Thread: Stop Drop and Roll. Why Lucidology and Nicholas Newport are creating misinformation.

Lo Aquanina

At 7 I secretly cut myself trying to die. At nine I took handfuls of my abusive dads tuberculosis tablets hoping to die. No one knew about my termination attempt till I casually mentioned then aged 21.

At 10 mum escaped dad and was living as a housekeeper on a big sheep and cattle property here in Australia. She got hooked on Lobsang Ramper and his astral projection. She would come running to my room to read an exciting bit she just read from a new paperback she bought.

Lobsang Rampa wrote a whole book about an old soldier who blew his brains out cos he couldn't live with his war injuries. That made me drop any more attempts at suicide.

Anyway

What attracts me to Nick's work is it is a whole lot like how Lobsang Rampa taught astral travel.

I hate dreams, I hate lucid dreams, I hate OBE's, I hate remote viewing cos I can't do any of it and I try and try and try. I like something else that ain't got a name. I'm good at that but it got me deleted and banned off the main forum at IASD. That happened on the 11/11/2010 and I am still banned.

So

I am back to lonely and boring dreams, lucid dreams and OBE's.

I got Nick's 101 long before it went to YouTube. So my 37 minutes doesn't have any "buy 102" advertising in it.

Today I stopped taking my pain medication and I stopped watching TV so I can keep my brain more receptive to LUCIDITY.

I will post in this MEAN thread how I am working at Lucidity. Cos you mods sound like you going to delete the other thread. (I'll be back later)

I too had to pay for my lucidology 101 course too before it became free and I was very happy with my purchase. I bought it because of the positivity of the testimonials at the saltcube website. My first attempt at his method - a very nice easy lucid dream. In fact it doesn't get much easier than this for a lot of people. Wake up, start the flash timer, go back to sleep and have a lucid dream. And Nick has decided to kindly now give us this for free.

It is past midnight now here so I'm off to bed.

I've been watching my old 101 download and pulled out some exerts. Here they are:

37 minute 101 download, long before it was chopped-up and put on YouTube.

(00:25) Welcome to volume one of "The How to have Lucid Dreams and have Out of Body Experiences presentation series". In this presentation you'll learn how to trick your body into falling asleep to enter a Lucid Dream. (...)

...To keep your mind awake while you fall asleep.

...So you can fall asleep quickly but without falling so far asleep that you can't become Lucid.

(1:16) Are you aware that you are in a dream and do you remember that your body is asleep in bed?.

(1:33) It is by consciously remembering that your body is really asleep in bed that you go the full circle to become Lucid.

(2:42) Sleep paralysis is the protection mechanism that the body uses when you sleep.

(3:13) But we're going to learn about entering a state called "mind-awake, body-asleep" in which we will remain aware and feel what it's like to watch the body shut-down and put itself to sleep.

(3:45) When you enter full-sleep-paralysis (...) you will still be able to move your eyes and look around and control your breathing.

(4:05) The basic strategy is to trick the body into thinking its already asleep.

(4:30) Normally, if you're awake and you feel that you should fill-over, you just do it without thinking

(4:35) If the mind is asleep then the message is not acted on and the body knows it's safe to shut down (into sleep paralysis).

(5:25) The "roll-over-signal" is just one of the words in the body's language.

(5:27) Another word in this language is "to keep the eye's extremely still".

The body expects to be still for a long period before it (initiates sleep paralysis). But, inactivity in the eyes makes the bigest in fooling the body (into initiating sleep paralysis).

(5:55) If you close your eyes and try to keep them still you'll find that after about 30 seconds they're still twitching very slightly. It is not easy to totally relax the eyes. However, if you can keep them at complete ease for several minutes the body will interpret that as a signal that the mind may have fallen asleep.

So,

In order to practice falling asleep quickly, when you go to sleep at night, put special attention on the eyes and let them relax deeply until there is no tension in them at all.

It may take several nights of practice but once you get the feeling for having "very relaxed eyes" it becomes much easier to relax them again.

(6:33) You should practice getting a feeling for what the eyes feel like when you first wake-up in the morning before you even open your eyes.

In fact practicing not moving at all when you first wake-up is a good Lucid Dreaming skill. Often times if you have not moved at all when you wake-up you can relax directly back into your most recent dream and slip into paralysis again.

(that's from the first 7 minutes of my 37 minute 101 down-load.)

Past midnight here, so, night-night.

