Thread: The Vigil System

Wait, so you replace sleep with what, exactly? Polyphasic? Otherwise you are just damaging your brain.
The "pass through a threshold" where you feel comfortable is because your brain has just gone and used extra energy in order to avoid the lack of sleep, which in turns means its suffering damage. The longer you stay awake for, the greater the damage so I truly hope you are not doing that.

Also not sure if you are stating to be always lucid or that true lucidity is to have no dreams at all is the true state. If the former, then don't care, but the latter is just not true. We are always dreaming whether we like it or not, remembering the dream is another story. Especially if you skip sleep, because then your body will enter REM much faster and have longer periods of it, you are just forgetting the dreams in that scenario.

Note: People who have some brain problems will stop having dreams, but as far as I know this is a rare problem/disease.

I am saying that lucidity in dreams is increased by being lucid in life. And that to be lucid in life you have to be comfortably aware. A technique that has brought me this state is vigil. I am not saying to do this for 2, 3 days without sleeping. Everyone know their limits and possibilities. It is a matter of recognizing the existence of and getting familiarized with the state, which is easily obtainable, depending on will alone. It is a matter of teaching the brain, getting in control of it.

I can agree with "we are dreaming all the time we just don't remember it", but I reckon that to remember dreams might be an impediment to achieve an emotional well being. The memory of a bad dream, for example, an oppressive, bizarre and recurring one which has clearly overrided its capacity of being a tool to self-knowledge is not a good thing for the sum-total of being, specially emotionally. By this, a non remembered dream is an unexistent one. It may be as you say, a radical technique, but for some, who sleep to much both awake and asleep, and the ones that are willing to stretch and try all the possibilities, perturbing the system is a way to lucidity.

To conclude, the lucidity obtained with the method is for the waking state, awareness in life. The new ways and habits thus made possible and the unfolding novelty on day-to-day life will give way to a superior dream life (because waking life feeds the contents of the dream state), thus making much easier, desirable and pleasant a lucid dream.

I see, in which case have you tried meditation? A lot of people find success in achieving lucidity in life through this. I used extreme measures for my technique when it first happened, but wouldn't recommend such methods to anyone and so thought of ways to get there through safer ways.

Likewise I believe you should promote the less extreme method instead of the more extreme one. While it worked for you, we are here to better the methods and lessen the risks/time no?

Either way, how to recognize a dream that has overrided its self-knowledge capactiy? I think this would be important to promote people from not remembering these then.

Indeed, meditation has not been a great technique for me, I find it completely boring. The vigil seems more easy for achieving relaxed awareness.

About achieving lucid dream, an easy way for me is napping, instead of going full cycle. I snap out of body very easily just by napping, with the body very relaxed. And that is not a dream. I believe you are truly in another dimension fully aware and able to move at will in it. The puzzle is to keep the balance between not getting too emotionally disturbed about anything, and not losing your focus, so that the dream dimension doesn't crumble and keeps its continuity.

A dream that has overrided its capacity is one that one keeps on having and is already very much aware of its contents but is not being able to come to grips with it in life, mainly because of a lack of lucidity in the waking state.

Hmm what kind of meditation? The common one?

If you truly believe that it is not a dream, then it is not a lucid dream. I have talked about that a bunch of times, it would be lucid OBE/AP but not a LD. Although I don't hear many people using naps for that purpose, generally its WILD. Is there anything special you do for it to work?

I see, reocurring dreams. In which case yeah using waking lucidity is a better approach.

Yes I tried the regular meditation, with sitting position and trying to keep the attention on the breath and try to reach non-thought. It is very boring and demanding. And utterly ineffective. To be still is something of an exercise to me. But I don't deny the validity and benefits possible if one masters the practice. But still, the meditative state is a non-doing, so "practicing" meditation is kind of counter-intuitive and a "doing" that blocks the meditative state. The state can be achieved by many other methods, not only meditation.

There are levels of lucidity in the dreaming state. The lowest possible would be that of the normal dream, on which we are mere spectators of random events with some motif of our unconscious being processed into our awareness, for we to be able to keep in touch to our deep being. On this post http://www.dreamviews.com/attaining-...ing-dream.html I try to explain the two kinds of different possibilities within the dream realm. I state that the regular uncontrolled/spectator-mode dream is not actually the dream experience per se but the recollection of memories we form from the dream experience in the moment right before waking.

