Thread: Why do You believe?

Originally Posted by LucidFlanders

I don't believe in things because others do, i prefer to not believe in either thing because i have no clue what the truth is.

If you admit that you don't know the truth, then why don't you make an actual effort to clear yourself of preconceived notions (I don't think it's possible to say that and not be a hypocrite) and look into religion beyond what you hear on pro-atheism YouTube videos. It's making you look like the closed-minded one.

Originally Posted by gratismat

this I know from experience discussing religion with some people irl, they were of course as you probably can see by this very closeminded and did circular reflections all the time like; how can it not be true, it says it right here in the bible

I've never known anyone who believed solely on this basis (how could you with all the texts of other religions and the obviously circular reasoning). There is other evidence -- evidence for both sides -- and people with half a brain can easily find it and point it out.

you practising your english there gratismat? seem a little confused

i prefer to not believe in either thing because i have no clue what the truth is.

only trying to help ~_~ truth is you exist, i thought i provided a view where it was not a matter of belief or correct/incorrect, but exploration and developing your conciousness,

maybe you need different reasoning, i guess everyone needs to find their own reasoning

http://sacred-texts.com/eso/ryo/index.htm an interesting read

you can look into religion a bit there as well,

Originally Posted by Dodopod

If you admit that you don't know the truth, then why don't you make an actual effort to clear yourself of preconceived notions (I don't think it's possible to say that and not be a hypocrite) and look into religion beyond what you hear on pro-atheism YouTube videos. It's making you look like the closed-minded one.



I've never known anyone who believed solely on this basis (how could you with all the texts of other religions and the obviously circular reasoning). There is other evidence -- evidence for both sides -- and people with half a brain can easily find it and point it out.

Feel free to point it out for me!

Originally Posted by Keiju

you practising your english there gratismat? seem a little confused



only trying to help ~_~ truth is you exist, i thought i provided a view where it was not a matter of belief or correct/incorrect, but exploration and developing your conciousness,

maybe you need different reasoning, i guess everyone needs to find their own reasoning

http://sacred-texts.com/eso/ryo/index.htm an interesting read

you can look into religion a bit there as well,

Hah, yeah. The problem is that I'm wery good at speaking and therefore writing sorta advanced, however my spelling is terrible, this goes for my own language aswell, hopefully I will learn this someday, correctly.

I was only trying to point out some of the problems with religion, these problems goes for other things aswell like political ideologies and hardcore atheism... I see little diffrence between them actually. Hopefully you did understand what I meant by the "limiting your mind" thing...

I believe in that God is all. Which means everything is somehow connected. Anyway, therefor, I wonder if dreamsharing is possible.

My computer speakers can even receive cell phone waves! They aren't made for that, but each time I receive an incoming message my speaker makes a noise. Since everything is made out of waves, they will influence eachother even if they are on a difference plane! (like radio waves influencing my speakers). Everything is supposed to be made out of waves of energy basicly, light waves etc, even material is a form of waves. So I've always wondered if it was possible to send and receive 'dreams'. You can see dreams as advanced thoughts, so it would kinda be the same as telepathy. We can already do it throug sound waves (speech) and lightwaves (writing) but the interesting part, is, is this possible through brain waves? How far can we manipulate the universe with our brain.. I dunno, I'd like to believe dreamsharing is possible, but howcome nobody can do it

I think that brain waves are too weak to be picked up more than a foot away.

How about pigeons? They can pick up waves with their brains to know where they are. Funny enough, the part with which they do it is the third eye. The same place where science thinks our minds eye is (the eye through which you see your dreams). It's called the pineal gland.. look it up

Originally Posted by ChaybaChayba

I'd like to believe dreamsharing is possible, but howcome nobody can do it

ChaybaChayba,
I experienced dreamsharing just last weekend. I had a dream of someone and when I saw him the next day I asked him about his dreams; he proceeded to describe the dream I had of him because he had just dreamed the same dream!
Anyone who is passionate about developing their dreaming abilities can experience dreamsharing.
Nemo

Cool.. when I get better at lucid dreaming im gonna keep trying it until I know for sure wether or not it works for me. Dreamsharing would be one of the coolest things ever.

