Thread: Stop Drop and Roll. Why Lucidology and Nicholas Newport are creating misinformation.

I have a friend online who has purchased the 102 set and he has reported to me that it is 99% astral projection. And of that 99% there is a ton of fluff and possibly only 10% relevance leaving the rest as bad practice and shortcuts to the wrong road.

So all you dreamers here, dont waste your time thinking about whats behind door number 102, you're better off in the hands of the seniors here at the forum.

See, this is why I would be very worried if Lucid dreaming became popular to the point of going mainsteram. I would be afraid that everyone would get their info about it from some moron like this, because that's how stuff starts to degrade when it becomes mainstream. Perfect example: martial arts. 70%of the people teaching it nowadays are teaching some new age pseudo-martial arts bullshit just to make a profit.

More on-topic: all this guy is doing is spewing some made up bullshit that sounds legit to make a quick buck off of it. I'm with Shift, this thread should be stickied in newbie zone.

yeahhh i just watched a few and i see what you all mean now. Some of the stuff he says is helpful, but it's all so stretched out and chock full of lame graphs and unnecessary terms it'd be hard to watch more than three episodes without taking a break to smoke a joint and shave off the beard you grew while he was talking.

Also, I didn't know he was charging money. That's not cool. -_-

Originally Posted by Supernova

I'm with Shift, this thread should be stickied in newbie zone.

I'm with Shift and Supernova, this thread should be stickied in the newbie zone

Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

However, it's important to note that Mr Newport, has no qualifications, history or any clear experience to justify his choosing to call himself an expert.

Well, he is the founder and admin of the saltcube website, with thousands of posts on the topic, which is qualification enough for me. He used to call himself Matt Jones, but it's the same guy (if you look up his old posts on saltcube, they all changed from Matt to Nick). I'm not quite sure what other qualification you would expect someone to have to call himself an expert on lucid dreaming.

On the topic of those videos, I can partly see what you mean, but I would not assume that he is just out for a scam. He obviously has found a way to induce LDs that works very well for him, and he thinks that it will work well for others too.

Nobody is denying that he is trying to make money off his video series (lucidology 102), but the videos on youtube are free of charge and, taken with a grain of salt, they are just as good a start into the topic as any other medium. Still beats not having any idea of how to induce LDs at all. As I see it, he is basically just strongly promoting WBTB, which is a fine thing to do for beginners. Also, using a timer to keep you on the threshold of sleep without having to use visualization is not the worst thing to get your feet wet. After a while you should get annoyed enough by this to just learn WILDing without external devices, but by then you may at least have the motivation it takes to learn it.

Anyone who is really interested in LDing should be intelligent enough not to trust one source of information only, but rather keep on searching the internet and bookstores for different viewpoints and angles to the topic (like this forum or the LaBerge books).


However, I agree that not all he says should be taken as the one and only truth. It seems that some of the information he provides there is just to give some (seemingly) logical explanation and fill some gaps in order to make the whole program seem more coherent.

Let's just not bash him too hard. I used to frequent the saltcube website before I found DV, and some of the information there even helped me to some of my earlier experiences. Also, Nick always seemed to be helpful to anyone asking questions on the forum, thereby basically giving away all the information in the videos for free. Nowadays saltcube has gotten kinda boring, but thats another story.


Again, anyone who has a sincere interest in the topic (or in any topic, fwiw) should be smart enough to seek out as many information from all kinds of sources and get his or her own picture. As for some youtube kiddies who are looking for a short thrill and could slightly be mislead by those video...well, what can I say, I couldnt care less about them.



Just my 0.02$

Originally Posted by lemmefly

As for some youtube kiddies who are looking for a short thrill and could slightly be mislead by those video...well, what can I say, I couldnt care less about them.

Do you mind if I ask why you couldn't care less about these people?

Originally Posted by DreamQueen

Do you mind if I ask why you couldn't care less about these people?

I dont mind.

Anyone who is sincerely interested in lucid dreaming and wants to learn the skillset involved deserves my respect and should get all the help in the world.

As for these halfhearted early quitters ("I have tried to LD for almost 3 days now and still no success, this is all fake, I think i'm gonna quit" etc.) - you guys know who you are - they are the people I am talking about.

If you dont really want this and put effort into it, it's just not gonna work out for you, thats why I couldnt care less for these people (regarding LD of course, I'm not some kind of misanthrope).

Hope that clears it up.

