Near-death experiences: Is there a rational explanation

[moonshine]

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-st...t-1657869.html Near-death experiences: Heaven can wait Tunnels, bright lights, visions of the deceased. Do near-death experiences really offer a glimpse of the afterlife – or is there a more rational explanation? Roger Dobson reports When doctors returned to check on the patient who had almost died and been in a deep coma before being resuscitated, he thanked them for all the work they had done. He had, he told the surprised team of medics, been very impressed and had watched everything they had done. He had heard all that had been said, too, and, at one point, had been concerned when resuscitation was about to be abandoned. He then went on to describe in detail the room where he had been treated – although he had never been conscious in there. That near-death experience is one of a number recorded by Dutch doctors and one of thousands of similar cases that have now been documented in a major worldwide study. New research shows that many critically ill kidney dialysis patients have similar experiences, and that almost one in 10 heart-arrest survivors also report near-death experiences whose features include out of body sensations, bright lights, dark tunnels, and images of life events and spiritual entities. But there's no consensus on what lies behind near-death experiences, even though they are being increasingly reported. Are they, as some people are convinced, signs of the soul leaving the body? Or are they, as others suggest, the last, dreamlike act put on by a dying brain? Near-death experiences are surprisingly common. In the latest study, researchers quizzed 710 kidney dialysis patients and found that, out of 70 patients who had suffered a life-threatening event, 45 had gone though a near-death experience. And research by Virginia University shows that 10 per cent of heart-arrest patients, and 1 per cent of other cardiac patients, had reported having a near-death experience. Near-death experiences occur in both sexes, in every culture, and at all ages. Researchers at the University Hospital of Geneva recently reported what they describe as the first case in a child of 12 who had undergone elective, uncomplicated surgery that had run into difficulties. But, in spite of considerable differences in ages, cultures and diseases, many features of near-death experiences are remarkably similar. The spiritual theorists have it that this is the immediate prelude to death itself, and that it establishes that there is life after death. These theories take what the individual sees, hears and feels as being a report of exactly what happened. One suggestion is that, at the time of death, the body and soul separate and near-death experiences are a glimpse of the first part of that process. A range of psychological theories have been put forward to explain the phenomenon. One suggests that it is a defence mechanism in the face of impending death. Another floats the idea that the working of the brain is somehow altered by changes in chemicals that occur shortly before death. Other explanations include false memories, a reaction to acute stress, and anoxia, or lack of oxygen, resulting in sensory disturbances. A newer theory suggests the arousal system is implicated, and that the near-death experience is triggered by the crisis. The idea is that rapid eye movement (or REM sleep, where most dreaming occurs, and where the sleeper is paralysed, with only the heart, diaphragm, eye muscles and the smooth muscles active) is involved. At the root of the theory is the notion that some people are more prone to a condition called REM intrusion, where sleep paralysis occurs when they are awake. It is found in people with narcolepsy, or excessive sleepiness, and it can be accompanied by hallucinations or delusional experiences that are unusually vivid and often frightening. Research led by Dr Kevin Nelson, clinical neurophysiologist and Professor of Neurology at the University of Kentucky shows that, out of 55 people who have had near-death experiences, 60 per cent had at least one prior occasion where REM sleep state intruded into wakefulness, compared to only 24 per cent in a control group. "Instead of passing directly between the REM state and wakefulness, the brain switch in those with a near-death experience is more likely to blend the REM state and wakefulness into one another," he says. Brain regions involved in the REM state are part of the arousal system that regulates different states of consciousness, and are also part of the brain's fight-or-flight survival instinct. The theory, which is gaining support, is that people who have experienced a previous REM-intrusion are more likely to have a near-death experience under circumstances of peril. It has also been shown that stimulating the heart and lung nerve, as occurs during resuscitation, can trigger REM-intrusion. The theory also has explanations for the common characteristics of near-death experience. The impression of being dead, for example, could be a reaction to the paralysis of REM, while the tunnel of light may be linked to changes in blood flow in the retina and visual activation by the REM system. The paranormal and spiritual images may result from the fact that the limbic system, which is older than other parts of the brain and which is involved in behaviour, emotion and long-term memory, is strongly active during REM sleep. Out of body experiences – often reported by people under extreme stress – have also been linked to the arousal system. While it offers explanations for many features of near-death experience, the researchers behind the arousal theory say that it is still work in progress. The problem for them and other researchers looking for more down-to-earth explanations is that they have to find a rationale for their theories, unlike the spiritual theorists who accept everything as reported as evidence of paranormal activity. Little fieldwork has been carried out to prove or disprove the spiritual theory as a whole, although out-of-body experiences have been examined. These experiences often involve the individual looking down from ceiling height at themselves on the operating table, or in a bed. To test whether these are real, some experimenters have placed labels and objects on the top of equipment that could only been seen from the ceiling. So far, no one has been able to spot them. Floating away: An out-of-body experience Thirty-five-year-old Pam Reynolds was being operated on for a potentially fatal rupture when she had a near-death experience. The surgical technique involved stopping her heartbeat and breathing, flattening brainwaves, and draining the blood from her head to remove the aneurysm. "When she was once again able to speak, she reported that she awoke during the early stages of the operation to the sound of the small pneumatic saw that was being used to open her skull," says Dr Christopher French of Goldsmiths, University of London, who recounts the case in a report. "She then felt as if she was being pulled out through the top of her head and, during the subsequent out-of-body experience, she was able to watch the proceedings from above the neurosurgeon's shoulder. Her account accords very well with those of the medical staff present at the time, including her description of the pneumatic saw and the fact that the cardiac surgeon expressed surprise that the blood vessels in her right groin were too small to handle the large flow of blood needed to feed the cardiopulmonary bypass machine. "She reported that, after her heart was stopped and the blood drained from her body, she passed through a black vortex and into a realm of light where she met with deceased relatives. These relatives looked after her, provided her with nourishment, and eventually helped her to return to her physical body. She was able to report the music that was being played in the operating theatre at the point of her return." Although the case is often presented as one that defies all conventional explanations, there are non-spiritual explanations. It is not uncommon, for example, for patients to awaken during operations and be able to recount what was going on, and a low level of brain activity is difficult to detect in an operating theatre.

