Thread: Can someone legit tell me if PSI is possible or not?

Originally posted by Myriad902


2) Remote Viewing - Ok, I shouldn't even have to explain this, how the hell do you just float out of your body and/or mind and walk around discovering places and information that you have never experienced before? Oh wait, nevermind, it's impossible. Oh yes, I have seen the news articles, what a bunch of propaganda BS. All you morons do is walk around spouting crap, and I know atleast half the people that \"share their PSI abilities\" are just plain lying. However, physicists and engineers have been tinkering with nature for many millenia, TENS OF THOUSANDS have worked and worked, day and night, months and years founding out the secrets of the universe and applying them to make technology. What have you guys done??? Jumped on the band wagon??? ... Pathetic.

From: \"A Lawyer Presents a Case for the Afterlife:\"

17. Remote Viewing

'The secret is out: remote viewing exists, it works, it has been tested, proven and used in intelligence for over two decades. The recent (US) government admissions concerning the use of psychic warfare are crucial, irrefutable testimony that what I have said here is the truth...'

(U.S.) Major David Morehouse

'She went into a trance. And while she was in the trance, she gave us some latitude and longitude figures. We focused our satellite cameras on that point, and the lost plane was there.'

Former President Jimmy Carter,
recalling a 1978 remote-viewing operation (Schnabel 1997: cover).

The psychic researcher Ingo Swan coined the term 'remote viewing' as a neutral scientific term to describe a process by which a viewer perceives information about a distant location using something other than the known five senses. Initially it referred only to situations in which a very disciplined research protocol was used by the US Military but gradually the term has come into general use as the ability to perceive hidden or remote information by psychic means.

Remote viewing different to OBEs

Puthoff and Targ wrote in their classic paper 'A Perceptual Channel for Information over Kilometer Distances' (1976) that they were choosing the term 'remote viewing' as a neutral term free from prior associations and bias as to mechanisms contained in terms such as autoscopy (medical literature) exteriorisation or dissociation (psychological literature) clairvoyance or out of body experience (parpsychology) or astral projection (occult literature). Other investigators prefer the neutral term ‘anomalous cognition’.

There is however still some overlap in general usage of the terms Remote Viewing and Out Of Body Experiences. Researchers who intentionally practice both claim that there is a difference between an out of body experience in which the viewer perceives only as if physically present and remote viewing where the viewer is able to clairvoyantly tune into all sorts of information about the target which would not be physically observable.

As Joseph McMoneagle puts it in his book Remote Viewing Secrets (2000) the remote viewer sits in a room and describes perceptions of a target in another location. While s/he may accurately describe that other location there is never any doubt that s/he is in the room where his or her body is located. On the other hand, in the Out of Body Experience (OBE) people actually perceive that they have travelled to that location and are present there in all ways except the presence of their physical bodies (McMoneagle 2000:176-177).

Military research into remote viewing

For more than 20 years, the United States military had a budget of seventy million dollars a year for the purpose of psychic research with special emphasis on 'remote viewing'.

Stunning as it may sound to those who are unfamiliar with psychic phenomena, these and greater things have been done and are being done to-day in the United States, Russia, China. France has kept quiet about it but they do have the population and the advanced psychic knowledge to participate in remote viewing.

In his most interesting book, Remote Viewers — The Secret History of America's Psychic Spies, (1997) Jim Schnabel cites a number of highly credible sources, including an American President, about the reality of Remote Viewing applied for military objectives. Here are some of them making some stunning statements which by now have found their place in the history of psychic phenomena:

'I never liked to get into debates with the skeptics, because if you didn't believe that remote viewing was real, you hadn't done your homework.'

Major General Edmund R Thompson, U.S. Army Assistant Chief of Staff for Intelligence, 1977-81, Deputy Director for Management and Operations, DIA, 1982-84 (Schnabel 1997: cover).

'You can't be involved in this for any length of time and not be convinced there's something here.'

