Thread: What Every Lucid Dreamer Should Know About Sleep Paralysis

Excellent post, Thor. I learned quite a bit.

Well organized, easily readable, and very informative. Nicely done.

I just have one question that's been bothering me. If we can dream and LD in stages 1 and 2, wouldn't we act out our movements in real life during those stages since we aren't in REM atonia at the time? Or am I missing something?

An very interesting and informative read. Thanks for taking the time.

Some people would label this discussion as just semantics

You got me pegged!

Yet I still don't see the issue with laymen calling Rem Atonia Sleep Paralysis. I also suspect that its not something which is going to change. As you noted yourself, some people distinguish between SP and "the hag" condition by using the phrase "isolated sleep paralysis" for the scary kind. So its not just the dream views community.

Sense 1: Why Would LDers Want Sleep Paralysis as in REM Atonia?

Because its seen as a route to Lucid Dreaming?

The prevalent hypothesis is that sleep paralysis is REM atonia that has somehow been activated outside of REM sleep

Having your body fall asleep whilst your mind is awake?
Isn't that laberges exact definition of Sleep Paralysis?
Isn't that what causes the Condition "Isolated Sleep Paralysis."
Does this not suggest that it is indeed quite possible to be in SP and
be awake?

I think distinction between HH and SP is a good one though.

Originally Posted by moonshine

You got me pegged!

Hehe. Well, that remark wasn't directed only at you.

Because its seen as a route to Lucid Dreaming?

Yes, by many people, apparently. But I think people are making too much of it. BillyBob is obviously a very experienced lucid dreamer, and his advice is to forget about it.

Having your body fall asleep whilst your mind is awake?
Isn't that laberges exact definition of Sleep Paralysis?

I think that should be construed mostly as a metaphor. This is mostly about the brain and not the body. When you fall asleep, certain parts of the brain are deactivated. It may be the case that lucid dreaming occurs when a particular part of the brain (in the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex) is somehow activated when the rest of the brain is in its usual sleeping state.

I could try to write more about this, but I would need to look more closely into it.

Isn't that what causes the Condition "Isolated Sleep Paralysis."
Does this not suggest that it is indeed quite possible to be in SP and
be awake?

Indeed it is. However this condition is rather unusual, and I haven't seen anything evidence to suggest that you could get it only by wishing for it or concentrating hard.

Originally Posted by Shift

I can add that I have read that sleepwalking/talking typically occurs during those stages. So we DO sometimes act them out But yes, why it's not more common? Or why some people sleepwalk more than others? I have not read enough on it

Good point. Sleepwalking occurs in deep sleep, which is associated with the least vivid dreams, so this is a little strange.

Thor, I have been trying to find something that I can't, and I don't want to make a broad incorrect statement. Every source seems to agree that sleep paralysis (in its true definition) most commonly occurs upon waking from sleep (except for CSP, which occurs at Stage 1). Do you know if it only happens at the end of REM, or if it can happen at any point of waking up? I'm pretty sure, but I don't want to say anything unless I can find a legit source. Do you remember reading anything about it?

I can't say I remember, but it sounds reasonable that it would only occur when waking up from REM sleep and atona failed to be deactivated. It also seems logical to me that it would happen most often when waking up, because when you're falling asleep it takes 90 minutes before you reach REM sleep, unless you have narcolepsy or something.

Strange that you would claim I said you "need" SP to have an OBE/Lucid Dream.
Given that I didn't.

As to the lead blankey feeling, the saltcube video describes this as "partial sleep paralysis". Given that this is a common experience, this no doubt explaining why its commonly reported on Dreamviews. Maybe those reporting the same should be given encouragement instead of being dismissed with an "LOL thats no SP. You will know when its SP".

For the record, I've experienced the wave myself, and the lead blanket.

erm, guys........I think you've got the wrong end of the stick.

Every definition I've read for REM Atonia states that it commonly takes place during Rem sleep to stop you moving whilst dreaming (As you might expect).

Sleep paralysis is therefore Rem Atonia, except the person is awake whilst the body is asleep. This can be frightening, especially if unexpected. But not neccesarily so to experienced lucid dreamers.

Heres what the dictionary of Psychology says about it.

sleep paralysis

A Dictionary of Psychology
sleep paralysis n. A condition in which REM atonia is experienced in the waking state. Such episodes typically occur immediately after waking or shortly before falling asleep. They are often frightening and may be accompanied by out-of-body experiences. See also narcolepsy. Compare REM behaviour disorder.

Thats pretty clear. SP=Where REM Atonia takes place in the waking state.
Where this is associated with the sleep dissorder, this is generally further categorised as "isolated sleep paralysis".

On that basis, it seems conclusive that Sleep Paralysis is exactly the right term to use to describe the stage which can be reached during a WILD. Which is good, as this tallys up with both laberges terminology, and the terminology in common use in this forum.