[moonshine]

The out of body experience described is interesting. As most are aware, external influences can enter and effect a dream. Its not unreasonable to suggest that, despite being unconscious one might be aware that you're in a operating theatre, that your head is being sawn open, and the conversations of those around you. Your brain then generates a scenario which incorporates the same. Why thats pretty much a cousin of the classic False Awakening. Interesting... Whilst spiritualists are often compelled to state that supernatural OBEs are yet to be fully proven/disproven (what might be called hiding in the cracks of science), there does seem to be a growing wealth of evidence of more prosaic and natural reasons for these experiences. So here is the challenge. Are you open minded enough to take this evidence on board?

[juroara]

quite a lot of NDE threads don't you think? couldn't we just merge them? the problem with studying NDE's, is it's an experience. It's someones account, someones story. To study this experience we first have to listen to these stories. You would have to read yourself hundreds of them to get the over all feel for NDEs, and to understand also that there are different kinds of NDEs. Some attempts at explaining away the NDE resort to cookie cutter descriptions of the experience. Ignoring entire sections of the invididuals story. "The impression of being dead, for example, could be a reaction to the paralysis of REM, while the tunnel of light may be linked to changes in blood flow in the retina and visual activation by the REM system." The theory of the tunnel of the light being connected to the retina would make it sound like everyone who sees the tunnel of the light, suddenly finds themself in the tunnel of the light against their will But I've read experiences where the tunnel of light was like a vortex. The vortex was in a stationary position in the room. The invidividual can then circle the room several times before deciding if they wanted to enter the vortex. Others are able to see larger portions of this vortex after they leave it. As if the earth has a worm hole attached to it. The other thing about the tunnel of light, is in some experiences it's both the beginning and the end of the NDE. In the beginning they are flying up the tunnel, in the end they are falling down it. So I don't think the tunnel of light has anything to do with the retina. I think it's too soon to say that REM intrusion is the cause. The most common cause of sleep paralysis is an irregular sleeping pattern. Before you can call REM intrusion a cause you first need to find out why these individuals suffered from sleep paralysis to begin with. How is knowing you are due for a life threatening surgery make you feel? Would you be restless? If they suffered from sleep paralysis for simple and common reasons, such as stress, then they aren't predisposed to experience an NDE more than any other person. What the REM intrusion theory is over looking is that sleep paralysis is well known for its hag, the sensation of pressure, and frightening hallucinations. Been there, done that, lots of times. If the NDE was simply REM intrusion, where is the hag in all of this? There are some connections to sleep paralysis, but not enough. "Although the case is often presented as one that defies all conventional explanations, there are non-spiritual explanations. It is not uncommon, for example, for patients to awaken during operations and be able to recount what was going on, and a low level of brain activity is difficult to detect in an operating theatre." My mom falls asleep watching TV. But she still hears everything, and the TV show becomes a dream in her head! But at no point in her dream does she float over her body. At no point does she fly up a tunnel. At no point in her dream does she go to meet deceased. At no point does she contemplate the meaning of her life. Or is given advice on how to change her life. Or given the meaning of her life. What ever the explanation is going to be given for the NDE, it can't pick and choose what part of the NDE to explain. The NDE is the NDE because of its entirety. You could pick it apart and say, this sounds like sleep paralysis, this sounds like being awake during an operation, this sounds like hallucination, this sounds like dream, and this sounds like meditating. But unless the explanation looks at the entire package, and explains why the NDE has patterns when hallucinations don't, the spiritual community won't be convinced.