Originally Posted by atkins513

Anyone who wishes to have a honest fair discussion about these methods, feel free to join my thread. For the communist political types, feel free to continue here, as I don't wish to have that type if negativity in my thread.

How the hell are we communist? Now you're just delusional. Obviously I care about teaching people to lucid dream. I've been doing it RIGHT HERE FOR THE LAST 7 YEARS....ABSOLUTELY FREE!!!!!!! Imagine that.

I never said his methods don't work. I said they don't work for me, and I feel like this guy is doing exactly what he has been accused of doing in this very same thread. Creating new terms to confuse people into thinking his ideas are novel and deserve to be paid for. It's ridiculous. But that's my opinion, it's up to each and every person to decide these things for themselves.

Originally Posted by Aquanina

How the hell are we communist? Now you're just delusional. Obviously I care about teaching people to lucid dream. I've been doing it RIGHT HERE FOR THE LAST 7 YEARS....ABSOLUTELY FREE!!!!!!! Imagine that.

I never said his methods don't work. I said they don't work for me, and I feel like this guy is doing exactly what he has been accused of doing in this very same thread. Creating new terms to confuse people into thinking his ideas are novel and deserve to be paid for. It's ridiculous. But that's my opinion, it's up to each and every person to decide these things for themselves.

exactly right aquanina that makes no freaking sense. how the hell ARE we communist for discussing this. he just wants all the attention on his thread. why the hell do we need a new thread. the stuff discussed here is exactly on topic.

and to atkins if you don't want negativity in your thread HOW THE HELL WILL WE ACTUALLY DISCUSS THIS!?? an argument has both positive sides for the topic and negative sides. pretty much what he is saying is "come to my thread if you are a nick newport fanboy!!!!"

my god atkins

Originally Posted by debrajane

It is past midnight now here so I'm off to bed.

I've been watching my old 101 download and pulled out some exerts. Here they are:

37 minute 101 download, long before it was chopped-up and put on YouTube.

(00:25) Welcome to volume one of "The How to have Lucid Dreams and have Out of Body Experiences presentation series". In this presentation you'll learn how to trick your body into falling asleep to enter a Lucid Dream. (...)

...To keep your mind awake while you fall asleep.

...So you can fall asleep quickly but without falling so far asleep that you can't become Lucid.

(1:16) Are you aware that you are in a dream and do you remember that your body is asleep in bed?.

(1:33) It is by consciously remembering that your body is really asleep in bed that you go the full circle to become Lucid.

(2:42) Sleep paralysis is the protection mechanism that the body uses when you sleep.

(3:13) But we're going to learn about entering a state called "mind-awake, body-asleep" in which we will remain aware and feel what it's like to watch the body shut-down and put itself to sleep.

(3:45) When you enter full-sleep-paralysis (...) you will still be able to move your eyes and look around and control your breathing.

(4:05) The basic strategy is to trick the body into thinking its already asleep.

(4:30) Normally, if you're awake and you feel that you should fill-over, you just do it without thinking

(4:35) If the mind is asleep then the message is not acted on and the body knows it's safe to shut down (into sleep paralysis).

(5:25) The "roll-over-signal" is just one of the words in the body's language.

(5:27) Another word in this language is "to keep the eye's extremely still".

The body expects to be still for a long period before it (initiates sleep paralysis). But, inactivity in the eyes makes the bigest in fooling the body (into initiating sleep paralysis).

(5:55) If you close your eyes and try to keep them still you'll find that after about 30 seconds they're still twitching very slightly. It is not easy to totally relax the eyes. However, if you can keep them at complete ease for several minutes the body will interpret that as a signal that the mind may have fallen asleep.

So,

In order to practice falling asleep quickly, when you go to sleep at night, put special attention on the eyes and let them relax deeply until there is no tension in them at all.

It may take several nights of practice but once you get the feeling for having "very relaxed eyes" it becomes much easier to relax them again.

(6:33) You should practice getting a feeling for what the eyes feel like when you first wake-up in the morning before you even open your eyes.

In fact practicing not moving at all when you first wake-up is a good Lucid Dreaming skill. Often times if you have not moved at all when you wake-up you can relax directly back into your most recent dream and slip into paralysis again.

(that's from the first 7 minutes of my 37 minute 101 down-load.)

