An OBE is NOT a Lucid Dream

[Naiya]

According to The International Association for the Study of Dreams-- A lucid dream is when you know you are dreaming. In an OBE, you DON'T believe it's a dream--you believe (at least at the time) that it is somehow real. In short, it can't be a lucid dream if you don't think it's a dream, because it doesn't fit the definition. Whether or not you believe in OBEs, this is what the experts on dreaming agree on. You don't have to believe in astral planes and all that crap to have an OBE. That's a misconception. An OBE is just an experience. What you choose to believe it was after the fact is totally up to you, and nobody else can tell you if you are right or wrong. But don't take my word for it. The International Association for the Study of Dreams has this in their FAQ: Q. Do OBEs, NDEs and AAEs just seem different types of lucid dreams? A. No. First off, even a minimal definition of a lucid dream requires that you realize that you dream during the experience. OBEs, NDEs, and AAEs fail this test because people who have experienced them usually vehemently deny that they could have possibly dreamed it. They did not believe that they dreamed during the experience, and often continue to deny this possibility even after subjected to strong social pressure to do so. Many have reported losing their fear of death after having OBEs and NDEs, or have acquired new and potent fears after AAEs. No one that I know of has reported on lucid dreams having these particular profound effects on those who have experienced them. (see the Appendix in this FAQ). Of course, you can have dreams of OBEs (or NDEs or AAEs) just as you have dreams of anything else. The inexperienced or obtuse often confuse dreams of OBEs with OBEs, thereby confusing the issue. (Also, for more information see the Appendix at the end of this FAQ titled "A Phenomenological Account of Out of Body Experiences") For the full FAQ on "Paranormal dreams," go here: http://asdreams.org/telepathy/faq_paranormal.htm

[Jabrol2001]

interesting artical. Yes i do agree that there is a huge difference between lucid dreaming and an OBE. Ive had atleast 2 obes i can recall and well they are extrememly different then a lucid dream. But thats just my case, and im no scientist.

[marwanin]

Sure. Obe is out of body or astral projection you separate from your physical body and you travel go anywhere you want with your soul, you can visit family in other countries and see what exactly they do ... it's for sure my goal. and lucid dream is a part of obe that let you control your dream. and i'm sure you can switch from obe to LD or the unverse I wish mastering them both

[LucidFlanders]

It could be some type of dreaming. It's really not LDing, as what was said, they are different. They have different characteristics to them. But it could be some type of 2nd dreaming that we don't really have an answer for.

[Jabrol2001]

From my readings on it, the soul is connected to a silver cord, which is connected to your body. And well this is even stated in the bible. And when the cord is severed, you leave your body forever and are in the astral planes forever. Or well idk about forever, i really have no idea what goes on in astral planes...

[LucidFlanders]

From my readings on it, the soul is connected to a silver cord, which is connected to your body. And well this is even stated in the bible. And when the cord is severed, you leave your body forever and are in the astral planes forever. Or well idk about forever, i really have no idea what goes on in astral planes... The bible? you need to read new books.

[Naiya]

It could be some type of dreaming. It's really not LDing, as what was said, they are different. They have different characteristics to them. But it could be some type of 2nd dreaming that we don't really have an answer for. I agree with this. But if you read the end of the FAQ, since sometimes there are dreams of OBEs, calling genuine OBEs a dream can confuse things. But yeah, in theory, I agree that it's entirely possible that AP is a type of dreaming, or that dreaming is a type of AP. But yeah, the nature of AP and its relation (if any) to dreaming we can't be completely sure of as of yet. Unfortunately, we just don't know enough about ourselves, and dream research is hard to get funding for.

[Jabrol2001]

Hey, im not saying i read the bible, i just said it was stated in there. And well dont you at all think that its kind of interesting for the bible to mention it??

[Naiya]

I think it's interesting. I don't read the Bible myself or believe in it, but I do think that it has some truths in it. And it is worth noting that there are some cross-cultural similarities with these kinds of phenomenon.

[mentalenforcer]

My closest experience so far was to have a false awakening (not the bed I was sleeping in), then getting out of my (dream) body. Walked over to a full length mirror to check out my dream AP body, or second dream body, or whatever it was. What I saw in the mirror was shaped like a human body, but was composed of bluish-white light. Don't remember a silver cord at all, but then this was a dream, not an actual AP. On the subject of AP in the bible: When you see the Southern Cross For the first time You understand now Why you came this way 'Cause the truth you might be runnin' from Is so small. But it's as big as the promise The promise of a comin' day. So I'm sailing for tomorrow My dreams are a dyin'. And my love is an anchor tied to you Tied with a silver chain. I have my ship And all her flags are a flyin' She is all that I have left And music is her name. Seems like a clear AP reference in there.

