Thread: Nirvana a Lucid Dream??

Ok, I'm not trying to be sacrilegious or anything but could it be possible that Buddha's "enlightenment" was just a Lucid dream??? And the whole Buddhist religion is based around one man's experience in his lucid dream? Could it be that Lucid dreaming is Nirvana???? Any thoughts on this?

That does make some sense. Also, I’m not trying to be sacrilegious either.


- Axis

Originally posted by Beansphil
Ok, I'm not trying to be sacrilegious or anything but could it be possible that Buddha's "enlightenment" was just a Lucid dream??? And the whole Buddhist religion is based around one man's experience in his lucid dream? Could it be that Lucid dreaming is Nirvana???? Any thoughts on this?

Have you ever read Huxley's book on Altared States of Consciousness? Also, there was a book about "Varieties of Religious Experience". Much has been written upon the Mystical Experience. Buddha was by no means very unique. But if you are to examine the Mystical Experience, you will find that it is extremely powerful. People really do walk away from a Mystical Experience thinking that their lives have been completely changed, or at least their perspectives. When has any Lucid Dream done that?

I've had some powerful, even spiritual Lucid Dreams, and I have had a good deal of afterglow and all that, from some certain dreams. But I am still waiting for that Mystical Satori Samadhi Nirvana Experience.

But, yes, it would be worth a try.

That New Saint, the Young Man from Nepal, Bomjon Ram Palden Dorje, he recommended a Mantra -- OM NAMO BUDDHA GYANI.... (translated as "OM Name Buddha Wisdom"... but it is more or less a formulaic Mantra much like many Sanskrit Mantras... or in this case a Sanskrit patois ) I'll have to try that Mantra in my next Lucid Dream and see what Magic transpires.

It's not that simple.

Two of the seven factors of enlightment are investigation and concentration. LD can (and almost certainly is) a worthy path for both of these factors, but it is not the end by any stretch. It can be a tool and a part of the result.

"Contemporary man is born asleep, lives asleep, and dies asleep. And what knowledge could a sleeping man have? If you think about it and at the same time remember that sleep is the chief feature of our being, you will soon understand that if man wishes to obtain knowledge, he should first of all think about how to awaken himself, that is about how to change his being."
--George Gurdjieff

Originally posted by pj
It's not that simple.

Two of the seven factors of enlightment are investigation and concentration. LD can (and almost certainly is) a worthy path for both of these factors, but it is not the end by any stretch. It can be a tool and a part of the result.

"Contemporary man is born asleep, lives asleep, and dies asleep. And what knowledge could a sleeping man have? If you think about it and at the same time remember that sleep is the chief feature of our being, you will soon understand that if man wishes to obtain knowledge, he should first of all think about how to awaken himself, that is about how to change his being."
--George Gurdjieff

Oh fucking Gurdjieff was just good at scamming people. Like Krishna Murti he somehow was able to make a fortune writing books and giving lectures instructing people on how extremely stupid they were, and inexplicably the people would line up for it, eager for the insults. But I guess it was true to the extent that Stupid People were the largest audience for these lectures so rich with accusation of Stupidity. The right audience was listening. But it does cast something of a shade on people who would quote them.

Originally posted by Leo Volont


Oh fucking Gurdjieff was just good at scamming people. Like Krishna Murti he somehow was able to make a fortune writing books and giving lectures instructing people on how extremely stupid they were, and inexplicably the people would line up for it, eager for the insults. But I guess it was true to the extent that Stupid People were the largest audience for these lectures so rich with accusation of Stupidity. The right audience was listening. But it does cast something of a shade on people who would quote them.

Ouch, heh. I've just become interested in Buddhism-- I'll have to read more about it and then post another reply.

Beansphil, Axis, I think you two set the bar too low. pj, I'm not sure who your "it's not so simple" comment applies to, but I think enlightment is much simpler than seven steps. Also it seems you are limiting the possibilities of dreaming.

I recently read this article by Jayne Gackenberg in which it reported a man who could control his eye movement during all phases of sleep, lead to states of pure consciousness after two years. Basically, by WILDing into every dream, then staying awake after each dream ended, meditating the entire time, he would experience "pure consciousness" described as being in a sea of loving light known as God.

Having seen the light, I know my enlightenment was not a dream, and also the description of God may be accurate. Pure consciousness, possibly the samadhi thing Leo mentioned, is on my to do list. Since it seems like a big step, I will post some other experiences that you may use as stepping stones on your own to do lists. None of these were dreams by the way.

Experience 1 - Enlightenment
Well I saw this circle of light that made me feel undeniably happy. It was not like any other light as it was brilliant and just contained within the circle. I felt like such a child just staring in wonder.

Now, neither I nor anyone else can tell you how to acheive this. I can tell you what I was thinking that I believe triggered it. I thought "Wow, nothing is real, perception is just that, we cannot completely observe anything. There is only one truth we can know and it is that we cannot know anything".

