Scientists proves Near Death Experiences same as WILD transitions.

[moonshine]

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0305202657.htm ScienceDaily (Mar. 6, 2007) — Having an out-of-body experience may seem far-fetched to some, but for those with arousal system disturbances in their brains, it may not be a far off idea that they could sense they were really outside their own body watching themselves. In previous studies of more than 13,000 Europeans, almost 6 percent said they have had such an out-of-body experience. Dr. Kevin Nelson and a research team at the University of Kentucky have studied the link between out-of-body experiences, the sleep-wake transition and near death experiences, and published their findings today in the March 6 issue of the journal Neurology in their case report, "Out-of-body experience and arousal." The results are intriguing, and show that some people's brains already may be predisposed to these sorts of experiences. They found that an out-of-body experience is statistically as likely to occur during a near death experience as it is to occur during the transition between wakefulness and sleep. Nelson suggests that phenomena in the brain's arousal system, which regulates different states of consciousness including REM sleep and wakefulness, may be the cause for these types of out-of-body displays. "We found it surprising that out-of-body experience with sleep transition seemed very much like out-of-body experience during near death," Nelson said. For their study, the team conducted structured interviews with 55 people who have had a near death experience. They found those who had an out-of-body experience along with near death were more likely to also have had some sort of REM intrusion in their lifetime, where instead of passing directly between the REM sleep state and wakefulness, the brain switch blends these states into one another. To survey out-of-body experiences that occurred during sleep transition, patients were asked, "Just before falling asleep or just after awakening, have you had the sense that you are outside of your body and watching yourself?" A similar question was posed to survey out-of-body experiences during near death, which asked subjects if during their experience they had "clearly left the body and existed outside it." Because the arousal system controls or influences sleep-wake states, alertness and attention, Nelson and the research team questioned whether people with near death experiences may already have an arousal system predisposed to allowing intrusion of REM sleep elements during the transition between wakefulness and sleep. Sleep paralysis is a common form of REM intrusion, which can cause a condition of temporary paralysis along with visual or auditory hallucinations immediately after waking up or before falling asleep due to an ill-timed disconnection between the brain and the body. Although it was once considered very rare, about 25 percent of all people have probably experienced sleep paralysis sometime during their life. During a medical crisis, Nelson said muscle paralysis combined with an out-of-body experience could show many of the same prominent features of a near death experience. Near death experiences are responses to a life-threatening crisis, and are characterized by a combination of disassociation from the physical body, euphoria and transcendental or mystical elements. This investigation supports the notion of out-of-body experiences as an expression of arousal in near death experiences and sleep paralysis. Almost all of the near death subjects having sleep paralysis, 96 percent, also had an out-of-body experience either during sleep transition or near death. "The strong association of sleep paralysis with out-of-body experiences in the near death experience subject is curious and unexplained," Nelson said. "However, persons with near death experiences appear to have an arousal system predisposed to both REM intrusion and out-of-body experiences." Another clue as to the true nature of OBE's?

[Desert Claw]

paralysis, hallucinations, yup, sounds like WILD to me. whats this about arousal and its relation to OBEs? haven't heard that one before...

[Xetrov]

This is an interesting article. But you state it is proven to be the same, whereas the researchers only found that people who reported NDE's also tend to more often have had SP and OBE's from sleep. As the researchers themselves also say, "The strong association of sleep paralysis with out-of-body experiences in the near death experience subject is curious and unexplained". Also note the title of the research "Out-of-body Experiences May Be Caused By Arousal System Disturbances In Brain" Did you notice "May be"? This means, it is still unexplained, which means, unlike you claim, nothing is proven as yet. Besides this, there remains the fact that some NDE-ers have had accurate vivid experiences while they had no brain activity at all, and the researchers did not say anything about this, because all they did is interview people and compared experiences. Similarities between experiences doesnt prove they are the same. They found that an out-of-body experience is statistically as likely to occur during a near death experience as it is to occur during the transition between wakefulness and sleep. This means, during an NDE, there is the same chance on an out-of-body experience as during this sleep transition, but again it doesnt nececarrily mean that they are the same.