[juroara]

I meant to post this yesterday. But my internet was crapping up. Thought I post it here, we don't need to keep starting new NDE threads now do we? Here is a simple study. Keep in mind this study was done in a real hospital, not in a science laboratory. Not everyone lived to tell if they had an experience! Penny Sartori, PhD: Prospective Study A Long-Term Prospective Study to Investigate the Incidence and Phenomenology of Near-Death Experiences in a Welsh Intensive Therapy Unit "The aim of this study was to establish if reductionist arguments of anoxia, hypercarbia or drug administration could explain the NDE. It was attempted to verify the out of body component by placing brightly coloured symbols (which could only be viewed from an out of body perspective) on top of the cardiac monitor at each patient’s bedside." "Each patient interviewed was simply asked ‘Do you have any recollection of anything during the time that you were unconscious?’ " "It was also evident that many patients had reported hallucinations. Twelve of these cases were documented in order to contrast the differences between NDEs and hallucinations. Drugs administered and the blood results taken at the time of the medical emergency were documented and later analysed." "One of the most significant findings of this research was that the closer one comes to death, the more likely it is that a NDE will be reported. The total number of patients who survived ITU (not all of whom came close to death) were compared with cardiac arrest survivors (those who had been clinically dead for a period of time). It was discovered that there was a much higher frequency of NDEs among cardiac arrest survivors. In comparing heart rhythms among cardiac arrest survivors, it was also discovered that the rhythm most prevalent in the NDE group was asystole — a rhythm associated with the highest fatality." "None of the OBErs in this study viewed the hidden symbols placed on the monitors. However, this study has shown that one patient reported a very accurate OBE during a period of unconsciousness." "When contrasted with the control group, who had undergone resuscitation but did not report an OBE, many discrepancies were discovered. Having been asked to re-enact their resuscitation, the control group’s reports were very inaccurate and demonstrated misconceptions and errors between the actual procedures performed, as well as equipment used." "This study has shown that very few NDEs were elicited from the total sample, the majority of whom were given painkilling and sedative drugs. If drugs were the cause of the NDE then a larger percentage of NDEs would be expected. There were also cases in which some experiences similar to NDEs became very confusional once painkilling drugs had been administered. Similarly, a patient was unable to recall an experience he had previously related to his visitors following a further period of sedation in response to a deterioration of his condition." "All patients (except one patient who was suffering from sleep deprivation) who reported hallucinations had been given a combination of large amounts of sedative and painkilling drugs. Comparison of the NDEs and hallucinations reported has highlighted the differences between the two types of experiences. Whereas the NDEs followed a pattern, the hallucinations were very random, bizarre and related to actual occurrences and the actions of members of staff. On follow-up, those who had reported hallucinations could rationalise that they had been hallucinating, whereas NDErs remained adamant that their experience was real." "Further unexplained aspects of the NDE, such as meeting deceased relatives who were not known to be dead at the time of the experience and gaining information in ways other than through the senses, could not be explained by physiological or psychological factors. Having examined all aspects of the NDE, the phenomenon remains unexplained when considered from the current scientific perspective of consciousness being a by-product of neurological processes. This small study has suggested that NDEs occurred during unconsciousness in two of the patients and has contributed to the growing body of research in this area. The fact that clear, lucid experiences were reported during a time when the brain was devoid of activity (Aminoff et al., 1988, Clute