Norm J., former senior CIA official who tasked remote viewers (Schnabel 1997: cover).

'There were times when they wanted to push buttons and drop bombs on the basis of our information.'

Dr Hal Puthoff, a former manager of the remote-viewing program (Schnabel 1997: cover).

'She went into a trance. And while she was in the trance, she gave us some latitude and longitude figures. We focused our satellite cameras on that point, and the lost plane was there.'

Former President Jimmy Carter, recalling a 1978 remote-viewing operation (Schnabel 1997: cover).

Stanford Research Institute in the United States was the venue where many of the original experiments were conducted. Physicist Hal Puthoff was the chief of the Remote Viewing Program there. Some of the personnel involved in this military astral projection, remote viewing program (according to Schnabel 1997) included:

• Admiral Stanfield Turner, Director of the CIA 1977-91

• Major General Ed Thompson, Assistant Chief of Staff for Army Intelligence. He had special knowledge that the Russians had advanced techniques in psychic phenomena which were used for military espionage in remote viewing and long distance telepathic hypnosis

• Sergeant Mel Riley (1978-90)

• Sergeant Lyn Buchanan, Major Ed Dames and Colonel John Alexander from U.S. Army Intelligence & Security Command

• Gifted remote viewer Ingo Swann, who was Puthoff's first test OBE subject

• CIA scientist Richard Kennet who worked with Pat Price and Hal Puthoff

• Keith Harary, gifted remote viewer

• John McMahon, chief of the CIA's Office of Technical Service during 1974-76 and later the CIA's Deputy Director - he was a major supporter of remote viewing and became an investigator himself - was convinced when he himself experienced stunning psychic phenomenon

• Patrick Price highly gifted psychic, independent to but highly consistent with the remote viewing of Ingo Swann. Price through remote viewing accurately described 'details of a secret Pentagon facility in the hills of West Virginia village of Sugar Grove ...'. Among its secret functions were the interception of intercontinental telephone communications, and the control of U.S. spy satellites. Price was also deadly accurate in his remote viewing in penetrating Russian installation at Mount Narodnaya in the remote northern Ural Mountains. The CIA confirmed the accuracy of Price's remote viewing. .i). CIA;

The most comprehensive Internet site which contains links to a number of academic and scholarly journal articles and papers by leaders in the field is by Joseph McMoneagle.

Psychic Warrior

Major David A Morehouse, a highly decorated U.S. army officer, was from 1987 to 1991 assigned to several highly classified special access programs in the US Army's Intelligence Security Command and Defence Intelligence Agency. In his book Psychic Warrior — The True Story of the CIA's Paranormal Espionage Program (1996) he quotes key figures in the program as follows:

The secret is out: remote viewing exists, it works, it has been tested, proven and used in intelligence for over two decades. The recent government admissions concerning the use of psychic warfare are crucial, irrefutable testimony that what I have said here is the truth. The government of the most powerful nation on the face of the earth has admitted that it knows humans can transcend time and space to view distant persons, places, things and events, and that information thus gathered can be brought back. I hope you comprehend the significance of this information (Morehouse 1996).

Morehouse also claims that he and other remote viewers regularly had contact with beings from the afterlife See Psychic Warrior and interview.

In his paper CIA-Initiated Remote Viewing At Stanford Research Institute Dr Hal Puthoff who was program research manager sets forth details of the integrated results of the program which he claims provide unequivocal evidence of a human capacity to access events remote in both space and time.

I am amazed how this necessarily secret project was allowed to go on in the United States military for so long without strong opposition from the materialists, institutionalized religion and the fundamentalists. Clearly, the military and spy agencies decided that the objectively proven remote viewing transcended any objections based on subjective religious beliefs of the fundamentalists or the institutionalized churches.

