Dealing with Evil Spirits

**Leo Volont** · 11-06-2005 08:16 AM

Regarding my not answering Exnine. Well, he has kept me busy on the PM screen. Here is what I have had to say, off and on, to him there... I'm sure the context can be guessed.

History is a poor Guide toward the Workings of a Functional Civilization. But as Toynbee pointed out, Civilization is a recent development. Man has been around for Millions of Years, but attempts at Civilization have been occurring for only about 7 thousand years. So far there have been just 20 attempts. That is not very many. That they have all failed, so far, should come as no surprise to us. But some things we do know. Secure Juridictions combined with a central and authoritative control on Distribution of Wealth, preventing a runnaway concentration of Wealth, translates to duration and stability. Every Civilization so far has fallen through complications traceable to Concentration of Wealth. When all subsistence wealth is pulled away from the population by a handful of ultra-rich, Civilization physically dies. When all infrastructural wealth and security are stripped from the Society in general to a few ultra-wealthy estates, then Civilization is inevitably over-run by invaders (the Rich always imagine that they can buy off Barbarian Invaders and be left alone, just as long as they surrender everyone and everything else).

But, given time, it seems likely that we will find a working formula for Civilization. your skepticism -- "nothing works" -- is simply too pessimistic. The UFO Alien People certainly have found a Civilization Structure of Institutions that appears to work. Now, on Earth, Civilization is only 7000 years old. What, after a million years you do not think we would get better at it? The US Government had captured a few living UFO Aliens and they were held in D.C. at the Navy Department Building. There was an exchange of prisoners -- the Aliens substituted Ambassader Personnel for their Flight Teams. They were asked to write about their Civilization and they did. It is called "The Yellow Book" because it was written in a yellow binder. It is the contents of the Yellow Book that require such secrecy regarding the Aliens, since the Civilization they write of is not compatible with our structures of barbarian free for all capitalism.

Good things do not happen by accident. Adam Smith's 'invisible hand' of self interest are blind in the long run. Every Civiliztion thus far has been murdered by that invisible hand of blind self interest. Civilization must be planned. We now have the technology. Everything could be planned. But there are still people who think they can do better for themselves alone then if everyone else is also included in the equation. Such are the Barbarians. The first part of the plan should be get rid of all the barbarians. It would make the numbers easier to deal with too.

Oh, yes, it has always been the claim of Barbarians, that Civilization is weak and for weaklings. So it is that they justify riding in with their rape and pillaging. Such is the Freedom that we must hear about in all our politics and media -- the Propaganda of the Barbarian, the justification for stealing from everybody to give to one's self.

Again. Barbarian.

Oh. And regarding Civilization being a Weakness, as Christ had said, "The Meak shall inheret the Earth". And I personally wouldn't mind throughing a shovelful of dirt in your face, when that day should come.

You can't be on both sides. You can't at once use the language of Barbarism and then suddenly assume for yourself the mantle of Civilization. Again and again you have advocated the worse pillaging and chaotic disorder, for the sake of your precious freedom, but then you find being called a Barbarian, which is what you are, objectionable and so you would wish to be called Civilized. Well, you're not. You are part of the irrationality and disorganization that has lead 21 prior Cultural Organizations into chaos and collapse. You insist that being a part of a greater whole is a weakness, but that principle alone is what establishes the foundation for Civilization. Rejecting it, how can you then claim that you 'never said' that Civilization is weakness. Apparently you don't even know the consequences of your own thinking. Perhaps you need to mentally mature a bit before you can engage in a conversation. Or perhaps become a Republican and dispense with thinking altogether.

There is no Civilization today. Barbarism runs amok. Wars, recessions, depressions, unemployment, sanctions, invasions and a situation where the reasonable projections into even the near future show a disasterous inability to sustain Society in its present Institutional Configuration. If it is not Sustainable then it does not deserve the name Civilization.