Experience 2 - Full body orgasms
Yes males can do it too, done this three times in total now. It's a lot more work than a regular one, and each time it takes more stimulation but is more intense. It is more elegance than brute force, you just have to let it come to you. I suggest googling "tantra" and reading sections of sample PDFs you can find, as at least one has more information on it. Full body orgasms can lead to altered states of consciousness, that is the basis of tantra, combining sex and spirituality.

Basically, you need to pull the pleasurable feelings up into the stomach away from the genitals. For starters, one may crunch up the abdomen and hold it until it is tired, right before genital orgasm. Then the orgasm starts higher in the stomach and you can sample that pleasurable feeling to pull up into the stomach. Since it does take more stimulation, be gentle or you may need some recovery time.

Experience 3 - Flowing
This happened after coming close to another full body O, but I was tired, gave up and just laid still as I was headed off towards sleep. It's like I just tuned in to a deeper part of the self. I was gently rocking back and forth. My insides felt like liquid too, crashing back and forth like water in a bath tub. I had such a strong feeling of being connected to everything. This only happened once, I still have no idea how to control it...but I have willed for it to happen again.

Interesting article there Distant Clone, I will definately try your suggestions.

Oh fucking Gurdjieff was just good at scamming people. Like Krishna Murti he somehow was able to make a fortune writing books and giving lectures instructing people on how extremely stupid they were, and inexplicably the people would line up for it, eager for the insults. But I guess it was true to the extent that Stupid People were the largest audience for these lectures so rich with accusation of Stupidity. The right audience was listening. But it does cast something of a shade on people who would quote them. [/b]

gurdjieff was often obscure and even incomprehensible (on purpose i suspect), but he had much of value to say as well. i first began to awaken while reading "the fourth way", which is a collection of talks between gurdjieff and others.


if you had a crowd of lackeys hungering for your every word like krishnamurti or gurdjieff had at various points you would be as happy as a pig in shit. then those stupid sheep would seem much more intelligent for grasping the dazzling truths you would lay before them...

perhaps you are just jealous that have nobody willing to pay money for you to tell them how stupid they are...

I just now started learning more about Buddhism and enlightenment. It's VERY interesting, and I'm definitively going to learn more about meditation, but I always wandered about the relationship between lucid dreaming the the meditation techniques practiced by Buddhist monks.

I'm not an expert in lucid dreaming, though I've been practicing it for some time; nor am I an expert in Buddhism, and I can't help but think there has to be a connection, since there is always something so familiar about the Nirvana state. Every time I read about experiences describing Nirvana, there is always something that reminds me of a lucid dream.

Think about it:
Siddhartha's experience resisting Marra's temptation and would not lose his concentration.
The notion that everything is on fire, what you see, hear, taste and touch.
The idea of existing within oneself, the bliss, the happiness, the peace, being able to SEE each thought...

Those are all things I read about, and yet, it felt like I were talking about lucid dreaming. Think how hard it is to concentrate, and not lose focus in the beginning of a WILD. Think about the imagery, the vibrations, the weight on your body; one might say your vision, hearing, taste, and touch are on fire. And then, all of a sudden "the fire is extinguished", and you exist within yourself, and there is that feeling of peace, happiness, the bliss of being a lucid dream, where each thought is as "real" as a thought can be.

I'm almost convinced Buddhist monks lucid dream, actually. They say enlightenment changes you, and I'm a completely different person because of lucid dreaming. They say Nirvana is to see the absolute truth, to take the veil from your eyes, and isn't lucid dreaming pretty much the "materialization" of your thoughts? If your "thoughts" are a representation of your true self, then lucid dreaming is a materialization of your true self, which is hidden in flesh, and confounded by the chaos of this material world.

Anyway, just some thoughts...

Originally Posted by padawan

I'm almost convinced Buddhist monks lucid dream, actually. They say enlightenment changes you, and I'm a completely different person because of lucid dreaming. They say Nirvana is to see the absolute truth, to take the veil from your eyes, and isn't lucid dreaming pretty much the "materialization" of your thoughts? If your "thoughts" are a representation of your true self, then lucid dreaming is a materialization of your true self, which is hidden in flesh, and confounded by the chaos of this material world.

Anyway, just some thoughts...

Quite relevant

http://www.dreamviews.com/f19/what-d...0/#post1801235

enjoy

Originally Posted by Spiratio

Quite relevant

http://www.dreamviews.com/f19/what-d...0/#post1801235

enjoy

Very insightful post on the link you gave me. My take on the subject is a little different. I guess I'm on the side of simplicity. I simply believe the soul is composed of body and spirit, and our everyday consciousness is a "clouded reality" which is a result of our material body (not that spirit isn't matter, just matter different than our physical bodies, more like a type of energy). So in other words, I think our fleshly existence hides reality, true reality, which was done for our own good by someone who really loved humanity. I believe in a higher degree of understanding and wisdom, but also that it must be achieved. The fact that our reality is clouded by our mortal existence is good, because it makes each individual work for his enlightenment, and those who do not work for it haven't earned it. When an astral projection takes place, I believe you have completely severed the link between spirit and body.

