Thread: the occult

Originally Posted by Sandform

That is neat. Have you been able to teach people outside of your family (and outside of other families who also do it) to do what you do, or has anyone for that matter?


I only ask because if you actually have a mental disorder...the fact that it is a family tradition only makes it slightly more likely that it is a disorder. I mean, I guess that sounds rude to say, but I have to ask you to try not to think to poorly of this statement, because to be fair from my side of the computer screen and with my past experiences it makes more sense to me that you have a genetic predisposition for mental abnormalities...such as seizures in the occipital lobe and temporal lobes that can cause hallucinations without tremors...

If what your experiencing is actually something outside of your mind, and indicative to the nature that you have ascribed it, that is cool though.

No, I do not teach. Not yet. To be a teacher is to accept responsibility for the one you are teaching in ways some parents don't even accept responsibility for their children in. It is a connection that goes beyond the Tonal existence and has repercussions in ways you can't comprehend.

I'm not ready to make that kind of commitment to anyone or experienced enough to protect myself and my student from their own missteps. However, I have been fortunate enough to have Teachers that were both willing and able to make that commitment and provide that protection for me.

As for the brain thing: I'm quite confident that my brain is just fine. My mother was one of the first registered EEG techinicians in the country and during the infancy of the science, she was involved in the foundational work associated with brain mapping, evoked potential monitoring, epilepsy research, and bio-feedback.

Every time a new procedure was being developed she'd haul me into the lab, glue elcotrodes to my head and run me through the process to get her baseline data. So, as I said, I'm quite confident my "Brain" is fine. No occipital, temporal, or even frontal lobe seizures; no masses (now or then).

That being said, my "mind" may be an entirely different matter....

I'm a bit irritated nobody is willing to share their personal experiences. In all honesty, I'd like a reason to believe in these spirits, but I made a deal with myself not to unless I've got solid evidence. Heck, like you guys said, I should go out and get my own experiences.

http://www.warez-bb.org/viewtopic.php?t=676269 is another site on occult stuff.

i decided to quit downloading these books... its pointless. i'd rather be tought occult stuff in person by someone than by just downloading books over the internet.

Originally Posted by Black_Eagle

I'm a bit irritated nobody is willing to share their personal experiences. In all honesty, I'd like a reason to believe in these spirits, but I made a deal with myself not to unless I've got solid evidence. Heck, like you guys said, I should go out and get my own experiences.

Indeed, I also think if you want to find out this is true or not you should find out by yourself. People, including me and yourself won't believe it anyway until they experience it for themselves.

I starting reading the books of Carlos Castaneda, and I'd love to go on a shaman apprentiship for a few years, but I don't think I'll find shamans here in europe... I'm afraid we ran out a while ago.. we already burned all our witches!

Then look for some druids.

Originally Posted by Black_Eagle

I'm a bit irritated nobody is willing to share their personal experiences. In all honesty, I'd like a reason to believe in these spirits, but I made a deal with myself not to unless I've got solid evidence.

Then you've placed yourself in a catch 22. You won't believe until you experience, but you'll not experience because you don't believe. Because you don't "believe", anything you experience will be reduced to something "explainable" under normal "scientific" processes or disregarded as "impossible." You want some kind of "proof" that will somehow satisfy your scientific reasoning without you putting forth any effort to understand something outside of this normal reality.

Originally Posted by saxonharp

Then you've placed yourself in a catch 22. You won't believe until you experience, but you'll not experience because you don't believe. Because you don't "believe", anything you experience will be reduced to something "explainable" under normal "scientific" processes or disregarded as "impossible." You want some kind of "proof" that will somehow satisfy your scientific reasoning without you putting forth any effort to understand something outside of this normal reality.

Ok, you don't disregard something that is impossible lol. And if it is explainable, and you can explain it, then why should you say it is something more than that?
What your telling him is to not try to explain things, and just think that they are supernatural anyway.

What he is saying is give him some proof that science has it wrong, that supernatural things do exist, and also make it a kind of proof that is real, and not just believing because you can't believe until you believe.

"you'll not experience because you don't believe"

Hey saxon, theres actually a word for your theory! Its called gullible

Originally Posted by Sandform

What he is saying is give him some proof that science has it wrong, that supernatural things do exist, and also make it a kind of proof that is real, and not just believing because you can't believe until you believe.

Why does one have to be "wrong" for the other to be "right"? Science and Spirituality are not mutually exclusive.

For me, the former tells "how" and the latter tells "why." I have no trouble reconciling what Science tells me about the universe and what I have come to know about Spirit.

As for proof, like I said, nothing constitutes proof to someone unwilling to believe. Doesn't matter what it is. For every photograph of a UFO there's a thousand people who will not only say it's fake, but show how it could have been done. Just because it can be done that way, doesn't mean it was and doesn't make THAT particular photograph a fake. Of course, it doesn't mean it wasn't either, but that's the test of faith.

