Thread: The stages of Sleep Paralysis

Originally Posted by Thor

I've seen posts from people who were scared to WILD because of the paralyzation they would allegedly experience. This is very bad when you consider that such an experience is in fact very unlikely, and there's nothing to be afraid of.

I think that may be the explanation for why there are so many SP threads floating around. It makes sense that people have questions about sleep paralysis because they are frightened of it. It is a hot topic, not because people think it is important, but because it is terrifying. They want to discuss their experience with it, or their apprehension of it.

I don't see that as a bad thing. Discussing a frightening experience is a natural way of overcoming the fear.

I know frightening sleep paralysis was what led me to lucid dreaming in the first place. I also know that it is always a crazy experience. Even if it was totally unrelated to lucid dreaming, it is still an altered state of consciousness that many people would be curious about and, therefore seek to experience.

On another, unrelated point,

Here you are committing the big mistake of assuming that just because you continue dreaming you would have to be in REM sleep. This is not the case; you can have perfectly fine dreams in sleep stages 1 and 2 as well, including lucid dreams. When you awaken and fall asleep again it takes at least 15 minutes before you reach REM sleep, otherwise it's SOREM.

...

No, you don't know that until you have actually tried to move your real body. The fact that you are having a lucid dream does not mean that you are in REM sleep. And if you are a normal individual REM atonia occurs exclusively in REM sleep.

I think this is a little misleading, and want to clarify. When you WILD, you can actually hold onto your consciousness through the initial phases of sleep. 15 minutes, in your explanation. When you do this, you can experience the entrance into REM sleep, and REM atonia. Therefore, sleep paralysis in WILD is an experience of REM atonia. You are forgetting the very definition of WILD, that you remain conscious through the process.

I think you are confusing 'normal' sleep progression with intentionally 'abnormal' WILD. Most medical research you will find will only addresses the normal progression. They label anything else as a sleep disorder, and, therefore attempt to categorize it separately.

Not to mention the fact that even the medical community uses Sleep Paralysis and Sleep Atonia interchangeably.

Definition of Atonia, REM sleep

Atonia, REM sleep : A frightening form of paralysis that occurs when a person suddenly finds himself or herself unable to move for a few minutes, most often upon falling asleep or waking up. Commonly called sleep paralysis, the condition is due to an ill-timed disconnection between the brain and the body.
The symptoms of sleep paralysis include sensations of noises, smells, levitation, paralysis, terror, and images of frightening intruders. Once considered very rare, about half of all people are now believed to experience sleep paralysis sometime during their life.

People around here are not using the term outside of its accepted definition.

Most everything in this thread goes against BillyBobs tech to WILD. You guys are over analyzing it waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much.

Originally Posted by Tweek

Most everything in this thread goes against BillyBobs tech to WILD. You guys are over analyzing it waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much.

I respect Billybob, and I love everything he's written. But using 'SP' isn't the only way to WILD. There are a bunch of different techniques. They don't all need to use 'SP', that's what we're talking about. People who are misled and over analyze what they should be feeling while WILDing when they don't need to be focusing on that at all, and to the point where it may even be causing them problems.

Originally Posted by Tweek

Most everything in this thread goes against BillyBobs tech to WILD. You guys are over analyzing it waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much.

Even Bob has made a WILD guide that has no use of SP. So saying that is not really correct.

I think that another reason they make SP threads and ask what it was (If this has been said, then forgive me), is because they don't know what it is. You think the noobs are going to look it up when they experience it for the 1st time? And don't get me wrong; some of them do. But the majority are going to look to others with more experience to help them out. That's just how it goes.

Also, the reason why I think it's talked about almost religiously is because a lot of members find SP to be an amazing experience. Some that have experienced it, myself included, thought it was a bit scary at first, but after it was over thought it was the coolest thing we'd ever felt. Others find it a relaxing, tranquil ride.

Whatever the case, whenever I see someone posting an SP topic, I know there will be a lot of members to help explain. Even when no explanation is needed, it's still fun to discuss individual experiences. And if I feel like I helping or I need a post boost (Shock!!), one click and I direct them to Seeker's tutorial.

Tear apart this post if you want; it's 12:44 AM and I'm sleep deprived. I get risky when I'm sleep deprived.

Originally Posted by Robot_Butler

I don't see that as a bad thing. Discussing a frightening experience is a natural way of overcoming the fear.

I know frightening sleep paralysis was what led me to lucid dreaming in the first place. I also know that it is always a crazy experience. Even if it was totally unrelated to lucid dreaming, it is still an altered state of consciousness that many people would be curious about and, therefore seek to experience.

If your starting point is that you're suffering from sleep paralysis it's great that you can turn it to your advantage by initiating lucid dreams from it, but I don't see why anyone would actively seek it.

