Thread: What is the location of a dream

and now you know what kind of questions made me go insane
LOL
no seriously, I can totally understand your way of thinking and I like the way you question life and challenge yourself with these questions
But I wonder, if you, as I read in another of your posts, can embrace your fears and love them... then why can't you embrace the thought that we simply don't know everyting; or anything
I guess it's like some say: nothing is true (everything is permitted)

Consciousness in itself is rather illusive. To say the least. And how the brain creates reality.
But I would think that the testing done by FMRI, RET and EEG scans do hold some weight when ettemting to pinpoint where dreams at least are generated. Where they can go from there is altogehter onother mystery. astral projection, remote viewing, dream sharing, who knows. If we can't define consciousness and all that is suspect to go with that all the other questions are just that much farther away.
Or are they right in front of us?
But these images, visual, logic and emotion and i would think most importantly memory, are all regions of the brain that do show the same activity of that of a person who is awake.
So unless the waking life is not real. Wich is possible. Then I think it is fair to say that thephysiological basis of dreams are manifested within our minds.

So yes Lucid dreaming is all in my head!

"all in your head"?

Yep. But your mind is a bigger place than you might think.

I mean, you've been storing up experiences and opinions and relationships all your life! Re-experiencing them in mixed-up and fanciful ways is an interesting way to understand who you are and what the world is about.

I don't remember the details, but I read in a science mag about new discoveries and theories on dreams. They found that the area of the brain that they always thought to start dreams (ie. the one involving imagination and visualisation) actually isn't the originator. It simply goes hand in hand with it. They found that the area that seems to be the originator of dreams is the bit responsible for motivation, will, desire, reward/punishment,etc.

In other words the bit that's responsible for thinking about things to determine if they were worthwhile or not to do. This is also done to predict if something is a good move or not.
Essentially the reinforcement learning (reward/punishment) area of your head.

Now that makes perfect sense to me. Previously scientists seriously thought that dreams were 100% random and had no relation to your state of mind at the time.
I said bulls*** and now the scientists seem to have found that to be so.

The things in your life that are on your mind in terms of value (fear of loss, hope of gain, possibilities for huge impact on your life) are the bits that are far more likely to be the theme of your dream. Makes perfect sense to me.

Anyway, as you can tell, so far I have no reason to believe dreams take place outside our heads.

I think dreams, lucid or not, take place in an entirely different astral plane. I think you disconnect from your physical body temporarily while you dream. When we separate we leave our physical body behind. Now which "head" do we talk about. The dream certainly is not in the physical mind. Also, it's not in any head in the other set of bodies. You actually go to another plane, one that can change as quick as thought, you perceive this dream through other senses from your non-physical bodies.

I also have an experiment to conduct regarding this. Last time I had a lucid dream, I jumped so high into outerspace, I started to see open bi-directional doorways. Next time, I'm going to enter/exit one and see where it takes me. I have been out of body before, and it's been awhile since I have, I want to do the same thing out of body, and see where those doors take me. Hopefully to the same place. We'll see. Well I will at least.

>> The dream certainly is not in the physical mind.

Then why does my EEG show it there?

If some spiritual Elvis has left the building and shuffled off to play with the space aliens in an astral plane far far away, why does the EEG show specific cortex (especially notable at C1 and C3) activity during dreaming? Why does the EEG show patterns approaching consciousness for LD and of a lower level for traditional dreaming?

>> Last time I had a lucid dream, I jumped so high into outerspace, I started to see open bi-directional doorways.

Last time I closed my eyes, I imagined I jumped so high into outerspace, I started to see open bi-directional doorways.

LD can't provide anything that the mind can't conceive of. And anything the mind can conceive of can be explained more simply by imagination.

Originally posted by kimpossible
Then why does my EEG show it there?

Because you still have the little silver cord that attaches your physical body to your other bodies.

Besides, what is to say that imagination takes place in the mind? It is just as easily possible that you imagine something, part of you quickly travels to some astral plane to re-enact it. Possibly the same for recalling memories. Recalling memories is not 100% accurate. Where is the line between what you've perceived and what you have not? With what senses did you perceive something?

What if instead of dreaming we are really just waking up to the true reality? The unknown is just that for a reason because mankind isn't ready to know that which it can not control. We seek knowledge of the dream world only because we know that world can't hurt us, but what if that world could hurt us would we still seek out the knowledge we do right now?