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O87-REMatonia.html
http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O87...paralysis.html

Originally Posted by Thor

I never said you claimed that, but the video you referred to pretty much implied it.

Err, yeah you did....

Originally Posted by Thor

Strange that they would claim that you need SP to have an OBE

See.

Originally Posted by Thor

There ain't no such thing as "partial sleep paralysis", neither in the sense of the disorder or REM atonia, because that would be self-contradictory; if you can move you are in no way paralyzed. As I wrote in my article this is simply reduced muscle tone, and it happens naturally when you fall asleep.

Err...partially paralysed? See? Meaning difficult to move, not impossible.
This is a very common phenomenon (even experienced by yourself also it seems). Certainly seems to be a common interim stage on the way to full Sleep Paralysis.

Semantic squabbling can't change that.

Originally Posted by Thor

So far so good.

So you now agree that Sleep Paralysis can legitimately be used to describe Rem Atonia whilst the mind is awake.
Phew!

Originally Posted by Thor

So far so good.
No, that does not make much sense, because then you would have to be saying that WILDs are taking place in the awake state.

LOL. No. Read my statement.

to describe the stage which can be reached during a WILD.

A stage. The sleep paralysis stage. When you both paralysed and awake. Not the final stage, when your both dreaming and paralysed, which I guess you really can call REM Atonia.

C'mon Thor. You know I'm right.

Originally Posted by John11

Well organized, easily readable, and very informative. Nicely done.

I just have one question that's been bothering me. If we can dream and LD in stages 1 and 2, wouldn't we act out our movements in real life during those stages since we aren't in REM atonia at the time? Or am I missing something?

I can see why people would believe that. If atonia is needed to keep ourselves from acting out our dreams in REM sleep, then why wouldn't it be needed in non-REM sleep? The answer is that's just the way it is. But keep in mind that the brain in REM sleep is very different from in non-REM sleep (cf. note 8). Anyway it's a legitimate question, so I'll try to answer it in the next version.

Originally Posted by Thor

I can see why people would believe that. If atonia is needed to keep ourselves from acting out our dreams in REM sleep, then why wouldn't it be needed in non-REM sleep? The answer is that's just the way it is. But keep in mind that the brain in REM sleep is very different from in non-REM sleep (cf. note 8). Anyway it's a legitimate question, so I'll try to answer it in the next version.

I can add that I have read that sleepwalking/talking typically occurs during those stages. So we DO sometimes act them out But yes, why it's not more common? Or why some people sleepwalk more than others? I have not read enough on it

Thor, I have been trying to find something that I can't, and I don't want to make a broad incorrect statement. Every source seems to agree that sleep paralysis (in its true definition) most commonly occurs upon waking from sleep (except for CSP, which occurs at Stage 1). Do you know if it only happens at the end of REM, or if it can happen at any point of waking up? I'm pretty sure, but I don't want to say anything unless I can find a legit source. Do you remember reading anything about it?

And if CSP only occurs during Stage 1... is it feasible to try to attain true sleep paralysis after a brief awakening or WBTB? At which point do the cycles reset? I think I may be confusing myself, but ahhhhh why don't any sources agree on what/when sleep paralysis is? Just something I think we ought to look into!

Originally Posted by Thor

I can't say I remember, but it sounds reasonable that it would only occur when waking up from REM sleep and atona failed to be deactivated. It also seems logical to me that it would happen most often when waking up, because when you're falling asleep it takes 90 minutes before you reach REM sleep, unless you have narcolepsy or something.

Yea, but if CSP is most common at stage 1, WAY before REM, and it's a physiological problem, it seems like it wouldn't be limited to setting in early while you're awake... it could also set in while you are asleep in other stages and be experienced upon waking from NREM stages too? In addition to persisting past REM stage sleep. I'm guessing that's most common, because it most commonly occurs upon waking from dreams, and the most dreams occur during REM, but I can't find anything that involved people hooked up to EEGs and if they experienced SP and when. DV needs to invest in some equipment

That was really informative, and it was interesting and easy to read once I got into it.

I'd also like to second the notion that there be some color added, or something put in there to spice it up a bit. I originally read the first paragraph, scrolled down, saw the rest of the post, and was immediately discouraged. I did end up reading it, though, and it was great, it seemed really well thought out, and you put it into words in a way that I could understand.

But, yeah, you should really consider spicing it up a little, because if I hadn't read how much everyone else liked it, I probably wouldn't have gone back and read it at all.

In media, "attention regrabbing" is important. You have to be able to hold people's attention to the end. Like in the lucidipedia videos, it is just one long lecture. I usually space out when watching it. Maybe some loud noises or a little bit more action. The only time he brought me out of my boredom trance is when the little pink tip box comes out. Every thing he says, no matter how hard I try, just passes right through me. I have to play it again about 5 times to catch what he says.

As for the article, as my last post said, I couldn't add or remove anything except for attention regrabbers.