[moonshine]

I'm sorry, but you're dismissing this because someones used the term "may be" when explaining a theory. Thats a bit tenuous. How does the fact that they admit that they are constructing a theory based on the salient evidence negate that same evidence. Sigh. And some people call skeptics close-minded. Yeah. Sure, the 96% correlation proves nothing.

[juroara]

this doesn't prove or disprove anything dreaming is considered an out of body experience by many. saying that the transition of the NDE and dreaming is the same, doesn't prove that NDE's aren't real. the research would actually work for both sides of the argument

[LucidFlanders]

dreaming is considered an out of body experience by many. saying that the transition of the NDE and dreaming is the same, doesn't prove that NDE's aren't real. So we should take their word for it because they say it? there is nothing to even back this up. Dreaming is all in your head. We don't yet understand WHY we dream, why it's important for 8 hours a day, but it's all from your head. You don't go anywhere.

[LucidFlanders]

I'm sorry, but you're dismissing this because someones used the term "may be" when explaining a theory. Thats a bit tenuous. How does the fact that they admit that they are constructing a theory based on the salient evidence negate that same evidence. Sigh. And some people call skeptics close-minded. Yeah. Sure, the 96% correlation proves nothing. I think because "proves" and "may be" are in the same sentence.

[juroara]

So we should take their word for it because they say it? there is nothing to even back this up. Dreaming is all in your head. We don't yet understand WHY we dream, why it's important for 8 hours a day, but it's all from your head. You don't go anywhere. why take their word for it? who said you had to believe in anything? the point that I am making is, if you are going to make an argument against something, you first need to understand that which you are arguing against if you are going to argue against the NDE as a spiritual experience, then you first need to freshen yourself up on the most advanced spiritual understandings of the NDE, and all that is involved in it. for example...heaven is NOT a place. nor do you have to go any 'where' for an experience to be out of body. all too often do skeptics try to use science to disprove spirituality. but science has yet to disprove spirituality because spiritual people do not deny science, but see it as how the physical nature of reality works. and how the physical nature of reality works with the spiritual nature. to suggest that understanding how something works physically as meaning there is no longer a spiritual side to it, isn't an argument. its just a lack of understanding of what spirituality is. the spiritual person would just say "this is the how the physical nature works with the spiritual nature" it needs to be understood that researchers who do believe in NDEs as a genuine spiritual experience are already expecting from science some sort of brain activity to be involved. both before and after. so what ever that brain activity is, its not against the spiritual understanding of the NDE what I would like to know is, why are there people absolutely against the spiritual understanding of the NDE? why do they work so hard to disprove that anything meaningful is taking place? what are they afraid of?

[Xetrov]

I'm sorry, but you're dismissing this because someones used the term "may be" when explaining a theory. Thats a bit tenuous. How does the fact that they admit that they are constructing a theory based on the salient evidence negate that same evidence. Sigh. And some people call skeptics close-minded. Yeah. Sure, the 96% correlation proves nothing. You call me close minded? To you, an alternative explanation to NDE's is just 100% not possible because your mind is set on the very fact that it isnt. Tell me that you are open minded enough to admit that there might be a possible alternative explanation to NDE's, like an open minded individual would. And Im not saying the explanation must be some mumbo jumbo unexplainable crap, just that current science might not have found it yet, and more research might be needed to get to the bottom of it. Also, I did not say I am dismissing this whole paper, nor their evidencde. I am just pointing out that the correlation they found by interviewing a few people who had NDE's does not prove anything and they even admit it themselves by saying that it is "curious and unexplained". For sure they build a possible theory ("may be") on their research, but it leaves a lot of possibilities open. Sure, maybe NDE's are the same as OBE's, and sure, maybe they can be explained by reducing it all to brain functions. I have not denied that have I? I just said that this seems unlikely since (and I repeat) there have been NDE's where people have had lucid experiences while their brain was fully non-functional. How does that fit into the picture then? It seems that everything is pretty much still open, and we will have to await further studies to be sure. One more thing, it is not needed to make your point stronger by expressing tiredness ("sigh") over the fact that there are some people willing to argue on your post. If you do not wish to debate, please state so and I will leave you alone. If you do wish to debate, expect some counter arguments to arise. If our discussion only arouses your frustration, maybe we should just leave it at that, which is fine for me.