To complete: there is really the rare moment in a regular dream when you get the sense of knowing that you are dreaming, but the dream itself is most likely to collapse lasting just a few moments further, because somehow you are stuck on that dimension and not fully in control of your being, and it becomes just overwhelming. In my theory, this crumbling of the dream occurs because you have not been fully lucid in the waking life for a start, and to want to be lucid in the dream realm just by methods of inducing and so on seems not to be the full answer for achieving lucid states. It is deeper than simple wilds and dilds and what method have you, although they are good starters and summarizers of the very VERY basics of the art.

I present to you, the myths of meditation! 10 Myths About Meditation
What you were doing was most likely the boring/exhuasting/wrong kind, so I can understand why the aversion towards it. So basically, you re-found the correct type of meditation only lol

Not to offend but that is how dreams work for you. A lot of people find it takes more effort to be in expectator mode than simply command the dreams around them. Also the "This experience takes 30 minutes between sleep and awakening" seems to be false for me and many others. Not to mention it is well known that we dream in states other than deep sleep, it just may feel different. Then again you didn't give the full spectrum on the thread of these levels, so my knowledge is limited.

Also how would I classify? My lucid dreams don't collapse, yet I wouldn't say I am fully lucid in the waking state? This includes the regular/non-regular you described. Dunno about the other kind.

The "regular dream" of "spectator mode" is the most common type which everybody experiences, even if very rarely for some and very regularly for others. It is the kind that even your actions and reactions to the succession of events, (it can be a party, a moment in your school, whatever, an interaction with someone) are not consciously being made through a proper evaluation of the situation and proper choosing of the action to be taken but rather random or reflexive responses. Lucidity is the sense we have of control of our reality, where we are not under manipulation or depending on anyone else's expectations towards our own actions and not projecting expectations towards or manipulating others.

Have you tried, in a lucid dream to only watch yourself move about doing the will of the dream? That is what I mean, to just look at the world from whithin your current dream body without taking any action, just observing and analysing whatever that may be done at the time by your dream body. This isn't as common, since generally when one reaches lucidity the common is to want to stop the dream plot and do goals, rather than follow the plot as a 3rd party and watch/study it and is what I was referring to.

Still would like to know how I classify in your view, and about the other dream levels you didn't explain in the other post.

That is a good suggestion my friend. I will try to just observe what happens next time I get lucid. Although my experience of getting lucid in a dream doesn't have a "plot" since it is not the regular kind of dream I refer to, but rather a place, where I am fully aware of the sense of being dreaming. To me, it always occurs in the beginning of the sleep cycle, whereas the other kind of dream(the passive/recollection) occurs in the end of the sleep cycle. I am able then to move around, float and fly at will. But I never tried anything else. I also look at the objects. It is important for the sustain of the dream to be emotionally still at least. Bad emotions are certainly undesirable and contribute to shutting the dream down. I am not sure about euphoria, but feelings of Love must be quite sustaining.

Can you point exactly what do you want me to clarify?

The implication is your being builds your dream with the emotion charge of your memories of waking life. Thus, you cannot create the building blocks of the dream but you must acquire them through living your life. And to live your life at your best requires you to be fully present through a relaxed state of focus. A paradoxical embrace of life and dream.

I am interested how you would clasify others under your dream levels.

You just talked about an interesting thing; emotions. I for one like to use negative emotions in all of my dreams and don't really have problems with the dream destabilizing or shutting off.

Also if you don't have a plot, what about dissipating your conciousness and expanding it on the dream itself? I call that "Scan" and serves the purpose of observing since you no longer possess a body that interacts with the dream unless that is the intent.

About the dream levels, I have to admit I am speculating on this levels, because these would involve quite subjective areas of dream experience such as true astral travel and so on. I'd rather keep our attentions on the 2 kinds of dream I am used to have, both taking place on each extreme of the linear process of the sleep cycle.