One time, I had a really weird experience. I had this very very vivid dream of the cat having 3 kittens, one of the kittens was really small compared to the other two, and there was definately something wrong with it.

So I thought this dream told me the cat was going to have three kittens. But when I told my dream to my dads girlfriend, the owner of the cat, she told me the cat had had three kittens last year, and one of them died, because it was handicapped at birth! I didn't know that, so howcome the dream showed me?!

This could've been coincidence, but I never dream about that cat, and now I had this very very vivid dream, it's just as if I saw the dream of the cat.. at that time I didn't keep a dreamjournal, and I rarely remembered dreams.

Originally Posted by Dodopod

I think that brain waves are too weak to be picked up more than a foot away.

Picked up by what?

I find it quite amusing that people refer to religion and science as if they unto themselves are united. There are many types of religion, different approaches, different beliefs. Science, though we perceive it as the pursuit of truth, more often than not seems to be about chasing that next government grant- it's rare to see 'non-safe' research going on out there.

Idealistically they are both in the pursuit of ultimate connectedness of truth and everything in the universe. One says it's the quantum field, the other (in the past, and is slowly coming up again) that the aetheric field of unified consciousness connects us all. Perhaps I am wrong after all, maybe they are just different mirrors of each other? In any case, quite recently there is a slow but gradual convergence of them

But really, to answer the initial question, you need to refocus your mind and try to think beyond what your senses tell you. Our senses bind us to a small part of the universe, but we already know there is a lot more to the universe than what we can detect with our senses alone. Meditation is the best way to rekindle this connection, in my experience anyway.

In the end, it is a free-will choice to let go and know there is something more. I've experienced more synchronicities in my time to know there is more to the universe than I can perceive and control. I've attained enough inner peace and satisfaction to come to this conclusion.

The first step is so hard, but it gets easier every step of the way

Religion has always claimed there was a God. There was something that connected this entire universe. Religion already knows this for thousand and thousand of years. Now, only recently, science also is coming to the same point. That the whole universe is connected.

Originally Posted by saxonharp

Picked up by what?

fMRI, EEG, ..

Pigeons can use their pinael gland to pick up waves from the earth to naturally find their way home. What if we humans could use our pinael gland to pick up waves from earth to? This pinael gland is the part of our brain thats produces melatonin which is the hormone that creates dreams. I guess you can say it functions in some animals as an electromagnetic wave receiver (everything in this universe is some sort of energy wave. even matter and sound). The question is, what does the pinael gland do with humans except producing the dreaming hormones? It's also called the third eye, or the minds eye....

If telekinesis and dreamsharing and stuff like that existed, it would probably happen through the minds eye, since that part of our brain is like a electromagnetic wave receiver. But why do we have it.. we don't need to find our way home like pigeons

Originally Posted by ChaybaChayba

Religion has always claimed there was a God. There was something that connected this entire universe. Religion already knows this for thousand and thousand of years. Now, only recently, science also is coming to the same point. That the whole universe is connected.


fMRI, EEG, ..

Pigeons can use their pinael gland to pick up waves from the earth to naturally find their way home. What if we humans could use our pinael gland to pick up waves from earth to? This pinael gland is the part of our brain thats produces melatonin which is the hormone that creates dreams. I guess you can say it functions in some animals as an electromagnetic wave receiver (everything in this universe is some sort of energy wave. even matter and sound). The question is, what does the pinael gland do with humans except producing the dreaming hormones? It's also called the third eye, or the minds eye....