According to a number of sources the CIA, at the request of Congress, took over the remote viewing program and stopped its funding in 1995. The official reason given for this was an unfavorable review by two scientists. However according to Joseph McMoneagle's book Mind Trek (1997) these scientists were not shown 99% of the documented results of remote viewing which were and are still classified, were forbidden to speak with any of the remote viewers or project managers and were not given any means to evaluate the operational effectiveness of the information they were shown (1997:218-229).

Remote viewing goes commercial

Several of the remote viewers formerly involved in the military program are now employing their skills for private enterprise and can be contacted at the Cognitive Sciences Laboratory (CSL) California.

Ed Dames, a former military remote viewer and now president of his own commercial remote viewing company which gets contracts from the intelligence services boasts that his clients do not have to pay a cent if the results are not accurate. He states that his company successfully undertook remote viewing operations for intelligence agencies during the Gulf War. Ed Dames states, among other things, \"When some army general asks, where are the enemies coming from, I have to give deadly accurate information.\" (Dames 2000)

Since remote viewing has come out into the open it appears to be proving its effectiveness in the marketplace – at the time of writing (2001) the Internet search engine Google returned are over 610,000 entries for remote viewing.

A military threat?

Realistically, nobody really knows who is more advanced in remote viewing than whom. For example, according to Tim Rifat (1999) The Russian and Chinese military and intelligence agencies are also known to be heavily involved.

Ingo Swann, for many years at the forefront of remote viewing research claims that the Russians have on-sold their research knowledge to other countries:

Several quite respectable sources have informed me that two major nations are making advances in psychoenergetics applications, one of which is remote viewing. It is also being alleged that a third smaller nation, with well known and advertised hatred of the American Way of Life, is also making progress. I believe those sources, because I know that liberated Russia sold for big bucks the Soviet psychic secrets three times over in order to acquire needed foreign exchange monies. See Statement by Ingo Swann on Remote Viewing 1 December 1995.

That the Soviets were advanced in these areas was set out in Martin Ebon’s Psychic Warfare: Threat or Illusion? (1983). Swann claims that \"Between 1969 and 1971 American intelligence sources began discovering and confirming that the Soviet Union was deeply engaged in so-called psychic research. By 1970, it was discovered that the Soviets were spending approximately 60 million rubles per year on it, and over 300 million by 1975.\" (Swann 1995) It was to counter this program, he argues, that the American Remote Viewing Program was set up.

China's Psychic Powers - Remote viewers and superpsychics

Anyone who knows anything about psychic matters would be more than impressed by what the Chinese have achieved. But the Chinese government has allowed only limited information to go out to the world about the true power of China's superpsychics.

I restate, that no one really knows how advanced the leading countries are in remote viewing. It would be only logical to make all advanced remote viewing highly classified material.

However the limited information available is more than sufficient to realize that China is possibly more advanced psychically than the United States or Russia or any other country in national security matters and that fact may be cause for alarm. One has to remember that the government of China finances psychic phenomena ¾ and treats their gifted psychics as 'national treasures'. It also sponsors an active program to recruit gifted psychics. This starts from programs in primary schools which select and train those who show psychic gifts. Because of China's huge population, it is reasonable to expect higher numbers of psychics than anywhere else in the world.

The Chinese are claiming that they have superpsychics like Zhang Baosheng who reportedly can accelerate the molecular structure of their body to penetrate at will solid objects - such as brick walls. They also claim they have highly gifted remote viewers. This means that the Chinese are certain to have highly gifted psychics who can read documents locked away in a solid safe (Dong and Raffill 1997). See book review China’s Super Psychics.

Paul Dong and Thomas E Raffill in their book, China's Super Psychics, state

China's vast population, encouraged by a government that assiduously promotes psychic research, has developed an unusually high percentage of practitioners with psychic abilities. It is estimated that China now has five thousand psychic children, three to five-hundred psychic adults, and more than thirty super psychics.

For those closed-minded skeptics who want to keep psychic phenomena out of the security agenda the inevitable result is to leave the West behind in security matters - which could result in devastating circumstances. Is the West willing to take the chance of such an omission?