Past midnight here, so, night-night.

really, Really, REALLY now i'm not as good as people at lucid dreaming on here but it seems to me that all he is doing is just DDDDDDRRRRRAAAAAGGGGGIIIIINNNNNGGGGG out the technique we call a WILD which was invented by stephen la berge which really gives no justice to him saying " oh all the other techniques didn't work here come try mine!!!" all he is really saying is "don't move too much when you wild and now here come buy this bullshit program i invented and no one else is a good as me"

that is really the message i got from that video

He makes it to complicated

I've been staying away from this thread the best I can, but it isn't the discussion I have a problem with, its how the very first post started off the discussion. The guy who started it, now absent, was a nuisance to DV. He ran from thread to thread attacking them and started threads attacking good methods, not just lucidology. This thread started off pushing newbies away from very good methods that work very well for many people, Hence, knocking newbies out of many opportunities for lucidity, thus slowing their progress. Had I listened to the things I found here about lucidology when I first found it, as a newbie, I would be far behind from where I am now. I found this thread when I first joined DV and went against its advice eventually finding that it was misinformation. THAT is why I am here. I want to help as many people as I can to learn lucid dreaming, not set them back as this thread would have me had I paid it any attention. Also, lucidology 101 is free and has lots of good information for New lucid dreamers. I'm not trying to sell L102, because it's also easily found for free.

Guys, I was a newbie. Regardless of whether these methods work for everyone, They work very very well for some newbies and should be discussed in a fair light as well.

We aren't enemies as I would assume we all have the same goals for the DV community.

Anyways, have fun here guys.

Originally Posted by atkins513

I've been staying away from this thread the best I can, but it isn't the discussion I have a problem with, its how the very first post started off the discussion. The guy who started it, now absent, was a nuisance to DV. He ran from thread to thread attacking them and started threads attacking good methods, not just lucidology. This thread started off pushing newbies away from very good methods that work very well for many people, Hence, knocking newbies out of many opportunities for lucidity, thus slowing their progress. Had I listened to the things I found here about lucidology when I first found it, as a newbie, I would be far behind from where I am now. I found this thread when I first joined DV and went against its advice eventually finding that it was misinformation. THAT is why I am here. I want to help as many people as I can to learn lucid dreaming, not set them back as this thread would have me had I paid it any attention. Also, lucidology 101 is free and has lots of good information for New lucid dreamers. I'm not trying to sell L102, because it's also easily found for free.

Guys, I was a newbie. Regardless of whether these methods work for everyone, They work very very well for some newbies and should be discussed in a fair light as well.

We aren't enemies as I would assume we all have the same goals for the DV community.

Anyways, have fun here guys.

dude just get out, nobody really wants you trying to make us come to your thread

Originally Posted by WLLPEREGOY

dude just get out, nobody really wants you trying to make us come to your thread

Umm ok, I was being civil. Shows how immature some people are I guess. You can rest assured I don't want you in my thread. I made a very excellent point and your come back was childish and senseless. Good job. Not to mention you are showing your bias, the same as this thread started off, by not wanting both sides to be debated. Shame to see you say you are struggling with LD'ing yet not open to all methods apparently.

Have a good one.

Originally Posted by atkins513

Umm ok, I was being civil. Shows how immature some people are I guess. You can rest assured I don't want you in my thread. I made a very excellent point and your come back was childish and senseless. Good job. Not to mention you are showing your bias, the same as this thread started off, by not wanting both sides to be debated. Shame to see you say you are struggling with LD'ing yet not open to all methods apparently.

Have a good one.

you made your point that you don't want to be on this thread SO WHY THE HELL DO YOU KEEP COMING BACK? and good sir i am open to new methods. at what point did i say nicholas newport doesn't work? i said i don't like how he says he is the only one who has effective methods and that you have to buy a bunch of crap form him. if he said " hi i had trouble with la berges methods, so i have made my versions and they seemed to work for me. I am not saying i am better than them, just trying to bring some different approaches to the methods" but apperantly thats not the case. he says his methods are the only efficent methods.

and that good sir is my problem with nick newport. its not that he is trying new methods its that he says he is the only one who has efficient methods.

i'm sore from mountain biking and not really feeling up to moving around too much tomorrow but i'm sure as hell not wasting my time arguing with you

so go bitch on your own thread

that is all

Wow, Wow, Wow, Wow, Wow.

It is 5:39 pm here, I fished my work and gave in and took some painmess.

I lay down thinking, "O wish some one would share something with me so I can do MY dream thing.

Then my phone went "ding" and I found this.