What had been Civilization was Catholic Civilization. What we have now is not Civilization but the Swarm of Barbarians still picking over the Moral Remains that had been left by a kind of Civilized Inertia. Yes, Barbarians still enjoy the Inertia of left behind by a former Civilization, but with every Generation, where Barbarians eradicate ever more of the old "Weaknessses" of Civilization, the ability to Sustain an Economy and a Security become less and less.

I am not being pessimistic. To me Civilization, Catholic Civilization had already collapsed. As soon as this Barbarian Chaos gets swept away, then perhaps some Order can emerge.

There is something of a paradox in History that I probably need to point out to you. You see, Barbarism so infects Civilization, as Individuals attempt to instill Barbarian Behaviors into their Societies, to advance their campaigns for Individual Gain -- you would call it FREEDOM, that eventually their is no coherency or coordination possible. But the External Non-Civilized Societies -- the Barbarians -- somehow see the advantage of Organization and Coordination. We find time and again in History that Barbarians, inherently lawless as they are, are able to put together Ad Hoc Organizations which are temporarily stronger than the Collapsing Civilizations they go up against.

So, how much Organization would it take in some Sub-Cultural Organization before we could imagine that it would be able to re-impose Order after a catastropic Economic Collapse. Look at the Collapse of the Roman Empire. It re-emerged around the skeletal framework of the Catholic Church. Persian Civilization, wiped out by the Mongols and the Turks was able to re-establish itself, partially, under the rubric of Islam. Going back to an earlier Persia, after the Invasions of the Iron Age Aryans, Persian Civilization was able to re-store itself through Zoroastrianism.

In short, Religions have always benefited from the collapse of Civilizations that had broken down through decadence and the re-emergence of selfish nihilistic and amoral anti-principles, such as the ones you advocate. Religions are Morally and Ethically well suited for institutionalizing economic patterns and conditions which aim at a fairness in distribution of wealth and oppose the unregulated concentration of wealth into the hands of the unembarrassingly ruthless and predatory business classes and rural aristocracies. Unfortunately, in proportion as these Religions relax their vigilance against Selfishness, allowing a runaway acquisition of Private Property, the sooner their days are numbered. The Rot that corrupts Civilization is Concentration of Wealth. The more Private Wealth that becomes accumulated, the more such wealth attracts emulation, and the more pronounced becomes the Propaganda that advocates it as a Virtue. You see, it is in the Self Interest of the Predators to make the Regulation of Property unpopular politically. It is in their Self Interest to make Religion and Government, the Protectors of Civilization, seem as though they are the Bad Guys. It is what the Zoroastrians termed the War of Darkness against the Light. The Forces of Darkness push upon the Public what could be called the appreciation of a Moral Inversion. This is how you can advocate Selfishness as a virtue, and extoll rape and pillage only because that is what one has to do to enjoy one's FREEDOM.

**kimpossible** · 11-06-2005 08:20 AM

Wow. I've never seen THAT much bullshit on a cattle ranch!

**Ex Nine** · 11-06-2005 08:21 AM

I'll give you the highlights from our pm's, Kim:

Leo called me a "barbarian."

I called him a "weakling."

Leo said that he would enjoy shoveling dirt in my face, the first time meeting me in person, and that the meek shall inherit the Earth.

I told him to go on and inherit his dirt.

We're getting along just fine.

**kimpossible** · 11-06-2005 08:24 AM

Originally posted by Ex Nine
Leo said that he would enjoy shoveling dirt in my face, the first time meeting me in person, and that the meek shall inherit the Earth.

Gosh - that sounds kinda un-meek. Guess he should be preparing for HIS dirt-bath, eh?

**Ex Nine** · 11-06-2005 08:59 AM

I'm still interested in helping people find a way to overcome these troubles. I have had these experiences myself and they can be truly terrifying - they spoil and obstruct LDs, which can be truly beautiful. LDs are simply everyone's birthright.

