACT - you simply cannot win with luck in the long run.

Poker's not mainly down to luck, lots of skill involved, mathematical, psychological, and just pure understanding of the game. If you want to learn about poker, given how much there is to learn you need to pick a game, such as NL Holdem, then a structure that you want to learn first, either cash or tournaments. If you want to learn how to play good tournament poker I would suggest you start with Harrington on Holdem. Its a good solid introduction and it's really well written. After that, play online in the small stakes, and at the same time do quite a lot of studying and you'll begin to improve rapidly.

If anyone here is in the UK and currently a student, look up the UK Student Poker Championship. It's a national event which attracted 350 entrants this year. First prize is a ticket to the WSOP main event with flights and hotels included. It's held in April so you just missed it this year but check out ukstudentpoker.com for more info about the tournament if you're interested.

my last comment made no sense whatsoever..

the way how I play it is that firstly:

I know what hands to play and not to play generally (probabilities, yay)

second:

I either know the people I'm playing with or I try to get to know them
and then decide wether or not I play hands that are "in between" and
occasionaly try to throw them off. This usually works pretty well for me.

And alcohol makes me a terrible poker player, I get way to risky