I watched the video, and even with no sound (my girlfriend is asleep) it was actually pretty good. Who cares if he uses his own language to describe it? I personally get annoyed when people enshrine Laberge's language like it is the definitive way to describe lucid dreaming. WBTB, WILD, etc... all of that was just laberge doing exactly what you accuse Newport of doing and he is making much more than just a quick buck off of the whole thing. As far as I can tell, what he is doing is absolutely no different than what goes on at this site, except maybe that he makes pretty professional looking videos to accompany his tutorials; something some of the members here should start considering to get us a little more face time with the public.

I'd also like to know how many of you that are bashing the videos as 'made up crap' have read Jeff777's tutorial that presents almost identical info as the stop drop and roll video. Jeff, I think these people just called your stuff crap.

Originally Posted by lemmefly

Hope that clears it up.

Yep, it does thanks

I got on here to say, I actually just incorporated some of his technique's into my nightly ritual of attempting lucidity. I haven't had much luck with getting lucid in months and had one of the most amazing and easy WILDs I've ever had in my life just between my last post and this one. I didn't follow his technique explicitly, and just supplemented other things I've done in the past but boy did it do wonders.

Xaqaria, for a start, WBTB is not a term coined by Laberge.
And without LaBerge, I'd be willing to put money on Lucid Dreaming still being vitrually unheard of... to you and me both.

And what Newport does is very different from what goes on on this site.

This site: people come together, share there ideas, work together, develop ideas, for a community etc.

Newport: Runs his own forum (so HE is in control, becomes the expert)
Makes a load of videos, claiming everyone else is wrong and only HE knows the way to make you lucid.

And whoever it was who said that Newports credentials are "running a forum."
Is that all it takes to get a qualification nowadays?
Would you let someone who ran a forum for Pilots fly a plane for you?
Hell, im going to go make my own brainsurgeon forum!

Most important factors with Newport to me are these:

* He claims only he is right.
* He Bashes every other lucid dream technique
* He rewrites the terminology, so that only he is the expert in terminology.
* He deletes critical or questioning comments from his youtube videos.
* His information is basically false and misleading.
* His Graphs, if you take the time to look at them, make NO SENSE.

One way or the other, I've been lucid dreaming for about 17 years now and still found instant improvement by just incorporating some of the ideas he presented in one video. I'd say this is enough evidence to not try to scare people away from what he has to say. I didn't get half as bad an impression from what I saw as the one you are presenting here, and the diagrams in the stop drop and roll video are actually very straight forward and mirror a lot of the info available here and elsewhere. If you'd like me to explain them to you, I'd be more than happy to. Anyone who has had trouble with WILD's would benefit from a better understanding of what he has to say about the "roll over signal".

I have to ask though, I didn't read through all of the info available from this guy so I'm wondering, where exactly did he claim only he is right and bash every other lucid dream technique? The only thing I saw that might apply to what you are saying is the bit that showed all of the books he read but couldn't find the info he was looking for, and the bit where he says that Reality checking is an unreliable technique. Reality checking is an unreliable technique, and at least I personally have had absolutely zero success with it even though I consider myself a fairly skilled lucid dreamer.

I will say now, the information that I saw is not wrong. The Roll over signal stuff is spot on compared to my own experiences prior to having watched the video, and is extremely similar to stuff you can find on dreamviews, particularly Jeff777's tutorial on making your body fall asleep.

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

One way or the other, I've been lucid dreaming for about 17 years now and still found instant improvement by just incorporating some of the ideas he presented in one video. I'd say this is enough evidence to not try to scare people away from what he has to say. I didn't get half as bad an impression from what I saw as the one you are presenting here, and the diagrams in the stop drop and roll video are actually very straight forward and mirror a lot of the info available here and elsewhere. If you'd like me to explain them to you, I'd be more than happy to. Anyone who has had trouble with WILD's would benefit from a better understanding of what he has to say about the "roll over signal".

I have to ask though, I didn't read through all of the info available from this guy so I'm wondering, where exactly did he claim only he is right and bash every other lucid dream technique? The only thing I saw that might apply to what you are saying is the bit that showed all of the books he read but couldn't find the info he was looking for, and the bit where he says that Reality checking is an unreliable technique. Reality checking is an unreliable technique, and at least I personally have had absolutely zero success with it even though I consider myself a fairly skilled lucid dreamer.