and Levy 1990, de Vries et al., 1998), does not sit easily with current scientific belief. Cases in which blood was extracted at the time of the NDE / OBE did not support the anoxia or hypercarbia theories. The drugs administered to the patients appeared to inhibit rather than cause the NDE. It must be noted that the sample is too small to be statistically significant; however, the combination of all data from recent and retrospective research provides a large amount of evidence, which can no longer be ignored or explained away. Current reductionist arguments are not supported when this phenomenon is examined in the clinical area. It is therefore essential that further research is conducted in order to establish a wider explanation of the NDE." The next one is a cross examination of a study. Out-of-Body Experiences: All in the Brain? by Jan Holden, EdD, Jeff Long, MD, and Jason MacLurg, MD "In 2002 an article appeared in the leading scientific journal Nature documenting an induced out of body experience through focal electrical stimulation of the brain's right angular gyrus in a patient who was undergoing evaluation for epilepsy treatment. Access to the original paper is available at the Nature website. This article is a response by three NDE researchers." The Research © 1992 Bhaktivedanta Book Trust Int’l Electrodes Trigger Out-of-body Experience was the provocative title that appeared in the “Science Update” section of Nature magazine’s internet web site on Monday, September 19th (Pearson, 2002). The article’s subtitle was: Stimulating brain region elicits illusion often attributed to the paranormal, and the article began by saying, “Activity in one region of the brain could explain out-of-body experiences. Researchers in Switzerland have triggered the phenomenon using electrodes.” "When the physicians first stimulated this area, the woman “reported that she was ‘sinking into the bed’ or ‘falling from a height.’” When they increased the electricity, she reported, “I see myself lying in bed, from above, but I only see my legs and lower trunk.” The authors reported that, “two further stimulations induced the same sensation, which included an instantaneous feeling of ‘lightness’ and ‘floating’ about two meters above the bed, close to the ceiling.” The physicians then asked the patient to “watch her (real) legs during the electrical stimulation…This time, she reported seeing her legs ‘becoming shorter.’” The physicians went on to explain that if her legs were bent at a 90-degree angle before the stimulation, “she reported that her legs appeared to be moving quickly towards her face, and took evasive action.” The authors continued: “When asked to look at her outstretched arms during the electrical stimulation… the patient felt as though her left arm was shortened; the right arm was unaffected. If both arms were in the same position but bent by 90 degrees at the elbow, she felt that her left lower arm and hand were moving towards her face…When her eyes were shut, she felt that her upper body was moving toward her legs, which were stable.” The authors asserted that “these observations indicate that OBEs…can be artificially induced by electrical stimulation of the cortex,” and they went on to speculate about the mechanisms involved" "But how warranted is their assertion? In particular, the authors imply that their patient’s experience was an OBE, that is, that it (1) fell within the definition of OBEs, and (2) that this patient’s OBE was both representative of, and indistinguishable from, spontaneous OBEs—that it was a typical OBE. How accurate is that dual assumption?" "To begin to address the second assumption—that the Swiss patient’s OBE was typical of spontaneous OBEs—consider the description of a spontaneous OBE by an English patient who “had suffered a displacement of the foot, which had been returned under an anaesthetic” (Green, 1968, p. 123): “Before coming round I saw myself up in a corner of the room and I was looking down upon the hospital bed. The bedclothes were heaped up over a cradle and my legs were exposed from the knees down. “Around the right ankle was a ring of plaster and below the knee was a similar ring. These two rings were joined by a plaster strip [on] each side of [the] leg. I was struck by the pink of my skin against the white plaster. “When I regained consciousness two nurses were standing a foot of bed looking at the operation, one quite young. They at once left the private ward and I managed to raise myself up and look over the cradle seeing again exactly what I had seen when still ‘out.’ “Being a hot day was perhaps why the bedclothes had been pulled away from my legs and were heaped over the cradle. The particular way in which the plaster had been applied was plainly seen from my position in the corner of room and the contrast between pink skin and white plaster was striking." "A comparison of the Swiss and English patients’ OBE accounts reveals these important differences: Swiss Patient’s OBE English Patient’s OBE *Spontaneously reported viewing only part of body (legs and lower trunk) *Spontaneous report implied viewing the entire body *Viewed body areas not involved in health concern and medical procedure (did not report seeing head or brain) *Viewed body area involved in health concern and medical procedure (leg, cast, etc.) *Reported distortion of body image (legs became shorter; arm shorter) *No reported distortion of body image *Reported illusion of bodily movement: legs and arm moving toward face; upper body moving forward *No reported illusion of bodily movement In a nutshell, the English patient’s experience seemed quite realistic, whereas the Swiss patient’s experience was unrealistic— fragmentary, distorted, and illusory." "English patient’s OBE is quite characteristic of OBEs in general, while the Swiss patient’s is highly uncharacteristic." "The absence of body distortion in spontaneous OBEs is substantiated by another one of us (Long), who reviewed hundreds of first-person accounts of spontaneous OBEs and NDEs submitted to his research websites (www.oberf.org and www.nderf.org); none of them included either distortion of body image or illusion of bodily movement." "It is one thing for a physician to electrostimulate the brain and produce a single aspect of an experience – for example, contraction of the triceps muscle, causing a person’s bent arm to straighten out. It is a vastly different thing for that same person to enact the intentional, meaningful, complex task of reaching out to grasp a teacup.....Analogously, electrostimulation of the brain has not yet yielded a typical OBE. To assume that the brain is involved in—or, as we have said throughout this article, is associated with—out-of-body phenomena is one thing; but to imply—with phrases like “the part of the brain that can induce out-of-body experiences” or “OBEs…can be artificially induced by electrical stimulation of the cortex”—that electrostimulation of the brain produces typical OBEs is quite another. The professional near-death literature contains multiple reports of veridical perception of phenomena that were outside the range of the NDEr's sensory perception and, therefore, of brain mediation (Ring & Cooper, 1997; Ring & Lawrence, 1993; Sabom, 1982; Sharp, 1995; van Lommel, van Wees, Meyers, & Elfferich, 2001). In some cases, these perceptions occurred while the NDEr apparently was experiencing the brain inactivity that follows within 10 seconds of cessation of heartbeat (van Lommel et al., 2001). Over 100 such cases are published on www.iands.org, www.nderf.org, and www.oberf.org. Further discussion of veridical perception is presented in the article titled "Does the Arousal System Contribute to Near-Death Experience?: A Response" under review for the Journal of Near-Death Studies. Taken together, the evidence suggests strongly the possibility that near-death OB perception might occur without the mediation of the physical senses or the brain. Therefore, to refer to OBEs in general as "illusions" is premature; science has not yet resolved the question of the accuracy of out-of-body perceptions nor, hence, the "reality" of the sense OBErs report of their consciousnesses functioning independent of their physical bodies. Even if future research convincingly demonstrated that electrical stimulation of a particular area of the brain consistently induced typical OBEs, this finding would not explain veridical perception associated with OBEs. We believe it is inappropriate to conclude "the part of the brain that can induce out-of-body experiences has been located" (Blanke et al., p. 269) based on a single anecdotal observation...." now im off to work!