Your body cannot be in more than one place at once, since it is physical, but your spirit can. I said the spirit is a form of energy, so think of it as light. Light radiates as far as it's source can take it. So our body is like a "fog", and our spirit is within it, so it can't radiate very far, now if there is no fog, how far can your light shine? You can go anywhere, talk to anyone, you are everywhere, all the time, in fact, if you can see the past and the future, what is the significance of time? To me, that is an astral projection, your spirit radiating its presence and influence beyond the "fog" imposed by your physical body.

This is a hard concept to understand, I think, because humans think linearly. For example, your vision covers between 160 and 180 degrees, your eyes can only see radiation with a wavelength between 380 and 740 manometers, and what you see is only what is before your eyes. Imagine if you could see what's in front, behind, beside, on top, and underneath you, all at once... what is in the past and what is in the future. To me, this is what it feels to "see" with your spiritual eyes. In fact, all senses become one, so you see, hear, taste, and feel all things.

Anyway, I'm curious to know what you think about what I just told you

From how I interpret what you said it all seams to be compatible with how my own esoteric interpretation is oriented. I'll address each facet of your beliefs and weigh it with my own point of view. I know it can be annoying when people say they know that reality is a certain way, but forgive me, for I cannot say that what I write is what I believe, because I have had NDEs which confirm it (esoteric evidence) as well as everyday lucid waking activities which seem to proliferate as a subliminal influence upon my space and those whom enter it.

One of the other factors is that in the past I noticed when I said I believe something regarding what I have experienced as real by proxy of NDEs. I found myself feeling really off centre, almost like I was devalueing my words/lieingto myself and others by saying that I “believe” thereby inferring that I don't know. Its complicated lol. And I have lost many friends because of it, but the fact that remains is that if I were to remain off centre I wouldn't be valued authentically anyway so its no real loss.

So, here is what I feel regarding your own post.

I interpret the soul, spirit & body the same way, only I feel the material world is spirit too, only denser (further displaced from true source than what is typically thought of as spiritual light and energy). You probably agree with this as well as its only a play on words and further in depth look at the same perspective really.

Regarding the enlightenment factor, I feel that what you said is mostly true with the exception that it has been made more difficult by certain mystery schools and sects of religion. There is two sides to enlightenment... one is direct - intuitive (non-linear) and the other is learnt – cognitive (linear.) I feel it to be wrong to intentionally influence the non-linear upon another through direct means, it is indeed that which is hidden from plain site, by the divine until an individual is ready, for very good reasons. There are certain materialistic approaches to induce this enlightenment such as psychedelic drugs and shamanic practices. However these render only a slither of the whole picture, which mind you can seem vast in contrast to what is known before hand. Thereby one can potentially be under the impression that they have become totally enlightened, which sometimes tempts them to misuse their ESP for gain, if they were totally enlightened they would not tho because they would understand the consequences. Another thing to avoid is the Axion spin generator and high doses of monatomic gold (otherwise known as white gold or ormus.)

The non-linear can be processed through linearised portions of learnt enlightenment which is permissible by source so long as guidelines are given. This information cannot awaken an individual to the non-linear awareness unless they are actually ready, or until it is necessary to learn a lesson that they have avoided, for the sake of themselves and others. The latter can happen at anytime whether an individual reads anything provocative or not anyway.

Regarding working for enlightenment I feel that in a sense seeking it is working for it, it is a vibrational signature that signals to the mysterious the readiness to embrace. Thus if one finds or is presented (in as much as an offering not actually being told) with it, then the mysterious has deliberately orchestrated that situation for own benefit (whether one uses the information to better themselves is entirely up to them)

There is a post I made on FB which I will also share regarding this. Its kind of in its own league and diverges allot from answering your question directly so I will post it afterward.
...

I do feel there is a link to the physical body and the astral under most circumstances. Only when one dies is it severed completley. Like you used the analogy of the light and how far it can shine I attribute the same example, with the factor that it is like an elastic band. When ones awareness is not totally stable in the Astral it becomes fragmented and the astral body slowly losse cohesion like a rubber band being streatchd and becoming finner as one pushes further than their resources can take them, so once one exceeds the extent of their source at any time one is then flung back to the physical in an instant, thereby accounting for sudden jolting awakenings in which one cannot remember what was occuring before they awoke. That being because as the chord becomes finer and finer its transferral of information to the physical origin (seat of projected consciousness) is less effective and eventually if it is pushed to far the content of the experience is not yielded upon awaking. On the other hand if one awakens because they get excited they will still have plenty of energy that could have been used, so the experienc is retained. I feel that a master who lucid dreams naturally every night is unlimited tho and they can go every where and anywhere they wish. The factor of energy is no longer an issue they are infinite.