Originally Posted by WLLPEREGOY

i'm sore from mountain biking and not really feeling up to moving around too much tomorrow but i'm sure as hell not wasting my time arguing with you

so go bitch on your own thread

that is all

I don't OBE or LD to well but I hook up in dreams when people share a slice of life (hehehe)

Basically
That's what got me banned off IASD.

I'D better tread carefully here.

It's not my fault, it just happens.

The name of my thread that the MEAN MODE at IASD obliterated was:

"Not quite remote viewing & Not quite mutual dreaming"

I opened it during the pdc hoping more folk would join in. But it was wiped out in less than a month cos some guy said I was a cyber-stalked.

Be knew this cos he would be discussing something on another forum and I would post something extremely similar in my thread and if IASD didn't do something about me he was going to make a legal issue about it.

So my lovely "synchronizity" thread was deleted and I can't logon any more.

Do you want to sync-up in dreams and reveries Wllperegoy or maybe not.

Originally Posted by atkins513

I made a very excellent point and your come back was childish and senseless.

Yes you did make a very excellent point below. As a child I wanted to be a cosmologist. I was studying Einstein's general and special theory of relativity in the school library during lunch break when I was fourteen. Today I research any method to see if it has any validity in practical application. If I was a newcomer and not heard of L101 and saw this thread I would have researched his videos and experimented with his methods regardless of the general theme of the thread and come to my own conclusions by attempting to replicate Nick's results. I did replicate results as there was clearly valid information in his videos. And the course is jam packed with a lot of very useful practical information that has little discussion here so it was a great idea to have a new thread devoted to discussing these practical applications.

Originally Posted by atkins513

I've been staying away from this thread the best I can, but it isn't the discussion I have a problem with, its how the very first post started off the discussion. The guy who started it, now absent, was a nuisance to DV. He ran from thread to thread attacking them and started threads attacking good methods, not just lucidology. This thread started off pushing newbies away from very good methods that work very well for many people, Hence, knocking newbies out of many opportunities for lucidity, thus slowing their progress. Had I listened to the things I found here about lucidology when I first found it, as a newbie, I would be far behind from where I am now. I found this thread when I first joined DV and went against its advice eventually finding that it was misinformation. THAT is why I am here. I want to help as many people as I can to learn lucid dreaming, not set them back as this thread would have me had I paid it any attention. Also, lucidology 101 is free and has lots of good information for New lucid dreamers. I'm not trying to sell L102, because it's also easily found for free.

Guys, I was a newbie. Regardless of whether these methods work for everyone, They work very very well for some newbies and should be discussed in a fair light as well.

We aren't enemies as I would assume we all have the same goals for the DV community.

Originally Posted by WLLPEREGOY

He says his methods are the only efficent methods.

and that good sir is my problem with nick newport. its not that he is trying new methods its that he says he is the only one who has efficient methods.

Where does he say that in the videos? The last time I spoke to Nick I said I have found techniques that have been far more effective than the ones in Lucidology 101. He asked me what they were. I told him and he replied a couple of weeks later thanking me with several exclamation marks, suggesting he found the information to be really enlightening. That isn't the attitude of a man that says I am the only one that has the only efficient methods is it?

Originally Posted by debrajane

Basically that's what got me banned off IASD.

That is a forum specifically setup for the scientific community and probably why. If I was a member there I would be very careful.

Originally Posted by debrajane

I'D better tread carefully here.

No, you can speak your mind here. Unless you were to be horrendously venemous then I think you might have an administrator delivering a serious warning of infraction. Which I can see you won't

I watched the first 2 videos, only because someone on this website recommended them. I'm sad to say I didn't recognize the specific logical flaws pointed out. Something about the claimed mind/body separateness felt wrong, but I didn't stop to think about it. I am dissappointed in myself. I try to be a good critical thinker, maybe I need to try harder. Still, the videos sickened me. There's a way people have of talking or writing when they're trying to sell you something. Even though he only mentioned that what he offered was 'free', his dishonest 'marketing' tone of voice and way of obviously 'advertising' made it obvious there was some hidden cost.

Originally Posted by Dianeva

I watched the first 2 videos, only because someone on this website recommended them. I'm sad to say I didn't recognize the specific logical flaws pointed out. Something about the claimed mind/body separateness felt wrong, but I didn't stop to think about it. I am dissappointed in myself. I try to be a good critical thinker, maybe I need to try harder. Still, the videos sickened me. There's a way people have of talking or writing when they're trying to sell you something. Even though he only mentioned that what he offered was 'free', his dishonest 'marketing' tone of voice and way of obviously 'advertising' made it obvious there was some hidden cost.