With absolute certainty, where there is advanced psychic phenomena, you will find evidence for the afterlife - the two are inevitably connected.[/b]

So these things never happened? Any sources to share?

A few more posted by a skeptic with no reason for bias.

http://www.skepticreport.com/tools/rvlist.htm

From the \"Libray of Halexandria\"

Okay, fine. For the enduring skeptics (who, incidentally, seldom endear themselves to others), check out the results from Princeton, Stanford, and a host of other allegedly credible sources. See also The Journal of the Society for Scientific Exploration (or SSE), or the Institute of Noetic Sciences (founded by astronaut Edgar D. Mitchell).

For example, IONS [1] notes that studies on the subject demonstrate that \"telepathy is not 'mind reading' because thoughts are very rarely perceived; that the effects are subtle, and only rarely reach conscious awareness; and that some commonly reported experiences may look and feel like psychic phenomena, but are best accounted for by more mundane explanations like tricks of percepation and memory. Theorectical explanations for telepathy have lagged behind the growing body of experimental evidence. While adequate theories are likely to remain elusive for some time, developments in physics have provided some intriguing clues. In particular, the experience of telepathy is reminiscent of quantum entanglement (QE). QE refers to correlations that can arise between isolated physical systems under special conditions -- correlations that defy the predictions of classical physics.\"

While it is true that \"quantum entanglement as presently understood is an exceedingly fragile state that requires conditions quite unlike the noisey environment of the human brain,\" it has also become apparent that \"generalization of Bell's Inequalities -- a mathematical analysis of quantum mechanics that led to the concept of QE -- results in forms of QE that are highly resistant to noise; that concepts like 'quantum repeaters' and 'entanglement purification' are being vigorously pursued as practical means of extending the times of entangled systems; and that clouds of trillions of atoms can be entangled at room temperature.\" [1] The latter allows for QE to be sustained in living tissue, while more practically, \"research provides evidence that roughly 1 in 15 pairs of unselected people show above-chance, positive EEG correlations.\"

For the hard core skeptics -- most of whom do not use scientific rationale or logic -- it should be obvious that they cannot be convinced by mere evidence or fact and thus can safely be ignored. Basically, who really cares about what they allegedly think?

However, for that rare skeptic who does use science in a valid manner to dispute claims of ESP and the like, -- i.e. something considerably more advanced than shouting “hogwash!” or its equivalent -- one needs to be inclined to seriously consider their argument(s). Unfortunately for even these rational skeptics, the argument that something does not exist is by far the most difficult one in science, and can never be conclusive. What is perceived as Magic, for example, is almost always science that has not yet been fully understood by the perceiver. But it’s very, very real. Sorry about that.

One example of a typical skeptic’s method is provided by a recent report on dowsing (the ability of someone to find underground sources of water with the use of so-called dowsing rods). The report, presented at a meeting of the SSE (see above), discussed the results of a group of twenty, self-proclaimed “dowsers”, who were examined in a controlled, scientific test as to their ability to effectively locate pipes containing water in a field of numerous buried pipes (most of which did not contain water).

On average, the results did not show any statistically significant deviation from pure chance or dumb luck! Eighteen of the dowsers did not, in fact, demonstrate any real talent at all. However. Two of the dowsers had extraordinary results, accomplishing their task in a very statistically significant manner. In other words, based on the two “real” dowsers, dowsing made a credible showing.

It is not generally wise to select one’s data in order to arrive at a scientific conclusion. But in this case, the results of the 18 can be ignored on the basis that they were not, in reality, true dowsers. Meanwhile the results of the 2 were sufficient exceptions to the proposed hypothesis that dowsing is not real, that it must be assumed that dowsing is, by this report, real. Even so, the conclusion of the researcher was dowsing was not shown to be real in the experiment. In effect, the researcher ignored the data of the 2 true dowsers.