[LucidFlanders]

why take their word for it? who said you had to believe in anything? the point that I am making is, if you are going to make an argument against something, you first need to understand that which you are arguing against if you are going to argue against the NDE as a spiritual experience, then you first need to freshen yourself up on the most advanced spiritual understandings of the NDE, and all that is involved in it. for example...heaven is NOT a place. nor do you have to go any 'where' for an experience to be out of body. all too often do skeptics try to use science to disprove spirituality. but science has yet to disprove spirituality because spiritual people do not deny science, but see it as how the physical nature of reality works. and how the physical nature of reality works with the spiritual nature. to suggest that understanding how something works physically as meaning there is no longer a spiritual side to it, isn't an argument. its just a lack of understanding of what spirituality is. the spiritual person would just say "this is the how the physical nature works with the spiritual nature" it needs to be understood that researchers who do believe in NDEs as a genuine spiritual experience are already expecting from science some sort of brain activity to be involved. both before and after. so what ever that brain activity is, its not against the spiritual understanding of the NDE what I would like to know is, why are there people absolutely against the spiritual understanding of the NDE? why do they work so hard to disprove that anything meaningful is taking place? what are they afraid of? We are all trapped in our brain. Figuring out how the brain works has MUCH more evidence then a soul existing, which has zero evidence. People love to label things they cannot explain, it's happened since the beginning of time for humans. While OBE's have happened in real time, and have got proven, but that does not mean a soul exists, it's just another thing we do not understand. I also don't get how anyone can rule out a brain, when the brain makes the exact same things you expierience when you OBE. It's all brain processes, which means how can anyone even think a soul exists 100%? science is not evil like people may think, and it's not there to tell you what you believe in is false, it's our only truth to things. I am not arrogant enough to say souls do not exist 100%, because that's just silly and close minded, but when looking at the brain, and how it functions, how can people simply wash the brain evidence away? the exact same functions the brain produces are the same functions that create these things. It's all right there in a shiney package. I WANT a soul to exist more then anything, i have deceased pets i would trade my life for just to see them again, but i just can't deny the possibility that this can all be the brain at work, the evidence is pretty strong. The functions, the visions, the moving into the light...it all fits with how the brain works under pressure. I don't even think there is a way at all to prove a heaven exists, not even proving OBE's can be/are real, because we have no idea what it would be....an awarensss outside of the brain can simply be a part that we got over billions of years evolving, being able to put our awareness outside of the brain.

[moonshine]

this doesn't prove or disprove anything Conclusively. Probably not. But that doesn't make supernatural OBE's a 50:50 proposition. The correlation is compelling and there is a very high probability that they are indeed associated. Hiding in the tiny margin of doubt, well I'd say that was disingenious and close-minded.

[DeathCell]

Sigh their is no margin for some people, they have their own answers and if you don't believe them you are automatically wrong.

[moonshine]

Sigh there is simply no balance of probability for some people, they have their own answers and even if there is compelling evidence supporting you, you are automatically wrong.

[LucidFlanders]

Sign there is simply no balance of probability for some people, they have their own answers and even if there is compelling evidence supporting you, you are automatically wrong. There is not much evidence. It's just brain processes, and a bunch of wild speculation on people thinking they understand the brain to the point this is moot. The only thing there is are what happens, but it can easily be part of something that is supposed to happen. Nobody understands consciousness, or how it works so only a fool believes this has all been proven.

[moonshine]

There is not much evidence. It's just brain processes, and a bunch of wild speculation on people thinking they understand the brain to the point this is moot. The only thing there is are what happens, but it can easily be part of something that is supposed to happen. Nobody understands consciousness, or how it works so only a fool believes this has all been proven. No. Thats like saying theres not much evidence for evolution apart from a couple of scientists opinions (and of course there are mentalists who claim exactly that - sigh). Scientist have and are investigation consiousness. Its so fundamental to the human condition, how could they not. During this process a wealth of data and evidence has been ammassed. It may not be the complete picture, but it is a significant part of it. It most certainly isn't "wild speculation." Only a fool would simply dismiss what is know because it it inconvenient. There is most certainly significantly more factual evidence supporting the scientific theories that the Spiritual. Open your mind Lucid!