Instead of pursuing more theory or philosophy, I'd like to now offer an actual experience of defeating a demonic dream character. It took one and only one time. I am quite proud of it, and indeed I had a most unique serenity after waking from it. In sharing it I hope to show those of you who are troubled insight into handling your demons. I recounted it in another forum so I apologize if some of you have already seen it.

-------------

While falling asleep, I found myself in a dream, at first very weary and lethargic. I stumbled, intending to ask important questions about dreaming. More lucid, I found myself standing next to a simple wooden chair, a table, and across the table sat a popular New Age author (actually, aren't they all?). He smiled his a-course-in-miracles-love-binds-the-universe-buy-my-book-to-be-happy smile, saying, "how can I help you?" Thinking this was my dream, and that he could be of some use to me, reflexively, I was about to sit down and ask a question.

Then I said, "No," getting up and turning away. I despised this author. This was why I was dreaming in first place. I wouldn't be here if I thought I could find answers in a book. "I'll ask the dream."

After a pause, I looked slightly upward, and asked the dream, "Why do I dream one dream and not another?" It was an abstract question and my mind gravitated to specify it. I naturally wondered why my dreams could be so difficult at times, even my lucid dreams, while at other times they have been so brilliant. I was prepared for anything.

The dream cleared with that lucid glow, while the walls around me changed. I was in a castle, perhaps, medieval wood furnishings and illumination by torch light. In front of me was an inviting circular staircase. As I walked upwards, I noticed a change in air, as if the castle was on a large mountain and I was ascending up through the clouds. It was daytime and light shone through a few windows, a green rolling horizon barely visible.

An older-looking man sat near a fireplace in a humble sort of chair, but plush with hay. I walked over to him and started to sit, waiting for him to say something. He would say something incisive, I hoped. Nothing. There was perhaps a little rumble; a low vibration moving the dream, as if from shaking the foundations of the castle, underground... What kind of answer is this, I thought.

"Are you listening?" he said.

Noticing I was momentarily distracted, I felt I missed a lesson.

"No. I am sorry. But I'm listening now."

Then the rumbling grew louder, gradually stronger, and closer, it focused behind me. I turned around and stepped back quickly. A short young woman in a black robe, with goth-ish hair and features, displaying a sinister animalistic being, approached the old man.

I waited to see what he would do. If he was any at all wise, he would defeat her in some clever way, and then we would get on with the lesson. She hissed scathingly, and he looked surprisingly frightened. Quickly, she began to eat him, horrifically! He didn't even have time to scream, her ingestion was so efficient. Then she turned towards me.

Although never afraid for my well-being, knowing it was a dream, I was still shocked. In truth I was afraid of something far worse - that of not learning something, or not being able to learn something, for this was really a genuine attempt for wisdom. And if I did not leave with something, I would be very sad.

Perhaps if I did not provoke her she would not attack. I waited.

Then she lunged at me. I flew back and up, and hurled a force wave upon her. She fell back to the floor. As she was getting up for another lunge, growling, I noticed her intense hunger. She was weak. Here she was, after devouring a man almost twice her size, and she was still starving. She even looked thinner than before, more impoverished and in more pain, like a ragged child of a homeless family.

Evil had such a sight of weakness.

Showing her blood curdling fangs, she lunged at me again with more force. But I raise my knee and reflected it back on her. I struck her devastatingly, my shin in her face, spinning her like a rag doll as she fell to the floor again, gasping.

Before she could get up again, I flew down and planted my feet on the floor. I grabbed her by the rims of her clothing, and flung her out far out the window, firmly and decisively. She arced upwards and then started descending quickly through the clouds. I flew after her, caught her, and sped her fiercely towards the ground faster than gravity alone would allow. I stopped, and like a bullet, she smashed through the rough terrain, pulverizing the soil, her body sunken deep into the Earth.

I landed on terra firma immediately thereafter, and awoke in my bed, completely serene. Every evil and every danger had such incredible weakness.