I believe this is why humans have fear because we need boundaries otherwise we might be the ones leaping from a building thinking we can fly or running into a wall thinking we can pass through it. This is the difference between dreams and truth. Do we really need to know where dreams are located in order to explore the very illusions which we so enjoy?

Originally posted by YourTheManNowDog
Those that claim it is out of the body are quick to mention dream meeting and clairvoyance etc...but does that mean you are going out of your body to do that? is that the only possible model?

Certainly not! Although, it does seem that something would have to go out of the body with something else going back in. But even that is not required, if we get really imaginative.

We won't know unless we actually do things to find out, though.

im continually haunted by the idea that there is no evidence for consciousness and yet it is the only real thing that exists. [/b]

You really need to read a book by a neurologist like Antonio Damasio. I've read both Descartes' Error and The Feeling of What Happens, and I must warn you that you are likely to become disillusioned and depressed at the startling array of neurological illnesses that impair someone's consciousness. The incredible variety of them - they seem to deal with a loss of someone's soul. Just sad.

Do you believe in the soul? That belief will be tested. Do you believe in God? If so, you are likely to think that he is a maniacal tyrant for his design of human biology after reading this, if you still have a smidgen of belief at all.

to say you truely know anything other than your consciousness is a lie, the only true thing you can know is your own mind and we have no evidence for it.[/b]

Not sure what you mean here. I think it was your point to make it sound nonsensical?

do you think that nonlocality would somehow factor into consciousness or dreams and \"where they are\" in space?[/b]

Maybe.

i maintain that if AP, LD dreams whatever are out of body then someone would have won lotto by now.[/b]

Maybe they have! Maybe, if they are smart enough to be able to do it, then they are smart enough to know that they should keep it under raps.

And even if no one has, that doesn't mean it's not possible. After all, state lotteries have only existed for a short time in human history. It could be that no one strong enough has stepped up to the plate yet, possibly because those who might be strong enough are interested in other things. Remember, a staggering percentage of people who believe in AP are pantywaists.

i also maintain that if dreams consciousness whatever was in the brain we would have found its mechanism already in this enlightened age. [/b]

Hey now, I mean no disrespect to you personally, just to what you said, but... That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. I recommend you start watching less TV immediately.

Its just frustrating walking through life being you and yet not knowing who that is or what your nature is.[/b]

That's what drives you to find out! It's even more frustrating to do nothing about it, isn't it?

We need to know where dreams occur simply because we are sentient beings who have a need to know everything we possibly can!

It should be possible to do some simple experiments with dreams, if you had a few dozen reliable dreamers...

Ask them what's in another room of a building, a room they've neer seen... see if they can go into that room as their dream-selves.

See if they can communicate with each other on whatever plane dreams take place on.

Take the data, do some statistical analysis, find out what's likely to be coincidence and what's not...

I think this has been done before. I don't think there have been any really smashingly positive results, though. Until there are, I'll be open to the possibility of a dream-plane, and work with the theory that there isn't.

Asking to locate a dream would be like asking to locate the universe, you have nothing to reference it to, it is its own universe, a different plane of existance. You can't talk of locations of universes unless you create an abstract concpetion of it that has nothing to do with the real thing. The only way these conceptions can be useful is when they demonstrate how things relate with and react with each other. To say that dreams are in the brain is just as useful as saying that there's a race of giant unicorns living on Pluto, until you use that statement to explain how the brain relates to dreams.

Bells, that made absolutely no sense.

I second that...

If it didn't make sense to you it just means that you're too stupid because it did make sense.
Most of guys are just talking random jibberish anyway, no wonder you don't get any of the logical arguments thrown at you.
So here's my theory: Dreams take place on a big ricecake, not on astral planes like some people think. This ricecake is the ACTUAL reality. Proof? Proof my ass...

Originally posted by Korittke
If it didn't make sense to you it just means that you're too stupid because it did make sense.

I hate arguments like that. Flat earth theories makes sense to a flat earth believer. That doesn't mean it makes sense to me, or that I'm a dumbass for it.
So keep your insults to yourself please

Maybe I am going insane.

What I'm basically saying is that a dream is a subjective experience, not a physical event. A process in the brain might cause a dream, but it isn't the dream itself, the dream itself is the experience, not the process that caused it. You can't locate a subjective experience.