This technique is often used to discount everything from Astrology to ESP, but is simply scientifically insupportable. This is where the “hogwash!” truly begins. [Dowsing, incidentally, probably derived its name from the Chinese spiritual discipline, The Tao (from the Tao de Ching), the latter being pronounced “dow day ching”.]

It is also probably worth pointing out that \"there is less evidence for superstrings [one of mainstream science's current favorite darlings] than there is for ESP.\" In fact, there is no experimental evidence for superstring theories, or for the other increasingly exotic 'theories of everything' posed in theorectical physics.\" [2] And yet, all the learned papers being published in physics journals on superstrings... and nothing on ESP. Hmmmmm...

Finally, As Peter and Helen Evans have said, \"Practically speaking, your subconscious doesn't know the difference between you and everybody else.\" Thus, any communications between the two or many of you is almost an automatic assumption.

For an even more light-hearted approach to the subject of ESP, consider the stage play, Perceptions. We promise not to report your momentary departure from reality. After all, all the world is Illusion. No kidding. OR simply return to Communications, Media, Education and press onward. (Assuming you can find the button for “onward”, which below, is cleverly and cunningly disguised as “Media ”.)

___________________________

References:

[1] \"Frontiers of Research, Sixth Sense of Nonsense?\", shift at the Frontiers of Consciousness, Institute of Noetic Sciences, March-May 2004.

[2] Dean Radin, \"The Emperor's New Media\", shift at the Frontiers of Consciousness, Institute of Noetic Sciences, March-May 2004.

Synthesis Communications, Education, Health Kali Yuga

Or forward to:

Media Inter Net Discrimination Education




The Library of ialexandriah

2003© Copyright Dan Sewell Ward, All Rights Reserved[/b]

Actually I'm interested to know which engineers and physicists you've been talking to.

So these things never happened? Any sources to share? [/b]

How about millenias of scientific research beginning with Aristarchus of Samos in ancient times, and reaching a crescendo which is now today on the verge of uniting electromagnetism, nuclear forces and gravity with String Theory. Even if it proves wrong, I still got all the other Physical Laws backin' me up.

You are an army of 1 against an army of 1,000,000.

Peace. 8)

Actually I'm an army of every name mentioned in the earlier texts, the people that know them, and everyone who has access to the facts I've posted, against you, the one name you mentioned, and those who believe as you do.

Citing imbalanced scales makes it no more true than saying "Because it's just not real!"

Being as interested in string theory as I am, I'd like to hear your explanation of the relationship between string theory and the debunking of metaphysics such as remote viewing, and some sources, please.

Oh....and if you believe that ancient research proves that none of the above claims never happened, even though they are ALL readily researchable, it gives a slight window into the logic behind your claim. Not an insult, just an observation.

TOTALLY missed the point...



I'll let you figure it out.

Lol. That's an interesting exit tactic.

Got your point. Mine is that I'd like to hear of all of the physicist and engineers that you know of that can either disprove the above facts, or have quoted, factually, that things like remote viewing don't exist.

Now that we've been reminded of each other's points, how about addressing mine?

Myriad902 said

I'm going to sound harsh, but frankly of sick of this...all this talk about predicting future events, remote viewing, gathering energy balls into your hands like you guys are characters out of Dragon Ball Z.

1) Predicting Future Events - I'm sorry to break it to you, but this doesn't work. Want to know why? because it is a fundamental law in physics. In the 1930s Quantum Mechanics was invented (I don't really remember, but some key figures were Erwin Schroedinger, Werner Heisenberg, Max Planck, and possibly Niels Bohr). Before this law of nature was discovered, Newton predicted that if we knew the direction and velocities of every single particle in the entire universe, we'd be able to know how the universe would evolve anytime in the future (this is in principle, obviously impossible in practice). Quantum mechanics came about, and we discovered that the atomic world was very unpredictable. Every single particle in the universe (including you, your brain, brain cells, toes) and every single group of particles bound together (the things I just mentioned) are bound by a single or common \"wavefunction\". I'm just going to cut to the chase and say that Quantum Mechanics says that all particles have a probabilistic nature attached to it in which you can never know how the past has evolved, or how the future will evolve EVER. The details don't matter but, IT IS A LAW OF THE UNIVERSE, PREDICTING THE FUTURE IS ***IMPOSSIBLE*** IN THIS WORLD. SO SHUT UP! [/b]