**Leo Volont** · 11-06-2005 10:48 AM

Originally posted by kimpossible
Wow. I've never seen THAT much bullshit on a cattle ranch!

I doubt you could follow the historical references or even make out the larger words, but I enjoyed your home-sy way of dismissing what you could not hope to understand.

**Leo Volont** · 11-06-2005 10:57 AM

Originally posted by kimpossible

Gosh - that sounds kinda un-meek. Guess he should be preparing for HIS dirt-bath, eh?

Ex-Nine has been advocating the Independent Freedoms of Barbarian Brutality. He claime that Civilized People, by banding together for Collective Strength, are acting out of Weakness. Yet History shows that Collective Organization has proven to be stronger than instances of Individual Prowess.

So, Members of a Collective Society are indeed MEEK when they offer themselves up to work in Concerted Unity. Ego is suppressed and orders need be obeyed. This is an active Humility which consists in an accepted MEEKNESS. And yet, in action, when a Collective is deployed against an Immoral Barbarism, the RESULTS do not look very MEEK.

To say that the MEEK shall inheret the Earth can mean only one thing. Barbarians will have to move somewhere else... or get dirt shovelled into their faces while they are being disposed of. Society should not have to put up with those people who live and breath an open declaration of War against all Morality, all Fairness, and Everything that is Holy.

**Leo Volont** · 11-06-2005 11:12 AM

Originally posted by Ex Nine
... She hissed scathingly, and he looked surprisingly frightened. Quickly, she began to eat him, horrifically! He didn't even have time to scream, her ingestion was so efficient. Then she turned towards me.

....I noticed her intense hunger. She was weak. Here she was, after devouring a man almost twice her size, and she was still starving. ...

Evil had such a sight of weakness....

...Every evil and every danger had such incredible weakness.

The Old Man was the Wisdom of Goodness. He had built a Castle. The Dark Woman came amidst the Rumblings of an Unholy instability in the Earth itself, an Evil that comes from Nature itself. We could call it a basic Selfishness. After all that it devours, it is left even hungrier.

Why does it become weaker? The World is made Strong by Civilized Institutions. The more of these Moral Institutions that fall victim to this Darkness, the weaker everything becomes. The Weakness of the Dark Woman was meant to show the the World had been Weakened by the Loss of the Wise Man.

It is not that Evil is Weak. Afterall, Evil had destroyed Good. The Good Man was devoured, no? What was Weak was the World left without Goodness.

Then what happened. You suppose you destroyed her. But she was not after you. She had the Old Man. What you did was return her back to the Earth from which she sprung in the first place.

**Ex Nine** · 11-06-2005 06:34 PM

Originally posted by Leo Volont+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Leo Volont)</div>

Ex-Nine has been advocating the Independent Freedoms of Barbarian Brutality. He claime that Civilized People, by banding together for Collective Strength, are acting out of Weakness.[/b]

Leo, I am quite confident now you are not listening. Collective organization as a component of self-interest, which is good and holy, was stated in my very first paragraph on philosophy.

Originally posted by I@
Self-interest is part of everything that is holy! Self-interest facilitates self-responsibility. WIth mature self-interest you become interested in others. How are we to be our self if we are not interested in it? There is nothing wrong with it at all. It should be encouraged and nurtured everywhere.

I admit that I added a bit a few minutes later just to clarify. I hadn't included it earlier because I thought it was already understood.

<!--QuoteBegin-I then
Self-interest is part of everything that is holy! Self-interest facilitates self-responsibility. WIth mature self-interest you become interested in others because you need cooperation to survive. How are we to be our self if we are not interested in it? There is nothing wrong with it at all. It should be encouraged and nurtured everywhere.

I didn't think you would assume that I was so stupid not to recognize the power of teamwork and groups. I took it for granted that it was an easy thing to understand. And that successful groups can still be made of self-interested people. And that probably the most successful groups are constructed this way.

Perhaps if you were interested in yourself, then you would be a stakeholder in the conversation and listen. And then as dynamic listening individuals we might act as a team.