1.The complete awareness triggered in a dream realm a few moments after getting asleep.

2. The recollecting of deep states of sleep where dreams occur,which I call the regular and popular kinds of dream. These are not quite experienced with complete lucidity but are the recollection taking place on the moments preceding the waking moment.

There is a third kind and that is the merging of the two former. It happens rarely and it takes place in regular dream. I get the sense of being dreaming and then there is a plot and awareness but not for long.

By negative emotion I refer to feelings of passivity and impotence. Not raw fear or anger. Cause these are somewhat "positive", or rather active charges in the spectrum of "negative" emotions.

Can you explain what kinds of emotions you use and explain a bit more about the scan?

Yeah about that, I have yet to come with a definition of astral travel that differentiates from one of the many dream experiences I have had, would you like to give that a try?

1.- I still don't see how you make a difference between this and 2, as I have this in the middle of the night? So perhaps you just need to experience this at a different sleep cycle?
2.- What constitutes complete lucidity?

Yes, I was referring to these feelings as well. Generally the ones that come from depression; I have used these in dreams a number of times before, without it going wild or destabilizing at all. Note that I use everything as means of fighting, so obviously that depression of feeling like not taking action and weakness are also used for this.

Have you had dreams without a body? In these, your mind is there floating in 3rd person observing a part of the dream. Scan takes it a step further, that part of your mind starts to blend with the parts of the dream and then whatever you have come into contact with is no longer another part of the dream, but also you. In this case, since it is "you" you can understand and feel what said object is going through. Basically, the old saying that "you are the dream" taken a bit too literal.

The difference of them is the "real-time" sense of the 1st experience compared to the spectating and "remembering" sense of the 2nd experience.

Proper evaluation of the situation and freedom of choice of the action to be taken or not would be a good definition of lucidity.

By thinking of it now, I realize that when I am on the floor in a dream I have a body, because I can see it and move it. When I levitate over objects and furniture I still have a body, I can feel it. But when I fly, there is no body but rather that crazy experience you said of merging with the scenery and usually it ends the dream because I get the sense that I am the one who is creating that world. The key for this situation is to remain completely detached and let it unfold naturally, which is almost impossible to us occidental minds.

Yes, in all my lucids there is a sense of 1st experience. The rembering comes mostly from non-lucids or really, really short lucids that I was forcefully woken up from, which is why to me, that distinction makes no difference.

And again, these happen in lucids during the early sleep cycles, the middle and later ones. I find your way of dreaming very interesting, since you note a difference based on waking time that seems to be global on dream-content and lucidity.

Is it? I would associate it more with doing it in such a broad area at the start. I think it is much easier to get detachment by using Scan when you still have a body on something small. Maybe touch a chair and try to feel its present/past/future with your being and so on, then you can move over to something bigger like the enviroment.

Thank for your recommendations and your insightful accounts my friend. I will put them to practice and observation on subsequent experiences.

I believe you are inferring an interesting point that is the broadening of consciousness that occurs when the scan is happening. It is as if consciousness seizes to be a point like a monad with its manifested body and becomes broader and unfamiliar to our regular senses.

I believe you are familiar with Carlos Castaneda, given your nationality. His master teaches the way to keep consciousness in a certain place to not make reality coherence go astray. It is all very interesting. He says that depending on the place of agglutination of a stream of light in the light body of a person, the dimension experienced shifts accordingly.

Castañeda? Yes I am familiar with his name, and have the book. But have never read any of it yet... plan to, just have yet to find the time to <.<

I had another of the 2nd kind of experience few days ago... I cannot quite remember now what happened in there. I just want to point the peculiarities.

I went to sleep and made some respiration exercises very briefly nothing serious. Just deep breaths to make the heart to be warm. Then I slept and suddenly kind of realized my body was sleeping although I had this little slice of consciousness in that darkness, and I thought "ok, ill try to wake up". I immediately was lifted from the body and at the same time remembered Hukif's advice to just observe what happened. I did it. I went on flying, but I cannot remember right now what else happened. I think the experience just faded rapidly and I woke up.

But just to point out the potential of ideas implanted by minds alike through experience exchange and advices and so on.

Cheers!