Thread: What is FILD really? [BUSTED]

I just re-read it, and it should be a sub tutorial of DEILD. It's just DEILD but you're moving your fingers. I'm surprised I didn't see that before...

I always thought it was a WILD technique. Um, I think that someone who uses FILD technique would become lucid no matter what now, DEILD is never miss. Maybe it should be added as a variation within the DEILD tutorial itself.

Good point. The sooner you reduce the number of techniques, the better.

Originally Posted by adraw

Good point. The sooner you reduce the number of techniques, the better.

A big part of the reason that I chose to have the tutorials redone. Too many duplicates. I noticed that you put FILD and DEILD together in your WILD guide. And BTY, I love your flow chat.

Strictly speaking, even DEILD is a sub-type of WILD (going directly from a waking state to a dreaming state while remaining conscious). In the broadest sense there is only DILD and WILD, and various techniques for achieving each one. For example, MILD is a technique for achieving DILD, and VILD is a technique for achieving WILD. A proper hierarchy might look something like this:

Code:

            Induction Techniques
               /            \
              /              \
           DILD              WILD
           / \                | \
          /   \               |  \
       MILD  Reality Checks   |   \
                            VILD  DEILD
                                    |
                                    |
                                   FILD

This isn't complete, but you get the idea.

By the way, I'm glad that time is being taken to organize the tutorials. The old tutorials section looked quite intimidating. If we can make it more accessible, we may not get quite so many people starting threads asking what WILD is, "is this a lucid dream," etc.

Also, just thinking out loud, but when all is said and done it may be helpful to make a new Lucid Dreaming FAQ and sticky it in the newbie forum. This FAQ would be similar to the thread of the same name in the tutorial archive, but more concise, and in answering the questions it should favor linking the reader to the relevant tutorials (and Dream Views home page articles - let's please not forget those!!) rather than answering it directly in the FAQ.

I'm starting to stray off topic now, but I may PM the dream guide team with some more thoughts. I may even offer to write this FAQ up myself, but on the other hand, I am pretty busy this semester. We'll see

Sounds good. Yeah, DEILD is a type of WILD, but it's different enough to be considered its own technique. I'm thinking that FILD isn't different at all.

I agree, it's useful to distinguish between the two, especially in the context of "how-to" tutorials.

Regarding FILD, it's been a while since I've read the specifics of the technique, but I seem to remember getting the impression that it worked off a general "anchoring" principle that would be applicable outside of FILD solely. However, FILD is popular enough that I still think it deserves individual attention.

Originally Posted by DuB

Strictly speaking, even DEILD is a sub-type of WILD (going directly from a waking state to a dreaming state while remaining conscious). In the broadest sense there is only DILD and WILD, and various techniques for achieving each one. For example, MILD is a technique for achieving DILD

Yes, I'd like to point out this tutorial by BillyBob that groups the tecniques like you say. I think it can be updated with some new tecniques.




An Overview of all Lucid Induction Methods

Contents:


. "WILD"

• Mental WILDs
  
  . .▪ "Quick"
  . . . . . ◦ DEILD
  . . . . . ◦ Visual WILD
  . . . . . ◦ Tactile WILD
  
  . . .▪ "Slow"
  . . . . . ◦ Original WILD
  . . . . . ◦ HIT
  .

• Physical WILDs
  
  . .▪ "Quick"
  . . . . . ◦ FILD
  
  . .▪ "Slow"
  . . . . . ◦ FAT

. "DILD"

• WBTB
  .
  . .▪ Traditional WBTB
  
  . .▪ Chanting
  
  . .▪ Dream Incubation
  .
• Other
  
  . .▪ Traditional DILD
  
  . .▪ Increasing Awareness
  
  . .▪ Self Hypnosis
  
  . .▪ Before Bed

.

I re-read the FILD tuts and one made it sound like you just had to awake at any time during the night. The other sounded like a DEILD with wiggling fingers. I'm going to do some experimenting with this. I figured I'd try to FILD 12 times. 6 times at the end of a dream (during a REM period) and 6 times during a non-REM period. Maybe this will clear up wether it is a technique in and of itself or just a DEILD.

Well, i think you got it expained quite well.
But i'll to to explain it VERY simple. What i did is just that I got to bed and when i felt that i was beginning to drift off to sleep i just moved my indexfinger and the Phuc*you finger a little bit and then next time i opened my eyes i was at the same place, well no.
Not really, i was in the same place but in my mind

Originally Posted by Oros

Well, i think you got it expained quite well.
But i'll to to explain it VERY simple. What i did is just that I got to bed and when i felt that i was beginning to drift off to sleep i just moved my indexfinger and the Phuc*you finger a little bit and then next time i opened my eyes i was at the same place, well no.
Not really, i was in the same place but in my mind

Were you going to sleep, or were you just waking up? Because what you described sounded much a DEILD to me.