If telekinesis and dreamsharing and stuff like that existed, it would probably happen through the minds eye, since that part of our brain is like a electromagnetic wave receiver. But why do we have it.. we don't need to find our way home like pigeons

Isn't it so that the pineal gland in the pigeon act's as a kind of compass, if so it's not so much about telekinesis

Yeah indeed but the waves they receive to make it act like a kind of compass are the same kind of waves we send out of our brains. All im saying is that we are most likely are capable of receiving brainwaves from other people, but we just filter them out or something.

Birds have their pineal gland telling you where to go based on the electromagnetic waves it receives. What if someone created the waves by himself using some device to control where to pigeon is going. If the guy would be able to create the waves with his brains, it would be telekinesis right? And what if the guy is only able to create the waves through a device, what would you call it then..?

There already exist devices that you put on someones scalp, and then you can control their movement with a remote control.. just like playing with a toy car with remote control. Theres a vid on youtube of it

Originally Posted by ChaybaChayba

Yeah indeed but the waves they receive to make it act like a kind of compass are the same kind of waves we send out of our brains. All im saying is that we are most likely are capable of receiving brainwaves from other people, but we just filter them out or something.

You sure about these things with brainwaves, I mean I compass is a very simple thing to make without using waves in a pinpointing-localizing-device-part of the brain. Couldn't it also be the truth that they just use some kind of internal magnet?

Originally Posted by ChaybaChayba

If telekinesis and dreamsharing and stuff like that existed, it would probably happen through the minds eye, since that part of our brain is like a electromagnetic wave receiver. But why do we have it.. we don't need to find our way home like pigeons

Maybe it controls our sense of direction like in pigeons.

Originally Posted by ChaybaChayba

All im saying is that we are most likely are capable of receiving brainwaves from other people, but we just filter them out or something.

Like I said, I doubt that you can pick up brainwaves from more than a foot away, which is why they have to put electrodes on your scalp to read your mind. Though I have seen instances where people thought of the same idea as me without apparent explanation or a thought popped into my head literally out of nowhere.

Originally Posted by gratismat

You sure about these things with brainwaves, I mean I compass is a very simple thing to make without using waves in a pinpointing-localizing-device-part of the brain. Couldn't it also be the truth that they just use some kind of internal magnet?

It could be gyroscopic in nature: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyroscopic_compass

Originally Posted by ChaybaChayba

There already exist devices that you put on someones scalp, and then you can control their movement with a remote control.. just like playing with a toy car with remote control. Theres a vid on youtube of it

Cool where?

Science and Religion are constantly associated as opposite concepts, while, IMHO, they are absolutely different. The fact is some science discoveries disprove facts in a lot of religions, creating a conflicting environment.

Truth is, religious facts cannot always be 'proven', and you can decide to believe something based only on your own experiences. Scientific facts, may be not entirely true, mistakes are a constant in this branch, but they try and explain why physical things happen and when they happen, through observation and experimentation.

You can't 'observe' god as a lab rat, since he's not physical (even if he is, we cannot reach him), so you can't explain him through our five senses. You can't see him, touch him, smell him, hear him or taste him. Ok, some of you may say "of course we can hear", so, could you record it and prove it ? Religion, is beyond science, because it involves feelings related to past knowledge, not to experimentation. If Science is 'physical', religion is 'physicological', they cannot even be compared. You can 'always' prove that an apple can fall off a tree, but it's a lot harder to prove that an apple has fallen off a tree many years ago. Perhaps not impossible, but, yeah, a lot harder.

Ok, "feelings related to knowledge", how so ? Usually, religions preach that you must love God because, before everything else, he created you, loved you, and he'd give his life for you. This, is just a concept. If it's true or not, we cannot judge, but if there is someone who loved me that much, I'd appreciate to love back. That's enough for me. "Feelings simulation". You'll never kiss god, or hug him. The only involvement is between you and your own self.

We cannot treat science as belief. We don't 'believe' in science, we accept it. Common sense and human evolution.