Wow! I knew you were going to say that, how wierd! Maybe I can see the future!

http://www.p-i-a.com/Magazine/Issue24/Conn...ections_24.html

Originally posted by Myriad902
Can someone legit tell me if PSI is possible or not?...I'm going to sound harsh, but frankly of sick of this....

Cognitive dissonance and resulting frustration and anger.
The rest of your post is simply ranting and screaming what you want to believe.
You might be right, or wrong, but not because you're ranting it.

use your brains whover made this topic.... there are more scientists that are incorrect than correct.... back 1000+ years ago there was a ton of "scientific evidence" that is now proven wrong.(some of the top scientists back a couple of thousand years ago thought the worold was flat and there were dragons at the bottom) how do we know that in 1000 years from now some other scientist will prove todays scientists wrong.... all youve been saying is "its not true some stupid scientist said so". the people arguing against you gave exact quotes so please.... shutup!


Edit: oh and with the summoning psi balls.... its actually taking energy from within you or AROUND you... not magically making evergy! please... do your research before making a topic like this

Relatively recently, scientists denied the existence of lucid dreams and hypnosis.
Go figure.

Originally posted by Myriad902
Can someone legit tell me if PSI is possible or not?

Who the hell is "Legit" ... that just made me laugh like crazy. If you don't belive in it, there is no reason for you to go all crazy about, let the ones who belive in it discuss by themself, theres no need for you to bash out nonsense. I don't belive in it, but I don't go bashing senseless

how can u say that got does not exist, for u to be typing using ur fingers on ur computer is proof of god, r u that ignorant that u dont realize that????? how would u be who u r out of all the people in the world in this time that we live in with out GOD. how did u come from nothing to being there trying to disclaim god??? give me a good reason how

Give me a good reason for how God appeared.

Once more into the fray...

Keep it nice, guys. I hate seeing people insult each other like this. Also, if this turns into another religious debate, it's getting moved.

Its funny how generally topics on PSI end up like this. My guess is its generally because of the lack of presenting any evidence supporting the subject and seems to run solely on belief. What do you think Lost Soul?

One seeking power or unique abilities and one that truly knows the way to reaching their goal wouldn't require the approval of anyone else and would not likely speak of it in general but concentrate on the path that lies towards achieving their goal.
For, what reason is there to speak of something one does not yet have? 'Tis the same as lying. The best proof is through actions, not words.

On the other hand, however, why care to "prove" others "wrong"? (I used the words in quotation marks considering their horrible subjectivity.) Does it matter so much if those obsessed with illusions that they do not put any effort in to realize rant about it?
Words here do not have great effect either, actions of observation without interference, however, show aspects of patience and wisdom.

In my case, I dont revel in proving people wrong as much as despise if people are trying to get people to jump on some sort of pervebeal bandwagon that most likely doesn't exist. When people claim to do something in the physical plane of existance I think its only fair to ask them to show us, dont you? I dont think people are trying to change those that claim to have said powers so much as they are trying to keep others from worshiping 'golden idols', of sorts.

I did not mean anyone in particular in my words of course.

In reply to your last sentence though: just like actions speak louder than words - experiences are far more convincing than any words can ever be. Learning from one's own mistakes is the firmest way to truly understand a part of existance, whatever it may be. However, I've known people that think it wiser to learn from the mistakes of others, which I must say makes sense indeed but I'm not one to say, which is more effective.

In short: if someone truly decides to "worship golden idols" then I doubt many words will convince them otherwise until they either find what they are looking for or see that they've mistaken.

