Thread: What Sleep Paralysis Is, and Why You Don't 'Need' It to WILD

Originally Posted by O'nus

Try to re-state your original arguments in a more declarative style to help reconcile.

Alrighty then.

1) In Thors opinion the Term "Sleep Paralysis" can only be used with reference to the sleeping disorder. The majority of posters of DV understand the common meaning of "Sleep Paralysis", whether its a Colloquial term or not. Even if thor is technically correct (and the jury is still out on that) the term Sleep Paralysis (as used by laberge) will remain in common use amongst the lucid dreaming community

2) Thor states the Sleep paralysis is actually REM Atonia and can only take place in REM sleep. For this reason he has concluded that, outside of "Sleep Paralysis Disorder" there is no evidence that you can induce Sleep paralysis to WILD. His salient point seems to be that as you can only experience REM Atonia in REM sleep then you can't be experiencing REM atonia as you initiate a WILD.

This has been disputed and reference has been made to the significant records of anecdotal experience amongst the Lucid dreaming community. More on this later.

3) Further discussion has revealed that REM like dreams do indeed occur during a nominal period of NREM sleep (something which Thor actually initially pointed out). However, the majority of NREM dreams are more akin to thought dreams.

Now it makes sense that Sleep Paralysis isn't required during NREM as you're not inhabiting 3D virtual dream worlds and so will not run around the bedroom as you act out your dreams. But what of those REM like dreams.

Well the paper that I linked concludes that REM atonia actually occours outside of REM sleep (making the term Muscle Atonia more accurate). In point of fact it ramps up before REM sleep, and drops down after REM sleep. It makes logical sense that the REM like NREM dreams occour when Muscle Atonia is ramping up and down - therefore preventing you acting out the REM like dreams.

The paper concludes that

These findings indicate that a REM sleep episode is not sharply delimited but that it has antecedents during NREM sleep and that it vanishes gradually in the succeeding NREM sleep episode.

I would suggest that this makes sense to WILDers. WILD attempts are clearly not simple on/off physical/mental functions. A transition period is clearly observed.

In view of the U-shaped distribution of MAN (Muscle Atonia in NREM) episodes it is unlikely that they are analogous events.

THOR Insists the REM Atonia can ONLY occur in REM sleep - hence the name. Anything outwith REM atonia is dismissed by THOR as low muscle tone. But this seems to be a simple semantic stubborness.

In view of the U-shaped distribution of MAN (Muscle Atonia in NREM) episodes it is unlikely that they are analogous events.

The paper concludes that the U shaped curve clearly indicates that the ramping up and down of Muscle Atonia at either side of the REM period (Where REM atonia occours) is unlikely to be co-incidental. If we accept that REM Atonia (muscle atonia in REM) and MAN (Muscle Atonia in NREM) are similar physiological functions, the observations and theory holds together quite logically.

Originally Posted by moonshine

Alrighty then.

1) In Thors opinion the Term "Sleep Paralysis" can only be used with reference to the sleeping disorder. The majority of posters of DV understand the common meaning of "Sleep Paralysis", whether its a Colloquial term or not. Even if thor is technically correct (and the jury is still out on that) the term Sleep Paralysis (as used by laberge) will remain in common use amongst the lucid dreaming community

I agree, these are good points that Thor does need to support.

2) Thor states the Sleep paralysis is actually REM Atonia and can only take place in REM sleep. For this reason he has concluded that, outside of "Sleep Paralysis Disorder" there is no evidence that you can induce Sleep paralysis to WILD. His salient point seems to be that as you can only experience REM Atonia in REM sleep then you can't be experiencing REM atonia as you initiate a WILD.

This has been disputed and reference has been made to the significant records of anecdotal experience amongst the Lucid dreaming community. More on this later.

What were the references aside from DV itself...? Hopefully more than just book naming.

3) Further discussion has revealed that REM like dreams do indeed occur during a nominal period of NREM sleep (something which Thor actually initially pointed out). However, the majority of NREM dreams are more akin to thought dreams.

Right, I think this is agreed upon with everyone, no..?

THOR Insists the REM Atonia can ONLY occur in REM sleep - hence the name. Anything outwith REM atonia is dismissed by THOR as low muscle tone. But this seems to be a simple semantic stubborness.

Asserting that REM Atonia can only occur in REM sleep is interesting and I'd like to see more evidence. I am sure that there are rare cases that can quell this assertion, but I cannot source any at the moment.

Good points Moonshine, I look forward to Thor's response.

~

Just so that, if EWOLD is discussed, everyone knows what it says in EWOLD:

While all this activity is happening in your brain, your body remains almost completely still (except for small twitches), because it is temporarily paralyzed during REM sleep to prevent you from acting out your dreams. The “sleep paralysis” of REM sleep doesn’t always turn off immediately upon awakening; this is why you may have experienced waking up and not being able to move for a minute. Sleep paralysis can seem a terrifying experience, but actually it is quite harmless, and indeed, can even be useful for inducing lucid dreams (see Chapter 4). (EWOLD, p.~23)