For every apparition of the Virgin Mary, there's a million people who will claim it's just a coinicidental amalgamation of bacterial cells grown on a tortilla. Well, maybe they're right. Or maybe those bacterial cells were made to create an image that made some think of the Virgin Mary by a Universal Power some call God as a means of generating thought around love and compassion?

You see, the physical world is the means by which spiritual things "happen". More specifically, what happens in the spiritual realm is manifested for our experience in the physical realm. You can explain everything in physical terms, but that doesn't preclude the possibility of that simply being a reflection of other things happening in an non-ordinary reality.

If you are open to it, you can experience these things in that non-ordinary reality in the same way you experience them in our ordinary reality.

Lucid4Sh0; You see what you want to see and you see what you allow yourself to be open to see. If you want to call that "gullible" that's certainly your right. I prefer to think of it as being "open minded." And having been open-minded has allowed me to do and perceive things that I was unable to do or perceive before I allowed for the possibility of them existing.

All that being said, our ordinary reality is so full and amazing, there's absolutely nothing wrong with simply commiting your current existance to its exploration. Not everyone needs to look outside it to find fulfillment. Luckily for those of us who do, we have that option.

Peace and Blessings,
Mato Kinze

"If you want to call that "gullible" that's certainly your right. I prefer to think of it as being "open minded.""

Ya you must be really open minded, thats the only way to explain how your brain fell out of your head.

All of this stuff brings into a big topic: religion. Depending on what you believe, spirits may not exist due to reincarnation. They may be in heaven, hell, nirvana, limbo, or whatever you want to call it. If someone actually does die, and they simply stick around to torment people, or on the reverse, aid people, then where is heaven/hell? Why are they around. Who polices such people if anyone? Where is God/Gods/Supreme Universal Power ect in all this? Way too many issues.

Originally Posted by lucid4sho

"If you want to call that "gullible" that's certainly your right. I prefer to think of it as being "open minded.""

Ya you must be really open minded, thats the only way to explain how your brain fell out of your head.

Ah. Very pithy reply indeed. I have been duly "put in my place."

Tell me, is it difficult carrying around such enormous intelect next to so much self-importance? You must be very tired....

Originally Posted by saxonharp

Why does one have to be "wrong" for the other to be "right"? Science and Spirituality are not mutually exclusive.

Science itself is the study of knowledge. Scientific knowledge is also another definition for science, this is the definition I'm using. Science says all things are explainable via description of the physical universe. This is completely contradictory for the spiritual world at the moment. Therefor, one of the two theories must be wrong. Should science be wrong now, it will be changed once it is proven wrong, however at the moment there is no evidence for the spirit that can be confirmed, and if there is, those who are withholding this evidence are sorry people.

As for proof, like I said, nothing constitutes proof to someone unwilling to believe. Doesn't matter what it is. For every photograph of a UFO there's a thousand people who will not only say it's fake, but show how it could have been done. Just because it can be done that way, doesn't mean it was and doesn't make THAT particular photograph a fake. Of course, it doesn't mean it wasn't either, but that's the test of faith.

First lets start with what you mean by fake. Do you mean someone created the photo using mechanisms purposely to falsify what they have and make people believe a lie? Then yeah, people do that all the time. However there is another type of "fake" that we have to include here. What if the person who has the picture, lets call them Bubba Joe, actually believes that what he saw was real, he actually took the photo, but "what" it is isn't what he thinks it is, and people show what it can (and more likely is going to) actually be. Does this mean we should believe him even though more likely truth is out there?

"Test of faith." That is bull shit. I'm not going to believe something just because someone says so. There are things I will accept if they are likely to be true such as if someone tells me, I have a dog named Filly, or a daughter named Sarah. While on the other hand if an 80 year old woman tells me she has a 5 year old daughter, I'm going to have to ask her how that is possible, rather than just accept it. There are ways, so if her response is something logical then I'll accept it. However, "this blip on my picture is a flying space craft holding outerspace dwelling aliens" is not a statement I'm going to accept without hard proof, because it isn't likely to be true.

For every apparition of the Virgin Mary, there's a million people who will claim it's just a coinicidental amalgamation of bacterial cells grown on a tortilla. Well, maybe they're right. Or maybe those bacterial cells were made to create an image that made some think of the Virgin Mary by a Universal Power some call God as a means of generating thought around love and compassion?

This is like the God is existence therefore you are not atheist claim that other people make to me. Just because one person says this is "/insert definition." It doesn't mean I have to accept that this definition is correct.

"Existence is God." (someone else might say) No...Existence is existence, I'm not going to label it God just because you have.