Personally I wouldn't have thought that way. I would have digested the free information and if it was effective I would have considered the paid course. Having studied the paid course I understand why it took him four years to put together and why it isn't dishonest marketing. It is information that is generally only known to a small handful of yogi's in Asia. It is actually very good value for what you get.

Originally Posted by WLLPEREGOY

really, Really, REALLY now i'm not as good as people at lucid dreaming on here but it seems to me that all he is doing is just DDDDDDRRRRRAAAAAGGGGGIIIIINNNNNGGGGG out the technique we call a WILD which was invented by stephen la berge which really gives no justice to him saying " oh all the other techniques didn't work here come try mine!!!" all he is really saying is "don't move too much when you wild and now here come buy this bullshit program i invented and no one else is a good as me"

that is really the message i got from that video

Stephen LaBerge didn't invent the WILD technique, he just changed the words and the terms so he could claim he invented it. People have been doing it for thousands of years. It is called Yoga Nidra (Yogic Sleep) in India, it is called many things in many cultures. I will compromise and say that Stephen LaBerge rediscovered it and shared with us his understanding and methods, much like this Nick Newport guy does. Stephen LaBerge also sells books where he shares his techniques. I would never buy a book or CD by either Stephen LaBerge or Nick Newport because I don't need to. I also rediscovered how to WILD as a child (that rhymes) and had my own method. I did not know the scientific explanations, but that didn't matter, because I was a child and I knew how to do it. I tried to teach a few people in high school. I didn't ask for money though. But I don't think that it is wrong to make a living sharing your techniques that work, even if the techniques have been around before in different language. Some people benefit from a different point of view. Maybe it is his style of marketing that repels y'all. Maybe you should blame his agent.

So I heard that he now shares it for free? Good for him. I don't know hardly anything about him, but on the surface his technique seems very similar to mine that I discovered by myself as a child. So, if I hadn't discovered it for myself, his techniques would have probably helped me achieve lucidity faster than other techniques. There needs to be a variety and diversity of techniques for different minds.

Originally Posted by Dianeva

Something about the claimed mind/body separateness felt wrong, but I didn't stop to think about it. I am dissappointed in myself. I try to be a good critical thinker, maybe I need to try harder. Still, the videos sickened me. There's a way people have of talking or writing when they're trying to sell you something. Even though he only mentioned that what he offered was 'free', his dishonest 'marketing' tone of voice and way of obviously 'advertising' made it obvious there was some hidden cost.

Yea I know exactly what you mean, that mind / body separateness really just seems to make no sense at all, when its coming from lucidology, but to hear the wild tutorial below explain it.. almost exactly the same way using the same "confusing made up terms" from lucidology, everyone here at dv seems to love it.. hmm

Don't get me wrong because I really like Jeffs tutorial as well.. probably because its the same as the mind awake/body asleep video of L101 and I'm pretty sure there was some bashing in the earlier threads of that exact method... yet its loved below in this tutorial. lol

Also, some of those "made up confusing terms' are used here in Jeffs tutorial. (mind awake/body asleep) (eye-micro-movements) (breathing exercises) and he even talks about how bodily hormones affect wilding based on day and night, ie serotonin/melatonin. Sounds to me like he's had a lesson in L101. I know some of you will say that these are all regular things in Lucid Dreaming, and they are, but to have them all together in one small tutorial goes to show something in my eyes.

http://www.dreamviews.com/f79/mind-a...utorial-42271/

Isn't this tutorial awesome everyone? But doesn't L101 suck so bad... Jeff received 34 thank yous for his L101 rewrite.

I guess noone uses whois anymore. :/ At any rate, since this thread has been causing somewhat of a stir, I decided to do some digging myself. But here's a bit of back info first. Back in 2007 I discovered the saltcube website and decided to buy the dvd. Matt Jones is the owner of the saltcube website and the narrator in the dvd. I became curious and wanted more info on this "putting your body to sleep" method so I googled that exact term. A website came up called smoke and mirrors (created as a sub-directory under the infernowolf site). The smoke and mirrors page has been removed for some time but the URL in which I copied the site from was put (and has always remained) at the bottom of the Mind Awake, Body Asleep (formerly How to trick your body into falling asleep while keeping your mind awake) post. I put it there when I created the thread so that people would know I wasn't passing this method and the article off as original creations by me. Granted I've found much success with the method, I'm very quick to tell people that it's not my method.