[Phantasos]

According to The International Association for the Study of Dreams-- A lucid dream is when you know you are dreaming. In an OBE, you DON'T believe it's a dream--you believe (at least at the time) that it is somehow real. In short, it can't be a lucid dream if you don't think it's a dream, because it doesn't fit the definition. Whether or not you believe in OBEs, this is what the experts on dreaming agree on. The bolded is layman definition. Here is what LaBerge wrote in artice "Varieties of Lucid Dreaming experience": 1. The Reference to State When a lucid dreamer thinks “I am dreaming” there are at least two levels of cognitive activity at work in this thought: a direct experiential realization of, and self-reflection on, ones condition (”I am...”), and an interpretation of the nature of that condition (”…dreaming”). The former is a metacognitive act, the latter a semantic interpretation. The notion of “reference to state” indicates the metacognitive component of the lucid dream context. The reference of subjects to their state of being is not merely declarative knowledge, it is a direct apprehension of their immediate experience. Metacognition is not unique to lucid dreams but also occurs in nonlucid dreams (Kahan and LaBerge, 1994). However, in nonlucid dreams, “reflection during dreaming involves an awareness of conditions within the dream” (ibid., p. 250). That is to say, reflection on events in nonlucid dreams is confined to the contextual scope of the nonlucid dream (typically limited by the absence of the habit of metacognitively checking one’s state). Metacognition during lucid dreams is not confined to events occurring in the dream, but references, either explicitly or implicitly, waking experience as well (DeGracia and LaBerge, 1998). The reference to state in a lucid dream is framed by access to memories of waking experience, allowing a contrast between one’s current situation and the knowledge of waking life. This contrast provides the contextual structure for the metacognitive recognition that the current experience is not a normal waking experience. Hence, lucidity in the context of dreaming, implies metacognition framed by consciously accessible memories of waking experience. 2. The Semantic Framework Individuals who experience lucid dreaming develop a framework of knowledge by which to conceptualize and give meaning to their experiences. These semantic frameworks affect the consciousness of lucid dreamers in a contextual fashion by providing assumptions, expectations and beliefs upon which the lucid dreamers interpret their experiences and acts. Because there is a large diversity of perceptual experience in lucid dreams (to be outlined below), an equally wide variety of semantic frameworks have developed to give meaning to these experiences. The knowledge framework used by a given individual does not require that the experiences be conceptualized by that individual as “a lucid dream”. The semantic framework itself does not even have to be true. How lucid dreamers conceptualize their “non-waking experience” is a function of their general knowledge. Alternative modes of conceptualizing the lucid dream experience include the notions that one is undergoing an “out of body experience” (OBE) or an “astral projection” (reviewed in DeGracia, 1997). The forms taken by one’s reference to state depend on one’s semantic framework. So, the semantic component of the statement “I am dreaming” reflects a knowledge structure conceptualizing the experience as a form of dreaming. A reference to state can just as easily take the forms “I am having an OBE” or “I am having an astral projection”. As one of us stated previously: “…lucid dreams and OBEs [and we will add here, astral projections] are necessarily distinguished by only one essential feature: how the person interprets the experience at the time” (LaBerge, 1985, p. 234) In other words, these are not phenomenologically distinct categories of experience but are alternative conceptualizations of the intrinsic variety present in lucid dream experiences.

[Scatterbrain]

From my experience with dreaming I have no reason to believe OOBEs are not dreams. I had 2 'OOBEs' once when I was younger, even though I already knew lucid dreaming then, I had never had dreams so vivid as the supposed OOBEs so I thought the whole thing was pretty amazing and had to be paranormal (I got completely terrorized and in turn became afraid of falling asleep for weeks). Since then my experience with dreaming has increased and now vivid dreams are much more common, dreams with the same shocking vividness of OOBEs but without the out-of-the-body theme. So imo, the so called out of body experiences are 'just' dreams.