Sometimes the REM systems don’t turn on or off at the same time. For example, you may awaken partially from REM sleep, before the paralysis system turns off, so that your body is still paralyzed even though you are otherwise awake. Sleep paralysis, as this condition is called, can occur while people are falling asleep (rarely) or waking up (more frequently). If you don’t know what’s happening, your first experience with sleep paralysis can terrifying. People typically struggle in a fruitless effort re or to fully wake up. In fact, such emotional panic reactions are completely counterproductive; they are likely to stimulate the limbic (emotional) areas of the brain and cause the REM state to persist. The fact is, sleep paralysis is harmless. Sometimes when it happens to you, you feel as if you are suffocating or in the presence of a nameless evil. But this is just the way your half-dreaming brain interprets these abnormal conditions: something terrible must be happening! The medieval stories of incubus attacks (malevolent spirits believed to descend upon and have sex with sleeping women) probably derived from fantastically over-interpreted experiences of sleep paralysis. The next time you experience sleep paralysis, simply remember to relax. Tell yourself that you are in the same state now as you are several hours every night during REM sleep. It will do you no harm and will pass in a few minutes. Sleep paralysis is not only nothing to be frightened of, it can be something to be sought after and cultivated. Whenever you experience sleep paralysis you are on the threshold REM sleep. You have, as it were, one foot in the dream state and one in the waking state. Just step over and you’re in the world of lucid dreams. In the following exercises we sent several techniques for taking that step. (EWOLD, p. ~79)

To me it seems like the biggest problem is websites like DV having inaccurate tutorials and videos online teaching WILD/AP that inaccurately use the term, than EWOLD itself. Just think, if he had said 'paralysis' instead of 'sleep paralysis', or used REM atonia accurately... Quite honestly I don't think the average person pays that much attention to the slight details in EWOLD like this, and so if the rest of us just use the terms intelligently and accurately we can shift the use of terminology to be accurate.

*bows out*

PS I really wish that there was a study on definitively, whether people can learn to get themselves into SP and assuming yes (since I assume yes) what the learning curve is like on average, if you're predisposed to it, if you can get it easier if you suffer it, if it's really better to lay on your back, blah blah blah, and to be really monitoring the muscles and not just relying on self reports of mere hypnagogic hallucinations rather than true paralysis. And then we could work on why it is that SP eclipses HIT and VILD.

Originally Posted by Shift

Just so that, if EWOLD is discussed, everyone knows what it says in EWOLD:

To me it seems like the biggest problem is websites like DV having inaccurate tutorials and videos online teaching WILD/AP that inaccurately use the term, than EWOLD itself. Just think, if he had said 'paralysis' instead of 'sleep paralysis', or used REM atonia accurately... Quite honestly I don't think the average person pays that much attention to the slight details in EWOLD like this, and so if the rest of us just use the terms intelligently and accurately we can shift the use of terminology to be accurate.

*bows out*

PS I really wish that there was a study on definitively, whether people can learn to get themselves into SP and assuming yes (since I assume yes) what the learning curve is like on average, if you're predisposed to it, if you can get it easier if you suffer it, if it's really better to lay on your back, blah blah blah, and to be really monitoring the muscles and not just relying on self reports of mere hypnagogic hallucinations rather than true paralysis. And then we could work on why it is that SP eclipses HIT and VILD.

Hiya shift. The section you quoted (which is on page 108 in my edition of EWOLD) refers to Attention on Body or Self during wild.

The opening paragraph - If you focus on your body while falling asleep, you will sometimes notice a condition in which it seems to undergo extreme distortions, or begins to shake with mysterious vibrations, or becomes completely paralyzed. All of these unusual bodily states are related to the process of sleep onset and particularly REM sleep paralysis.

In the tutorials thereafter Laberge states:

Watch for signs of strange sensations, vibrations, and distortions of your body image. These are the harbringers of REM sleep paralysis.

There seems to be little doubt.
The vibrations etc which many lucid dreamers have experienced is the onset of "sleep paralysis".

We also understand the reasons for these strange feelings. This is the transition zone from external physical input to internal dream input.

So clearly, as far as EWOLD is concerned, when wilding we can physically experience the transition to REM sleep and sleep paralysis.
(or indeed REM like dreams during NREM sleep and sleep paralysis).

On this basis, I would argue the the common use of the term "Sleep Paralysis" to describe REM Muscle Atonia or Muscle Atonia in NREM is fairly understandable.

Originally Posted by O'nus

What were the references aside from DV itself...? Hopefully more than just book naming.
~

Sorry, I got distracted responding to your other post.

Thor asserts that, as we cannot wire our brains and bodies up to laboratory equipment, that the significant amount of anecdotal evidence (i.e. the descriptions of DV Lucid Dreamer WILD attempts) is worthless.

This is clearly not the case. It is no co-incidence that so many of us have experienced the WILD transition into a dream exactly as described by laberge.

I my self have felt the "SP wave" on a number of occasions.

Crucially, I have experienced it on occasions when I have not been trying to wild. Once was falling asleep. I suddenly woke up having felt as if I had been pulled from the bed by my feet. Gave me a fright!

I have also experienced it once when slowly waking up. In what I can only assume was SP "switching off" I felt the wave just before I became fully conscious and awake.

On another occasion when WILDing I very much experienced some of the symptoms of Sleep Paralysis Disorder. I felt the vibrations and the SP wave. I also felt like I was being roughly touched by some malevolent entity. Creepy. After which I dropped into a dream.
I personally didn't choose to open my eyes or test the paralysis, but there are posters who have indeed done the same.

Simply rejecting these and other testimonies based on nothing but personal opinion is neither credible or logical.

Originally Posted by O'nus

Right, I think this is agreed upon with everyone, no..?
~

To varying degrees I think. Until recently I understood that we did dream thought like dreams during on NREM, but I only recently became aware of the REM like NREM dreams, which, on review of the evidence, I now fully accept.

Originally Posted by O'nus

Asserting that REM Atonia can only occur in REM sleep is interesting and I'd like to see more evidence. I am sure that there are rare cases that can quell this assertion, but I cannot source any at the moment.
~

I would suggest that the "REM" in "REM Ationa" is no longer sufficent evidence.

As far as quelling the assertion, the paper I have linked to previously, IMO, does just that. Science appears to have moved on, and the case is now being made for a transition zone between NREM and REM sleep where both
REM Like Dreams and "REM-Atonia" like "Muscle Atonia in NREM" occours.