About paranormal stuff, it may exist, it may not. You can only tell by your own experiences, because it seems science can't explain some things yet. Don't believe it, try it. You may have success or not, but it's up to you if you will give up or not. It's hard to believe, since you're used seeing a world ruled by scientific laws. But every piece of code may have a flaw... a loophole. You just have to find it.

(long post :O) XD I've seen my share of weird stuff happening, but since I can't repeat the feat, doubts constantly persuade my mind. "Was it real?" It could be, or not.

My suggestion? If you want it to be true, seek it. Where there's a will, there's a way. No, not really , but it's still better than just sitting and waiting.

Originally Posted by Frosty Chaotix

Science and Religion are constantly associated as opposite concepts, while, IMHO, they are absolutely different. The fact is some science discoveries disprove facts in a lot of religions, creating a conflicting environment.

Truth is, religious facts cannot always be 'proven', and you can decide to believe something based only on your own experiences. Scientific facts, may be not entirely true, mistakes are a constant in this branch, but they try and explain why physical things happen and when they happen, through observation and experimentation.

You can't 'observe' god as a lab rat, since he's not physical (even if he is, we cannot reach him), so you can't explain him through our five senses. You can't see him, touch him, smell him, hear him or taste him. Ok, some of you may say "of course we can hear", so, could you record it and prove it ? Religion, is beyond science, because it involves feelings related to past knowledge, not to experimentation. If Science is 'physical', religion is 'physicological', they cannot even be compared. You can 'always' prove that an apple can fall off a tree, but it's a lot harder to prove that an apple has fallen off a tree many years ago. Perhaps not impossible, but, yeah, a lot harder.

Ok, "feelings related to knowledge", how so ? Usually, religions preach that you must love God because, before everything else, he created you, loved you, and he'd give his life for you. This, is just a concept. If it's true or not, we cannot judge, but if there is someone who loved me that much, I'd appreciate to love back. That's enough for me. "Feelings simulation". You'll never kiss god, or hug him. The only involvement is between you and your own self.

We cannot treat science as belief. We don't 'believe' in science, we accept it. Common sense and human evolution.

About paranormal stuff, it may exist, it may not. You can only tell by your own experiences, because it seems science can't explain some things yet. Don't believe it, try it. You may have success or not, but it's up to you if you will give up or not. It's hard to believe, since you're used seeing a world ruled by scientific laws. But every piece of code may have a flaw... a loophole. You just have to find it.

(long post :O) XD I've seen my share of weird stuff happening, but since I can't repeat the feat, doubts constantly persuade my mind. "Was it real?" It could be, or not.

My suggestion? If you want it to be true, seek it. Where there's a will, there's a way. No, not really , but it's still better than just sitting and waiting.

Just curious, does it make sense to you to belive that an apple has falled of a tree many years ago without finding the "evidence" suporting it?

Why I "" evidence is because there is no such thing as true evidence exept maby one, your own existence for yourself(Descartes and such...). This is what I think we've realy been discussing. From what I got from Nondual' I think this is what he means by his findings, even though I don't agree with the rest, this part he's certainly right about. So it comes to looking at what it's all about. Religios thinkings is as I see it about finding reasons for beliving in religion while science exists for finding out the truth, wheter it suports science or not.

Originally Posted by frosty chaotix

Science and Religion are constantly associated as opposite concepts, while, IMHO, they are absolutely different.

Yeah, they're different, but they are made important by the same human desire: curiosity.

Originally Posted by gratismat

Just curious, does it make sense to you to belive that an apple has falled of a tree many years ago without finding the "evidence" suporting it?

It should have happened before, of course, but that wouldn't make any sense if I lived somewhere where there weren't any apples. Some facts are not my 'own' memories, they're just teachings...but in fact, I can never tell for sure, even after seeing an apple fall of a tree. Soon it'll become past, and I could never see any other apple falling. So my mind becomes confusing, asking whether this event was real, or just my imagination. Even if I write on a paper, "An apple has fallen off a tree in 1990.", it could just be a lie, or rather, just a sentence. There's no undeniable proof.

