Stop Drop and Roll. Why Lucidology and Nicholas Newport are creating misinformation.

Dammit Mcwillis. The thread was dying. Leave it be lol.

:panic: LET IT DIE A NATURAL DEATH MCWILLIS!!! :panic:

;)

I thought that post about LaBerge would be the final nail in the coffin to shut people up actually.

I was joking ;) The thread was helpful :D

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Originally Posted by Jeff777

I guess noone uses whois anymore. :/ At any rate, since this thread has been causing somewhat of a stir, I decided to do some digging myself. But here's a bit of back info first. Back in 2007 I discovered the saltcube website and decided to buy the dvd. Matt Jones is the owner of the saltcube website and the narrator in the dvd. I became curious and wanted more info on this "putting your body to sleep" method so I googled that exact term. A website came up called smoke and mirrors (created as a sub-directory under the infernowolf site). The smoke and mirrors page has been removed for some time but the URL in which I copied the site from was put (and has always remained) at the bottom of the Mind Awake, Body Asleep (formerly How to trick your body into falling asleep while keeping your mind awake) post. I put it there when I created the thread so that people would know I wasn't passing this method and the article off as original creations by me. Granted I've found much success with the method, I'm very quick to tell people that it's not my method.

I appreciate the support but I definitely have to agree with a lot of points spaceexplorer and others have made in this thread. If I had the opportunity to go back and offer my own explanation of the method, I probably would.. because if you are coming from a scientific perspective, it can be misleading. On the flip side though, it's very easy for a LD'ing newbie to understand and "get." Which is why so many have found success by using it. Their success, I believe, did not stem from them tricking their bodies into falling asleep. Their success comes from their belief in that method which creates a discipline in themselves when attempting. That in turn yields them the success they attribute BACK to the article. Does the end justify the means? I guess to answer that you should examine the reasons why you came here in the first place. To be right. Or to lucid dream.

As one progresses in their journey, then they can get into the scientifics involved if they want.. but tbh, noone really cares. They just "want it to work." Disagree with me? What's more important.. that your bedside lamp works, or you first understand all the specifics involved that make it work? If you're me, you just want to turn the damn thing on when you need to without needing prequel instructions prior to getting it to work.

The method does not "trick" anything. It merely cultivates discipline in the person..and discipline is the foundation to deliberate lucid dreaming.

Now, to help the article/method save face a bit, the only problem I see is the word "tricking." Everything else is fine. That's the only part of the article I would go back and revise if I could. But that runaway train took off in 2007.. and google took notice. Therefore editing it now would be detrimental. The mind and body are one.

Below are some whois results I pulled up, which kind of surprised me. First is a summary timeline of what happened. I'm sure Matt Jones/Nicholas Newport is pissed that the same material he's selling on his site for tens of dollars is freely being given here. And that it's helped thousands.

Saltcube was created by Matt Jones 2004 ->

Jeff sees saltcube site and searches for more info online and finds smoke and mirrors site and re-posts the article on DV in late 2007 ->

Matt Jones, becoming aware that his sites keywords are being weighted for another site decides to reinvent himself and his product under a new guise and with more complex jargon to convince others that the more complex it is, the better it must be, therefore he creates lucidology.com in 2008 ->

I'm often asked by LD'ers who do I think of Nicholas Newport (remember, Matt Jones of saltcube is the same guy). My usual response is similar to what most of the responses in here are like. I think he's not a bad chap. Just trying to make some money online. But he's over-complicating a subject that does not require graphs or unintelligible technical jargon. That's his gotcha selling point. If you believe you need it, buy it. download it. The purpose as to why you're here or on his site is to LD. I don't care if you have to fap 30 times before breakfast and drink toilet water at night as an LD'ing routine you swear by.

Whatever. Works. For. You. (Just don't tell the paramedics Jeff told you to do that)


- Jeff

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Originally Posted by mcwillis

Well if you think Nick Newport is a slimey salesman just in it for the money then you really should take a look at this concerning Stephen LaBerge.

$522? LaBerge you filthy capitalist!

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Between those 2 quotes, Your right, this thread is probably dead. Now dont post Shhhhh

Also, there is another (fair) discussion about this stuff here.. if you feel you would like to join :) Below :)

http://www.dreamviews.com/f45/lucido...e-here-109585/

http://www.dreamviews.com/attachment...2&d=1296614661

Bumping with "science"
:facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm:
What is this I don't even

The biggest difference between Dr. LaBerge and Mr. Newport remains, quite frankly, one is certified as an expert on the subject, while the academic credentials of the other are non-existent.

It's like comparing a pharmacist to a drug dealer.