On another, unrelated point,
I think this is a little misleading, and want to clarify. When you WILD, you can actually hold onto your consciousness through the initial phases of sleep. 15 minutes, in your explanation. When you do this, you can experience the entrance into REM sleep, and REM atonia. Therefore, sleep paralysis in WILD is an experience of REM atonia. You are forgetting the very definition of WILD, that you remain conscious through the process.

I'm not forgetting it. If you have progressed into an REM dream (and REM atonia) you will be long past any HH. By contrast most WILD guides will tell you that these two phenomena occur at the same time or very close in time. Also, when you have entered an REM dream you will (as in any dream) feel and control your dream body instead of your real body, so you won't actually feel paralyzed. If you had known exactly when you entered and exited REM, you could have inferred that you would have to be paralyzed, but you don't even know when you're in REM. Ergo, there is not normally any experience of paralyzation.

Originally Posted by Robot_Butler

Thor, do you really not understand the OP's question? Or are you purposefully just trying to be difficult?

Thanks for the RB.

Originally Posted by Robot_Butler

When learning something, especially something specific like WILD, it helps to have a model you can relate to. Signposts, expectations, and a general idea of what to expect can help. It is a model and an aid. Its purpose is to help people learn to have the experience for themselves.

This is after all one of the primary purposes of this site.

Originally Posted by Robot_Butler

I think this thread would have been a whole lot more helpful it everyone posted their sleep paralysis experiences, instead of you making a big stink about the difference between sleep paralysis and REM atonia.

I think you are focusing too much on semantics, and not enough on experience.

Quite. It was pretty much agreed that we're refering to the stages leading up to Paralysis. Yet Thors continued banging on that drum.
Constructive comments would be welcomed.

so, back on track:

The physical feelings which may occur, on the run up to Sleep Paralysis (for those who choose to experience them) might be summed up as follows:-

Stage 1) getting numb. That pins and needles feeling of a local anesthetic.

Stage 2) which is the tingling wave that tends rise from head to toe.

(note I may be mixing 1 and 2 up. Could be 2 brings about 1)

Stage 3) shake the bed vibrations and noises as you enter SP.


Has anyone else experienced a similar chain of events.

Originally Posted by Thor

I'm not forgetting it. If you have progressed into an REM dream (and REM atonia) you will be long past any HH. By contrast most WILD guides will tell you that these two phenomena occur at the same time or very close in time. Also, when you have entered an REM dream you will (as in any dream) feel and control your dream body instead of your real body, so you won't actually feel paralyzed. If you had known exactly when you entered and exited REM, you could have inferred that you would have to be paralyzed, but you don't even know when you're in REM. Ergo, there is not normally any experience of paralyzation.

That's not necessarily true. It is the way things normally work, but not when WILDing. When people WILD, they actively hold onto their awareness of their body through to REM sleep. Sensations from your body and environment can carry through to dreams, even without WILD. Many people even witness their own eyes bugging out from REM.

I believe this is an important distinction between the WILD experiences where you experience sleep paralysis, and the times you just get dumped into a lucid dream. In the traditional "WILD ride," you maintain consciousness (including body awareness) through to REM sleep. This often requires willfully holding attention on your body.

It is also possible to slip into hypnagogia and possibly some light dreams before REM, losing awareness of your body entirely. People who do this often use a visualization of a separate body, environment, or point of awareness. Both ways work.

Originally Posted by Tweek

Most everything in this thread goes against BillyBobs tech to WILD. You guys are over analyzing it waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much.

Really? This is a direct quote from BillyBob's WILD guide:

"For starters, you absolutely should NOT be waiting for HI or any other thing that people say they see, I myself rarely feel SP or see HI, I don't "see" anything because I'm so focused on my breathing."

Originally Posted by Robot_Butler

That's not necessarily true. It is the way things normally work, but not when WILDing. When people WILD, they actively hold onto their awareness of their body through to REM sleep. Sensations from your body and environment can carry through to dreams, even without WILD. Many people even witness their own eyes bugging out from REM.

For starters, how do you know that you have entered REM sleep?

I believe this is an important distinction between the WILD experiences where you experience sleep paralysis, and the times you just get dumped into a lucid dream. In the traditional "WILD ride," you maintain consciousness (including body awareness) through to REM sleep. This often requires willfully holding attention on your body.

Where can I find a guide to this "traditional WILD ride"? All the WILD guides I've read, including LaBerge's, say that you will enter the dream immediately after experiencing hypnagogic hallucinations (if any) and then falling asleep consciously. In other words, the lucid dream starts as soon as you fall asleep, and REM sleep is still far away.