[ChaybaChayba]

5000 years ago people already knew WILDing was the same as the death experience. (check my thread on the 5000 year old WILD technique). As a matter of fact, the original purpose of lucid dreaming and dream yoga was to master the WILD transition in order to master the death transition, because they believed it was the same. I never believed that this was actually true as I really failed to see the connection between death and WILDing, but apparently, they are related afterall somehow... This is a really interesting find, thanks for sharing moonshine!

[DeathCell]

I'm right and your wrong! ..

[Xetrov]

During this process a wealth of data and evidence has been ammassed. It may not be the complete picture, but it is a significant part of it. It most certainly isn't "wild speculation." Only a fool would simply dismiss what is know because it it inconvenient. There is most certainly significantly more factual evidence supporting the scientific theories that the Spiritual. You are correct in that science is investigating the phonomenon of consciousness and has made some significant progress, but fact remains that no final theory of consciousness exists and that science does not yet understand how consciousness is generated, if it is generated at all in the first place. I´d also like to add that with this argument, I am not saying at all that we should decent into gibberish nonsensical "spiritual" theories that have no basis in reality, just that there is no definite word on it as yet. It means that with more research, science might very well figure out what´s going on. Even if, theoretically, consciousness would be an independant property, science can deal with this. So please dont automatically assume that when people challenge current scientific insights on a topic, this means they adhere to medieval witchcraft and/or other crappy nonsense (and I know, some do, but just saying, not everyone is like that).

[Xetrov]

5000 years ago people already knew WILDing was the same as the death experience. (check my thread on the 5000 year old WILD technique). As a matter of fact, the original purpose of lucid dreaming and dream yoga was to master the WILD transition in order to master the death transition, because they believed it was the same. I never believed that this was actually true as I really failed to see the connection between death and WILDing, but apparently, they are related afterall somehow... This is a really interesting find, thanks for sharing moonshine! Actually, they did not say that death and WILD is the same thing, only that they are both transition processes and that experiencing WILD can prepare you to make the transition from life to death more easy and consciously.

[LucidFlanders]

No. Thats like saying theres not much evidence for evolution apart from a couple of scientists opinions (and of course there are mentalists who claim exactly that - sigh). Scientist have and are investigation consiousness. Its so fundamental to the human condition, how could they not. During this process a wealth of data and evidence has been ammassed. It may not be the complete picture, but it is a significant part of it. It most certainly isn't "wild speculation." Only a fool would simply dismiss what is know because it it inconvenient. There is most certainly significantly more factual evidence supporting the scientific theories that the Spiritual. Open your mind Lucid! Open my mind? you're the one in here at these threads saying this is all proven by science, which is false. I did not say there is no evidence, i said there was not much evidence. There is no overwhelming evidence to jump to any side. There is a little evidence on the non science side, and a little more on the science side. Atleast brain process evidence. I already know evolution is real, so i am not going down that road. I'm ignorant on this issue, i don't really know it's real or proven, i just believe it's real. Anyway i am just going to observe BD for a little while, this topic was intresting for a week or so. So don't think i am getting silenced, i've just kind of lost intrest.

[moonshine]

Open my mind? you're the one in here at these threads saying this is all proven by science, which is false. I did not say there is no evidence, i said there was not much evidence. There is no overwhelming evidence to jump to any side. There is a little evidence on the non science side, and a little more on the science side. Atleast brain process evidence. Wrong. I've stated a number of times that its not fully understood by science. But there has been significant progress. You're opinion is that there is "not much evidence". This is utterly incorrect. Significant steps have been taken. Scientists have not simple ignored these issues, leaving it to spiritualists etc. Descriptions of NDES are too common to ignore. So they have been actively searching for explanations. They have completed signigicant research into possible spiritual explanations too. And unquestionably, the evidence points to NDEs being a part of natural physiology. This is significant. Most importantly, the explanations make sense. The justifications are sound. On the flipside, DB makes no sense unless you unquestionally accept the notion of a transferable mobile soul. There is no evidence for this. It does, when you get right down to it, become a question of "faith". In your own words, despite there being evidence for scientific explanations, and no evidence for spiritual explanations, you chose to believe the spiritual explanation. You may wish to ignore the evolution comparison, but it is utterly appropriate.