If the rest of it made no sense to you, I can understand why. I have been reading a combination of too much awaken and too much of my religion textbook(I should post a few paragraphs here for you to compare to awaken's posts) and it has been affecting my thought process sometimes.

So here's my theory: Dreams take place on a big ricecake, not on astral planes like some people think. This ricecake is the ACTUAL reality. Proof? Proof my ass... [/b]

This is a great example of what I'm talking about, and I'm glad he could get something out of my previous post(if someone else had posted it I probably couldn't have). Any other attempt to locate a dream is just as ridiculous as his ricecake theory.

Originally posted by Belisarius
I have been reading a combination of too much awaken and too much of my religion textbook(I should post a few paragraphs here for you to compare to awaken's posts) and it has been affecting my thought process sometimes.

Oh goodness, I sympathize. I shriek inside at memories of my religion textbooks too.

Originally posted by Korittke
If it didn't make sense to you it just means that you're too stupid because it did make sense.
Most of guys are just talking random jibberish anyway, no wonder you don't get any of the logical arguments thrown at you.
So here's my theory: Dreams take place on a big ricecake, not on astral planes like some people think. This ricecake is the ACTUAL reality. Proof? Proof my ass...

I wouldn't call anyone a idiot. It's true that it may seem people are talking random jibberish, but remember people have different thoughts about everything. Some people are also at different level of thoughts because of different experiences. I believe the truth shouldn't be a fact, but a what do you believe? When I spoke i did speak my honest feelings. I actually did understand bell's feelings as well.

Let me try something a little different. Say you want to read a High FI tape, forgive my spelling on this I'm a child of the 80's so I might miss spell. Without a reader you couldn't view the information or understand how the information is stored. A modern example would be comparing a DVD reader to a VCR. We know the data is there, but without the device we can't understand the data. This data is thus lost even though it used to be read real easy. If we don't have the equipment to understand or find the data then how can we say with facts what is on that data holder?

I believe that when thinking about all this stuff, conciousness, dreams, lucidity whatever its important to recognise how much we truly know about ourselves and what we don't know. Its true like you said the only thing we can be certain of is our own conciousness, i think therefore i am.

Now what about everything else, you ask where are dreams? But i think first you must ask where is everything else, we're are we when we are supposedly awake and walking around? You think we're here physically existing in some certain reality, some universe? I don't see how you can say with certainty that we are. Thats the problem, for a dream to be somewhere, there has to be a somewhere for it to be. First you have define 'somewhere'.

The only thing we can be sure of with dreams is the same as what we can be sure of in our waking world, i think, therefore iam, it is just as likely as anything else, that everything else is merely a construct the we have made for ourselves.

The only way to exist of course, is to accept that things are as we percieve them to be to some extent, you can't go through life questioning everything, you'd go mad, but its fun to think about at times.

i forgot i made this thread.....anyways yea im aware about what goes on in the brain etc i have a few books at least, im not an expert but i feel that i know the gist.....im reading "why god wont go away" by andrew newberg right now....great book. ....Ex Nine there is no need to be patronizing , you are underestimating my insanity which has lead to obsession resulting in libraries of material downloaded or otherwise on just this subject.

Ex Nine im not sure whats so confusing about not being able to know anything other than your mind? seems pretty straight forward to me we simply have to employ absolute skepticism or egoism.......you can hold up a rock in front of you right now and you can never know anything about that rock the only thing you can know is your minds own experiance of it,,,you can never prove anything about the rock you are holding.....lesions on the brain would be no differant, brain disorders would also be no differant.....you cant even be sure a brain disorder exists. Newberg had monks come in and he recorded their neurological states that correlate to their altered states of consciousness...he did this by injecting them with some kind of fluid that showed up with the active portions of the brain highlighted........he even admits in the book this isnt really an explanation for anything,,,,it just says point blank this section of the brain seems to be doing this etc....it doesnt explain the mechanism of how its actually comming about. Even if it could be explained it wouldnt matter you couldnt actually know anything about it , it would be no differant than the rock you are trying to address the reality of....The fact that there are neurological correlates to a transcendent experiance doesnt mean anything about its validity we can also observe these correlates right now as you are typing on this "real computer"......because we can record on EEG that you are typing on a computer or do an MCAT or whatever on that doesnt mean a computer doesnt exist and it doesnt mean anything about the where-ness of where its experianced....

people say the mind is subjective compared to other things and i kind of laugh at that....i think the mind is the only absolute thing because its the only thing you can possibly know, the mind doesnt require any deduction to arive at its reality it simply exists...all other phenomena come into the mind as externals and thus we cannot be sure of them in and of themselves we can only be sure of the minds experiance of them.