After all, it's all about what we're convinced to believe. Our senses are the best to do that, since they convince us everytime of what we're doing. That's why we keep considering real, what science/our beliefs tell us to. As I said, I think we just accept all those explanations.

you seem to be associating a bad apple with the entire tree

i could do the same to "science" and say all its all bs, all faith, like your dark matter and dark energy theories, all bullshit, formulas make no sense so there must be invisible stuff there we can not see, "dark" matter, oh yes, it is out there, have faith in science

your big bang theory, this is where we come from, a big bang yes, this was the "beginning", then evolution yes, we can not prove it but have faith in science, we are right, no that is same as bullshit religion, it stops the flow of ideas, it puts the "I" in a box,

in history what they do with scence today, is what they did with religion.... and now they have created a religion called science,

Originally Posted by Frosty Chaotix

It should have happened before, of course, but that wouldn't make any sense if I lived somewhere where there weren't any apples. Some facts are not my 'own' memories, they're just teachings...but in fact, I can never tell for sure, even after seeing an apple fall of a tree. Soon it'll become past, and I could never see any other apple falling. So my mind becomes confusing, asking whether this event was real, or just my imagination. Even if I write on a paper, "An apple has fallen off a tree in 1990.", it could just be a lie, or rather, just a sentence. There's no undeniable proof.

I completely agree, ...or is there a counterargument I've missed somewhere hidden in there?

Originally Posted by Frosty Chaotix

After all, it's all about what we're convinced to believe. Our senses are the best to do that, since they convince us everytime of what we're doing. That's why we keep considering real, what science/our beliefs tell us to. As I said, I think we just accept all those explanations.

Well I would go farther saying that it's our senses who makes up what we see all the time, in a way. However you can't act upon them all the time, belivíng in everything you hear, see and feel... hm... as you seem to have stated before, either you're quoting against yourself or I'm lost. Either way the problem is that by beliving things like religion on no reasonable grounds you make up for an unlivable society, this is where I would wan't to draw the line for science, you see; what good science does is that it only belives in things wich are reasonable and can be validated hence it separates itself from the rest, you see my point?

Originally Posted by Keiju

you seem to be associating a bad apple with the entire tree

i could do the same to "science" and say all its all bs, all faith, like your dark matter and dark energy theories, all bullshit, formulas make no sense so there must be invisible stuff there we can not see, "dark" matter, oh yes, it is out there, have faith in science

your big bang theory, this is where we come from, a big bang yes, this was the "beginning", then evolution yes, we can not prove it but have faith in science, we are right, no that is same as bullshit religion, it stops the flow of ideas, it puts the "I" in a box,

Well, as mentioned before, science is in fact different and it separates itself from the rest by it's goals. The big bang is widely known because of the many reasonable ideas conected with it. However, if a more reasonable idea were to form we would have to adopt it instead.

Originally Posted by Keiju

in history what they do with scence today, is what they did with religion.... and now they have created a religion called science,

I agree that we should be alarmed by science that tries to form as a religion so that we don't limit ourselves, however, in these cases it mostly is about ideologies rather than science, for instance with the "Inteligent Design" hypothesis...

edit: there is also a word for such science I belive, quasi-science?

im trying to say (and many others), the labelling is all bullshit dammit lol

religion is this, science is that, there are only ideas

f=ma is fact? no it is not, only an idea that is close, and one that is proven wrong, same for all, they are not facts, not absolute truths,

most of "science" is useless when it comes to actually developing as a person, all objective observations, completely forgetting the observer

if there was a differene between science and religion, it would be that religion seeks truth through the self, where science tries to find the truth out here, but the truth is in both and has nothing to do with the science and religion labels, TRUE religion is the exploration of the infinite self, the unveiling of the spirit,