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Originally Posted by LostOnTrains

http://www.dreamviews.com/attachment...2&d=1296614661

Bumping with "science"
:facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm:
What is this I don't even

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Seriously? This is what frustrates me, Are you really telling me that makes no sense to you? Are you really telling me this is so far above your head that you cannot understand it? Every one of the graphs make sense for anyone of average intelligence.. This is what frustrates me. If you really cant get this, then the problem is not with the illustrations. Work with me.

Let me explain and try to follow the graph. There is a blue line that symbolizes the difference between being awake and asleep. Above the line means awake while below that line means asleep. This line also represents the time frame in which the actions are happening. So as the graph clearly illustrates, laying still with no movement (it even says no movement really big so you can see), the actions of the body (shown in red) show that the body will move into a sleep state until the beep (explained verbally) brings it back into the awake state each time. Then the body falls back into the sleep state, until the beep, which brings it back to the awake state. Now where it says SP is very likely here, is because when going from awake to asleep rapidly in a short time, the body becomes more and more resistant to waking, yet when you hear the beep the mind still wakes. So what you have at the end is: Body Asleep In SP + Mind Awake and Conscious = Waking Sleep Paralysis. Now, Sleep Paralysis is when the body is asleep, which we normally try to get into through wilding, a long and unyielding process in many cases. What this technique does is put you into SP with very little effort, and it works very very well.


Maybe we should contact Nicholas Newport and see if he can redesign his illustrations for monkeys and those with equal mental capacity. This bs is really frustrating me as you can tell. It sounds like to me it really is about many of your levels of education in the matter of lucid dreaming that is holding you back when you can't understand a simple graph.

Watch the video's again, listen to the explanation at the same time, You may get it.

Anyone with Average Intelligence and non biased opinion interested in discussing lucid dreaming methods known to be successful and discussion in great detail of those methods, whether they work or do not work, Follow the link below. Monkeys, and those of equal intelligence need not bother, infact, pretend the link doesn't exist :)

http://www.dreamviews.com/f45/lucidology-101-nicholas-newport-entire-video-course-here-109585/


Not to mention you are beating a dead horse. As Jeff cleared up earlier, the methods work, regardless of what you think about the creator.

Monkeys are pretty smart, yo.

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Originally Posted by atkins513

Seriously? This is what frustrates me, Are you really telling me that makes no sense to you? Are you really telling me this is so far above your head that you cannot understand it? Every one of the graphs make sense for anyone of average intelligence.. This is what frustrates me. If you really cant get this, then the problem is not with the illustrations. Work with me.

(tl;dr)

Maybe we should contact Nicholas Newport and see if he can redesign his illustrations for monkeys and those with equal mental capacity. This bs is really frustrating me as you can tell. It sounds like to me it really is about many of your levels of education in the matter of lucid dreaming that is holding you back when you can't understand a simple graph.

Watch the video's again, listen to the explanation at the same time, You may get it.

Anyone with Average Intelligence and unbiased opinion interested in discussing lucid dreaming methods known to be successful and discussion in great detail of those methods, whether they work or do not work, Follow the link below. Monkeys, and those of equal intelligence need not bother, infact, pretend the link doesn't exist :)

http://www.dreamviews.com/f12/stop-drop-roll-why-lucidology-nicholas-newport-creating-misinformation-81402/


Not to mention you are beating a dead horse. As Jeff cleared up earlier, the methods work, regardless of what you think about the creator.

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Ah, so you're saying it works like this?
http://www.dreamviews.com/attachment...3&d=1296621344

lol. what he is saying is you wake up inbetween dreams about every hour in the night whether you are concious of it or not. And if you find yourself waking up inbetween dreams don't move at all and you can slip into sleep paralysis easily.

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Originally Posted by saltyseedog

lol. what he is saying is you wake up inbetween dreams about every hour in the night whether you are concious of it or not. And if you find yourself waking up inbetween dreams don't move at all and you can slip into sleep paralysis easily.

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I know, I'm just joking. My point was that this is a very simple idea (look, you just summed it up very easily in 2 short sentences). In fact, you explained it BETTER than the graph.
The time line, how long is that? 1 second? 8 days? Its just 'time'. It means nothing. And the Asleep/awake line. So is the top of the chart being fully awake and the bottom being fully alseep? So the wiggly red line represents the body wavering somewhere midway being awake and asleep? Also there is an arrow pointing to a point at the bottom of the chart saying 'awake' but really this far down the 'sleep' axis, the body should be asleep. So am I now supposed to be asleep and awake at the same time here? Or maybe the 'awake' in this arrow really means 'wake up'. If this is the case, then it confuses things because the asleep/awake axis also has an 'awake'. So I am supposed to attribute a different meaning to the word 'awake' as it is used at different points in the graph?

What I am saying is the graph and the related videos make a simple idea overcomplicated.

If you're paying for lucid dreaming, you're doing it wrong.