[LucidFlanders]

From my experience with dreaming I have no reason to believe OOBEs are not dreams. I had 2 'OOBEs' once when I was younger, even though I already knew lucid dreaming then, I had never had dreams so vivid as the supposed OOBEs so I thought the whole thing was pretty amazing and had to be paranormal (I got completely terrorized and in turn became afraid of falling asleep for weeks). Since then my experience with dreaming has increased and now vivid dreams are much more common, dreams with the same shocking vividness of OOBEs but without the out-of-the-body theme. So imo, the so called out of body experiences are 'just' dreams. Just dreams, perhaps but not lucid dreaming. They are both different. Just as a regular dream is not a lucid dream.

[Naiya]

Hmm, interesting, LaBerg is actually a member of IASD. So if their FAQ were misleading, you'd think he would ask them to change it, but he hasn't. Sorry, but he is not specifically saying that all OBEs are the same as lucid dreams. In fact, on further reading his work on OBEs, he says "Proof that some or even most OBEs are dreams is not enough to allow us to say that a genuine OBE is impossible." And your quoted portion actually argues the same point I'm making: As one of us stated previously: “…lucid dreams and OBEs [and we will add here, astral projections] are necessarily distinguished by only one essential feature: how the person interprets the experience at the time” In other words, a lucid dream or OBE is defined by how the person describes it. As of right now, there is no proof that an OBE is physically different than a dream, so the definition depends on the subject experience of the person having it.

[Phantasos]

In other words, a lucid dream or OBE is defined by how the person describes it. As of right now, there is no proof that an OBE is physically different than a dream, so the definition depends on the subject experience of the person having it. Seems you do not get it. Let's repeat: In other words, these are not phenomenologically distinct categories of experience but are alternative conceptualizations of the intrinsic variety present in lucid dream experiences. LaBerge stance is that phenomenon is the same, but interpretation is different. Personally I agree with him, the only case OOBE could phenomenologically different if something would indeed come out of the body into physical world.

[Naiya]

I hope you realize that I never argued that OBE and dreams are physically different--you are trying to argue with a point that I never actually asserted. If you had read the entire thread, you'll see me posting the opposite. So you're actually agreeing with the OP, which basically says that you define what is was based on the subjective experience. It has nothing to do with physiological differences of OBE and LD. In other words, an OBE is defined by how the subject PERCEIVES it, not by a physiological difference. Because scientifically speaking there has been no proof that OBE literally and physically exists, the only way we can define it is through subjective experience describing it. In other words: Tom had an experience where he felt he left his body. This is an OBE. Tom had an experience where he knew he was dreaming in a dream. This is a lucid dream. You can argue that both experiences were physiologically the same, but that's a completely different point. The point is, if someone says "I had an OBE," you can't tell them "No you did not, it was a lucid dream" because an OBE is defined by what they experienced, according to LaBerg: "Out of body" experiences (OBEs) are personal experiences during which people feel as if they are perceiving the physical world from a location outside of their physical bodies. Until OBE is proven to be physiologically different from a dream, the ONLY way we can define it is by the subject's experience. So to tell them that they had a lucid dream, not an OBE would be like telling someone they had a nightmare when they said it was a good dream. You are literally arguing against a person's description of their own subjective experience. But, if the FAQ is misleading, I highly suggest you notify IASD and tell them your interpretation is the correct one. Or e-mail it to LaBerg and see if he corrects them. He's a member, so he should find it easy. Because otherwise, it leads people like me astray if they post false information. I would be happy to see you correct them if they are wrong.

[mentalenforcer]

If one were to have an OBE, what could he/she do to determine if it is different from an LD?

[Naiya]

Well, if you believe it's a dream, then it's a lucid dream. If you believe you left your body, then it's an OBE. Now, if you want to prove that you have really left your body, I would suggest you do something like try to read the serial number on the back of your TV and then check to see if the number was right afterwards, that type of thing.

[Phantasos]

Tom had an experience where he felt he left his body. This is an OBE. Tom had an experience where he knew he was dreaming in a dream. This is a lucid dream. You can argue that both experiences were physiologically the same, but that's a completely different point. The point is, if someone says "I had an OBE," you can't tell them "No you did not, it was a lucid dream" because an OBE is defined by what they experienced, according to LaBerg: "Out of body" experiences (OBEs) are personal experiences during which people feel as if they are perceiving the physical world from a location outside of their physical bodies. According to LaBerge's definitions in the said article one can not said "I had OOBE, not Lucid dream" because in LaBerge's term OOBE - is a subtype of lucid dream with specific experience. So (if we are talking about LaBerge's meaning of "OOBE" term) if one said "I had OOBE" it is the same as he said "I had a lucid dream in which I perceived the physical world from a location outside of my physical body (but I do not claim it was real)". But in most cases when one write on the forum "was it OOBE or lucid dream", it means that according to his views there are two different phenomenons - "real OOBE" and LD, and a person does separate one from another. Some people even separate three different phenomenons: OOBE, AP and LD which they, for example, may define as "being REALLY outside real body in physical world", "being REALLY outside real body in objectively existing other worlds", and "being in the world created by subconsciousness" respectively. In this case they define three different phenomenons, and that is usually a point of argument. So your fallacy is that you suppose other people follows your definition of "OOBE" and "Lucid dream". In a lot of cases they are not.