*ahem*

-you're sick of this...
unwanted info: if i am discussing god, and i say he doesn't exist, i don't say i'm sick of it...
i give reasons why i'm sick of it... saying you're sick of it... or phrases like "shut up" make people ignore the stuff you typed...
example: i didn't even wanted to finish reading when i saw that phrase.

what i also wanted to say:

Cognitive dissonance and resulting frustration and anger.
The rest of your post is simply ranting and screaming what you want to believe.
You might be right, or wrong, but not because you're ranting it.[/b]

but placebo was first...

Relatively recently, scientists denied the existence of lucid dreams and hypnosis.
Go figure.
[/b]

i have not heard that, but clearly that is a clear proof that even scientists aren't right... or that we are crazy...

also: there is not much proof of psi in this world, but hey, that doesn't automatically mean it doesn't exist right?

how can u say that got does not exist, for u to be typing using ur fingers on ur computer is proof of god, r u that ignorant that u dont realize that????? how would u be who u r out of all the people in the world in this time that we live in with out GOD. how did u come from nothing to being there trying to disclaim god??? give me a good reason how[/b]

i can't see how that fits in this thread,
and really, give me proof god exists,
i have never have seen one piece of evidence that god exists



and because i understand there are alot of insultments been throwing around in here:
and please, don't insult me, i didn't do that to you...

and oneironaut: for giving us SOME proof...

Originally posted by CryoDragoon


and oneironaut: for giving us SOME proof...

Welcome.

Here's a little more on this thread:
http://www.dreamviews.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=25858

And if you're ever able to find s'more, feel free to post it!

Yeah, let's please keep God out of this discussion. It has nothing directly to do with whether psi exists. We don't want this moved to religious discussion do we?

All of the World's higher Religions have emphaticlly asserted that there have been Saints who had repeatedly been able to summon supernatural powers. Catholicism had actually set up Courts and procedures for the verification of such phenomena, only allowing evidence that meets the highest legal standards. There is enough documentation to fill libraries the size of warehouses. Indeed, it is a shame more people don't read such books, but more than a few books have been published using these Vatican papers and files as source materials. Then, I had heard that in the Near East, there are a great good many documents from the Golden Age of Islam, before the Mongols came and devastated their Civilization (Christianity had its Crusaders, famous for having succeeded in their fight. but the Persian Crusaders were defeated -- overrun by the Mongols, and so History has forgotten their valient effort. Had the succeeded, they would now have to listen to Protestants who accuse them of barbarity in having successfull defended their Civilization from Invaders). Apparently, many important documents were hidden in the hills when the Mongols invaded. Many have been recovered and collected. But there are no research funds available and so scholars have not received grants to examine and translate these priceless papers. And people cannot spend years doing these things just for the fun of it. And so these wonderful Sufi Source Documents are just collecting dust.

There is no regulatory body examining the Miracles of the Hindu Saints, but again, we have a great deal of informal documentation. Some Miracles have been well into the Modern Era. One favorite Saint of India -- part Sufi, part Hindu -- was Sai Baba of Shirdi. He had a gruff personality and almost seemed intent upon courting people's displeasure. he was famous for one thing only -- his Miracles. There is quite a famous cult book regarding this Sai Baba: http://www.saibaba.org/saisatc.html legend has it that if one reads it in a seven day period, then one earns a certain Blessing. But technically, there are better books about Shirdi Sai Baba.

Back in the early seventies Richard Alpert, aka Ram Das, who had been a friend and colleague of Timothy Leary in the good old psychodelic Acid Days, wrote several books -- "Be Here Now" and some other books specifically about his Indian Guru Neem Karali Baba, though "Be Here Now", if you can still find it, covered some of the same ground. Neem Kerali Baba performed a great good deal of miracles. And one needs to remember that Richard Alpert, despite all the drugs, was first of all a Doctor trained in the Sciences. heck... the guy was from Harvard!