Originally Posted by Thor

Where can I find a guide to this "traditional WILD ride"? All the WILD guides I've read, including LaBerge's, say that you will enter the dream immediately after experiencing hypnagogic hallucinations (if any) and then falling asleep consciously. In other words, the lucid dream starts as soon as you fall asleep, and REM sleep is still far away.

What are you talking about? All LD's happen in REM sleep. This is from wikipedia. The quote is from LaBerge:

Originally Posted by wikipedia

The wake-initiated lucid dream "occurs when the sleeper enters REM sleep with unbroken self-awareness directly from the waking state".[28]

Dreams rarely occur in Non-REM sleep, and if they do they are not vivid and they are not typically remembered.

Like RobotButler said, some people can even feel thier eyes moving when they are in REM sleep. I've experienced this once upon entering REM sleep via WILD, and once upon waking from REM sleep during a DILD.

Originally Posted by John11

What are you talking about? All LD's happen in REM sleep.

No, this is incorrect. You are quoting LaBerge to support your point, but the notion that lucid dreams occur only in REM sleep is actually contradicted by LaBerge's own research:

Stephen LaBerge, Ph.D. Lucid Dreaming: Psychophysiological Studies of Consciousness during REM Sleep. In Bootzen, R. R., Kihlstrom, J.F. & Schacter, D.L., (Eds.) Sleep and Cognition. Washington, D.C.: American Psychological Association, 1990 (pp. 109-126).

In particular:

After being instructed in the method of lucid dream induction (MILD) described by LaBerge (1980b) the subjects were recorded from 2 to 20 nights each. In the course of the 34 nights of the study, 35 lucid dreams were reported subsequent to spontaneous awakening from various stages of sleep as follows: REM sleep 32 times, NREM Stage-1, twice, and during the transition from NREM Stage-2 to REM, once.

So lucid dreams in sleep stage 1 have definitely been verified.

Dreams rarely occur in Non-REM sleep, and if they do they are not vivid and they are not typically remembered.

This is an old myth, and the literature is replete with evidence to the contrary. Dreams in sleep stage 2 in particular are often indistinguishable from REM dreams. For example, would you like to take a guess at which sleep stage the following dream occurred in:

I was with my mother in a public library. I wanted her to steal something for me. I've got to try and remember what it was, because it was something extraordinary, something like a buffalo head that was in this museum. I had told my mother previously that I wanted this head and she said, all right, you know, we'll see what we can do about it. And she met me in the library, part of which was a museum. And I remember telling my mother to please lower her voice and she insisted on talking even more loudly. And I said, if you don't, of course, you'll never be able to take the buffalo head. Everyone will turn around and look at you. Well, when we got to the place where the buffalo head was, it was surrounded by other strange things. There was a little sort of smock that little boys used to wear at the beginning of the century. And one of the women who worked at the library came up to me and said, dear, I haven't been able to sell this smock. And I remember saying to her, well, why don't you wear it then? For some reason or other I had to leave my mother alone, and she had to continue with the buffalo head project all by herself. Then I left the library and went outside, and there were groups of people just sitting on the grass listening to music.

Correct answer: sleep stage 2.

Like RobotButler said, some people can even feel thier eyes moving when they are in REM sleep. I've experienced this once upon entering REM sleep via WILD, and once upon waking from REM sleep during a DILD.

So you were connected to an EEG machine then? If not, how did you know when you were in REM sleep?

Originally Posted by Thor

So you were connected to an EEG machine then?

That would be awesome

Originally Posted by Thor

If not, how did you know when you were in REM sleep?

Okay, you're probably right. I haven't done very much reading on the subject yet. So, if LDs can occur in NREM sleep then I guess you wouldn't know you were in REM sleep then unless you felt symptoms of REM sleep like rapid eye movement or REM atonia.

Originally Posted by John11

That would be awesome



Okay, you're probably right. I haven't done very much reading on the subject yet. So, if LDs can occur in NREM sleep then I guess you wouldn't know you were in REM sleep then unless you felt symptoms of REM sleep like rapid eye movement or REM atonia.

And even then, remember, you may just be feeling that because you expect to, and it's a dream sensation that you induce hahaha

Originally Posted by Shift

And even then, remember, you may just be feeling that because you expect to, and it's a dream sensation that you induce hahaha

Yeah. I've thought of that too. I'm pretty sure though that I have a strong sense of my actual body when I'm sleeping. Of course I can't be positive, but it sure seems that way.

Originally Posted by Tweek

Most everything in this thread goes against BillyBobs tech to WILD. You guys are over analyzing it waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much.