I maintain that science is right now right where you would expect it to be given the solipsist worldview....explanations for exterior phenomena with no explanation for a self.

Now what about everything else, you ask where are dreams? But i think first you must ask where is everything else, we're are we when we are supposedly awake and walking around? You think we're here physically existing in some certain reality, some universe? I don't see how you can say with certainty that we are. Thats the problem, for a dream to be somewhere, there has to be a somewhere for it to be. First you have define 'somewhere'. [/b]

i completely agree with you only i dont even think other things exist, i cant prove that though and to be honest, other things might as well not exist because i cant know their nature anyways.

But I wonder, if you, as I read in another of your posts, can embrace your fears and love them... then why can't you embrace the thought that we simply don't know everyting; or anything *
I guess it's like some say: nothing is true (everything is permitted) [/b]

never thought about it like that. that would help i think iv lost so much sleep thinking about this to ill get on that.

Sorry. I just have difficulty speaking to people with multiple account disorder.

Originally posted by Ex Nine
Sorry. I just have difficulty speaking to people with multiple account disorder.

ROFL!
Anyway, as far as I know he's been banned for a variety of reasons. At least temporarily.
For those who don't know, supercrap=YourTheManNowDog

I really wasn't trying to make an epistemic point. That said, I have yet to find anyone who can adequately refute skepticism and it is certianly a legitimate point of view. I think the issue is just too difficult for people to accept and so arguements just go on forever without resolution(kind of like religious ones).

What I was getting at was more of a metaphysical point. I'm trying to say that experiences should be considered separately from their causes. When someone says,"I had an experience", of course people can ask them where they had it, but noone asks people where the experience is. Likewise people have dreams in bed, or people dream in bed, but dreams aren't in bed. If one defines dream as: a series of thoughts, images, or emotions occurring during sleep and especially during REM sleep —compare (Merriam-Webster) Then they are abstract and don't exist physically. A dream is the subjective experience of an individual, not the objective process that causes that experience. The cause could very well be in the brain, or maybe even out of it, but the cause is not the dream, and the question,"Where is a dream" is meaningless.

Originally posted by Belisarius
I really wasn't trying to make an epistemic point. That said, I have yet to find anyone who can adequately refute skepticism and it is certianly a legitimate point of view. *I think the issue is just too difficult for people to accept and so arguements just go on forever without resolution(kind of like religious ones).

What I was getting at was more of a metaphysical point. *I'm trying to say that experiences should be considered separately from their causes. *When someone says,\"I had an experience\", of course people can ask them where they had it, but noone asks people where the experience is. *Likewise people have dreams in bed, or people dream in bed, but dreams aren't in bed. * If one defines dream as: a series of thoughts, images, or emotions occurring during sleep and especially during REM sleep —compare (Merriam-Webster) *Then they are abstract and don't exist physically. *A dream is the subjective experience of an individual, not the objective process that causes that experience. *The cause could very well be in the brain, or maybe even out of it, but the cause is not the dream, and the question,\"Where is a dream\" is meaningless.

I disagree with what has been bolded. I think dreams do have a physical location. I believe emotions travel as waves. I'm not entirely sure of what Beli is saying, I do have something to add. Consider the two following situations that have happened:

1. I am dreaming and decide to jump really high. I jump right through the dream ceiling and into outer space. Then soon, outer space quickly turned into a new dream scene.

2. I have an outer body experience in which I float from my bed straight into outer space. I had to open a second pair of eyes just after my physical ones shut, so I could see.

Interestingly enough, outer space looked exactly the same. No it was not all black, but there were some perfectly white silhouettes. Once was a person laying down, like they were dead. Another time it was an older lady walking her cat, and once it there were doorways. You have to wonder if the two actually can be related by a common intermediate point, i.e. outer space. Do not simply rule it out because "it cannot be".

If I remember, next time I'll look back down to see if I can find Earth, or maybe other planets, or other evidence to link the two together.