[moonshine]

We believe it is inappropriate to conclude "the part of the brain that can induce out-of-body experiences has been located" (Blanke et al., p. 269) based on a single anecdotal observation...." Circa 2002 right? Heres a Time article dated 2007. http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...0394-1,00.html In September, a team of Swiss neuroscientists reported that they could turn out-of-body experiences on and off by stimulating the part of the brain in which vision and bodily sensations converge. Science, as always moves on.

[moonshine]

quite a lot of NDE threads don't you think? couldn't we just merge them? Different articles/different issues. Keeps things tidy and navigatible. The theory of the tunnel of the light being connected to the retina would make it sound like everyone who sees the tunnel of the light, suddenly finds themself in the tunnel of the light against their will But I've read experiences where the tunnel of light was like a vortex. The vortex was in a stationary position in the room. The invidividual can then circle the room several times before deciding if they wanted to enter the vortex. Others are able to see larger portions of this vortex after they leave it. As if the earth has a worm hole attached to it. The other thing about the tunnel of light, is in some experiences it's both the beginning and the end of the NDE. In the beginning they are flying up the tunnel, in the end they are falling down it. So I don't think the tunnel of light has anything to do with the retina. Seems to me it’s a mixture of REM type hallucinations and the “white tunnel” effect induced by oxygen deprivation. With hallucinations/dreams the experiences will always differ. I think it's too soon to say that REM intrusion is the cause. The most common cause of sleep paralysis is an irregular sleeping pattern. Before you can call REM intrusion a cause you first need to find out why these individuals suffered from sleep paralysis to begin with. How is knowing you are due for a life threatening surgery make you feel? Would you be restless? If they suffered from sleep paralysis for simple and common reasons, such as stress, then they aren't predisposed to experience an NDE more than any other person. There is a very significant correlation between those who have experienced OBEs in sleep paralysis and those who report OBE/NDEs. It may not be 100% categorical, but it cannot be ignored. What the REM intrusion theory is over looking is that sleep paralysis is well known for its hag, the sensation of pressure, and frightening hallucinations. Been there, done that, lots of times. If the NDE was simply REM intrusion, where is the hag in all of this? There are rational explanations for the Hag. This has been widely discussed in DV. 1)The brain generates imagery appropriate to the physical sensations induced by SP. One common sensation is a crushing sensation in the chest. A feeling like the sufferer is unable to breath. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Nightmare That little gremlin dude ain’t no Hag. But he’s a similar imaginary construct. As to the amorphous figure, I’ve read that the human eyes blind spot is a similar size and shape, and so frequently acts as a trigger for the hallucination. There are some connections to sleep paralysis, but not enough. Says who? This is simply your opinion, not a statement of fact. What ever the explanation is going to be given for the NDE, it can't pick and choose what part of the NDE to explain. The NDE is the NDE because of its entirety. You could pick it apart and say, this sounds like sleep paralysis, this sounds like being awake during an operation, this sounds like hallucination, this sounds like dream, and this sounds like meditating. But unless the explanation looks at the entire package, and explains why the NDE has patterns when hallucinations don't, the spiritual community won't be convinced. What you’re essentially saying is that until there’s a 100% certainty, the spiritualist community will always find room for room manoeuvre (Wriggle room). I suspect you’re 100% right at that. Even if there was a 98% certainty, some will always happily clutch onto that 2%. That is of course the spiritual communities prerogative. But if inclinded to ignore compelling and rational explanations and dismiss the balance of probabilities, they should perhaps be more careful about branding anyone as close-minded. Clearly, that is a door which swings both ways.

[Kuhnada29]

moonshine why are you making so many threads on the same subject?? Are you that desperate to find a rational explanation of all this? lol You can't explain everything man

[moonshine]

Are you that desperate to find a rational explanation of all this? lol Are you that desperate to find a supernatural explanation of all this? lol

[euphoria_]

One word. Dimethyltryptamine.

[ReachingForTheDream]

My mother had a similar experience. She was in the hospital, and she had been put to sleep, and while she was sleeping the nurse came to give her a needle in her wrist. She says that she had woken up while the nurse gave her the needle. She remembers the nurse saying that her pulse was hard to find, and my mother mumbled something. But the nurse says that she made the comment on her pulse, but my mother never woke up.

[moonshine]

My mother had a similar experience. She was in the hospital, and she had been put to sleep, and while she was sleeping the nurse came to give her a needle in her wrist. She says that she had woken up while the nurse gave her the needle. She remembers the nurse saying that her pulse was hard to find, and my mother mumbled something. But the nurse says that she made the comment on her pulse, but my mother never woke up. An interesting point. I had a strange experience coming out of anesthetic after a major op. I now know it to be a FA. The nurses woke me momentatily coming to clean us up. I swear, I was chasing a hamster around and around the bed. I apologised to the nurses for all the fuss when they woke me up fully. I could hardly move, never mind run around. The point being, I think the body can take in vast amounts off info subconsiously, or from momentary awakenings.