[mentalenforcer]

My thought was to move an object. Something light, yet unlikely to move on its own.

[Tara]

I once had an accidental OBE in the mall. It was incredibly different from a lucid dream. 1. I wasn't even in a position to sleep, I was standing. There was no way it was a lucid dream. 2. The sensations and vision and even the feeling of realization was all different from a lucid dream. So I agree that they're different.

[Jabrol2001]

I agree, ive had many lucid dreams, but the time i had an obe (i still think thats what it was) was 100% different. I "crawled" from my body and just seemed to float in my room. I was weightless, and to my surprise i saw my body laying there sleeping. This scared me. Since ive never heard of an OBE at when this happened. And wow everything was so amazing. Everything seemed heavier.. like it had more force to the ground, and had a darker shade or tint to it, but still had a glowing effect. And the most odd thing was that there was shadows that seemed to just sit on top of everything.. I have no idea really. Seeing all this took only a matter of secends. But seeing my body really freaked me out, and i was then proceeded to get sucked back into my body. Thats the only way i can explain what happened.. It seemed so different from a lucid dream. But thats just what i got from what happened to me.

[Xetrov]

Now, if you want to prove that you have really left your body, I would suggest you do something like try to read the serial number on the back of your TV and then check to see if the number was right afterwards, that type of thing. That's no proof. If a spirit really can leave a body, then we have to assume extra sensory perception (ESP) to be true aswell. Said experiment could then aswell have been done by ESP while subject is not leaving the body. Personally I think there are way more arguments for the ESP explanation. 1. I wasn't even in a position to sleep, I was standing. There was no way it was a lucid dream. 2. The sensations and vision and even the feeling of realization was all different from a lucid dream. Your experience can still be explained as a "dreaming related phenomenon". Dreams can even happen during daytime at a mall, or when driving a car. What happens is your brainwave activity lowers enough (due to some factor, nor sure why exactly, but it can even lower to theta) for the visual cortex to start producing internal images (dreams). It is not very common but has been recorded to happen in quite some cases.

[killguta]

I believe I have had a genuine OOBE. The OOBE started with me suddenly opening my eyes. Nothing seemed strange, except for a slight blue tint in my vision. I tried to get out of the bed and look at the time. When I tried this, I saw that my hands and my upper body started to feel very tingling when trying to move them. The sensation was so powerful and overwhelming that I just gave up after lifting my body up at a maximum of 30 degrees. After some moments, I realized, then, that this was an lucid dream. Trying to walk was out of the question, so I closed my eyes and tried to teleport myself somewhere. After I open my eyes, I see my neighbor's house. I don't remember everything that happened after, but I didn't went back to my body and stuff like that. "Ok, you had a lucid dream, but you still believe it's an OOBE, why?" Well, while looking at an game trailer (usually when looking/hearing something inspiring), I started feeling tingling sensations of pleasure. Nothing strange when you listen to great music or see something inspiring, BUT, this time, it wasn't just tingling. I started feeling as if I was lifting up. For ~2 seconds, I actually felt as if my "ethereal" body was leaving the physical body. This didn't happen while asleep, rather in the midst of day! This tingling sensation comes in random regions of my body and I currently have 3 OOBE experiences (1 asleep and 2 while awake). When I would sit in the bed trying to sleep, I would start feeling my body shaking violently back and forth. I have this "ability" since I was a little child. These two things have made me change my thinking radically. I may be going nuts, or I may be on the verge of spiritual enlightenment or I might have serious brain damage.

[Naiya]

So your fallacy is that you suppose other people follows your definition of "OOBE" and "Lucid dream". In a lot of cases they are not. Sorry, it's not my fallacy. It's IASD's. If their website is wrong, you should tell them so. They're made up of practically all the researchers and scientists who study dreams, so I'm sure they'll listen if they're wrong. My conclusions are based on their information, so if they are wrong I would very much like them to change their website so that it is no longer misleading.