"Virgin Mary was put here by God" Some might say. I might say, that doesn't even look like the virgin mary, and if it was put there by god don't you think it would be better looking? In fact, why not just have god decimate a mountain into a statue in the form of the virgin mary...you know like the statues of liberty around the world?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4034787.stm

You see, the physical world is the means by which spiritual things "happen". More specifically, what happens in the spiritual realm is manifested for our experience in the physical realm. You can explain everything in physical terms, but that doesn't preclude the possibility of that simply being a reflection of other things happening in an non-ordinary reality.

You are correct, it doesn't preclude the possibility of it being spiritual, but it does preclude the idea that we should say it is spiritual.

What you're asking is for me to believe that natural things are actually supernatural with no basis for me to believe this assertion.

If you are open to it, you can experience these things in that non-ordinary reality in the same way you experience them in our ordinary reality.

You can call it spiritual manifestation when odd things happen, I'm going to continue to call it hallucination and misinterpretation. I say that proof of a positive is necessary. For example, the positive in this case is that spiritual things exist. Something that would be proof would be some sort of spiritual thing hanging around doing stuff that isn't explainable via physics. Now, excluding "personal" experiences that can't be verified, nothing like this exists, however if it did exist, then we would be forced into a position where now the positive claim would be that it isn't spiritual, and the proof would be an explanation backed up by evidence that it isn't. (Some say the mind is unexplainable via physics, to which others say where is your proof of this statement, it isn't necessarily "understood" right now, however we do have thecomputational theory of the mind. At the moment is is on the shoulders of BOTH sides to prove that the mind is physical or spiritual.)

Originally Posted by Sandform

What you're asking is for me to believe that natural things are actually supernatural with no basis for me to believe this assertion.

I'm not asking you to believe anything my friend. You may believe whatever you want with no judgement on my part. I'm stating what "I" believe in the best way I can articulate it based on my experiences and my own set of morals and values.

As Voltaire said, "Think for yourselves and allow others to enjoy the priviledge to do so too."

Originally Posted by saxonharp

Ah. Very pithy reply indeed. I have been duly "put in my place."

Tell me, is it difficult carrying around such enormous intelect next to so much self-importance? You must be very tired....

Ya it gets pretty exhausting thanks for your concern

Originally Posted by lucid4sho

Ya it gets pretty exhausting thanks for your concern

You're welcome.

Originally Posted by saxonharp

I'm not asking you to believe anything my friend. You may believe whatever you want with no judgement on my part. I'm stating what "I" believe in the best way I can articulate it based on my experiences and my own set of morals and values.

As Voltaire said, "Think for yourselves and allow others to enjoy the privilege to do so too."

I'm not sure exactly how morals and values come into play with what is existent and what it isn't...but oh well.

Originally Posted by Sandform

I'm not sure exactly how morals and values come into play with what is existent and what it isn't...but oh well.

Is that a question or comment?

Originally Posted by saxonharp

Is that a question or comment?

It is just a comment. If you want to elaborate on what you meant that is cool, if not that is cool too.

Originally Posted by Sandform

It is just a comment. If you want to elaborate on what you meant that is cool, if not that is cool too.

Nah. No point.

To put it simply, there are forces of nature that are attracted to naive, helpless victims who think they can get something for nothing...

So in answer to the Original Poster's question: No.

On second thought, if you really want to learn about occult things, and not just play around 'cause you think you'll have cool powers; read Israel Regardie and Dion Fortune. If your mind is of a level to truly appreciate the subject, you will understand what they are saying. If it's not, then you will be left with the knowledge that it's all out of your league, and your time won't be wasted.

Originally Posted by Lois Lane

To put it simply, there are forces of nature that are attracted to naive, helpless victims who think they can get something for nothing...
So in answer to the Original Poster's question: No.
On second thought, if you really want to learn about occult things, and not just play around 'cause you think you'll have cool powers; read Israel Regardie and Dion Fortune. If your mind is of a level to truly appreciate the subject, you will understand what they are saying. If it's not, then you will be left with the knowledge that it's all out of your league, and your time won't be wasted.

Agreed. I believe in the occult, and I've found that of all the people who ask me about it/want my help with it half just see it as their personal playground. A friend of mine walked blindly into a world of hurt (physical and mental) because he was playing around. The occult is serious business for those who choose to explore it. If you don't subscribe to it that's cool. But if you're going to venture into it, do so respectfully.

You know I think I know what the guy with the bear avatar is saying.(Ignoring the insults for a minute.)Try hinking outside the tiny box that is your head, and be willing to suspened disbelief long enough to judge with an unbiased opinon if this is worth the time it took to type/read it.If it isin't im going to be so mad I typed this long message for nada. And while im at it is anyone actually going to do more than make vague references as to their experiances or are we going to be stuck knowing nothing of this?

Most people probably just played weegie bored or something. I've had experiences, though they seemed real, I don't know if they were, since they were induced by a combination of burning certain herbs and taking a specific combination of uncommon powerful plant hallucinogens, a method copied from some old school necromancy ritual. I'll tell you the method if you wanna try it, the plants are all legal, but its intense, i'll never do it again.