[Dannon Oneironaut]

It is both material and non-material. There is no conflict or competition. Just like love is chemistry and real emotion. Just like music is technique and feeling. Science is how, spirit is why. How does music work: science. Why do we like music: spirit.

[Bosco]

to suggest that understanding how something works physically as meaning there is no longer a spiritual side to it, isn't an argument. its just a lack of understanding of what spirituality is. the spiritual person would just say "this is the how the physical nature works with the spiritual nature" what are they afraid of? exxxxactly

[TJuulsgaard]

Moonshine, You and I have had quite a few discussions on this subject - and its good to get other peoples point of view - because it makes you think about what you really believe or actually know for sure. Since our last dicussions I have been reading up on OBE's and I must say my view-point on the difference between OBE's and WILDs have changed quite a bit. I think you may be right that they are somewhat the same - BUT almost every new theory on OBE, well actually since Robert Monroe in the 60'ies wrote "Journeys out of the body", there have been a new understanding of the "phenomenon" Generally the understanding is the "OUT" of body is wrong - you don't leave your body in the classic understanding, but you shift consciousnes to another dimension. Some people like W. Buhlman calls it "innerbody-experiences" You actually go inwards. It is possible to go to a dimension very close to the "real-time-zone" but you might just as well go to other more or less thought-responsive realities. So where is the difference between "OBE" and WILDs? Maybe there really aren't that much? The fun part of this discussion is that maybe, just maybe the author of this thread is actually quite good at obtaining OBE's but don't acknowledge them as such - and thats exactly why it won't be anything else than a dream to you. I think that you could get so much more out of your WILDs if you actually considered that they might be visits to another dimension, maybe visits to very thought-responsive dimensions but nonetheles other dimensions... How can science tell the diffence? Maybe the day it starts to see things in a bigger picture and stops trying to explain everything with little-picture-science. This is what i BELIEVE. I'm trying to get more subjective evidence on the matter, but at the moment I'm not quite adapt enough to get OBE's/Wilds. On the other hand I've read more than 6000 pages of theories based on the authors subjective experiences and objective statistical evidence that tells me that there is so much more to life, than life - and that science really can't explain things by using little picture science. To science everything is matter and trying to understand "nonphysical" with "physical" isn't going to give any results. Another example on the problems of todays science is the search for planets with just the same atmosphere and conditions as earth - this is the only possible way for science to acknowledge the existence of other beings in the universe. To me thats pretty arrogant... I'm not saying there is other life than human, in our universe, but maybe there is life in other dimensions? Moonshine if you consider yourself an openminded skeptical, then you could do alot worse than to read the book "My Big Toe" By Thomas Campbell or maybe a book by William Buhlman. They are cutting edge on the subject if you ask me and takes a Big picture perspective on things. Thanks again for taking time to discuss this very interesting subject, Moonshine.

[Dannon Oneironaut]

Well, I've had what I thought were OBEs while dreaming, and I've had WILDs. My conclusion was that OBEs are a kind of dream and that dreams are a kind of OBE. But then I had a spontaneous OBE that changed the whole thing. This WAS an OBE. The only way I can describe it is this: if you ask a woman if she had an orgasm and she says "I think so" you know that she never had one and she doesn't know what it is like. She thinks that she may have had one because she was feeling good and has an idea of what orgasms feel like, but she doesn't know that she never had an orgasm. So.... my experience left me confused, because what about my theory that I believed to be true? So now I believe that dreams and OBEs are very related, different effects of the same phenomenon. Like dreams are InnerBEs or IMindEs.