I will say now, the information that I saw is not wrong. The Roll over signal stuff is spot on compared to my own experiences prior to having watched the video, and is extremely similar to stuff you can find on dreamviews, particularly Jeff777's tutorial on making your body fall asleep.

At least Jeffs tutorial is open to discussion and

Ok let's try a different approach...

Which part of the body would you say "tests the mind to see if it is asleep" and then sends a "roll over signal"?
As the guy says, it's testing the brain, so without the brain where is this amazing bit of self awareness existing in the body? making it's own choices independent of the brain?
The heart? the spleen? the lungs?

I'm not saying staying still during WILD attempts is a bad idea.
I agree fully, i think that you will feel the need to move etc.
However, the idea that the body is testing the mind, is lets face it, in complete contradiction to what we know about the body, mind and sleep paralysis.

What I would say is occuring is sensory magnification.
As your sensory input diminishes from the external world, there is more scope for your mind to focus on the smaller details, the itches, the aches etc.
They become magnified. And because we are consciously aware, rather than in our normal drunken style falling asleep mind, the process is far more direct and intense.

It is not the body testing you, it is sensory input distracting you.
And to fall asleep properly, you want to dissassociate from sensory input so that your mind is free to create it's own world based on internal data.

So if this guys MAIN theory, is based on nonsense. What does that say about the rest of his work?
Sure the CONCEPT of staying still may work, but if the THEORY is jibberish, that dosn't say much about the teacher does it?
Which books was he reading exactly? the medival book of biology and witchcraft?

As for the graphs, i can understand exactly what he is doing... making them up as he goes along. They serve no purpose other than to make him look "scientific".

So yes, staying still works.
We all know that.
Making up 10 minutes of nonsense to convey a really basic idea that can be said in 10 seconds, and then trying to build a theory that contradicts biology and psychology... well sorry, but the guy reminds me of a 10 year old who has read a book on dinosaurs and now considers himself the world expert. He's got that same patronising tone, and the same "ooh look at me arn't i clever" attitude.

Great if it works for you, but considering the theory and concepts are based on something some guy has plucked out of the air,
I'd say score one placebo and suggestion.... and a horrific loss for logic and reasoning.

I agree with spaceexplorer. It's just ridiculous to claim that the "body is testing to see if the mind is asleep". What next? The bedside lamp is testing to see if you've gone to sleep so it can switch itself off?

And yes, his diagrams and graphs, really help simplify what he has to say (sarcam)



I mean look at this... seriously.
WTF was this guy on some kind of LSD and Crayon spree?


Now, look at that "helpful diagram"
and compare it to this sentence: If you want to move whilst falling asleep, try not to.

(and remember, this is one diagram from a ten minute video, a video that also can be summed up in the above sentence)



The guy is one big Red Herring.
He overcomplicates the most simple ideas, in an attempt to sound intelligent whilst at the same time confusing, muddying and throwing misleading information around.

The only "urge surge" i get from watching these videos is to puke.

Originally Posted by DreamQueen

I agree with spaceexplorer. It's just ridiculous to claim that the "body is testing to see if the mind is asleep".

Yeah, I would have to agree that thats rubbish.
But I wouldn't get to worried about it. Obviously he's refering to a part of the mind testing whether you are awake by generating urges to move the body.
I'm not sure it really matters, the end result is the same.

I'm torn on this one. I think Astral Traveling is a piece of nonsense.
Theres also no way in the world I would pay for 102.

But some of whats described which corellates to my WILD experiences.
At least half the times I've wilded I've actually done so not long after rolling over.

I've come to realise that lying perfectly still isn't completely neccesary.
That it is possible to move and still enter SP quickly afterwards.
I've never quite understood why. That It may be to do with catching these "test signals" seems to make sense to me.

I also found the staged relaxation techniques to be quite good.
The first time I tried the stop drop and roll technique it worked for me.

I'm not a 100% sold on it by any means. But I did enjoy the videos and do feel they added to the breadth of my knowledge.

Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

I mean look at this... seriously.
WTF was this guy on some kind of LSD and Crayon spree?

That graph is explaining that in the "Urge Surge" scenario, the urge to roll over slowly increases, and then becomes very intense for a short moment, then goes away.

Not saying I agree with any certain person's views here, just explaining to you what that graph means.

Originally Posted by çrepgrigo

That graph is explaining that in the "Urge Surge" scenario, the urge to roll over slowly increases, and then becomes very intense for a short moment, then goes away.

Not saying I agree with any certain person's views here, just explaining to you what that graph means.