Me too

I've had some good progress with my mini-trial of FILD. I've had 5 attempts so far. Three were just at random times, not at the end of a dream. Those tries just cost me sleep and left me with tired finger muscles. Eventually I just gave up and went to sleep, after between 10-30 minutes. The two attempts that happened after a dream all had the result of a quick, easy LD, just as if I were DEILDing. One of the times I couldn't flex my finger muscles at all, since SP was still in effect.

I want to hold off on passing judgement until I've done at least a dozen of these attempts.

Originally Posted by seeker28

I've attempted FILD quite a few times and must say I'm not impressed.

If I attempt it when I haven't just had a dream nothing happens other than I loose some sleep. One of the FILD tuts made it sound like it could be done at any time. I've found this to not be true.

If I do it when I've just woken from a dream it works just like a DEILD, except I'm tensing my finger muscles for part of the time. Naturally, SP takes hold after a few seconds and I can't do it anymore.

Honestly I've seen nothing of value to the finger wiggling. Maybe for someone else it would distract from the sensations of SP?

Also, through my own research, twitching the fingers does help in one specific instance. If you happen to get stuck during a WILD attempt in partial paralysis, twitching the muscles do cause them to paralyze because the body things that you are dreaming. However, twitching the fingers will only finish the paralysis of the fingers and you have to repeat for all muscle groups.

Twitching the fingers actually decreases the chances of getting to sleep paralysis because of the way that the body tests to see if you are asleep. A twitching muscle signals that you are not asleep and the body will reset it's internal clock.

So...

FILD

Sorry but I must disagree. It's actually a WILD variation, as also in the same sense as a Deild is too. The difference is that you're using physical movement to keep conscious while falling asleep while the other is not moving. Yes, FILD is easier to do when waking up because you're closer to the border of sleep, like Deild, but you could easily say flip flops and combat boots are the same because they're both footwear then.

Fild can be accomplished without sleeping right away, but Deild is meant to only work right when awakening. If you think of it, they're the complete opposite. Two different branches on the same tree. They're both techniques that require to work at the border of sleep, but one requires movement to stay conscious while the other requires for NO movement. In the end, they're just two fast induced WILDs with two different approaches with a link that compares them and that is logically the border as sleep, as every technique that is induced from a waking state is.

Have you done this?

Our research showed that that doesn't work. Sleep paralysis won't come if you are twitching. The ones who tried it know how to get to sleep paralysis and do it often, but it wouldn't come while twitching fingers except for DEILDs, in which case they were already in partial paralysis.

If some people manage to do it, is the moving of the fingers doing anything other than keeping you conscious, because there are other ways to do that that don't impede SP.

As many have said, there are only two ways to induce lucid dreams. Either one, you go directly from waking to dreaming, which is WILD. Or two, you do something during the daytime that will later help you to remember that you're in a dream, DILD.

____

All of the various WILD methods are just creative ways to help people relax and anchor themselves until they enter a lucid dream.
Sure, some WILD methods will allow you to enter the dream more quickly or more consciously than others, but they all do exactly the same thing.

All of the DILD methods, as Stephen LaBerge pointed out, are just ways to give people a better likelihood of realizing the dreamstate for what it is when they are in it. Things like reality checking, MILDing, and WBTBing are just different means to he same end: to cause people to be more critical of their immediate environment.

____

The reason there are so many different methods that all do the same thing is because there are so many different kinds of people. The methods are merely stepping stones. There is no correct method, or a 'perfect' thing to do in order to get everyone lucid dreams.
We all view reality in a different way, so we each have our own way to get DILDs. We all think in different ways, so we each have our own way to WILD.

Just keep in mind that there are only two basic ways to get lucid dreams, DILD and WILD, and view all of these "techniques" for inducing lucid dreams as all being equal means to an end. Some may seem silly to you, but hey, they must make sense to someone. Thus they are valid.
We are each individuals, let individuals be individuals. Give people all the information and let them choose which is the best for them. Just make sure they understand this stuff I just mentioned, otherwise a bunch of ignorant biases may pop up.

We're doing that, we just don't think FILD works. Twitching muscles prevents SP unless you are already there. We just don't want people spending an hour twitching their hands trying to WILD and just ending up with sore fingers.

Nice to see you posting in the forums again Billybob

Originally Posted by ninja9578

We're doing that, we just don't think FILD works. Twitching muscles prevents SP unless you are already there. We just don't want people spending an hour twitching their hands trying to WILD and just ending up with sore fingers.

Nice to see you posting in the forums again Billybob

I've gotten FILD to work several times.
I haven't exactly hooked myself up to a scientific instrument or anything, but I believe what happens is that you're so tired that you fall pretty much instantly into sleep paralysis. Since your not actually supposed to be moving your fingers with FILD (just sending out very minute signals to you hand), when SP hits this signal is transferred to the dreambody. Presto, lucid dream.


