Thread: Scientists proves Near Death Experiences same as WILD transitions.

Originally Posted by LucidFlanders

So we should take their word for it because they say it? there is nothing to even back this up. Dreaming is all in your head. We don't yet understand WHY we dream, why it's important for 8 hours a day, but it's all from your head. You don't go anywhere.

why take their word for it?

who said you had to believe in anything?

the point that I am making is, if you are going to make an argument against something, you first need to understand that which you are arguing against

if you are going to argue against the NDE as a spiritual experience, then you first need to freshen yourself up on the most advanced spiritual understandings of the NDE, and all that is involved in it.

for example...heaven is NOT a place. nor do you have to go any 'where' for an experience to be out of body.

all too often do skeptics try to use science to disprove spirituality. but science has yet to disprove spirituality because spiritual people do not deny science, but see it as how the physical nature of reality works. and how the physical nature of reality works with the spiritual nature.

to suggest that understanding how something works physically as meaning there is no longer a spiritual side to it, isn't an argument. its just a lack of understanding of what spirituality is. the spiritual person would just say "this is the how the physical nature works with the spiritual nature"

it needs to be understood that researchers who do believe in NDEs as a genuine spiritual experience are already expecting from science some sort of brain activity to be involved. both before and after.

so what ever that brain activity is, its not against the spiritual understanding of the NDE

what I would like to know is, why are there people absolutely against the spiritual understanding of the NDE? why do they work so hard to disprove that anything meaningful is taking place?

what are they afraid of?

Originally Posted by juroara

why take their word for it?

who said you had to believe in anything?

the point that I am making is, if you are going to make an argument against something, you first need to understand that which you are arguing against

if you are going to argue against the NDE as a spiritual experience, then you first need to freshen yourself up on the most advanced spiritual understandings of the NDE, and all that is involved in it.

for example...heaven is NOT a place. nor do you have to go any 'where' for an experience to be out of body.

all too often do skeptics try to use science to disprove spirituality. but science has yet to disprove spirituality because spiritual people do not deny science, but see it as how the physical nature of reality works. and how the physical nature of reality works with the spiritual nature.

to suggest that understanding how something works physically as meaning there is no longer a spiritual side to it, isn't an argument. its just a lack of understanding of what spirituality is. the spiritual person would just say "this is the how the physical nature works with the spiritual nature"

it needs to be understood that researchers who do believe in NDEs as a genuine spiritual experience are already expecting from science some sort of brain activity to be involved. both before and after.

so what ever that brain activity is, its not against the spiritual understanding of the NDE

what I would like to know is, why are there people absolutely against the spiritual understanding of the NDE? why do they work so hard to disprove that anything meaningful is taking place?

what are they afraid of?

We are all trapped in our brain. Figuring out how the brain works has MUCH more evidence then a soul existing, which has zero evidence. People love to label things they cannot explain, it's happened since the beginning of time for humans. While OBE's have happened in real time, and have got proven, but that does not mean a soul exists, it's just another thing we do not understand. I also don't get how anyone can rule out a brain, when the brain makes the exact same things you expierience when you OBE. It's all brain processes, which means how can anyone even think a soul exists 100%? science is not evil like people may think, and it's not there to tell you what you believe in is false, it's our only truth to things.

I am not arrogant enough to say souls do not exist 100%, because that's just silly and close minded, but when looking at the brain, and how it functions, how can people simply wash the brain evidence away? the exact same functions the brain produces are the same functions that create these things. It's all right there in a shiney package. I WANT a soul to exist more then anything, i have deceased pets i would trade my life for just to see them again, but i just can't deny the possibility that this can all be the brain at work, the evidence is pretty strong. The functions, the visions, the moving into the light...it all fits with how the brain works under pressure. I don't even think there is a way at all to prove a heaven exists, not even proving OBE's can be/are real, because we have no idea what it would be....an awarensss outside of the brain can simply be a part that we got over billions of years evolving, being able to put our awareness outside of the brain.

Originally Posted by juroara

to suggest that understanding how something works physically as meaning there is no longer a spiritual side to it, isn't an argument. its just a lack of understanding of what spirituality is. the spiritual person would just say "this is the how the physical nature works with the spiritual nature"



what are they afraid of?

exxxxactly

Moonshine, You and I have had quite a few discussions on this subject - and its good to get other peoples point of view - because it makes you think about what you really believe or actually know for sure.

Since our last dicussions I have been reading up on OBE's and I must say my view-point on the difference between OBE's and WILDs have changed quite a bit. I think you may be right that they are somewhat the same - BUT almost every new theory on OBE, well actually since Robert Monroe in the 60'ies wrote "Journeys out of the body", there have been a new understanding of the "phenomenon"

Generally the understanding is the "OUT" of body is wrong - you don't leave your body in the classic understanding, but you shift consciousnes to another dimension. Some people like W. Buhlman calls it "innerbody-experiences" You actually go inwards. It is possible to go to a dimension very close to the "real-time-zone" but you might just as well go to other more or less thought-responsive realities.

So where is the difference between "OBE" and WILDs? Maybe there really aren't that much? The fun part of this discussion is that maybe, just maybe the author of this thread is actually quite good at obtaining OBE's but don't acknowledge them as such - and thats exactly why it won't be anything else than a dream to you. I think that you could get so much more out of your WILDs if you actually considered that they might be visits to another dimension, maybe visits to very thought-responsive dimensions but nonetheles other dimensions...

How can science tell the diffence? Maybe the day it starts to see things in a bigger picture and stops trying to explain everything with little-picture-science.

This is what i BELIEVE. I'm trying to get more subjective evidence on the matter, but at the moment I'm not quite adapt enough to get OBE's/Wilds.

On the other hand I've read more than 6000 pages of theories based on the authors subjective experiences and objective statistical evidence that tells me that there is so much more to life, than life - and that science really can't explain things by using little picture science. To science everything is matter and trying to understand "nonphysical" with "physical" isn't going to give any results.

Another example on the problems of todays science is the search for planets with just the same atmosphere and conditions as earth - this is the only possible way for science to acknowledge the existence of other beings in the universe. To me thats pretty arrogant... I'm not saying there is other life than human, in our universe, but maybe there is life in other dimensions?

Moonshine if you consider yourself an openminded skeptical, then you could do alot worse than to read the book "My Big Toe" By Thomas Campbell or maybe a book by William Buhlman. They are cutting edge on the subject if you ask me and takes a Big picture perspective on things.

Thanks again for taking time to discuss this very interesting subject, Moonshine.