[wet_roof113]

The point being, I think the body can take in vast amounts off info subconsiously, or from momentary awakenings. I think this is one of the most common explanations for OBE's and NDE. I find it ridiculous, I mean normally you cannot hear people when you are sleeping, also learning during sleep has been extensively disproved and i believe the list goes on... I agree during light sleep in the morning etc, your dreams can be subject to physical happenings, bu the idea that while drugged, in DEEP sleep you 'body' can somehow perceive the outside world is incredulous at best. Doesn't the conclusion that your body or some part of your mind is subconsciously processing sensory input while you are a sleep indicate something greater at work here? i think, it is pretty much a fact that a 'subconscious' exists, that your mind is working behind the scenes but I don't see why it has to be limited there. At least to me, it's seems like a rather small jump to make from having from subconsciousness to soul. Perhaps every-night when we sleep we 'leave our bodies in our soul' but consciously we do not remember? the memories remained locked away in our subconscious?

[InvisibleMan]

Dmethyltryptamine, or DMT, is active in near death moments. DMT is a chem in your pineal gland. Very psychedelic and mysterious. Read up on it, be amazed.

[moonshine]

I think this is one of the most common explanations for OBE's and NDE. I find it ridiculous, I mean normally you cannot hear people when you are sleeping Clearly you've never had your morning alarm incorporated into your dream. But many have experienced similar. Not so ridiculous really. And I bet you think you can't see whilst dreaming either? (cough - novadreamer) also learning during sleep has been extensively disproved and i believe the list goes on... Eh? I agree during light sleep in the morning etc, your dreams can be subject to physical happenings, bu the idea that while drugged, in DEEP sleep you 'body' can somehow perceive the outside world is incredulous at best. Although, as we know, the outside world can impact on your dreams. Doesn't the conclusion that your body or some part of your mind is subconsciously processing sensory input while you are a sleep indicate something greater at work here? Though you said the whole Idea was preposterous? i think, it is pretty much a fact that a 'subconscious' exists, that your mind is working behind the scenes but I don't see why it has to be limited there. At least to me, it's seems like a rather small jump to make from having from subconsciousness to soul. The soul. A religious conceptual construct which conveniently can neither be proved nor disproven. "Faith". For me, this is too much of a leap. Perhaps every-night when we sleep we 'leave our bodies in our soul' but consciously we do not remember? the memories remained locked away in our subconscious? And perhaps not.

[Xetrov]

An interesting quite recent interview on the topic of this thread with Dr. Sam Parnia can be found here: http://www.peoplespharmacy.com/2009/...nded-interv-28 I would like to comment on this interview with a quote: Science, as always moves on. No pun intended, moonshine . And yeah, before you react, I know that nothing is proven as yet, and the DV forum might well forget about this research if results are "negative". It's just an interesting interview.

[moonshine]

An interesting quite recent interview on the topic of this thread with Dr. Sam Parnia can be found here: http://www.peoplespharmacy.com/2009/...nded-interv-28 I would like to comment on this interview with a quote: No pun intended, moonshine . And yeah, before you react, I know that nothing is proven as yet, and the DV forum might well forget about this research if results are "negative". It's just an interesting interview. I've got no problem with the research itself. In science, proving what something isn't can be as much value as proving what it is. If it did however uncover something astonishing, well I'd have to reevaluate my beliefs (or at least rebalance the probabilities). And if it takes us another step towards understanding the full physiological picture of consiousness, even better.

[Xetrov]

I've got no problem with the research itself. In science, proving what something isn't can be as much value as proving what it is. If it did however uncover something astonishing, well I'd have to reevaluate my beliefs (or at least rebalance the probabilities). And if it takes us another step towards understanding the full physiological picture of consiousness, even better. Exactly my opinion too. Too bad it will take a while before any results will come.

[LucidFlanders]

An interesting quite recent interview on the topic of this thread with Dr. Sam Parnia can be found here: http://www.peoplespharmacy.com/2009/...nded-interv-28 I would like to comment on this interview with a quote: No pun intended, moonshine . And yeah, before you react, I know that nothing is proven as yet, and the DV forum might well forget about this research if results are "negative". It's just an interesting interview. While there is a chance there can be wrong things, i just can't see it.I know of the 15000 cardiest arrest patients there will be an overwhelming number f people expieriencing these if they live, but there will be an overwhelming number who will give false accounts because it could possibly be just a very small percentage that are right, and the fact there have been quite a few people who got so accurate, it's kind of hard to believe that all of them will be wrong. I'll remain neutral on this just because there have been accounts of real time accuracy which cannot be denied.