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Originally Posted by LostOnTrains

I know, I'm just joking. My point was that this is a very simple idea (look, you just summed it up very easily in 2 short sentences). In fact, you explained it BETTER than the graph.
The time line, how long is that? 1 second? 8 days? Its just 'time'. It means nothing. And the Asleep/awake line. So is the top of the chart being fully awake and the bottom being fully alseep? So the wiggly red line represents the body wavering somewhere midway being awake and asleep? Also there is an arrow pointing to a point at the bottom of the chart saying 'awake' but really this far down the 'sleep' axis, the body should be asleep. So am I now supposed to be asleep and awake at the same time here? Or maybe the 'awake' in this arrow really means 'wake up'. If this is the case, then it confuses things because the asleep/awake axis also has an 'awake'. So I am supposed to attribute a different meaning to the word 'awake' as it is used at different points in the graph?

What I am saying is the graph and the related videos make a simple idea overcomplicated.

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Apparently neither one of you have watched the video, because you are both 100 percent completely ass backwards wrong.
This graph goes along to explain how to use a very specific wilding technique that does not just happen randomly at night, but in fact is planned and
done in the early morning hours as WBTB. The graph goes along to explain very specific instructions for this technique.

Watch the video and you may understand, as far as Lostontrains, you've successfully proven yourself as an idiot.
THE ENTIRE FIRST COURSE IS FREE. LET ME EXPLAIN THIS TO YOU, FREE MEANS IT DOES NOT COST ANYTHING. THE ENTIRE SECOND COURSE CAN EASILY BE FOUND FOR FREE ONLINE AS WELL. ALL GREAT METHODS FOR INDUCING LUCID DREAMS.

Now, JEFF, wrote a tutorial based on the methods, and it showed great great success for many people, proving the methods work.
WHO CARES ABOUT NICHOLAS NEWPORT OR LUCIDOLOGY, JUST USE THE METHODS AND GET LUCID!!!!

YOU GUYS ARE BASHING THESE METHODS and if you successfully convince people not to try them, you personally are responsible for screwing people out of having lucid dreams and are 100 percent at fault if they miss out on LDs that they could have had using these methods.. give it a rest for real.. your just hurting the community.


One last thing.

The methods work, the methods work, the methods work, the methods work
who cares about the author, who cares about the author, who cares about the author
The videos are all free online, both series, the videos are all free online, both series
you are screwing people out of lucid dreaming, you are screwing people out of lucid dreaming,
By continuing bashing working methods because of the author you are screwing people out of ld
By continuing bashing working methods because of the author you are screwing people out of ld

personally I think all the videos make the idea of the WILD a little to complicated. to much to think about when you are attempting WILD.

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Originally Posted by atkins513

Apparently neither one of you have watched the video, because you are both 100 percent completely ass backwards wrong.
This graph goes along to explain how to use a very specific wilding technique that does not just happen randomly at night, but in fact is planned and
done in the early morning hours as WBTB. The graph goes along to explain very specific instructions for this technique.

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Imma sum up how to do WILD with WBTB right here. Now, you have a bunch of options, so pay attention:
Option one: Read Mzzkc's WILD guide, or any of the other great WILD guides.
Option two: Read the site WILD guide
Option three: read below
1. sleep about 6 hours
2. wake up
3. do a WILD. Durr hurr hurr durrrrrrrr. Anyone that requires a video and graphs to explain this is pants-on-head retarded.
Option four: any or all of the above

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THE ENTIRE SECOND COURSE CAN EASILY BE FOUND FOR FREE ONLINE AS WELL.

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Illegally? Cuz you know, a lot of people aren't willing to cross that line.

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Now, JEFF, wrote a tutorial based on the methods, and it showed great great success for many people, proving the methods work.

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I don't think most people are arguing that they don't work...I think they're mostly arguing that this dude is making things way overcomplicated, and expecting compensation for free public knowledge.

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WHO CARES ABOUT NICHOLAS NEWPORT OR LUCIDOLOGY, JUST USE THE METHODS AND GET LUCID!!!!

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I should probably point out that his methods are far from all-encompassing. They leave much to be desired, and while they may work, they may not be the most efficient method.

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YOU GUYS ARE BASHING THESE METHODS and if you successfully convince people not to try them, you personally are responsible for screwing people out of having lucid dreams and are 100 percent at fault if they miss out on LDs that they could have had using these methods.. give it a rest for real.. your just hurting the community.

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We're bashing the author. Or at least I am. This man has no business doing what he is. All he's doing is taking what can already be found for free, rebundling it under the guise of expertise, and charging money for it. Oh yeah, and making it much more complex than it has to be. He is inefficient and, quite frankly, a waste of time. His "science" seldom is, and while the techniques may work in and of themselves, there is nothing special about them, and at the end of the day, he is still spreading misinformation. Why spend two minutes of your life with this joke, when you could spend those two same minutes being far more productive?