Yet History shows that Collective Organization has proven to be stronger than instances of Individual Prowess.[/b]

Obviously.

Honestly if you thought I was that ignorant, I don't know why you would waste your time in a discussion with me.

Perhaps that was never your intention, and you just wanted to see yourself post? You have already said that there is no more Civilization, and that society is headed for collapse. People once fulfilled you, but they no longer do, this troubles you, and you blame everything but yourself. And yet you cling to the notion that you are weak for an excuse! Putting all this together, you are fulfilling almost everything I said about self-hatred and exclusive self-interest.

I'm going to show you two parts where you just plain didn't listen, Leo, in your responses to my experience. Not where you didn't get something... just plainly where you didn't listen.

Then what happened. You suppose you destroyed her. But she was not after you.[/b]

I didn't provoke her, and yet she lunged for me.

She had the Old Man.[/b]

And it clearly didn't satisfy her. In fact, it did the opposite.

And now something you should have gotten, but I underestimated your intention to do so.

What you did was return her back to the Earth from which she sprung in the first place.[/b]

And that's exactly where she'll stay.

All dead things go back to the Earth to be transmuted, after all. "And to dust you shall return," I think is what you guys call it. I thought the metaphor was pretty powerful, and yet you insist on cowering like a weakling. Think about what you said.

So the MEEK inherit the spawning grounds for demons, do they?

Interesting!

And if you don't acknowledge that you're not listening, I won't see any reason to speak with you further. I simply don't speak when no one is listening, and I have listened enough to notice that you are now speaking selfishly. I have treated your posts with more civility than you have treated mine.

-------------

The point is, it worked great for me. If you want to cling to the notion that evil is "powerful," it will keep coming back, and I doubt you will finish it for yourself, if you are currently battling them.

Archetypes and God may work in the short term, but they may only make more problems for you. You don't have to give up believing God, really, just recognize that God gives his gifts freely and wants you to use them so you can grow. What kind of father would keep freedom from his children, especially when they are older? A fearful and selfishly ignorant one. And anyone who is omnipotent and omnibenevolent would be neither.

**Cyclic13** · 11-06-2005 07:35 PM

again well said ex nine :bravo:

**Ex Nine** · 11-06-2005 07:38 PM

Thanks, SolSkye!

**Nirvana Starseed** · 11-06-2005 07:51 PM

It never ceases to amaze me the elusiveness of the ego and its presence in such discussions as these, It really infects the content and clouds anything worthwhile that is originally discussed. And it sort of degenerates into a pointless argument.

I try and steer clear of this effect.

but there have been some things shared and discussed that are useful here.
There is certainly a protective element, I think it has to do with association and belief in the good forces, which helps to dispell the dark through the association with its power. That symbol may come from a cross or personal experience in such things, belief in the power of the church to dispell. Or any other faith that is effective against fighting a dark presence.Or that provides a connection to the light.

Ultimately when it comes down to it. The dark entitys are incredibly weak. Because they follow illusion, One of the light, truth and way need only blow them away with a small breath, and they disapear.

**kimpossible** · 11-06-2005 07:57 PM

Pot. Kettle. Black. 'Nuff Said.

**Howie** · 11-06-2005 07:58 PM

kimpossible
Wether you think leo's ideas are radical or not does not mean that you should, as I have seen in many of your post, turn to sarcasm.

**Nirvana Starseed** · 11-06-2005 08:05 PM

Howetzer I think kimpossible should be banned for a while. She has constantly infected discussions with senseless banter of this kind. If not on purpose because she is incapable of joining the discussion yet insists on being involved.

**kimpossible** · 11-06-2005 08:07 PM

Where did the first insult come from? Please respond to that and only that. [Hint: Page 2, Leo insulting me.]

I said once before, if attacked I'll defend myself.

Case in point:

Nirvana: "Pot, Kettle, black" is neither senseless nor banter. If you are unable to grasp the reference, maybe you should look it up?