[Metaphyz1k]

Dr. Rick Strassman suggests in his revolutionary book DMT: The Spirit Molecule that the stress level during near death is so immense that it triggers a massive release of DMT (dimethyltryptamine) from the pineal gland, which quickly finds its way to the brain. This molecule naturally occurs in all of us and is psychedelic in large quantities. Strassman administered DMT to volunteers during his experiments and found that if you compared the stories of volunteers who experienced a near death esque trip to those who have actually experienced near death, no difference can be discerned. No one knows exactly why DMT exists in all of us or what specific purpose it may serve, but it's really a remarkable substance.

[DeadDollKitty]

I've had a near death experience. I was at my friends bday party, a pool party at some strange indoor pool place and i was sitting on a floaty and we were joking and laughing and this asshole pushed me into the deep end while i was laughing, and i didnt have time to breath so i just died... literally. I saw myself dying. It was like my soul went out of my body through my back and i watched myself die. Somehow though, I saw the pole the lifeguard stuck in the water and made my body reach for it. I guess she pulled me out b/c i dont remember much after that. Except that the kid who pushed me wasnt allowed to swim for a half hour... so much for punishment....

[Xetrov]

Strassman administered DMT to volunteers during his experiments and found that if you compared the stories of volunteers who experienced a near death esque trip to those who have actually experienced near death, no difference can be discerned. Comparing "stories" has only limited use. There are still a lot of big differences between tripping on DMT and having a NDE. For example, the trip is 100% sure happening in your active brain, whereas during NDE there is often no brain activity at all. Quite a large and significant difference, I think. Also, there have been a lot of people having NDE accurately reporting on their environment while being under surgery, etc (during all of this, no brain activity). Whatever lies behind this, science still has to figure it out, but it can't be just a release of DMT in the brain (although it might be part of it).

[moonshine]

I'd have to add that "science still has to figure it out" fully. Whilst there is no complete consensus, a number of the basic building blocks are in place. All of which point to it being a part of human biology rather than Spirit.

[LucidFlanders]

Comparing "stories" has only limited use. There are still a lot of big differences between tripping on DMT and having a NDE. For example, the trip is 100% sure happening in your active brain, whereas during NDE there is often no brain activity at all. Quite a large and significant difference, I think. Also, there have been a lot of people having NDE accurately reporting on their environment while being under surgery, etc (during all of this, no brain activity). Whatever lies behind this, science still has to figure it out, but it can't be just a release of DMT in the brain (although it might be part of it). Some can be explained. Was the person conscious before the surgery took place in the room? perhaps they took a quick glance at what was being used before going to sleep. Are the people asleep before they enter the room, so they can't possibly know what was being used on them unless they did research prior to what was going to happen and know what the tools were/looked like.

[InvisibleMan]

No one knows exactly why DMT exists in all of us or what specific purpose it may serve, but it's really a remarkable substance. Amen.

[Metaphyz1k]

Comparing "stories" has only limited use. There are still a lot of big differences between tripping on DMT and having a NDE. For example, the trip is 100% sure happening in your active brain, whereas during NDE there is often no brain activity at all. Quite a large and significant difference, I think. Also, there have been a lot of people having NDE accurately reporting on their environment while being under surgery, etc (during all of this, no brain activity). Whatever lies behind this, science still has to figure it out, but it can't be just a release of DMT in the brain (although it might be part of it). It is possible that consciousness exists seperately from the brain and resides within the mind. Therefore, monitoring brain activity wouldn't reveal much about what the near dying were actually experiencing. Also, the pineal gland, which is supposedly quite active during near death releasing the DMT is not technically part of the brain, although it is located near it. Furthermore, Dr. Strassman performed some EEG tests on volunteers under the influence of exogenous (outside) DMT and there was not a lot of striking data that would suggest brain activity was significantly altered, although it was certain that the volunteers' minds were undergoing something truly profound.