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The methods work, the methods work, the methods work, the methods work

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An octagonal wheel works...but it doesn't mean it works well.

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who cares about the author, who cares about the author, who cares about the author

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This is like hiring a serial killer for a teacher, but not caring so long as they do their job and don't accidentally fatally stab any students. :/

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The videos are all free online, both series, the videos are all free online, both series

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Define "free." Are they "free" with the author's consent, or "free" in the same way that Inception can be "free" if you know where to look? :?

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you are screwing people out of lucid dreaming, you are screwing people out of lucid dreaming,

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No, we're trying to promote lucid dreaming...and the well-being of your wallet.

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By continuing bashing working methods because of the author you are screwing people out of ld

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Bashing the author and his teaching techniques, not his core methods. Also, his use of pseudoscience to try and justify his methods, which is the spread of misinformation at its finest.

If you seriously can't be troubled to read a basic tutorial, and honestly need the pretty videos, fun jargon, and fancy graphs, then be my guest. But this man's methods are not the best. The core techniques work...but you could learn about those within ten minutes using the site tuts. I'll say it again: There is nothing special about this man's methods.

Mario, I appreciate your post. You are right about many things, but not all the methods can be found on this site, unless they refer to L101, and many of the methods that cant be found on this site frankly rock lol.. other than that, I give up.. I just want to help the community as a whole and for them to be kept open to methods that work.. I have to quit posting in this thread because the idiocy in some posts, (not yours), is amazing lol

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Originally Posted by Mzzkc

The biggest difference between Dr. LaBerge and Mr. Newport remains, quite frankly, one is certified as an expert on the subject, while the academic credentials of the other are non-existent.

It's like comparing a pharmacist to a drug dealer.

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1 - Both of them are experts. Look in a dictionary.

2 - A pharamacist is a drug dealer. Look in a dictionary.

And LaBerge is a filthy capitalist. I agree with the poll of 38 to 0.

Dude, you don't bother to understand the meaning and implications of my post, and then start telling me to look in a dictionary? That's pretty sad.

I guess I'll spell it out for you in simple speech, then:

- LaBerge has a doctorate in the study of lucid dreaming.

- Newport probably doesn't even have a bachelor's.

- Pharmacists sell prescription medication and the like, which is all backed (hopefully) by years of research and development.

- Drug dealers, the kind you'd find at a street corner somewhere, generally have enough knowledge to sell their products effectively, but buyer beware.

- If you're going to compare Newport and LaBerge based on their capitalist ventures, make sure you're ready to do a full comparison.

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Originally Posted by mcwillis

2 - A pharamacist is a drug dealer. Look in a dictionary.

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Pharmacist in training here. I can tell you right now that a pharmacist that works in a hospital, behind a counter, in R&D, or wherever, is absolutely, positively, not anything like your off-the-street drug dealer. The Pharm.D. degree is a minimum 6 years of intense schooling. We are responsible for the health, well-being, and very lives of our customers. It is not a job to be taken lightly.

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Originally Posted by atkins513

Watch the video and you may understand, as far as Lostontrains, you've successfully proven yourself as an idiot.

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Mate, I don't really know what I've said to upset you. So far all I've done is criticise the videos, but you are taking it all personally and getting so butthurt by it all that now you are resorting to personal insults.
This is a discussion board. It means we are allowed to provide arguments and counter-arguments to anyone's opinion. The key is to not take is personally when somebody doesn't agree with you.

It is pretty obvious what you are doing here, you tried to stop people posting here but that didn't work so now you are trolling with dumb insults trying to get people annoyed so that this thread decends into a flame-war and gets locked.

And you keep saying that newbs would read this thread and not be able to form their own unbiased opinions. Well that should be kinda insulting to them don't you think? I'm pretty sure they can make their own mind up despite this thread or any other. The opinion of yours that you need to ''save the newbs from these damaging threads'' is very patronizing.

I think you need to re-read the forum rules and guidelines before posting. Specifically the area regarding. Be respectful and tolerant of other users.
I said earlier not to take it all so personally, so I don't see why you are being so rude.

This is a heated and passionate discussion. This thread and your thread can co-exist! We can live in a tolerant and progressive society if we all just learn to get along and respect each other!
Peace and love, brother.

everybody thinks they're right

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Originally Posted by LostOnTrains

Ah, so you're saying it works like this?
http://www.dreamviews.com/attachment...3&d=1296621344

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HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA oh man that just brightened up my dad lolololololololololol

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Originally Posted by WLLPEREGOY

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA oh man that just brightened up my dad lolololololololololol

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You read these forums with your father present?

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Originally Posted by WLLPEREGOY

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA oh man that just brightened up my dad lolololololololololol

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http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Ajte5sqVw3...disappoint.gif