Like I said, I have no way of knowing whether this is true or not, but I do know that I've used FILD to induce many lucid dreams.

Yeah, if you are really tired (like just woken up for a DEILD) you are probably already in partial paralysis and that's the only time twitching does anything.

More study is needed.

For me the only time FILD worked is when I awoke from a dream and stayed still except for sending the minute "twitch" message to my finger muscles. Then it worked in seconds -- like a DEILD, but with "twitch" messages.

I will be the first to point out that I am only one person and my experience with FILD is far from scientific proof wether or not it is a seperate method from DEILD or not.

FILD is mostly agreed to be done right after waking up from a dream and still in REM sleep. However, there are some differences between it and DEILD.

I read the DEILD tutorial, and it said that you wake up from a dream on your own and can't move. In FILD, this doesn't matter, and you can set an alarm clock if you want.

In FILD, the fingers have multiple purposes. They are mainly meant to distract you from the transition from awake to asleep. By focusing on your fingers, you are less aware of the transition, and less likely to involuntarily twitch and alert your body of your consciousness. The fingers are also meant to create an environment into which you transition to. By twitching your fingers, you fall asleep still twitching, and start dreaming that you are in bed moving your fingers. It gives an environment to transition to, tactile evidence to help define this environment, and a method to both keep yourself from falling asleep unconscious and from reacting to the sleep transition and staying awake.

Also, a word of clarification; you do not have to only very subtly move your fingers for FILD to work. You can make a large motion, and the technique will still work; it did for me. I find if I make too small a motion, I will fall asleep too easily. I'm not sure at which point I'm not actually moving my fingers anymore, but I feel through the whole transition as if I am very definitively moving my fingers with a pretty large amount of force.

Originally Posted by BillyBob

As many have said, there are only two ways to induce lucid dreams. Either one, you go directly from waking to dreaming, which is WILD. Or two, you do something during the daytime that will later help you to remember that you're in a dream, DILD.

____

All of the various WILD methods are just creative ways to help people relax and anchor themselves until they enter a lucid dream.
Sure, some WILD methods will allow you to enter the dream more quickly or more consciously than others, but they all do exactly the same thing.

All of the DILD methods, as Stephen LaBerge pointed out, are just ways to give people a better likelihood of realizing the dreamstate for what it is when they are in it. Things like reality checking, MILDing, and WBTBing are just different means to he same end: to cause people to be more critical of their immediate environment.

____

The reason there are so many different methods that all do the same thing is because there are so many different kinds of people. The methods are merely stepping stones. There is no correct method, or a 'perfect' thing to do in order to get everyone lucid dreams.
We all view reality in a different way, so we each have our own way to get DILDs. We all think in different ways, so we each have our own way to WILD.

Just keep in mind that there are only two basic ways to get lucid dreams, DILD and WILD, and view all of these "techniques" for inducing lucid dreams as all being equal means to an end. Some may seem silly to you, but hey, they must make sense to someone. Thus they are valid.
We are each individuals, let individuals be individuals. Give people all the information and let them choose which is the best for them. Just make sure they understand this stuff I just mentioned, otherwise a bunch of ignorant biases may pop up.

This makes the most sense of ANYTHING i've read on this forum so far.
Well done for being a lucid balanced individual.

As i'm new and am not here to make friends or prove anything,
I'll say things exactly as i see them.

The problem here is not which method works, it's that certain individuals in this forum have come up with thier own "new" methods and are in competition with each other.

Most of the arguing here is more about ego and people trying to prove they are "the one with the best method" rather than actually educate and share information wisely.

If you don't agree with me, just read the title of this thread. The childish nature and the assumption that there is anything to be "busted" proves the point. Is this a competition? No. It's a group of people trying to learn how to lucid dream in the most successful way for themselves.

Personally i don't take methods posted in forums all that seriously. I'd far rather go for well documented, scientifically researched methods that have been published by respected members of the lucid dream community.
Those being the methods of people like S LaBerge, K Hearne, D Love, C Green etc.

The whole idea of coming up with "new" methods as a way to get a badge of honour in a forum seems a little pointless and reminds me more of schoolyard behaviour than legitimate research and wanting to improve the field as a whole.

I myself will be sticking with WBTB, MILD, CAT and the other well researched methods and then trying variations on these using my own intelligence. The difference between these 3 methods is that they all have a unique concept behind them. Most methods here (like DEILD, FILD etc.) seem to be hybrids or variations on these already established methods.

Lawl. I have done FILD before. I tried DEILD, and it didn't work. (I woke up randomly) I did the FILD thing, and it worked splendidly. I waited until I saw HI, then started twitching my fingers. They were moving WAY more than they were supposed to, not just twitching, almost like a scissor movement. But sure enough, I felt a shift in my consciousness, and I did a RC. I was asleep in my bed, moving my fingers. I got up and started the dream :3