I appreciate the support but I definitely have to agree with a lot of points spaceexplorer and others have made in this thread. If I had the opportunity to go back and offer my own explanation of the method, I probably would.. because if you are coming from a scientific perspective, it can be misleading. On the flip side though, it's very easy for a LD'ing newbie to understand and "get." Which is why so many have found success by using it. Their success, I believe, did not stem from them tricking their bodies into falling asleep. Their success comes from their belief in that method which creates a discipline in themselves when attempting. That in turn yields them the success they attribute BACK to the article. Does the end justify the means? I guess to answer that you should examine the reasons why you came here in the first place. To be right. Or to lucid dream.

As one progresses in their journey, then they can get into the scientifics involved if they want.. but tbh, noone really cares. They just "want it to work." Disagree with me? What's more important.. that your bedside lamp works, or you first understand all the specifics involved that make it work? If you're me, you just want to turn the damn thing on when you need to without needing prequel instructions prior to getting it to work.

The method does not "trick" anything. It merely cultivates discipline in the person..and discipline is the foundation to deliberate lucid dreaming.

Now, to help the article/method save face a bit, the only problem I see is the word "tricking." Everything else is fine. That's the only part of the article I would go back and revise if I could. But that runaway train took off in 2007.. and google took notice. Therefore editing it now would be detrimental. The mind and body are one.

Below are some whois results I pulled up, which kind of surprised me. First is a summary timeline of what happened. I'm sure Matt Jones/Nicholas Newport is pissed that the same material he's selling on his site for tens of dollars is freely being given here. And that it's helped thousands.

Saltcube was created by Matt Jones 2004 ->

Jeff sees saltcube site and searches for more info online and finds smoke and mirrors site and re-posts the article on DV in late 2007 ->

Matt Jones, becoming aware that his sites keywords are being weighted for another site decides to reinvent himself and his product under a new guise and with more complex jargon to convince others that the more complex it is, the better it must be, therefore he creates lucidology.com in 2008 ->

Saltcube.com

Registrant:
Jones, Matt
9364 swaying pine ct
miamisburg, OH 45342
US

Domain Name: SALTCUBE.COM

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Administrative Contact, Technical Contact:
Jones, Matt [email protected]
XXXXX swaying pine ct
miamisburg, OH 45342
US
XXX-XXX-XXXX


Record expires on 05-Sep-2011.
Record created on 05-Sep-2004.
Database last updated on 29-Jan-2011 11:46:24 EST.

Domain servers in listed order:

NS2.SLICEHOST.NET
NS1.SLICEHOST.NET
NS3.SLICEHOST.NET

Lucidology.com

Registrant:
matt jones

9364 swaying pine ct
miamisburg, Ohio 45342
United States

Registered through: GoDaddy.com, Inc. (Domain Names, Web Hosting and SSL Certificates - Go Daddy)
Domain Name: LUCIDOLOGY.COM
Created on: 16-Jan-08
Expires on: 16-Jan-12
Last Updated on: 17-Jan-11

Administrative Contact:
jones, matt [email protected]
XXXX swaying pine ct
miamisburg, Ohio 45342
United States
XXX-XXX-XXXX

Technical Contact:
jones, matt [email protected]
XXXX swaying pine ct
miamisburg, Ohio 45342
United States
XXX-XXX-XXXX

I'm often asked by LD'ers who do I think of Nicholas Newport (remember, Matt Jones of saltcube is the same guy). My usual response is similar to what most of the responses in here are like. I think he's not a bad chap. Just trying to make some money online. But he's over-complicating a subject that does not require graphs or unintelligible technical jargon. That's his gotcha selling point. If you believe you need it, buy it. download it. The purpose as to why you're here or on his site is to LD. I don't care if you have to fap 30 times before breakfast and drink toilet water at night as an LD'ing routine you swear by.

Whatever. Works. For. You. (Just don't tell the paramedics Jeff told you to do that)


- Jeff

I've also decided that this topic is no longer worthy of my attention.

(At least, not until midterms are over.)

Originally Posted by Aquanina

I've also decided that this topic is no longer worthy of my attention.

(At least, not until midterms are over.)

i would just stay off it, i'm done arguing here. internet fights are stupid.

DV is free 2 and you can get plenty of sucess and get ur questions answered here....... just sayin

Well if you think Nick Newport is a slimey salesman just in it for the money then you really should take a look at this concerning Stephen LaBerge.

$522? LaBerge you filthy capitalist!