I tend toward the notion that the conundrum that comes with using external methods of inducing enlightenment, specifically psychedelic substances... is that more often than not, they stream insights at a rate faster than can be retained in the cognitive centres. Overall it can have a liberating effect on the subconscious/intuitive centres all the whilst high or under the influence of a prop of some sort, but there are no lasting results yielded, psychedelics can yield insight however that is only half of the equation where total enlightenment is concerned. Some methods other than psychedelics can set in motion the process of metamorphosis, but it is always wise to make sure that it allows self sovereignty if the process requires a mediator, otherwise the persons whom provide the “service” are only interested in making others feel dependent. So as to either put money in their pockets or feed on the faith and gratitude offered for the (false) acts of benevolence.

When people use methods which achieve temporary/partial shifts into enlightened awareness, this then tends to inculcate a belief in people that enlightenment is something that is incomprehensible. However that belief is an illusion.
Often this renders the subsequent belief that there is no reason to aspire to enlightenment via purist means. The Buddha is the example that is referred to, and people thereby think that they have to give up everything they are familiar with and comforted by, so as to attain permanent enlightenment. This however, is yet another illusion, because what is referred to is a threshold of spiritual potential which resides in the past.

The sages of the past lived in times when the technological advancements were futile at yielding analogous examples to help others understand what they in their respective times had comprehended. Thus they didn't bother with trying (or more aptly they couldn't for it was infeasible) so instead they just set a compassionate example of living, of which was resonant with those insights; knowing that the way of living demonstrated was the way for others to attain those insights as a constant.

We are now living in an era where technology enables the fathomment of the non-linear principles of Akashic space that all the ancient sages understood. They could see it in maths via their own higher perceptive comprehension of the non-linear, but they couldn't convey it articulately to the masses due to limited technological examples to serve as analogy.

This means that the same levels and greater of insightful understanding can be learned second hand, without having to become a sage in seclusion who meditates day in day out for 40 odd years before being able integrate it.

Nirvana is not a lucid dream, it is waking up to a nightmare of daytime.

It is like a candle that, in realizing it's own buddha nature, extinguishes itself. It is like a lucid dreamer that realizes he is also just a dream character, and vanishes into the mists of the mind. Not his mind, as all notions of ownership are let go of, all identity is burned up in the pyre of truth, all familiar footholds crumble underneath the gravity of the realization.

Nope. Enlightenment is not about going to a special happy place, it's about waking up to what is.

And enlightenment is not like a one time thing. It's not like once you've had an experience you are forever enlightened. It's easy to slip back into being deluded but once you've had the experience it's also easier to recognize that and wake back up so to speak.

Edit: I want to explain but it's my brothers birthday and I've overeaten badly, I'm too tired, sorry. Maybe this will help.

 [Heart of Great Perfect Wisdom Sutra]
{on each syllable} { All--shashu mudra}
Avalokiteshvara Bodhisattva, practicing deep Prajna Paramita
clearly saw that all five skandhas are empty,
transforming all suffering and distress. 

Shariputra, form is no other than emptiness,
emptiness no other than form;
form is exactly emptiness, emptiness exactly form;
sensation, perception, mental reaction, consciousness
are also like this.

Shariputra, all things are essentially empty—
not born, not destroyed; not stained, not pure;
without loss, without gain.
Therefore in emptiness there is no form, no sensation,
perception, mental reaction, consciousness;
no eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, mind;
no color, sound, smell, taste, touch, object of thought;
no seeing and so on to no thinking;
no ignorance and also no ending of ignorance,
and so on to no old age and death and also no ending of
old age and death;
no suffering, cause of suffering, cessation, path, no
wisdom and no attainment.

Since there is nothing to attain, the bodhisattva lives
by Prajna Paramita, 
with no hindrance in the mind; no hindrance, and
therefore no fear;
far beyond delusive thinking, right here is Nirvana.
All Buddhas of past, present and future live by Prajna Paramita,
attaining Anuttara-samyak-sambodhi. 

Therefore know that Prajna Paramita
is the great sacred mantra, the great vivid mantra,
the unsurpassed mantra, the supreme mantra,
which completely removes all suffering.
This is truth, not mere formality.
Therefore set forth the Prajna Paramita mantra.
Set forth this mantra and proclaim:

Gaté Gaté Paragaté Parasamgaté Bodhi Svaha!
Gaté Gaté Paragaté Parasamgaté Bodhi Svaha!
Gaté Gaté ParagatéParasamgaté{(run)} Bodhi Svaha!