Sorry for replying to your post twice, but the more I read of BillyBob the more I see him supporting my point:

When learning to WILD, the majority of people learn about these crAzY things like "Hypnogogic Imagery, Sleep Paralysis, Auditory Hallucinations, etc." and are then told that these things "lead up to" dreams.
What happens when they lay down to WILD? They subconsciously tell themselves "watch out for hypnogogia/paralysis/voices as these things mean you are closer to lucidity!" This is the exact equivalent of what the prehistoric human thought. This is the exact thing the system watches for to keep you from falling into your dreams!

This is precisely what I've been saying: If you keep focusing on SP, HH, and all that crap, you may actually sabotage your chances to WILD.

Originally Posted by Thor

This is precisely what I've been saying: If you keep focusing on SP, HH, and all that crap, you may actually sabotage your chances to WILD.

Ooooooh, that's what you're saying. Well why didn't you say so?!? All those fancy explanations from research documents didn't do it for me. Now I know what you're talking about. (Partly because I've read Bob's WILD guide where you got that quote.)

Originally Posted by Snowy Egypt

Ooooooh, that's what you're saying. Well why didn't you say so?!?

Can you read at all? These are things I said much earlier in this thread:

See, that's the core of the problem. Because of those misleading WILD guides you now believe that you have to "manage SP" in order to WILD. You don't. I and many others have WILDed without experiencing any kind of sleep paralysis.

Sure, but what if you give "these states" so much focus that you lose sight of the real goal, which was to WILD? I have personally WILDed with no HH at all, and I've read other people's accounts of the same here on Dream Views. If what you're expecting doesn't happen, don't you think that could be a discouragement to you? Personally I would recommend that people try to WILD with an open mind and not expect anything in particular except that they will eventually enter a dream.

See Shift, where this SP(P) focus is leading? To nowhere! Here moonshine was expecting a nice sequence of big signposts leading him into the dream, and now you have to inform him that there may not be any at all. What's he gonna do now?

Originally Posted by moonshine

so, back on track:

The physical feelings which may occur, on the run up to Sleep Paralysis (for those who choose to experience them) might be summed up as follows:-

Stage 1) getting numb. That pins and needles feeling of a local anesthetic.

Stage 2) which is the tingling wave that tends rise from head to toe.

(note I may be mixing 1 and 2 up. Could be 2 brings about 1)

Stage 3) shake the bed vibrations and noises as you enter SP.


Has anyone else experienced a similar chain of events.

sigh.

Bump.

Originally Posted by Thor

Can you read at all? These are things I said much earlier in this thread:

See, that's the core of the problem. Because of those misleading WILD guides you now believe that you have to "manage SP" in order to WILD. You don't. I and many others have WILDed without experiencing any kind of sleep paralysis.

Sure, but what if you give "these states" so much focus that you lose sight of the real goal, which was to WILD? I have personally WILDed with no HH at all, and I've read other people's accounts of the same here on Dream Views. If what you're expecting doesn't happen, don't you think that could be a discouragement to you? Personally I would recommend that people try to WILD with an open mind and not expect anything in particular except that they will eventually enter a dream.

See Shift, where this SP(P) focus is leading? To nowhere! Here moonshine was expecting a nice sequence of big signposts leading him into the dream, and now you have to inform him that there may not be any at all. What's he gonna do now?

To be quite honest, I skimmed. Too many walls of texts staring me in the face at 12:44 AM? Yeah, the laziness kicked in.

But enough about me and my "lack of reading skills". I think moonshine wants his stuff replied to.

Sorry Moonshine. Everyone interested in discussing what SP is or isn't, I made a new thread: http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...ad.php?t=67732 Go wild with it.

Sorry to nitpick, Shift, but the title's knida misleading. (To me anyways) We all need SP, otherwise we would act out our dreams. I think it would sound better if that last part went something like"...and why it is or isn't needed for WILD/LDs/whatever you want to put here."

>_< I hate nitpicking...but that just stood out to me.

Originally Posted by Snowy Egypt

Sorry to nitpick, Shift, but the title's knida misleading. (To me anyways) We all need SP, otherwise we would act out our dreams. I think it would sound better if that last part went something like"...and why it is or isn't needed for WILD/LDs/whatever you want to put here."

>_< I hate nitpicking...but that just stood out to me.

Well that's the whole point of this discussion, that people aren't even necessarily talking about REM atonia. Anyway I changed it slightly, further discussion there so we don't prevent moonshine from getting any feedback related to the stages of Sleep Paralysis. Sorry again, Moonshine

Something interesting happened last night.
I guess I'd come out of a dream, and was lost in some disjointed strange rambling thoughts. Suddenly I felt the "vibrations", and then I woke up.

So my question is this. Is it possible to experience the same feelings on the threshold coming out of SP as we do going in. Cos last nights shenanigans would suggest this is the case.