Perhaps you didn't read what I wrote?
I'm fully aware of the point he is belaboring to death.

My point is not "what does the graph mean", fortunatly I do have a functioning human brain - and regardless of the messy nonsense of the graph, im well aware of the point he is trying to make.

My point is: Why create a mangled confused mess of a graph/diagram to explain something that can be said in one sentence?

The Graph/Diagram serves no purpose other than to create the illusion of intelligence/authority on his behalf, or to add an air of "science". It certainly
does nothing to clarify or simplify the situation.

It's advertising spin. It's designed to confuse with seeming information overload. It's an old advertising/political/hypnosis trick...
Confuse the mind with statistics, facts or whatever... then throw in your sales line. Because the mind is bored of the confusion and lack of clarity, it latches on to the easy to digest punch line. Watch politicians, they do it all the time... i'll make up an example of what a politician will often do, it is only the final sentence that they wish to embed:


"Juvenial crime statistics show us that, in deteriorating urban enviroments, at least 24% of the ethnic minoritys, that account for 56% of the larger populous, are victim to racial offences. This can be easily seen through a statistical breakdown of the figures between 1996-2006 in which the percentage of criminal damage in the mid ranges, for the period of july to september 2006, is exactly 22% above the mean average of the proceeding years.... Of course, if we raise taxes, we can afford more police, which will help deal with these issues."

(ok it's a bit of a silly example, but maybe it gets the point across)

This is exactly what newport is trying to do.
Confuse a simple point, to create an air of authority and understanding in himself, so that the punchline "buy stage two of the course" becomes more appealing.


Plus I find the whole "urge surge", "brain and body not being able to communicate directly", ""learn the special language of how the body tests the brain"... to be, frankly, a load of old bull.
What is happening is an amplification of bodily sensations due to a lack of sensory stimulous.
God, you can prove it yourself, put some ear plugs in, close your eyes, and try and sit still for 15 minutes. Suddently the little bits of discomfort and itchy feelings are amplified...

Is this the body "testing the mind to see if it's asleep"?
or is it simply: noticing the little things, because most of your sensory input has been shut out?

Or if you want a more poetic example...

You can only see the stars at night, because the sun has set.
During the daytime, the sun is so bright in comparison, that it overwhelms the starlight. The stars havn't gone... we just can't see them because something much brighter is there to overwhelm it.

If you swap the word Sun for "sensory perceptions"
and the word stars for "minor bodily sensations"
it's the exact same thing.

What Newport is saying... is that the stars don't exist when the sun is up, and they only appear BECAUSE they are some kind of magical test.

Wheres we all know, the stars are always there, we just cant see them unless the more important, brighter distractions are out of the way.

yeah i watched his videos and were so confusing and what is the difference between a lucid dream and an OBE

Originally Posted by JeremyLeroy96

yeah i watched his videos and were so confusing and what is the difference between a lucid dream and an OBE

In his videos, it seems OBE = WILD and LD = DILD, just how I interpreted it.

Whether his graphs make sense or not, they were confusing to me. I understood some parts, but overall I was confused. So, that's lame.

And, my personality is, I'm not interested in a lot of hype. As it did appear a lot of hype. Very classic salesman type approach.

Doesn't matter if some parts are true. Whenever someone tries to mainstream something, it's for profit. And, to make profit, you have to make the product look like the only irresistible and perfect thing in the world, which is usually just hype.

Boorrring.

If you're interested in something, avoid the ones who go out of their way to appear they are the authority on that something. It's just a principle I live by in general.

I think he dosn't want to make a distinction between OBEs and Lucid dreams.
He can make more cash off of both groups that way. Marketing and sales seem more important to him.

Shame he hasn't got more integrity, because it's confusing people, and may put off some decent newcomers to the subject.

yeah it's true his videos made my friend give up because it was too confusing i told him i found and ignored those videos the 5 layers of lucid dreaming really helped me

Originally Posted by JeremyLeroy96

yeah it's true his videos made my friend give up because it was too confusing

This doesn't surprise me. I think if I'd found his videos before I'd actually had a lucid dream I may well have decided lucid dreaming was baloney due to the new-agey psuedo-scientific way he's presenting it.

I have a hard enough time convincing people who know and trust me that "yes you really can become aware that you are dreaming and carry on with the dream and it is actually an amazing experience". If I started presenting graphs and diagrams to them that were confusing and complicated they'd lose interest for sure which would be such a shame.