Please come back when you have an original thought... I have yet to see one from you. I get more originality from a magic eight ball.

**Cyclic13** · 11-06-2005 08:17 PM

There are ALL different types of people here that much we all can agree on and hopefully enjoy; kim uses a cynical tone to some of her responses but that doesnt mean she is all out belittling someone. She is merely expressing herself in a, sometimes curt, but overall straightforward, to the point manner. Personally, I understand right away where she disagrees with the person through that way of responding and find it humorous, but thats me. I dont think what can be said should be restricted as long as profanity and down right name calling aren't used.

**Nirvana Starseed** · 11-06-2005 08:22 PM

I suppose if she really is incapable of a better response, she is entitled to it.

**Cyclic13** · 11-06-2005 08:27 PM

In my opinion, if everyone on the forum spoke with a serious disposition all the time it wouldnt provide for very entertaining debates. Part of getting your point across is the way in which you present it. The saying 'Presentation is everything' is generally right. Now, I dont see why one cant use their wittiness in a debate in order to show where they disagree. If the person shows arrogance towards another in the form of condescension where its not necessary or the person is simply asking a question then I would say its uncalled for. BUT if in the persons initial tone of the post is of arrogance, whether it be question or statement, then of course they should expect nothing but the same in return.

**Nirvana Starseed** · 11-06-2005 09:03 PM

If we talk about how one is to respond, a mod may even split this thread, But Generally humour is ofcourse okay. And we all have our own humour and wit.

I just do not like to see egos frolicking about making a mess, in an otherwise useful discussion.

I say be mature, and sober about it, with humility, or atleast try to be. And respect others. But that doesn't mean you are boring or taking away something by being this. I think The most mature people are the less boring people. As they understand many things.

**Cyclic13** · 11-06-2005 09:15 PM

Ok then, problem solved (although I feel compelled to use 'quelled for the time being')

**Howie** · 11-06-2005 09:33 PM

I think debating is a great thing! But people need to learn how.
There has been talk of splitting a couple of forums for the simple reason people cannot seem to act civil towards one another.
Why.... because people can't be better than an insult. They can't turn the other cheek and keep on topic. If you could ignore most of these type of comments you would be the better person for it.
But instead Dream Views has forums spewing with innuendoes, belittling overtones, and intimidation.

**Ex Nine** · 11-07-2005 05:26 AM

So, uh, anyone trash some good demons lately?

**Leo Volont** · 11-07-2005 08:43 AM

Originally posted by kimpossible
Where did the first insult come from? Please respond to that and only that. [Hint: Page 2, Leo insulting me.]

I said once before, if attacked I'll defend myself.

Case in point:

Nirvana: \"Pot, Kettle, black\" is neither senseless nor banter. If you are unable to grasp the reference, maybe you should look it up?

Please come back when you have an original thought... I have yet to see one from you. I get more originality from a magic eight ball.

Excuse me, but it started when you declared that I was no longer worthy of any human respect. Go back and look. It was you who declared war.

**Leo Volont** · 11-07-2005 08:53 AM

Dear Ex-nine,

You seemed to have missed the point of your own dream.

The Old Man was any trace of goodness that was born into you. Your chance to Fight the Darkness of Evil was before it destroyed all that was good in you. But you let your chance slip. After that, what you did to the Figure of Darkness may well have been nothing more than a rough love-making... the damage was already done.

As to her weakness. This reflects your own moral weakness after all the good in you has been lost.

I am puzzled that you think that Death is final in going back to the Earth. Do you ever bother to think? Does not the Earth regenerate Everything? We are reminded of the Mythologies which advised Hercules to lift his Enemies off the ground to prevent them from drawing strength from the Earth. We are reminded of Christ's talking of expelled Demons, that they come back stronger. But I suppose you need not worry. Their battle against you has already been won. They have you defending Barbarism. What more could they ask of you.

Thread: Dealing with Evil Spirits

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